Question regarding the military arm of faiths

[Aphel]

Both Rofirein as well as Toran have a rather large army at their disposal (for example, Dezza mentioned 1800 members of the toranite forces in the war between Fiorez and the Deepening Dark - that's already about half a roman legion). Who is paying them? The churches (and thus - the faithful) or do the kingdoms give them money as well? How are they regulated, that means, what kind of rules in regards to numbers, recruitment and so forth are there? Were there any treaties in the past in that regard? To specify the areas a bit more, I am interested in how Hilm, Trelania and Brelin handle these things in regard to the church of the Golden and the Hand of Virtue as an example.

[Dorganath]

For clarity, Brelin doesn't really have as strong of a presence of a Toranite or Rofireinite presence as Trelania does (in the case of Toranites).  Brelin is actually kind of loose as a kingdom anyway, and if it was more organized, the leanings of the kingdom's leadership its primary influences aren't exactly friendly to Toran.

Where appropriate, religions that maintain a military wing do so on their own, and they primarily do so for the protection of their clergy, missions and the like. The churches themselves provide for these troops, not the kingdoms in which they operate. It is possible that the church gets subsidies from the kingdom in which they are operating, but not necessarily. Donations to the churches, and tithes where appropriate, are where they typically get their money.

When operating in or resident in a particular kingdom, they're subject to the laws and leadership of that kingdom.  Rofirein's presence in Co'rys (Fort Vehl) is much different than Toran's presence in Trelania.  Hilm isn't really a kingdom in the usual sense. It's a protectorate established by treaty and entrusted to a regent, essentially.  Presently, that regent is a Toranite, and thus, Hilm has a strong Toranite presence. This fits well with Hilm's mission and Toran's mission, for that matter. I'm over-simplifying, but generally these faiths don't have standing armies as such, though they can recruit from their faithful should a need arise.  They have no legal authority within a kingdom unless that kingdom grants it to them.

There really is no universal answer there.  Each church may have different relationships with each kingdom. It's likely that various treaties or other agreements have come and gone over the years as they have been needed.  Before the fall of Bloodstone, all of Mistone was ruled as a single kingdom, as was all of Dregar, Alindor (then Rilara under the rule of Milara), Belinara (Xantril under the rule of Xandrial) and so forth. After that, the kingdoms we know today were formed, some rooted in how things were in the past.  At one point, most of Layonara fell under a single Empire ruled out of Prantz.

As for their internal regulation and organization, that depends on the church, and much of this is written up to some degree or available ICly from those who know.

Lastly, keep in mind that our mechanical representation of one deity or the other in some point of the world doesn't always reflect the full picture of how present one church or the other may be in any given kingdom.  They just happen to be what we've represented in-game.

[Aphel]

I understand. Just trying to get a better grasp of how things work and why they are done how they are done, and what implication that has. Mostly, it's a game of numbers for me.

[Dorganath]

*nods*

Also note that the "armies" that are presently formed under Rofirein and Toran are not always present in their current form.  What they are now is largely a product of the war against the Green Dragon Cult. In a more general sense, the militant orders exist for specific purposes.  The Shining Hand is a group specializing in combating the Undead, for example, and their main battle training is against such foes, not against the living. Other military forces are tasked with protection or other specialized functions.

The point is that the numbers vary depending on circumstances, and any "armies" within the faiths are not typical armies in the traditional sense.

[Aphel]

Well, time and time again, the Shining Hand appears to be like "The most elite thing" in the toranite military. Again, not the point I wanted to inquire into.

Most of these people are conscripts, is that correct? So they are ... well, not that far away from militia status?

[Alatriel]

The Shining Hand is primarily a group of undead hunters.  However, fighting undead often involves hunting down and finding and dealing with the factions that have created the undead in the first place.  As such, yes, they are somewhat like a special forces.

[Dezza]

Keep in mind too that a force of 2500 Rofireintes mobilised for a war setting can me made up of mixed troops sometimes. So it might be 500 Knights, 1500 footsoldiers and 500 faithful followers with some martial experience. After the conflict many of them return home and perhaps the 500 Knights and 1500 footsoldiers return to their various chapters and the like across the world.

Which is essentially what Dorgs pointing out.

[Dremora]

The Crusades may be a point to draw comparisons from as well? The Templars and Hospitaliers were knightly orders involved, but the rest was made up of citizenry of the faith drawn from several countries. A large amount were also criminals etc looking for redemption. In the case of Rofirenites and Toranites. Knights would be unlikely to make up the bulk as pointed out, but would certainly be enough to form the mailed fist of the said army.
Commoners with combat experience and soldiers who have Toranite and Rofirenite beliefs may come under those banners to fight for their gods and people. So Toran for example would have people drawn from whereever there were shrines and the faith held. Huangjin to Llast. You would see everything from soldiers in the Llast garrison fighting alongside swordmasters from Huanjgin all collectively under the Order of the Longsword's control for example.

Have I got this more or less right (point im getting at is in tune with dezza's dont assume the bulk is militia level who have only limited combat experience and came with whatever weapons they owned, but a section of men present definently will be)?

[Dorganath]

That's a fairly good RL parallel, actually.

As a modern example, in the US on a national level, we have our active-duty military, which are the full-time soldiers, officers, etc. that make up our standing Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines.  There's also the reservists, who have their own day jobs most of the time and some regular obligations to the military. Reservists are not considered active-duty, but in time of need, they can be activated and called up for active duty.  At the state level, we have the National Guard, which is largely similar to the Reserves, except that they are organized on a state-by-state level and answer to state or federal needs.  Again, most of the members of the National Guard are part-timers who keep full-time civilian jobs. In times of need, they can be called up.  The most common need is providing aid and security for natural disasters such as hurricanes and things, but they can be called up for more martial conflicts as needed.

In the Layonaran setting, the citizen militia is an informal sort of designation, assumed to be any able-bodied person with training and/or capability.  They may have been former military in some form, or they may just be willing and able to help...or they could be conscripted. In the case of "armies" raised by churches, they tend to be volunteers, though some may volunteer to fight under the banner of Toran (for example) rather than wait around to be conscripted by the kingdom should a conflict arise...though in the end, they may end up falling under the command of the kingdom anyway, depending on the nature of the conflict.

[Aphel]

The Shining Hand is primarily a group of undead hunters.  However,  fighting undead often involves hunting down and finding and dealing with  the factions that have created the undead in the first place.  As such,  yes, they are somewhat like a special forces.

Well, they  do have a PrC for themselves and are a "special purpose division", and  that's about it. Since the training, practise and time required to hunt  undead, they lack in other aspects - you can't do two things at the same  time. Like training to seal your soul against the touch of the Undead  and learn about Military Tactics and Strategy, Small Units Tactics, Hand  to Hand Combat, Improvised Gear&Strategy and so on and so forth at  the same time. Or maybe they do, and the Order of the Longsword is  completely superflous - why have two organisations for the handful of  Paladins and fighters?

Keep  in mind too that a force of 2500 Rofireintes mobilised for a war  setting can me made up of mixed troops sometimes. So it might be 500  Knights, 1500 footsoldiers and 500 faithful followers with some martial  experience. After the conflict many of them return home and perhaps the  500 Knights and 1500 footsoldiers return to their various chapters and  the like across the world.

[sarcasm]And I am sure that I know in what shape most the "faithful followers" went, with their d4 hitdice...[/sarcasm]
What  does "some martial experience" detail? That's what I tried to get at, a  few posts above. I guess it implies a few month to a year or so of  military training and duty in the guard, militia and so on (the lower  echelon of what those "footsolders" usually do). It appears reasonable to assume that losses among them are to be expected to be much higher (less training and experience(!), low echelon gear and so forth - they don't call it "the bloody infantry" for nothing). With all issues like supplies and so forth considered, why not create a standing army, if there are only 500 that are volunteers/conscripts/members of the penal troops? Isn't the percentage much higher?

Dorg, you wrote:

The point is that the numbers vary depending on circumstances, and any  "armies" within the faiths are not typical armies in the traditional  sense.

Now you somehow lost me.
The armies of the faiths are not typical armies in a traditional sense, except, when they are, see your recent post?

[Alatriel]

Aphel,

There seems to be a specific answer that you are wanting, and even though your question has been answered a few times by a few different GMs now, you haven't gotten what you want.  

I'm not entirely sure what to do with your last response because it simply seems argumentative.  Could you please rephrase your question so that it is easier to understand?

Thank you

[miltonyorkcastle]

The armies of the faiths are not typical armies in a traditional sense, except, when they are, see your recent post?

Exactly. In other words, the 'armies' of any given deity exist when summoned, and cease to exist when they're not needed. When they exist, they function like 'traditional' armies. When they disband, they don't function as an army at all.

Toran has the only thing close to a 'traditional' standing army, if only because they actually have large training facilities and clusters of Toranites in close proximity.

Also, most kingdoms would take exception to a 'foreign' standing army within their realm, which is essentially what a church's standing army would be, since it would answer to the church before the king/queen.

[Aphel]

I would like to clearify, of course, but I am not entirely certain what  exactly you would like me to clearify specifically, Alatriel. I will  simply make a list of questions and hope that what needed specification  for you is among them.

Standing military/form of organisation?

I'm over-simplifying, but generally these faiths don't have standing  armies as such, though they can recruit from their faithful should a  need arise.  They have no legal authority within a kingdom unless that  kingdom grants it to them.

This clearifies for me the whole  issue with recruitment and form of organisation. I am certain such a  statement was somewhere else to be found on the forum as well - appears  to be kind of obvious, but I don't want to assume, hence I asked.

Following this:

The point is that the numbers vary depending on circumstances, and any  "armies" within the faiths are not typical armies in the traditional  sense.

I asked if these armies, if they are not typical  armies, have more the character of a militia and consist of conscripts.  Now that I looked up the rather vauge and broad definition of a milita, I  apologize for asking in the first place. Well, could have been that it  is different in how it is used here, that's all I can say to my defense.  The statement in regards to the Shining Hand was more an observation  from my side that if the military part of the Church of Toran comes up,  it's always the first thing mentioned as being somewhat of an elite  faction. Which does not mean that the Order of the Longsword is  forgotten, and that it is the other part of the two factions, just that  it is not mentioned as often.

Keep in mind too that a force of 2500 Rofireintes mobilised for a war  setting can me made up of mixed troops sometimes. So it might be 500  Knights, 1500 footsoldiers and 500 faithful followers with some martial  experience. After the conflict many of them return home and perhaps the  500 Knights and 1500 footsoldiers return to their various chapters and  the like across the world.
 
Which is essentially what Dorgs pointing out.

This statement  more or less confused me, since, at that point, the 500 knights and 1500  footsoldiers appeared to address the more "standing" army side of the  Church Militia concept, possibly implying regular training together and  remaining in units (smaller units, maybe, but still units) once the  force is disbanded, while the 500 followers adressed the "civilian with a  weapon and some training" aspect. Thus, the reserve of a standing army  that is disguised into smaller units in various parts of the world (with  restrictions from logistics and travel times in war, supposedly).

Dorganath  continued to support this by his last post, drawing parallels between  RL military and the chruch military of Layonara, which confuses me since  he said the opposite in the beginning, or so it seemed, and thus I  pointed it out and asked for clearification. From what I know and  understand now, they are a scaled down version of more or less the same  organisation principles of normal, historical armies, just that the  official in-game law part is lots more complicated (or equally as  complicated).

From Dezza I wanted to know what "some martial  training" meant, to be more percise now, what it means (on average) for  the Toranite volunteers. Also, I wanted to know why one relies on  volunteers, if one has a hidden standing army anyway among other reasons  that appeared to me as opposing the volunteer unitss (see statements  above).

This whole part:

Quote:
 

The  Shining Hand is primarily a group of undead hunters.  However,   fighting undead often involves hunting down and finding and dealing with   the factions that have created the undead in the first place.  As  such,  yes, they are somewhat like a special forces.

Well,  they  do have a PrC for themselves and are a "special purpose  division", and  that's about it. Since the training, practise and time  required to hunt  undead, they lack in other aspects - you can't do two  things at the same  time. Like training to seal your soul against the  touch of the Undead  and learn about Military Tactics and Strategy,  Small Units Tactics, Hand  to Hand Combat, Improvised Gear&Strategy  and so on and so forth at  the same time. Or maybe they do, and the  Order of the Longsword is  completely superflous - why have two  organisations for the handful of  Paladins and fighters?

was just meant to say "yes, they are special forces", and no "somewhat" in there for sure. The Shining Hand is  a special forces - but so is the Order of the Longsword. They deal with  different issues, from what I can see, their training is different from  what I think they are (assumption there). The last question was meant  not to be taken seriously or as a question and more of a jibe against  the whole "special forces" discussion and issue that the Shining Hand  comes up more often than the Order of the Longsword in conversations and  is, from my experience and personal perspective, more often mentioned.  

Does this clearify things for you, Alatriel? Or do you wish to  imply that I have no point in asking these questions here and should  better do it in-game, on IRC or take my questions to LORE - these are  prefectly fine points to make, in my opinion. I do admit that my  questions are often unclear, or appear unclear, and I have no troubles  in stating my question twice or trice - or even being told that it could  be found somewhere else.


--
Tl;dr version:

The armies of the faiths are not typical armies in a traditional sense, except, when they are, see your recent post?

Exactly. In other words, the  'armies' of any given deity exist when summoned, and cease to exist when  they're not needed. When they exist, they function like 'traditional'  armies. When they disband, they don't function as an army at all.
 
Toran has the only thing close to a 'traditional' standing army, if only  because they actually have large training facilities and clusters of  Toranites in close proximity.
 
Also, most kingdoms would take exception to a 'foreign' standing army  within their realm, which is essentially what a church's standing army  would be, since it would answer to the church before the king/queen.

Thanks. For the rest, training and such, I'll see about it in-game. Maybe. It's something to look into, if it's worth the time and hassle on the other hand...
Anyway, thank you all for your replies and answers.

[Alatriel]

Okay, to clarify the part about the Order of the Longsword and the Shining Hand.

First of all, the Order of the Longsword is made up of paladins.  This does not include any other volunteer faithful laypersons who may join in during times of need to bolster the armies such as they did against the Green Dragon Cult.  In times of war, they see it as their personal duty to their faith to call into action.  

When Loran Kor (head of the Toran church, also called the Auscultare) met with Daniella Stormhaven before the last big push of the Dragon Cult War, they decided that it was time for the church to take action against the evil of the Green Dragon Cult, and therefore, Loran Kor named Daniella Stormhaven and Lance Stargazer as commanders of the combined military forces of all of Toran's armies.  He then sent out a call to all of the churches and shrines that Toran's church was declaring war on the Green Dragon Cult and the nation of Kuhl as it currently stands.  At present, Daniella remains the Commander of all of Toran's independent forces in Belinara, due to her location currently, and Lance has withdrawn to be Commander of Hilm's forces.  

(All of this I could tell you in game so that William would know it as well, but he would have to ask)

When the fighting diminished, many who were still left alive decided to go back to their homes and families until called again.  Some decided to stay on and continue fighting.  

Now, as for the Shining Hand:  Per Lore: Toran Sects

Order of the Shining Hand
Formerly called the Order of the Unliving Hunters, this small sect within the church was also a part of the judiciary before the schism. The order is made up of paladins; at last count 301 men and women. The tie that binds this group is devotion. While every order boasts piety, the Shining Hand uses their faith as their primary weapon when hunting and dispatching unliving. In addition, many of the duties of the justicers that the Order of the Longsword has not picked up, have fallen to the Shining Hand.

The Justicers have been disbanded, but their duties were more than simply fighting undead.  So, as per lore, the Order of the Shining Hand -does- have other duties besides just fighting the unliving because it's what needs to be done.  Because of their hardened outlook because of facing so much evil on such a constant basis, they are often more, I suppose "prepared" would be the appropriate term, to deal with some of the tougher tasks that we may consider as being "special forces" tasks, sort of like Navy Seals or Green Berets in a US military example.

Hope that helps.

~Alatriel

[Dorganath]

I'm sorry, but I just don't have time to go point by point for your clarity.  I believe I have said what I meant pretty succinctly above, and if you take all of it, not just one part, you will have your answer, even if it's not the answer you hoped for.

In particular, read my last post again but do not forget about the last paragraph, the one that starts with "In the Layonaran setting...".  This is important.  My description of the RL US Military was a loose parallel, and there are things that certainly do not apply to Layonara.

The key factor that seems to be missed is that when these "armies" of a deity are not needed any longer, they are generally disbanded.  The Shining Hand is not an army, and neither is the Order of the Longsword.  The latter is not redundant just because you assume the former contains all the training of the latter plus additional training.  They are each separate orders or sects of Toran, and they each serve a different purpose.  They are specialized groups within the greater organization...but they are not armies in the traditional sense.

To extend Alatriel's reference, the existence of the Navy SEALs does not negate the purpose of the Green Berets.  They're similar, but serve different purposes with different training (where it matters) and a different core mission.

Anyway, if you have specific questions about this that aren't being answered, please ask them succinctly. Quoting parts of statements and mixing them with other partial quotes confuses the issue.