The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: Nehetsrev on July 09, 2010, 10:06:05 am
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Firstly, let me state that since I'm posting here in the "Ask A Gamemaster" section it means I'm seeking only answers and input from those members of the community who are in fact active Gamemasters.
Secondly, I'd like to make it clear I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, nor get anyone in trouble, nor ask for a ret-con of any events that have already occurred in-game. I am simply seeking statements to clarify how a certain ability should be used and handled for future reference, to help better the community by hopefully eliminating some potential misunderstandings. I will use a specific recent in-game occurance as an example, but not to point fingers or anything like that.
Now to address the heart of the matter. I'll start by explaining a recent in-game situation. On a quest there was a rather evil-acting child NPC who was the sole survivor of a camp of presumeably evil persons. In the group of PC's was a paladin, as well as a Nuetral Evil character, and of course a number of various other characters. The paladin at one point questioned via Tell the intent the Nuetral Evil character had toward the presumeably evil NPC child when the NE PC was offering to 'find the child a home'. This was explained to be a use of the paladin ability to Sense Evil.
Admittedly, I should have answered the Tell with a simple "yes" or "no" answer at that point, but felt I wanted to explain my character's intent somewhat instead. So, when asked if my PC's intent was evil I answered via Tell something along the lines of, "not unless you count wanting to sell the child into slavery as being evil." Taken out of the context of the PC's motivations behind such thoughts most would agree that's definitely an evil intent. I intended to explain further that the NE PC reasoned the child would be given a home, and taught discipline, respect and humility (qualities the child aparently lacked entirely) and have his most basic needs cared for, with the additional motive that the NE PC would make some good True from the transaction herself. I don't recall if I had the opportunity to follow up the first tell with that explaination though as the quest moved on and my focus became more centered on what was going on. Anyway, I feel in the eyes of the NE PC the intent would not have been thought of as evil and my simple answer should have been "no".
I learned from a conversation with the paladin's player a few days later that the paladin no longer wished anything to do with my NE PC because of the evil she sensed on the quest. Fair enough, in my opinion, logical RP extention of the situation. However, what surprised me was that the other played had relayed my response to the DM to ask for a ruling, and the DM ruled the intent was evil without taking a moment to confirm directly with me the motivations of my character. I suggested to the paladin's player that for future Sense Evil checks they might go to the DM as a mediary and have the DM contact the other players of characters whose intents are being questioned and have the answers relayed that way. Another surprise, the paladin's player informed me they had been told by the DM that players should ask other players directly (as had been done) rather than go through the DM.
In summary, I guess I'm trying to say that it makes more sense to me for such abilities to be routed through the DM (in situations where DM's are available) for the following reasons:
1) It might help to avoid the feeling that "because a player knows my PC is of Evil alignment they're only using their paladin ability on my PC." Sort of an 'alignment profiling' metagaming effect.
2) The DM gains insight on the thoughts and motivations of characters which would be useful in determining the awarding of alignment points, and in support of alignment based judgements for character development as a whole.
Lastly, when I looked up the Paladin class in LORE, there is no mention of the Paladin Sense Evil ability. I would suggest a LORE page be added to explain the proper use of the ability and its extents and limitations.
Some other questions about the ability that come to mind which might need to be explained on such a LORE page:
Is the Sense Evil ability targeted, meaning useable on specific individuals one at a time? Or, is it a ranged area of effect, meaning the paladin senses Evil (or not) from all persons within a certain range, leaving no one's intents un-checked within that range?
Must the ability be focused upon or 'activated'? Or, is it automatic, in effect at all times?
Is the ability limitted to sensing only the present intent of an individual, meaning it only gives feedback on the target(s) current state of mind? Or, is it based on the overall alignment of the target(s), meaning that an evil character is detected as such, regardless if their current intents are not evil?
How is the alignment of an intent determined to be good or evil? Is it based on the actual result that acting on the intent would have, rather than the reasoning or justification behind the act? Is it based on severity of ill-will, meaning a character might intend only to cuss at another person (an evil act, even though it has little meaningful effect, does not cause physical harm) and thus would return a 'positive' result on the Sense Evil check? Or must the target intend actual physical harm to someone?
If the ability to Sense Evil is automatic, always active, and based on present intent wouldn't the paladin sense evil from almost every PC and NPC they encounter at some point?
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OK well for starters, a Paladin's Detect Evil ability is not an NWN thing, but a d20/D&D thing, which probably explains its absence from LORE. As such, it's an RP power that takes some judgment, discretion and at times adjudication to use properly.
For the purposes of further discussion, I think it's important to refer to this: Detect Evil :: d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectevil.htm)
That's effectively what a Paladin can do, but a Paladin can do so at will, not as a spell.
As you can read, the ability detects the presence of evil and eventually the source of that evil if the concentration upon it continues.
It does not, however, detect intent. It does not make a paladin psychic or empathic in any way.
So in your example above, the NE character would be detected as evil by a paladin probably somewhat clearly (thought it might depend on what other evil was nearby), but the intentions behind that NE character's words or actions would not be known.
Also, I would say that the ability is triggered, not persistent. Sure, a paladin could just continually try to detect evil, but that would take the paladin's attention away from other things...like fighting.
And yes, this ability may well mean that evil could potentially be seen everywhere (in people), anywhere from a glimmer to a beacon, depending.
To respond about routing... Since the ability has nothing to do with intent or motivation, there's not much to be gained by going directly to a player, other than just asking "Hey, my paladin is detecting evil. Your character is evil, right?" to which that player should answer truthfully. In general, though, it would make better sense to ask a GM (if present) who could then say, "That NPC back in the corner....and oh...Bob, standing right behind you..."
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Okay, now I have a question- I was told that in Layonara, Paladins don't have the normal ability of detect evil, but instead had a detect evil intent.... I don't really care which one it is (and no, the below post was not in regards to me) but if there is a clarification that would be great! (considering my paladin pretty much detects everyone- yes everyone, even good guys, even people in her own church, even children.)
Some DM's use it as a "detect evil" and some as an intent thing... clarification would be fantabulous!
Thanks
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I'm not sure who told you that, and it's not really important.
Given what I linked and given that telepathy, psychic abilities and the like aren't available to PCs and 99.9999999% of anything you might encounter, detecting intent is akin to mind reading. Never mind the fact that it's rather open to interpretation.
In the example above, the intent was to teach a problem child discipline (good), respect for authority (good), see to his basic needs (good) and so forth. The means was through slavery (generally seen as evil, but not universally) and there was the opportunity for profit in doing so (self-serving, so evil by common definition, if a bit "evil light"). So taken overall, the entire intent might come out to a frustrating "neutral". To be able to pick out one part of the intent from another again borders on mind-reading and is subjective to the observer.
Detecting the presence of evil, on the other hand, is not subjective. It's core to a being or to the residuals left by that being (the "lingering aura" effect). It is or it is not, and if it is, there is a magnitude of evilness.
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In my opinion. If it is not in LORE, then it is not a proper skill. There fore their are no rules on it's use. It is up to the individual GMs if they allow it and how it would work.
When I'm doing a quest and someone tries to sense evil. I tell them they feel nothing out of the ordinary, unless I think sensing evil will help move things along. If they ever do sense evil it is played more as a hunch or an uneasy feeling.
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In all honesty, I can't remember who told me to begin with, and no, it really doesn't matter, but that makes things a lot easier. Thanks!
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As a side note, there are ways for an evil character to hide their nature from the "detect evil" ability. And yes, those ways involve magic.
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My understanding of it, was to limit it to quests with GM permission only, but there's never been a really definitive answer from the team. Considering there are explanations for the shadowdancer abilities somewhere, perhaps the paladin's detect evil should have some sort of offical guideline as well.
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As a side note, there are ways for an evil character to hide their nature from the "detect evil" ability. And yes, those ways involve magic.
If two PCs meet and there is no GM around how can a evil PC mechanically hide its evil aura from a paladin's mechanical detect evil ability?
OK forget that LOL I was just told that Paladins dont have a mechanical way to do that. So between PCs with no GM around a pally can say "hey I detect evil on you" and the evil PC can say "I have a spell cast on me that masks my aura".
NOTE: The D&D 3.5 edition 3rd level clerical spell Undetectable Alignment (Conceals alignment for 24 hours) would do the trick. I am sure that those evil folks aligned with Corath can have that cast on them almost every day :P
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NOTE: The D&D 3.5 edition 3rd level clerical spell Undetectable Alignment (Conceals alignment for 24 hours) would do the trick. I am sure that those evil folks aligned with Corath can have that cast on them almost every day :P
That assumes they have access to a cleric every day. Remember that actual travel times are much longer than what the game actually represents. A Corathite who's in Leringard can't just make a quick run to the Mistone temple, get the spell cast and be good for the rest of the RL day.
Also, one game day passes in about 1.6 hours in real-time. ;)
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OK well for starters, a Paladin's Detect Evil ability is not an NWN thing, but a d20/D&D thing, which probably explains its absence from LORE.
Correct. Don't want to fill up LORE with d20 things if we can avoid it.
Given what I linked and given that telepathy, psychic abilities and the like aren't available to PCs and 99.9999999% of anything you might encounter, detecting intent is akin to mind reading.
And to tie in to this, Telepathy is not allowed and this is on LORE LORE: Player Rules (http://lore.layonara.com/Player%20Rules#15)
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I've always handled it by saying the paladin can concentrate on a certain direction and within a limited range may be able to sense the presence of evil if the subject would have a certain aura to it. Its not an automatic thing it must be directly attempted to use.
I also consider the strength of the perception as being linked to whether the target wishes harm or has distinct evil thoughts or intentions. Otherwise its just a case of yes you feel the presence of evil from the target but nothing that triggers any alarm bells.
Consider if a Paladin did it in the average street of a town, they are going to always pick up evilness from around them but the intensity of that detection comes down to what sort of evil those people are intending. Or alternatively the average vampire masquerading as a local citizen might come undone if the Paladin by luck was focusing on the street at the moment the vampire walked across his or her field of vision. :)
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The paladin has the smite evil ability but I've found without the detect evil I don't know if I can use it on an enemy. Could it be added as a spell-like ability and on your screen only enemies with an evil alignment would glow red for a moment or something along those lines.
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Sense evil generally is something that you can do only with a GM present. It can be rp'd with npc's such as when you're out killing orcs, bugbears, giants, goblins, etc. in order to add to the rp. It's not a spell-like ability, and it doesn't work with mechanics of hostile vs. non-hostile. A Lucindite would see a Toranite as an enemy, but most likely neither of them would be evil. Also, just because something is evil doesn't mean that it gives you a free pass to kill them. Evil people who have evil hearts but are following all of the rules of society, for example, if you just went and attacked them because you saw them highlighted as hostile, would mean that you had just committed murder. Not everything is represented by mechanics. ;)
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Notwithstanding, the point still remains: If Smite Evil only works on Evil creatures, and Paladins have a Detect Evil ability, shouldn't they be able to use Detect Evil to determine which creatures the Smite Evil ability will smite?
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Well.. Think that the problem is that NWN doesn't have the Detect evil spell that the table top game has. Its my understanding that the paladin supernatural ability to detect evil works as that spell ( 1rst level cleric spell ). So since the spell was not seen needed to be integrated into the system then that is why they don't actually added the supernatural ability to the Paladin mechanical class.
Now returning to the specific layo example, We must remember that Layonara its not a standard D&D setting even if NWN is still based on it and hence things work diferently. I must say that yes it was a bit hard to understand at first , and yes at times sound a bit ilogical , we have a system to work with that skill that Paladins have. and that system is how it works for layonara. Its a tool we as players have for Gm events and to develop our characters over quests.
My two trues.
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The problem is that the implemented [LORE]Paladin[/LORE] class does not have a Detect Evil ability, but that we are roleplaying that it does.
Then someone is saying (quite reasonably) that, if the Paladin does have a Detect Evil ability, that they should be able to... detect evil.
The real question is, why does Detect Evil need to be GM adjudicated?
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So that schneaky evil can be schneaky.
In all honesty, I am not sure. It could be so that both evil npcs as well as evil pcs aren't hounded and hunted all over the place by the dynamic Rofis or Toranites. Maybe it would be to hard to implement, even - but I doubt that. I guess it is just a balance of sorts while the GM is not around, and when the GM is around, that GM can take care nothing gets too bad out of control.
I am not sure if it would be a mechanical problem. All you would need is a script that is attached to an item that has a limited amount of usages per day and returns the feeling about the creature or character per chat-response (like the thirst and hunger skript). At least that how I would try to code it (and give up after a while).
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based on my understanding, it wouldn't matter if a pc could detect evil in a another pc or npc - they'd have be doing something, i.e. attacking, thieving, defacing public property, jaywalking - before said Detect Evil pc could do anything about it, especially in the case of Rofis and Toranites, and unless a gm is present to run/describe the npc's actions...it ain't happening. WWE (Walking While Evil) isn't a crime.
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The real question is, why does Detect Evil need to be GM adjudicated?
In this case, it needs to be adjudicated when dealing between PC's. In the case of npc's that are in the module anyways, I don't see any reason why someone can't police themselves, but since dealing with other PC's is a more sensitive issue leading to questions and complaints of metagaming, it's better to have a GM there. Granted, there may be times when the other PC offers up the information, but it's better to be safe than sorry.
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There's a different between knowing about something and doing something with this knowledge. Detect evil, as I understand it, just gives a hunch - maybe the paladin in question does something about it directly, maybe indirectly.
I disagree with you, there is nearly always a reason for being evil, be that because the person commited or commits crimes (recently or not), follows a evil deity, is a vampire/dark elf/whatever - it does matter little if the evil person walks, crawls or whatever mode of locomotion she or he prefers. Evil is evil (unless the alignment is only of mechanical nature - e.g. switching from one alignment to another etc)
It does however create save havens for evil PCs. Granted, there are save havens for good PCs as well: sudden murders or abductions are rare, as far as I know.
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/dark elf/whatever
*coughs* if that was tru for all cases, Ty would have all the layonara paladins constantly looking to kill her ;)
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Aphel I think you just insulted the alot of the A'zzatan church.
Back to topic though, why not simply scrap this ability that paladins are capable of 'detecting' evil when just about everybody has some 'evil' in them. Just because NWN's mechanics have rigidly divded everything into neat blocks doesn't mean that every type of evil should be detected just like that. The smite evil ability is when the paladin presumably calls upon his faith and purity to bless his weapon and strike his foe. Note you can use that ability on any creature, evil or no but will only actually work on evil creatures.
Its therefore easier if it used in combat against a paladin's enemies if the paladin suspects they are truly evil in their core. He cannot mind read as stated and could be opposing any sort of foe for any sort of reason. Use the attack and see whether or not your purity and holiness actually does cause harm to whatever you are attacking. Basically, use it when you think your foe is evil (depending on faith).
Paladins are not clerics, plain and simple; they are holy warriors, not psychics. The clerics commune directly with their gods and im fairly sure paladins do not. Hence why they tend to obey the priesthood, leave the ability of 'detection' with the clerics for figuring out divine enemies and let the paladin players use their instinct rather than a rather lame tell like: "Hey im a paladin, are you evil?". It canonly encourage more teamplay between the classes and make things a little more interesting. If something is clearly acting evil or you as the player have a bad feeling about a character, then RP it. Don't assume you will always be right.
Thats my two cents on the whole Paladin detection ability concept; that said maybe such an ability could be given to Divine Champion classes since they are a cut above paladins but thats another discussion.
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Paladins are not clerics, plain and simple; they are holy warriors, not psychics. The clerics commune directly with their gods and im fairly sure paladins do not.
Just wanted to address this first - this is absolutely untrue. Paladins are warriors in the service of their gods, and commune as directly with their deities as clerics do. Because of their twin focus on faith and martial prowess, they don't generally develop quite as deep a connection (as reflected by their more limited spells), but a paladin of Toran is every bit as qualified to lead a Toranite service as a cleric.
The point I was going to get at is that generally (in D&D, if not in NWN), spells and abilities have balancing abilities. Detect Evil is an at-will ability for Paladins in D&D, but there are spells like Undetectable Alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm) which mask alignments. (Or a thin sheet of lead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html).) If a similar ability were implemented in Layo, the counters would also have to be implemented.
This isn't to say it couldn't be done, but, as always, to demonstrate that it wouldn't be a simple, isolated change.
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Aphel I think you just insulted the alot of the A'zzatan church.
I want to stress something here too, that seems to be forgotten all too often. Az'attan dark elves are a minority. The overwhelming populations of dark elves are evil, corrupt monstrosities that would indeed be a kill-on-sight or run like crazy for your life. In fact, most Az'attans that are dark elves would still face problems such as these because of their appearance. They would take great measures to show that they were indeed repented followers of Az'atta, however that wouldn't always convince the general public anyways. Also, I don't think calling dark elves evil would in fact insult the Az'attan church. The reason they believe as they do is because they are aware of their evil ways, they are remorseful of it. It doesn't and can't change what they have done in the past, but they strive to be better for the rest of their lives. It's very possible that many of them do believe they are still evil, they are just fighting against their nature.
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Paladins are not clerics, plain and simple; they are holy warriors, not psychics. The clerics commune directly with their gods and im fairly sure paladins do not. Hence why they tend to obey the priesthood, leave the ability of 'detection' with the clerics for figuring out divine enemies and let the paladin players use their instinct rather than a rather lame tell like: "Hey im a paladin, are you evil?". It canonly encourage more teamplay between the classes and make things a little more interesting. If something is clearly acting evil or you as the player have a bad feeling about a character, then RP it. Don't assume you will always be right.
Thats my two cents on the whole Paladin detection ability concept; that said maybe such an ability could be given to Divine Champion classes since they are a cut above paladins but thats another discussion.
I must say I disagree completely with this statement :)
Clerics are called to serve their god and do so in a very straightforward manner gaining spells and blessings to use for the faithful. Some clerics are very pious in regard to the Faith others are less so and many vary in their personal dedication (but not to the point of losing spells).
Paladins and Divine Champions however are called to be all that they can be, the pinnacle of their dedication to the god, the one uncorruptable living example of what it means to serve their God.
Clerics are held to high standards yes, but Paladins and divine champions are held to such high principles that few if any achieve such a divine state of being in their diety's eyes.
Clerics are the workhorses of the faith while Paladins and Divine champions are the standard to which all members of the faith are measured against.
Try living up to that reputation...
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Paladins and Divine Champions however are called to be all that they can be, the pinnacle of their dedication to the god, the one uncorruptable living example of what it means to serve their God.
Clerics are held to high standards yes, but Paladins and divine champions are held to such high principles that few if any achieve such a divine state of being in their diety's eyes.
Clerics are the workhorses of the faith while Paladins and Divine champions are the standard to which all members of the faith are measured against.
I would not say that Paladins and Champions are the standard the clergy is measured against, I would say that they are above it in a sense. Sure, a powerful cleric can use mighty prayers and litanies to perform a lot of things that are miracles, be it offensive or defensive. But a paladin is embodying the deity to a point where he or she know no more fear and is the most efficient warrior a church can have. Paladins and Champions live up to an entirely different standard than regular clergy to the point where they do things on a regular basis that would make a cleric withdraw (might this be a more fanatic streak with the personality or not). While clergy is expected to be what all regular members of the belief are measured against, paladins are maybe just looked up to as the example - they are something different. Their belief put them past fear and their combat training is excellent. This is hardly to compare to clergy who also does fight, but not to this extend. Depending on the church, they might be the ultimate measurement that all are measured against (especially in very militant churches, e.g.) or not (e.g. Aeridin) - that would be speculation on my part.
Try living up to that reputation...
Get up. Do training from hell. Go slay the big bad. Save the kitten. Teach the children to be good people. Bake cookies with grandmother. Drive back the big bad that comes to get grandma's cookies (and the children and the kitten) at dusk. Read and or write religious parchments. Bed. Night training. Go hunt the big bad because you can't sleep. Bed. Get up. Repeat. ;)
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And a side question, if paladins are just martial clerics (as in more combat and less variety in the prayer department which is basically their mechanical difference), which is what it read as to me.. why not just give the widgit to detect diety alignements to the paladins as well. If they commune with their gods then how come the clerics can detect diety alignments in others and paladins can't, surely they're god would warn them that they are in the company of their diety's enemy.. something a paladin should avoid at all costs no? Also why do some churches in the RP standing order paladins to obey the clerics under most circumstances (Toranites for example)? Surely there would be no difference between the two if the Paladins ad clerics were as similar as has been described.
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I would not say that Paladins and Champions are the standard the clergy is measured against, I would say that they are above it in a sense.
Within the lore of Layonara, within the NPC population of Layonara, Paladins and Champions -are- the standard the clergy are measured against. They are the standard that all devout followers are measured against. They may -seem- above the standard to some (and indeed probably many) but they are the goal (standard) of all true believers. Not all faiths allow for Champions or Paladins in their ranks mechanically, but there are still members of the clergy who exemplify the ideal all mortals strive to emulate in each faith.
~row
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Hm, you know... the way I've always thought of it was:
Paladins and champions... and unholy Champions = Knights Templar (Holy warriors in service to there god. The right hand of there god as it were.)
Clerics = Priest and/or Bishops (The voice of there god... in a way. Those of greater power and rank holding a higher authority of course.)
Note in many christian movies featuring Templars there always answering to the priests and/or bishops... though above all the Pope. Highest ranking member of the Clergy.
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Note in many christian movies featuring Templars there always answering to the priests and/or bishops... though above all the Pope. Highest ranking member of the Clergy.
Toranites, Corathites et al are not structured like Christian Church(s). We do not tend to stray into the RL comparisons here because they, largely, do not work. Each of these Churches has their own structure as to where and how the clergy/Champions/paladins stand in official rankings. It is likely best to leave RL comparisons such as these behind and delve into what is on LORE to understand hierarchy and faith structure.
~row
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Lacking a mechanical defense against alignment detection, I suggest that the spell "Protection from Good" might be a suitable substitute for undetectable alignment. It has very little use otherwise, save for PVP or a few quest NPCs. May as well give it an RP use.
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Toranites, Corathites et al are not structured like Christian Church(s). We do not tend to stray into the RL comparisons here because they, largely, do not work. Each of these Churches has their own structure as to where and how the clergy/Champions/paladins stand in official rankings. It is likely best to leave RL comparisons such as these behind and delve into what is on LORE to understand hierarchy and faith structure.
~row
Wasn't really comparing RL religions to Layo's.
Though... combine some of Layo's and you might have a close representation of some. Toren, Rafi and Aeridin together almost form the Christian faith. Especially Aeridin I think... or atleast his "Thou Shalt Not Kill" sorta thinking. For some reason I've always liked that commandment... atleast in RL... IGs on the other hand... I massacre. :)
Anyways, was mostly comparing Paladin and Clerics to RL in the sense that Cleric [[Be then lowly priests or high ranking Arch Bishops... or what ever religious title you wanna call them. Every religion has there own set of titles.]] are often seen as the voice of there god. One of many holy [[or unholy]] vessels from witch there will is channeled through. [[Hints the clerics wide array of powers.]] Paladins [[Holly warriors, Crusaders]] Are mostly those of soldiers and knights in service to there god. [[Again, many religions though maybe not all have at least one of these.]] By there shier faith and dedication to there god and with there gods blessings [[bestowed upon them by high ranking clergy... atleast in RL anyways]] they possess there special abilities. There spells on the other hand are granted much like the Cleric as in they too become the voice/vessel of there god. [[About a few months or years time equivalent to reaching level 4 Paladin]] Though none become as great as the highest ranking members of the gods clergy. As mentioned earlier they are the channel there gods will. Giving there holy warriors [[or unholy champions]] orders as depicted or at least interpreted through them.
[[Whew... that was alot... and heres a bit more. :p]] With Paladin always being in the service to good gods/deities they are granted by there god [[or even after many years of hunting and slaying evil they are able to sense it... in a way. Hm, though... with Unholy Champions being the only evil paladins [[as it were]] perhaps they should have a... Detect Good? Then again... how difficult can it be to tell if someone is good? ;)
*An Unholy Champion wanders a small town in disguise and sees a man helping out a group of people. Feigning difficulty with something and asking him for help the Unholy Champion lures the man into a dark ally... and smites him* Hah! Thats what you get for all your goodness... Death!
//Heh, sorry, had to add last part. :p
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Paladins and champions... (Holy warriors in service to there god. The right hand of there god as it were.)
Clerics = Priest and/or Bishops (The voice of there god... in a way. Those of greater power and rank holding a higher authority of course.)
This is somewhat close to what I was told by ed once a while back.
The paladin are indeed the holy warriors of a god they do what others wouldn't be able to do and are most of the time in charge of any martial aspect of one church, either it be defense of the church or holy wars. That being said on the battle field the Paladin would still listen to the council of a cleric on matters of the faith, but the cleric would refer to the Paladin for martial aspect, and follow orders in that manner (as long as the order is not against the code of the faith of course) on the battle field.
The clerics are the voice of the gods, and keeper of the words. They tend to the matter of the faith and the church and in such are responsible for those affair that even a paladin would not entrench on, see previous paragraph about the paladin listening to the council of the cleric for the matters of faith. That is probably why in both the rofie and Tory lore you see more ranks held by the clergy in importance of the church structure.
Well Ed said it in fewer words, but I think this still holds the essence of what he had told me. Also to note that it may be more inline with what the MMO would be, but unless stated other wise I feel it would fit well with this incarnation of the game.
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Anybody feel like addressing my previous question?
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Well, as HellBlazer and I have mentioned the Paladin would consult the cleric on maters of the faith. In terms of "detect diety alignment" They would likely have to ask a cleric of there own faith how they feel about the specific person and judging from there reply the paladin can determine wither they worship evil or not.
Possibly even go into a little debate over it.
The Paladin senses evil from the person but the cleric senses a friendly deity.
Ex: Toranite Paladin and cleric judging a lawful evil Rofi. :p
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Again, the paladin would also probably sense evil from every one near him. Just on a different level, and while they debate (the pally and cleric) about what they perception they each get from their deity, the so call person might have the time to do what they were sent to do :p
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I still don't see a reason as to why a god would not warn his/her/its paladins of being in the presence of their enemy faiths but he would alert a cleric. My suggestion is to give the diety alignment check to both classes. Not asking for the installation of a detect evil or who should have it because imo if both commune with their diety and the main fundamental difference is prayers over combat and vice versa. The god in question (presuming he actually has an intelligence) would give both classes the ability to sense enemy faith. Detect evil is a more slippery slope to me and goes into the realm of metagaming/telepathy etc.
Granted this suggestion is slightly off the topic but as far as my opinion goes for detect evil, well its just above :)
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I'd say the reason the only the cleric can detect diety alignment is the fact that they pray to there god more so then Champions or even Paladins and are thus more intone with there god.
A paladin is at most a defender of there faith. As to are the champions... more or less.
As for Detect Evil. I've already given my thoughts on how I think it could be done. With the paladins many long years of hunting and slaying evil they would have a sorta... intuitive sense of who might be evil. Note that then it wouldn't really be for a low level paladin as they have not traveled far and long enough to know what is truly evil. After all... just cause you dress in black doesn't necessarily mean you worship death or anything.
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Mostly anyone can detect evil just not as good as paladins.
Are they wearing a hood ? is it raining? Job done ;)
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Are they wearing a hood ? is it raining? Job done ;)
Not necessarily. Might be an az'attanite... or someone who likes wearing a hoody... or maybe its just really sunny out. :\
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Also, as for my example of non-evil people wearing black?
Johnny Cash - Man in Black - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXRmJyIyJbM)
Kinda think he says it best. :)
BTW, sorry if posting such links here is against the rules or anything.
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What I DO love to see is the cleric casting Divine Relation (sorry, getting in touch with their god or whatever since they are not actually casting that) on a dark elf and getting a neutral reading.
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The way it seems, I dont think thats true drako, clerics and paladins probably equally pray as much (daily) and therefore their should'nt be any difference.
As for hoods, hoping thats a joke lol. Mages wear them for buffs but RP as circlets sometimes; ive seen other characters wear hoods when its not raining. Just as often as I see people sitting outside in the rain in whatever going "its just water". Oh please if your out in torrential rainand getting soaked through or your armors getting wet and you dont own a house nearby that has a change of clothes... lolololol. Yeah "just water". Don't breathe too much into the hood thing. Now if you see an armed man in black with a hood and face mask who just oozes sinister.. yeah, probably evil (though my dark elf was TN so.. wrong again :P).
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Few comments...which should not be construed as arguments for or against the idea...
There is no "Sense/Check Deity Alignment" or anything of the sort. Clerics cannot sense the alignment of another person's deity. They can only ask their own deity to give them the deity's opinion of another person's deity. The answer comes in the form of a feeling that translates to one of allied, friendly, neutral, unfriendly or enemy. That's the extent of it. A cleric cannot know which deity it is, and once more, the cleric cannot know the alignment of another person's deity.
More generally speaking, alignments are OOC information, not IC. "Detect Evil" is sort of a hybrid of an IC concept and an OOC label, but that could spin into another topic. I just want to reinforce the idea that no cleric is detecting the alignment of another person's deity.
Mechanically speaking, it isn't a "widget" that allows clerics to detect the deity relation between themselves and another person. Mechanically, it's a 0-level cantrip/spell. Clerics get that at level 1. In an IC sense, it's more of a prayer or asking one's deity for his/her opinion, which is not delivered in words so much as a feeling, as I said. Speaking mechanically again, Paladins don't get cantrips until level 4.
Johnny Cash spent time in prison. OK, it was for drug-related reasons, but still...
Carry on.