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Author Topic: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil  (Read 2268 times)

Aphel

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2012, 09:00:02 am »
There's a different between knowing about something and doing something with this knowledge. Detect evil, as I understand it, just gives a hunch - maybe the paladin in question does something about it directly, maybe indirectly.

I disagree with you, there is nearly always a reason for being evil, be that because the person commited or commits crimes (recently or not), follows a evil deity, is a vampire/dark elf/whatever - it does matter little if the evil person walks, crawls or whatever mode of locomotion she or he prefers. Evil is evil (unless the alignment is only of mechanical nature - e.g. switching from one alignment to another etc)


It does however create save havens for evil PCs. Granted, there are save havens for good PCs as well: sudden murders or abductions are rare, as far as I know.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2012, 04:28:53 pm »
Quote from: Aphel
/dark elf/whatever
*coughs* if that was tru for all cases, Ty would have all the layonara paladins constantly looking to kill her ;)

Dremora

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2012, 05:19:40 pm »
Aphel I think you just insulted the alot of the A'zzatan church.

Back to topic though, why not simply scrap this ability that paladins are capable of 'detecting' evil when just about everybody has some 'evil' in them. Just because NWN's mechanics have rigidly divded everything into neat blocks doesn't mean that every type of evil should be detected just like that. The smite evil ability is when the paladin presumably calls upon his faith and purity to bless his weapon and strike his foe. Note you can use that ability on any creature, evil or no but will only actually work on evil creatures.
Its therefore easier if it used in combat against a paladin's enemies if the paladin suspects they are truly evil  in their core. He cannot mind read as stated and could be opposing any sort of foe for any sort of reason. Use the attack and see whether or not your purity and holiness actually does cause harm to whatever you are attacking. Basically, use it when you think your foe is evil (depending on faith).

Paladins are not clerics, plain and simple; they are holy warriors, not psychics. The clerics commune directly with their gods and im fairly sure paladins do not. Hence why they tend to obey the priesthood, leave the ability of 'detection' with the clerics for figuring out divine enemies and let the paladin players use their instinct rather than a rather lame tell like: "Hey im a paladin, are you evil?". It canonly encourage more teamplay between the classes and make things a little more interesting. If something is clearly acting evil or you as the player have a bad feeling about a character, then RP it. Don't assume you will always be right.

Thats my two cents on the whole Paladin detection ability concept; that said maybe such an ability could be given to Divine Champion classes since they are a cut above paladins but thats another discussion.
 

darkstorme

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2012, 02:12:49 pm »
Quote from: Dremora
Paladins are not clerics, plain and simple; they are holy warriors, not psychics. The clerics commune directly with their gods and im fairly sure paladins do not.


Just wanted to address this first - this is absolutely untrue.  Paladins are warriors in the service of their gods, and commune as directly with their deities as clerics do.  Because of their twin focus on faith and martial prowess, they don't generally develop quite as deep a connection (as reflected by their more limited spells), but a paladin of Toran is every bit as qualified to lead a Toranite service as a cleric.

The point I was going to get at is that generally (in D&D, if not in NWN), spells and abilities have balancing abilities.  Detect Evil is an at-will ability for Paladins in D&D, but there are spells like Undetectable Alignment which mask alignments.   (Or a thin sheet of lead.)  If a similar ability were implemented in Layo, the counters would also have to be implemented.

This isn't to say it couldn't be done, but, as always, to demonstrate that it wouldn't be a simple, isolated change.
 

Alatriel

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2012, 02:21:59 pm »
Quote from: Dremora
Aphel I think you just insulted the alot of the A'zzatan church.



I want to stress something here too, that seems to be forgotten all too often.  Az'attan dark elves are a minority.  The overwhelming populations of dark elves are evil, corrupt monstrosities that would indeed be a kill-on-sight or run like crazy for your life.  In fact, most Az'attans that are dark elves would still face problems such as these because of their appearance.  They would take great measures to show that they were indeed repented followers of Az'atta, however that wouldn't always convince the general public anyways.  Also, I don't think calling dark elves evil would in fact insult the Az'attan church.  The reason they believe as they do is because they are aware of their evil ways, they are remorseful of it.  It doesn't and can't change what they have done in the past, but they strive to be better for the rest of their lives.  It's very possible that many of them do believe they are still evil, they are just fighting against their nature.
 

Dezza

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2012, 05:30:04 pm »
Quote from: Dremora


Paladins are not clerics, plain and simple; they are holy warriors, not psychics. The clerics commune directly with their gods and im fairly sure paladins do not. Hence why they tend to obey the priesthood, leave the ability of 'detection' with the clerics for figuring out divine enemies and let the paladin players use their instinct rather than a rather lame tell like: "Hey im a paladin, are you evil?". It canonly encourage more teamplay between the classes and make things a little more interesting. If something is clearly acting evil or you as the player have a bad feeling about a character, then RP it. Don't assume you will always be right.

Thats my two cents on the whole Paladin detection ability concept; that said maybe such an ability could be given to Divine Champion classes since they are a cut above paladins but thats another discussion.



I must say I disagree completely with this statement :)

Clerics are called to serve their god and do so in a very straightforward manner gaining spells and blessings to use for the faithful. Some clerics are very pious in regard to the Faith others are less so and many vary in their personal dedication (but not to the point of losing spells).

Paladins and Divine Champions however are called to be all that they can be, the pinnacle of their dedication to the god, the one uncorruptable living example of what it means to serve their God.

Clerics are held to high standards yes, but Paladins and divine champions are held to such high principles that few if any achieve such a divine state of being in their diety's eyes.

Clerics are the workhorses of the faith while Paladins and Divine champions are the standard to which all members of the faith are measured against.

Try living up to that reputation...
 

Aphel

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2012, 08:05:44 pm »
Quote from: Dezza

Paladins and Divine Champions however are called to be all that they can be, the pinnacle of their dedication to the god, the one uncorruptable living example of what it means to serve their God.

Clerics are held to high standards yes, but Paladins and divine champions are held to such high principles that few if any achieve such a divine state of being in their diety's eyes.

Clerics are the workhorses of the faith while Paladins and Divine champions are the standard to which all members of the faith are measured against.


I would not say that Paladins and Champions are the standard the clergy is measured against, I would say that they are above it in a sense. Sure, a powerful cleric can use mighty prayers and litanies to perform a lot of things that are miracles, be it offensive or defensive. But a paladin is embodying the deity to a point where he or she know no more fear and is the most efficient warrior a church can have. Paladins and Champions live up to an entirely different standard than regular clergy to the point where they do things on a regular basis that would make a cleric withdraw (might this be a more fanatic streak with the personality or not). While clergy is expected to be what all regular members of the belief are measured against, paladins are maybe just looked up to as the example - they are something different. Their belief put them past fear and their combat training is excellent. This is hardly to compare to clergy who also does fight, but not to this extend. Depending on the church, they might be the ultimate measurement that all are measured against (especially in very militant churches, e.g.) or not (e.g. Aeridin) - that would be speculation on my part.

Quote
Try living up to that reputation...

Get up. Do training from hell. Go slay the big bad. Save the kitten. Teach the children to be good people. Bake cookies with grandmother. Drive back the big bad that comes to get grandma's cookies (and the children and the kitten) at dusk. Read and or write religious parchments. Bed. Night training. Go hunt the big bad because you can't sleep. Bed. Get up. Repeat. ;)
 

Dremora

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2012, 09:18:47 pm »
And a side question, if paladins are just martial clerics (as in more combat and less variety in the prayer department which is basically their mechanical difference), which is what it read as to me.. why not just give the widgit to detect diety alignements to the paladins as well. If they commune with their gods then how come the clerics can detect diety alignments in others and paladins can't, surely they're god would warn them that they are in the company of their diety's enemy.. something a paladin should avoid at all costs no? Also why do some churches in the RP standing order paladins to obey the clerics under most circumstances (Toranites for example)? Surely there would be no difference between the two if the Paladins ad clerics were as similar as has been described.
 

Rowana

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2012, 11:55:21 pm »
Quote from: Aphel
I would not say that Paladins and Champions are the  standard the clergy is measured against, I would say that they are  above it in a sense.

Within the lore of Layonara, within the NPC population of Layonara,  Paladins and Champions -are- the standard the clergy are measured  against. They are the standard that all devout followers are measured  against. They may -seem- above the standard to some (and indeed probably  many) but they are the goal (standard) of all true believers. Not all  faiths allow for Champions or Paladins in their ranks mechanically, but  there are still members of the clergy who exemplify the ideal all  mortals strive to emulate in each faith.

~row
 

drakogear

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2012, 12:12:35 am »
Hm, you know... the way I've always thought of it was:

Paladins and champions... and unholy Champions = Knights Templar (Holy warriors in service to there god. The right hand of there god as it were.)

Clerics = Priest and/or Bishops (The voice of there god... in a way. Those of greater power and rank holding a higher authority of course.)

Note in many christian movies featuring Templars there always answering to the priests and/or bishops... though above all the Pope. Highest ranking member of the Clergy.
 

Rowana

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2012, 12:54:48 am »
Quote from: drakogear
Note in many christian movies featuring Templars there always answering to the priests and/or bishops... though above all the Pope. Highest ranking member of the Clergy.

Toranites, Corathites et al are not structured like Christian Church(s). We do not tend to stray into the RL comparisons here because they, largely, do not work. Each of these Churches has their own structure as to where and how the clergy/Champions/paladins stand in official rankings. It is likely best to leave RL comparisons such as these behind and delve into what is on LORE to understand hierarchy and faith structure.


~row
 

lonnarin

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2012, 01:43:51 am »
Lacking a mechanical defense against alignment detection, I suggest that the spell "Protection from Good" might be a suitable substitute for undetectable alignment.  It has very little use otherwise, save for PVP or a few quest NPCs.  May as well give it an RP use.
 

drakogear

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2012, 01:16:35 am »
Quote from: Rowana
Toranites, Corathites et al are not structured like Christian Church(s). We do not tend to stray into the RL comparisons here because they, largely, do not work. Each of these Churches has their own structure as to where and how the clergy/Champions/paladins stand in official rankings. It is likely best to leave RL comparisons such as these behind and delve into what is on LORE to understand hierarchy and faith structure.


~row


Wasn't really comparing RL religions to Layo's.

Though... combine some of Layo's and you might have a close representation of some. Toren, Rafi and Aeridin together almost form the Christian faith. Especially Aeridin I think... or atleast his "Thou Shalt Not Kill" sorta thinking. For some reason I've always liked that commandment... atleast in RL... IGs on the other hand... I massacre. :)

Anyways, was mostly comparing Paladin and Clerics to RL in the sense that Cleric [[Be then lowly priests or high ranking Arch Bishops... or what ever religious title you wanna call  them. Every religion has there own set of titles.]] are often seen as the voice of there god. One of many holy [[or unholy]] vessels from witch there will is channeled through. [[Hints the clerics wide array of powers.]] Paladins [[Holly warriors, Crusaders]] Are mostly those of soldiers and knights in service to there god. [[Again, many religions though maybe not all have at least one of these.]] By there shier faith and dedication to there god and with there gods blessings [[bestowed upon  them by high ranking clergy... atleast in RL anyways]] they possess there special abilities. There spells on the other hand are granted much like the Cleric as in they too become the voice/vessel of there god. [[About a few months or years time equivalent to reaching level 4 Paladin]] Though none become as great as the highest ranking members of the gods clergy. As mentioned earlier they are the channel there gods will. Giving there holy warriors [[or unholy champions]] orders as depicted or at least interpreted through them.

[[Whew... that was alot... and heres a bit more. :p]] With Paladin always being in the service to good gods/deities they are granted by there god [[or even after many years of hunting and slaying evil they are able to sense it... in a way. Hm, though... with Unholy Champions being the only evil paladins [[as it were]] perhaps they should have a... Detect Good? Then again... how difficult can it be to tell if someone is good? ;)

*An Unholy Champion wanders a small town in disguise and sees a man helping out a group of people. Feigning difficulty with something and asking him for help the Unholy Champion lures the man into a dark ally... and smites him* Hah! Thats what you get for all your goodness... Death!

//Heh, sorry, had to add last part. :p
 

Hellblazer

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2012, 07:15:55 pm »
Quote from: drakogear

Paladins and champions... (Holy warriors in service to there god. The right hand of there god as it were.)

Clerics = Priest and/or Bishops (The voice of there god... in a way. Those of greater power and rank holding a higher authority of course.)


This is somewhat close to what I was told by ed once a while back.

The paladin are indeed the holy warriors of a god they do what others wouldn't be able to do and are most of the time in charge of any martial aspect of one church, either it be defense of the church or holy wars. That being said on the battle field the Paladin would still listen to the council of a cleric on matters of the faith, but the cleric would refer to the Paladin for martial aspect, and follow orders in that manner (as long as the order is not against the code of the faith of course) on the battle field.

The clerics are the voice of the gods, and keeper of the words. They tend to the matter of the faith and the church and in such are responsible for those affair that even a paladin would not entrench on, see previous paragraph about the paladin listening to the council of the cleric for the matters of faith. That is probably why in both the rofie and Tory lore you see more ranks held by the clergy in importance of the church structure.

Well Ed said it in fewer words, but I think this still holds the essence of what he had told me. Also to note that it may be more inline with what the MMO would be, but unless stated other wise I feel it would fit well with this incarnation of the game.

Dremora

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2012, 09:01:15 pm »
Anybody feel like addressing my previous question?
 

drakogear

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2012, 09:14:23 pm »
Well, as HellBlazer and I have mentioned the Paladin would consult the cleric on maters of the faith.  In terms of "detect diety alignment" They would likely have to ask a cleric of there own faith how they feel about the specific person and judging from there reply the paladin can determine wither they worship evil or not.

Possibly even go into a little debate over it.

The Paladin senses evil from the person but the cleric senses a friendly deity.

Ex: Toranite Paladin and cleric judging a lawful evil Rofi. :p
 

Hellblazer

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2012, 09:41:33 pm »
Again, the paladin would also probably sense evil from every one near him. Just on a different level, and while they debate (the pally and cleric) about what they perception they each get from their deity, the so call person might have the time to do what they were sent to do :p

Dremora

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2012, 08:24:32 am »
I still don't see a reason as to why a god would not warn his/her/its paladins of being in the presence of their enemy faiths but he would alert a cleric. My suggestion is to give the diety alignment check to both classes. Not asking for the installation of a detect evil or who should have it because imo if both commune with their diety and the main fundamental difference is prayers over combat and vice versa. The god in question (presuming he actually has an intelligence) would give both classes the ability to sense enemy faith. Detect evil is a more slippery slope to me and goes into the realm of metagaming/telepathy etc.

Granted this suggestion is slightly off the topic but as far as my opinion goes for detect evil, well its just above :)
 

drakogear

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2012, 04:48:09 pm »
I'd say the reason the only the cleric can detect diety alignment is the fact that they pray to there god more so then Champions or even Paladins and are thus more intone with there god.

A paladin is at most a defender of there faith. As to are the champions... more or less.

As for Detect Evil. I've already given my thoughts on how I think it could be done. With the paladins many long years of hunting and slaying evil they would have a sorta... intuitive sense of who might be evil. Note that then it wouldn't really be for a low level paladin as they have not traveled far and long enough to know what is truly evil. After all... just cause you dress in black doesn't necessarily mean you worship death or anything.
 

mixafix

Re: Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2012, 05:09:38 pm »
Mostly anyone can detect evil just not as good as paladins.
 
 Are they wearing a hood ? is it raining? Job done ;)