Questions About Paladin: Sense Evil

[Nehetsrev]

Firstly, let me state that since I'm posting here in the "Ask A Gamemaster" section it means I'm seeking only answers and input from those members of the community who are in fact active Gamemasters.
 
 Secondly, I'd like to make it clear I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, nor get anyone in trouble, nor ask for a ret-con of any events that have already occurred in-game. I am simply seeking statements to clarify how a certain ability should be used and handled for future reference, to help better the community by hopefully eliminating some potential misunderstandings. I will use a specific recent in-game occurance as an example, but not to point fingers or anything like that.
 
 Now to address the heart of the matter. I'll start by explaining a recent in-game situation. On a quest there was a rather evil-acting child NPC who was the sole survivor of a camp of presumeably evil persons. In the group of PC's was a paladin, as well as a Nuetral Evil character, and of course a number of various other characters. The paladin at one point questioned via Tell the intent the Nuetral Evil character had toward the presumeably evil NPC child when the NE PC was offering to 'find the child a home'. This was explained to be a use of the paladin ability to Sense Evil.
 
 Admittedly, I should have answered the Tell with a simple "yes" or "no" answer at that point, but felt I wanted to explain my character's intent somewhat instead. So, when asked if my PC's intent was evil I answered via Tell something along the lines of, "not unless you count wanting to sell the child into slavery as being evil." Taken out of the context of the PC's motivations behind such thoughts most would agree that's definitely an evil intent. I intended to explain further that the NE PC reasoned the child would be given a home, and taught discipline, respect and humility (qualities the child aparently lacked entirely) and have his most basic needs cared for, with the additional motive that the NE PC would make some good True from the transaction herself. I don't recall if I had the opportunity to follow up the first tell with that explaination though as the quest moved on and my focus became more centered on what was going on. Anyway, I feel in the eyes of the NE PC the intent would not have been thought of as evil and my simple answer should have been "no".
 
 I learned from a conversation with the paladin's player a few days later that the paladin no longer wished anything to do with my NE PC because of the evil she sensed on the quest. Fair enough, in my opinion, logical RP extention of the situation. However, what surprised me was that the other played had relayed my response to the DM to ask for a ruling, and the DM ruled the intent was evil without taking a moment to confirm directly with me the motivations of my character. I suggested to the paladin's player that for future Sense Evil checks they might go to the DM as a mediary and have the DM contact the other players of characters whose intents are being questioned and have the answers relayed that way. Another surprise, the paladin's player informed me they had been told by the DM that players should ask other players directly (as had been done) rather than go through the DM.
 
 In summary, I guess I'm trying to say that it makes more sense to me for such abilities to be routed through the DM (in situations where DM's are available) for the following reasons:
 
 1) It might help to avoid the feeling that "because a player knows my PC is of Evil alignment they're only using their paladin ability on my PC." Sort of an 'alignment profiling' metagaming effect.
 
 2) The DM gains insight on the thoughts and motivations of characters which would be useful in determining the awarding of alignment points, and in support of alignment based judgements for character development as a whole.
 
 
 
 Lastly, when I looked up the Paladin class in LORE, there is no mention of the Paladin Sense Evil ability. I would suggest a LORE page be added to explain the proper use of the ability and its extents and limitations.
 
 Some other questions about the ability that come to mind which might need to be explained on such a LORE page:
 
 Is the Sense Evil ability targeted, meaning useable on specific individuals one at a time? Or, is it a ranged area of effect, meaning the paladin senses Evil (or not) from all persons within a certain range, leaving no one's intents un-checked within that range?
 
 Must the ability be focused upon or 'activated'? Or, is it automatic, in effect at all times?
 
 Is the ability limitted to sensing only the present intent of an individual, meaning it only gives feedback on the target(s) current state of mind? Or, is it based on the overall alignment of the target(s), meaning that an evil character is detected as such, regardless if their current intents are not evil?
 
 How is the alignment of an intent determined to be good or evil? Is it based on the actual result that acting on the intent would have, rather than the reasoning or justification behind the act? Is it based on severity of ill-will, meaning a character might intend only to cuss at another person (an evil act, even though it has little meaningful effect, does not cause physical harm) and thus would return a 'positive' result on the Sense Evil check? Or must the target intend actual physical harm to someone?
 
 If the ability to Sense Evil is automatic, always active, and based on present intent wouldn't the paladin sense evil from almost every PC and NPC they encounter at some point?

[Dorganath]

OK well for starters, a Paladin's Detect Evil ability is not an NWN thing, but a d20/D&D thing, which probably explains its absence from LORE.  As such, it's an RP power that takes some judgment, discretion and at times adjudication to use properly.

For the purposes of further discussion, I think it's important to refer to this:  Detect Evil :: d20srd.org

That's effectively what a Paladin can do, but a Paladin can do so at will, not as a spell.

As you can read, the ability detects the presence of evil and eventually the source of that evil if the concentration upon it continues.  

It does not, however, detect intent.  It does not make a paladin psychic or empathic in any way.  

So in your example above, the NE character would be detected as evil by a paladin probably somewhat clearly (thought it might depend on what other evil was nearby), but the intentions behind that NE character's words or actions would not be known.

Also, I would say that the ability is triggered, not persistent.  Sure, a paladin could just continually try to detect evil, but that would take the paladin's attention away from other things...like fighting.

And yes, this ability may well mean that evil could potentially be seen everywhere (in people), anywhere from a glimmer to a beacon, depending.

To respond about routing... Since the ability has nothing to do with intent or motivation, there's not much to be gained by going directly to a player, other than just asking "Hey, my paladin is detecting evil. Your character is evil, right?" to which that player should answer truthfully.  In general, though, it would make better sense to ask a GM (if present) who could then say, "That NPC back in the corner....and oh...Bob, standing right behind you..."

[Alatriel]

Okay, now I have a question- I was told that in Layonara, Paladins don't have the normal ability of detect evil, but instead had a detect evil intent.... I don't really care which one it is (and no, the below post was not in regards to me) but if there is a clarification that would be great! (considering my paladin pretty much detects everyone- yes everyone, even good guys, even people in her own church, even children.)

Some DM's use it as a "detect evil" and some as an intent thing... clarification would be fantabulous!

Thanks

[Dorganath]

I'm not sure who told you that, and it's not really important.  

Given what I linked and given that telepathy, psychic abilities and the like aren't available to PCs and 99.9999999% of anything you might encounter, detecting intent is akin to mind reading.  Never mind the fact that it's rather open to interpretation.

In the example above, the intent was to teach a problem child discipline (good), respect for authority (good), see to his basic needs (good) and so forth.  The means was through slavery (generally seen as evil, but not universally) and there was the opportunity for profit in doing so (self-serving, so evil by common definition, if a bit "evil light").  So taken overall, the entire intent might come out to a frustrating "neutral".  To be able to pick out one part of the intent from another again borders on mind-reading and is subjective to the observer.

Detecting the presence of evil, on the other hand, is not subjective. It's core to a being or to the residuals left by that being (the "lingering aura" effect). It is or it is not, and if it is, there is a magnitude of evilness.

[Masterjack]

In my opinion. If it is not in LORE, then it is not a proper skill. There fore their are no rules on it's use.  It is up to the individual GMs if they allow it and how it would work.

When I'm doing a quest and someone tries to sense evil. I tell them they feel nothing out of the ordinary, unless I think sensing evil will help move things along. If they ever do sense evil it is played more as a hunch or an uneasy feeling.

[Alatriel]

In all honesty, I can't remember who told me to begin with, and no, it really doesn't matter, but that makes things a lot easier.  Thanks!

[miltonyorkcastle]

As a side note, there are ways for an evil character to hide their nature from the "detect evil" ability. And yes, those ways involve magic.

[Filatus]

My understanding of it, was to limit it to quests with GM permission only, but there's never been a really definitive answer from the team. Considering there are explanations for the shadowdancer abilities somewhere, perhaps the paladin's detect evil should have some sort of offical guideline as well.

[jrizz]

As a side note, there are ways for an evil character to hide their nature from the "detect evil" ability. And yes, those ways involve magic.

If two PCs meet and there is no GM around how can a evil PC mechanically hide its evil aura from a paladin's mechanical detect evil ability?

OK forget that LOL I was just told that Paladins dont have a mechanical way to do that. So between PCs with no GM around a pally can say "hey I detect evil on you" and the evil PC can say "I have a spell cast on me that masks my aura".

NOTE: The D&D 3.5 edition 3rd level clerical spell Undetectable Alignment (Conceals alignment for 24 hours) would do the trick. I am sure that those evil folks aligned with Corath can have that cast on them almost every day

[Dorganath]

NOTE: The D&D 3.5 edition 3rd level clerical spell Undetectable Alignment (Conceals alignment for 24 hours) would do the trick. I am sure that those evil folks aligned with Corath can have that cast on them almost every day

That assumes they have access to a cleric every day.  Remember that actual travel times are much longer than what the game actually represents.  A Corathite who's in Leringard can't just make a quick run to the Mistone temple, get the spell cast and be good for the rest of the RL day.

Also, one game day passes in about 1.6 hours in real-time.

[EdTheKet]

OK well for starters, a Paladin's Detect Evil ability is not an NWN thing, but a d20/D&D thing, which probably explains its absence from LORE.

Correct. Don't want to fill up LORE with d20 things if we can avoid it.

Given what I linked and given that telepathy, psychic abilities and the  like aren't available to PCs and 99.9999999% of anything you might  encounter, detecting intent is akin to mind reading.

And to tie in to this, Telepathy is not allowed and this is on LORE LORE: Player Rules

[Dezza]

I've always handled it by saying the paladin can concentrate on a certain direction and within a limited range may be able to sense the presence of evil if the subject would have a certain aura to it. Its not an automatic thing it must be directly attempted to use.

I also consider the strength of the perception as being linked to whether the target wishes harm or has distinct evil thoughts or intentions. Otherwise its just a case of yes you feel the presence of evil from the target but nothing that triggers any alarm bells.

Consider if a Paladin did it in the average street of a town, they are going to always pick up evilness from around them but the intensity of that detection comes down to what sort of evil those people are intending. Or alternatively the average vampire masquerading as a local citizen might come undone if the Paladin by luck was focusing on the street at the moment the vampire walked across his or her field of vision.  

[Eegxeta]

The paladin has the smite evil ability but I've found without the detect evil I don't know if I can use it on an enemy. Could it be added as a spell-like ability and on your screen only enemies with an evil alignment would glow red for a moment or something along those lines.

[Alatriel]

Sense evil generally is something that you can do only with a GM present.  It can be rp'd with npc's such as when you're out killing orcs, bugbears, giants, goblins, etc. in order to add to the rp.  It's not a spell-like ability, and it doesn't work with mechanics of hostile vs. non-hostile.  A Lucindite would see a Toranite as an enemy, but most likely neither of them would be evil.  Also, just because something is evil doesn't mean that it gives you a free pass to kill them.  Evil people who have evil hearts but are following all of the rules of society, for example, if you just went and attacked them because you saw them highlighted as hostile, would mean that you had just committed murder.  Not everything is represented by mechanics.  

[Script Wrecked]

Notwithstanding, the point still remains: If Smite Evil only works on Evil creatures, and Paladins have a Detect Evil ability, shouldn't they be able to use Detect Evil to determine which creatures the Smite Evil ability will smite?

[Lance Stargazer]

Well.. Think that the problem is that NWN doesn't have the Detect evil spell that the table top game has. Its my understanding that the paladin supernatural ability to detect evil works as that spell ( 1rst level cleric spell ). So since the spell was not seen needed to be integrated into the system then that is why they don't actually added the supernatural ability to the Paladin mechanical class.

Now returning to the specific layo example, We must remember that Layonara its not a standard D&D setting even if NWN is still based on it  and hence things work diferently. I must say that yes it was a bit hard to understand at first , and yes at times sound a bit ilogical , we have a system to work with that skill that Paladins have. and that system is how it works for layonara. Its a tool we as players have for Gm events and to develop our characters over quests.

My two trues.

[Script Wrecked]

The problem is that the implemented [LORE]Paladin[/LORE] class does not have a Detect Evil ability, but that we are roleplaying that it does.

Then someone is saying (quite reasonably) that, if the Paladin does have a Detect Evil ability, that they should be able to... detect evil.

The real question is, why does Detect Evil need to be GM adjudicated?

[Aphel]

So that schneaky evil can be schneaky.

In all honesty, I am not sure. It could be so that both evil npcs as well as evil pcs aren't hounded and hunted all over the place by the dynamic Rofis or Toranites. Maybe it would be to hard to implement, even - but I doubt that. I guess it is just a balance of sorts while the GM is not around, and when the GM is around, that GM can take care nothing gets too bad out of control.

I am not sure if it would be a mechanical problem. All you would need is a script that is attached to an item that has a limited amount of usages per day and returns the feeling about the creature or character per chat-response (like the thirst and hunger skript). At least that how I would try to code it (and give up after a while).

[RollinsCat]

based on my understanding, it wouldn't matter if a pc could detect evil in a another pc or npc - they'd have be doing something, i.e. attacking, thieving, defacing public property, jaywalking - before said Detect Evil pc could do anything about it, especially in the case of Rofis and Toranites, and unless a gm is present to run/describe the npc's actions...it ain't happening.  WWE (Walking While Evil) isn't a crime.

[Alatriel]

The real question is, why does Detect Evil need to be GM adjudicated?

In this case, it needs to be adjudicated when dealing between PC's.  In the case of npc's that are in the module anyways, I don't see any reason why someone can't police themselves, but since dealing with other PC's is a more sensitive issue leading to questions and complaints of metagaming, it's better to have a GM there.  Granted, there may be times when the other PC offers up the information, but it's better to be safe than sorry.