Shouldn't they all speak UNDERcommon?

[lonnarin]

I just was told that due to schooling of the races of the underdark, ie: Dark Elves, Deep Dwarves and Deep Gnomes, that they all get to speak common automatically upon submission.  I also see undercommon listed as a bonus language that they could choose to learn with a detailed bio and a 12+ intelligence...  isn't this backwards?

Shouldn't these races learn undercommon automatically instead of common?  Please explain why or why not.  I'm really finding it strange that surface creatures like goblins need to learn common, and people from hundreds of miles beneath the earths crust where undercommon instead of common is spoken need no effort to learn the alien language, just the local one.

I would find it much more logical to have underdark races learn the topside language through training rather than to just give them all the common tongue at birth.  The assumption that every single deep gnome, deep dwarf and dark elf knows common at birth without explaination is very fickle, even when assuming they are better educated than most monstrous races.  if they were so educated, they would learn undercommon before common...

Maybe I'm missing something here... is there an ear for undercommon?  My drow never got it if there was one.  I never saw undercommon spoken in game before, but some of the races and lore have it listed as a bonus language, so that's very confusing.

Also, what the heck are all those random high elven, low elven, deep low high elven, medium high elven tongues and all those other ones listed, do we even have ears for them?

[LynnJuniper]

There is , to my knowledge no undercommon ear, though what your saying makes sense. If the language listed as the connecting language for the Deep is undercommon, then they should have to train for the use of common, or the mention of undercommon should be taken away, even if the lack of use of it is a mechanical set back rather than an rp decision not to have it.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Speak Language :: d20srd.org

Undercommon, as I understand it, is more an insectoid-type language. Clicks and squeaks.

Drow is a dialect of Elven. So are the other Elvens, which are for the different kinds of elves... In FR. Here, elven society is less based on the type of elf, as most are just Moon Elves. So there's just Elven.

[lonnarin]

Yeah, I didn't see it listed in the submissions section as a selectable language.  Nor hobgoblin, which is listed in the goblin racial section.  VERY confusing.

If there is no undercommon then, and everybody in the underdark speaks common, can we update the underdark directory to say "everybody in the underdark speaks common as a unifying language for trade and commerce as they do topside"?  if every underdark character knows common, then lets devise a reason for it.  if not, then please explain why deep dwarves, deep gnomes and dark elves... all know common.

I also find it funny when debating this that some of the very same people who insist that they wish drow were slain on sight defend with equal fervor the drow birthright to speak common.  Maybe more people would kill drow on sight if they didn't unerringly speak the Queen's English, using diplomacy.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Following the release of the new handbook, LORE will undergo some some major updating. This includes more relevant information on Layo's version of the underdark. Point is, I'll see to it this little common/undercommon problem is cleared up at that point.

[Dorganath]

Much of our older information (and the bit about Underdark and other languages) was stock D&D.  As you surely know, we've been moving away from the stock D&D lore and replacing it with things that more appropriately fit Layonara.  I'm sure you're also aware that we have certain mechanical limitations that do not allow us to completely replicate the dynamic environment of a PnP type setting. Yes, there is some legacy information, but there's a whole lot that needs to be reviewed, and it's a big job for an all-volunteer staff.

In any case, there's a better forum for making suggestions for LORE and forum content changes.  It will just get lost here.

On the "birthright" of dark elves speaking Common, whether or not a dark elf has spent any time among surfacers is irrelevant as to whether or not they would know Common.  It is a matter of studying one's enemies to better defeat one's enemies.  It would only take one dark elf to study surface ways to eventually bring the language to the Deep and make sure it was taught. As you are quite fond of real-life examples, it's entirely possible to learn another language, German for example, without ever seeing or speaking to an actual German. Likewise, the knowledge of Common is passed through those who teach it and in books that do the same.  It's not a "birthright"...it's just a fact of society.

[lonnarin]

As you are quite fond of real-life examples, it's entirely possible to learn another language, German for example, without ever seeing or speaking to an actual German. Likewise, the knowledge of Common is passed through those who teach it and in books that do the same.  It's not a "birthright"...it's just a fact of society.

The fact of society is that the majority of populaces speak their own racial language to the exclusion of all others, even recognizing all intelligence based factors.  I would propose that ALL races only speak their own racial languages, unless specifically noted otherwise in their bios through intense training and multi-cultural exploration.  This includes surface races like dwarves, elves, halflings and gnomes.  

Wouldn't the RP be drastically improved if nobody but humans got common?  If every time a dwarf said "hey der lad" your eyes lit up and you said "wow, you can speak common, Mr Dwarf!"  

Now, one could conclude that we could learn languages without ever meeting a natural speaker...and that is correct.  However, making the leap from "possible" to absolute for every single drow, svirvneblin and duergar character is a HUGE leap unfounded by logic.  The vast majority of their numbers will speak only their own given language, and only the most educated among them will learn something as foreign as common.  Drow may have been from the surface way back when, but they were speaking elven when they were, not common, unless they were specialist linguist elves who had close contact with human lands.  And even then, the teacher would have to have a darn good reason for speaking common several generations later in the underdark.

I suggest that we treat all races as alien to eachother's languages unless they had sufficient training and exposure to one another in order to attain fluency.  It's much more realistic than to walk 5000 miles in any direction in the world, north, south, east, west, up or down, and to find there's a deep dwarf waiting for you saying "oi lad, this be tha underdark.  Doncha know?  EVERYBODY speaks human here! har har har!".

I would say that while your example of it being possible to learn german without ever meeting a german is totally different from when the equivalent of what we do in Layo happens... Is it possible for every single drow, svrivneblin and duergar to know the human language common, without ever spending a single day learning to speak it in the history of the character, and never meeting a human?  We have erroneously assumed that language is genetic.  

We could even assume that speaking common in a Deep Dwarf or Dark Elf city would be criminal, a sign of treason, a huge cultural taboo.  Dark Elves and Deep Dwarves view themselves as superior to all others, and would scorn the surfacer cultures and languages unless they had a specific reason to go to the surface.  Speaking common is a sign that the particular deep dweller was preparing to defect to the topside, so only Azattans and spies would speak common, not the common underdweller.  And Deep Gnomes... well, they're so shy I don't think they would even sit stil long enough to learn from a human if he offered them bread.  That's the cultural societal standard.  For a deep dweller's family or school to have the time and resources to teach him all of these extra languages is a sign of higher learning and luxury that would only be reserved for nobility.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

As I understand it, Common is not the "human" language. It is the -Common- language, which ALL (or nearly all) societies speak.

I think that your argument is based on the idea that Common is the human language. Well, just because we typically only speak Common doesn't mean it's ours. It just means we don't have our own unique heritage, like Elves, Dwarves, etc. do.

Common is the Common Language of Everybody. Not just surfacers.

Don't see why everyone; humans, dwarves, elves, dark elves, svirfneblin, goblins, orcs, whoever... Shouldn't get it.

[Dorganath]

Contrary to popular belief, we do not require a full documentation of every minute of every day of a character's bio upon submission.  There are some race and/or class choices that require a few more details, but here are the facts:

Growing up in Dark Elf society includes schooling in many, many things, including the languages of their enemies, most notably Elvish and Common.

There is nothing "erroneous" about it.

In addition, Common is a trade language, a convenience for the benefit of trade and interaction to a wider demographic.  In many ways, it is entirely equivalent to English on this world.  And before you begin to debate this point, English is taught as a second language to a depth and distribution in a large number of civilized countries to a far, far greater extent that any other language is taught in the United States.  To continue a previous example, Germany starts formal English instruction by 5th grade, if not sooner....and in most cases, it's mandatory.

One last thing: on Earth, there are no "racial" languages.  There are only 4 truly recognized, biological racial types, and none of them have one, single language common to the whole racial type We have cultural languages that are defined by geographic, and sometimes religious, demarcations, not genetic composition.

But this is a fantasy world, with its own set of rules, cultures and characteristics.  While originally based on the D&D/d20 systems, we are increasingly moving away from that system.  In addition, we have game mechanics to deal with. Things are the way they are.  Thank you for pointing out some inconsistencies in the documented lore, which are unfortunate hold-overs from much earlier.  As miltonyorkcastle said, we'll address those as the team has time to do so.

[LynnJuniper]

Is there, or is there not then, a formal school system/systems in Layonara. I've heard people say no and I've heard others say yes. What's the deal on this?

[Drizzlin]

What Dorg said. Sometimes people do not understand the Dark Elf society and what it actually be like to live a life as they do. They strive for perfection and power. They study their enemies and do all they can to enslave them, all the while killing each other in a constant struggle for dominance and power among their city.

Now this doesn't mean that they "know" everything and in fact most of their teachings would be twisted by their history to depect the other races as evil and vile. What they would know and study however are the weakness of their enemies and how to defeat them. The dark elves are not above knowing common, human, elven, dwarven, ect, they just feel above speaking those languages.

[Acacea]

There are schools, but there is no 'public education' where all the little farm children trot off to the schools paid for and provided by government taxes in the majority of places.

[Dorganath]

There are schools, but there is no 'public education' where all the little farm children trot off to the schools paid for and provided by government taxes in the majority of places.

Right.  "Formal education" in most "civilized" areas does not exist in an institutionalized sense in most cases.  Commoners speak Common, likely with bad grammar and worse spelling, if they can even write.  That's not to say there aren't schools, but they aren't for everyone either.  At least in the human societies, mostly it's the rich who can afford a decent education for their children.  The rest do what they can with what they have, but a formal and comprehensive education is the exception, not the rule.

Edit: Traditionally, temples were places of education as much as they were for training in faith, as they had the resources for such things more than most others.

Dark Elf society is vastly different than human society in every way.  Failure comes in many forms, including illiteracy, which is simply not tolerated among a subrace that considers themselves superior in all ways.  Even Elven society is much different in how they raise and educate their offspring.  The same can be said for Halfling, Dwarf, Gnome and every other major racial and cultural demarcation on Layonara.

So no, you won't be seeing any Little Red Schoolhouses dotting the landscape of Layonara (though that would be a great WLDQ for some Aragenite).  Schools do exist, but they are rare and/or specialized (i.e. wizard academies)

[Falonthas]

that could also explain why farmers sons become farmers, blacksith sons become blacksmiths and so forth
they learn "are educated" in what they need to know to live as an adult, and those who are seen as special" latent talents" would be those small percentage that break the mold and become the adventuring populace

[Acacea]

Apprenticing is also more common than a yard of schoolchildren.

[lonnarin]

I would have thought that somebody so educated would first learn the languages of their close neighbors than those from an alien topside world; teaching drow to speak deep dwarf for trade or deep gnome for slaves.  Considering that is not the case and common is invariably favored by all three underdark societies, we must conclude that they all learn common as a common language to communicate with eachother... and that topside common is the same as that which is spoken in the underdark.  So it's not that the drow are learning "human" just that humans are so lazy they dont even have any racial language, they just speak tradespeak. Correct?

In any case, if drow schooling is as rigorous and absolute as you say, then it is certainly worth writing about.  I know my journal would include any instances of my latin teacher pointing a poisoned crossbow to my neck and screaming at me to recite vocabulary.  

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Considering that is not the case and common is invariably favored by all three underdark societies, we must conclude that they all learn common as a common language to communicate with eachother... and that topside common is the same as that which is spoken in the underdark.  So it's not that the drow are learning "human" just that humans are so lazy they dont even have any racial language, they just speak tradespeak. Correct?

Ding! <3

[EdTheKet]

1) there is no undercommon ear, there will be no undercommon ear, and undercommon will never have existed once the new books are out. LORE will be updated then, not before.
2) Please refer to the Common Language text I just posted. This will be in the next handbook, thanks to merlin34baseball for writing. This should answer the questions on how the language came to be.
3) there are schools but there is no public education system.
4) dark elf schooling is rigirous, and culminates in a Testing when you reach 100 years old. If you fail you die.
There will be no time spent on writing up an educational system at this point in time, there are other priorities.

I hope that this clears up the questions raised in this thread.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

PRINTING press! Wow.

[EdTheKet]

Err.... posted the wrong version!