Sign outside of Hempstead and what it means

[twidget658]

First, NWN sneaking is broken. It is silly to think someone could "hide" and walk along an open road and through a narrow gate without being seen. That doesn't mean it isn't possible to sneak into towns, just that what we usually think of as sneaking in-game would not work; you can't hide in the open.

 
 Isn't this a huge city where there are hundreds of people coming and going each day. There is one gate that all these people have to go through. The area around the gate would be very crowded and busy. Hard to hide in such a crowd? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on a lot of factors. But hiding in the open is quite possible. However, I would have to say that there has to be tremndous RP on how, but not 'silly'.
 
 Reminder: The city is huge and crowded. Not just what you see with 4 PC's standing around talking.

[Gulnyr]

Exactly my point - huge and crowded with more than just what you see, plus they care enough about who gets in to pay to put a sign outside the gate telling people who can't come in.  If, as Ed responded to positively, it could be expected that anyone entering the city be asked to show their faces, then for such a big and busy city there must be more than two guards, plus some sort of magical enhancement like True Seeing.  And the guards aren't stupid, as has also been confirmed previously, so they wouldn't just let some wagon piled high with stuff pass without an inspection.  They would look for people hiding in rolls of canvas or hanging on the axles underneath or whatever, too.  If the guards stopped checking and just let people pass, they would either be derelict in their duty and eventually be punished and replaced, or the laws would have changed to something more lax so there wouldn't be as much need for inspection.

I'm not saying anything at all about hiding in crowds, which is simple enough.  I'm not saying sneaking into town is impossible, since it isn't.  I am saying it would take a lot more effort and would entail a lot more risk than the game currently models.

[jrizz]

This is a opportunity. right now the only place a monster race can go a buy gear is in Hempstead. Time to open a shop else where.

[Acacea]

Vehl, you mean? Don't think anyone is arguing monster races being banned. It's not like orcs could just open one up in Leringard. Vehl is the exception to the pretty much global surface standard in regards to pure monster races, and they're hardly well-treated there anyway...

[stolen]

I have two comments about this.

First, NWN sneaking is broken.  It is silly to think someone could "hide" and walk along an open road and through a narrow gate without being seen.  That doesn't mean it isn't possible to sneak into towns, just that what we usually think of as sneaking in-game would not work; you can't hide in the open.

I dont think that sneaking is so much broken as that game mechanics dont allow you to do what would really be happening. When I am in sneaking mode with a character, even though on screen I am simply walking down the middle of the road or through an open space, I always see my character as darting from place to place, shadow to shadow, taking advantage of places to hide that non-sneakers wouldnt think of. But game mechanics dont allow this on screen.

For instance if I was to sneak into Hempstead what I really see as happening is my character waiting for the oppertunity of a delivery wagon or large group entering the city and using that to gain admittance.

[Weeblie]

It is not that sneaking into Hempstead is impossible.

But rather that it is not up to the sneaker to decide whether he is successful or not.

Hence the need to actually have a DM present for doing so.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

This is a opportunity. right now the only place a monster race can go a buy gear is in Hempstead. Time to open a shop else where.

If you are refering to the Guilds, that may seem true, but many times I have seen Ferrit from the Angels take an ox full of stuff and sit in front of the pond and sell it.  Also, if the PC is smart enough to know the guild is inside, they may also be smart enough to send a letter to the Guild asking for a meeting outside the City.

IF you are talking about basic items?  Well the same stores that are in Hempstead are in Vehl.  Granted, they are harder to find because they are not in one room, but all the vendors are spread out between on "building" through various doors right inside the gates of Vehl

[jan]

Vehl, you mean? Don't think anyone is arguing monster races being banned. It's not like orcs could just open one up in Leringard. Vehl is the exception to the pretty much global surface standard in regards to pure monster races, and they're hardly well-treated there anyway...

No one is well-treated in Vehl ....

Which is funny if you take into account that a Rofirein temple is in the city

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Rofirein is a Neutral God of Law and Order, Not "Be nice and cheerful."  So making sure people are well treated are prolly not the main concern, rather to make sure people follow the laws

[Gulnyr]

I'm reluctant to type anything else because it seems more is being read than I am saying.  Weeblie's post is an almost perfect summary.

I dont think that sneaking is so much broken as that game mechanics dont allow you to do what would really be happening. When I am in sneaking mode with a character, even though on screen I am simply walking down the middle of the road or through an open space, I always see my character as darting from place to place, shadow to shadow, taking advantage of places to hide that non-sneakers wouldnt think of. But game mechanics dont allow this on screen.

First, to clarify what "broken" means, being able to stand in the middle of the very well-lit Vehl arena and be undetectable to commoners is broken.  Second, I am not in any way questioning what should be happening or how hiding should be properly RP'd.  I agree with your assessment, except to say that you probably shouldn't be on the road at all, much less walking down the middle of it, if you are RPing hiding.  Instead, you should be off to the side somewhere where there would be bushes and trees and such to hide behind.  But really, we agree everywhere that counts.

For instance if I was to sneak into Hempstead what I really see as happening is my character waiting for the oppertunity of a delivery wagon or large group entering the city and using that to gain admittance.

This is where we part ways.  You seem to be assuming that the guards just stand there or that there are only two to inspect everyone who enters.  I am saying that what we see in-game is a low resolution representation of what is really there.

Entering the city through the gate or via pier would be something like going through the airport.  People who go there a lot know the drill and have things set up to get through as quickly and smoothly as possible.  Since weapons and such are fine in Port Hempstead, that basically only means having your face visible and not looking too suspicious.  The size of the group means nothing.  If there are thirty people walking together to get in and any of them have hoods up (or are otherwise covered, like a Halfling with a large-brimmed hat looking down), then the guards will say something and act if the hooded people don't respond.  And since there are surely more than two guards at such an important gate, some handle that and some watch elsewhere, since they aren't stupid and understand the concept of distractions.  If you're bringing a wagon, you should expect it to be inspected, and if you're trying to sneak in on one, you should expect to have to do more than wait for an opportunity.  Guards watching from the walls above would see you dart in to jump onto the back after an inspection, for example.  You'd need a more elaborate plan, usually.

But y'know, maybe the guards are having a bad day all around and simple tricks might work.  I'm not saying anything is impossible.  I am saying that it might be good to read what Weeblie said again, since I seem to be incapable of expressing a point in a way that everyone else can understand:

It is not that sneaking into Hempstead is impossible.

But rather that it is not up to the sneaker to decide whether he is successful or not.

Hence the need to actually have a DM present for doing so.

[Drizzlin]

Entering the city through the gate or via pier would be something like going through the airport.  People who go there a lot know the drill and have things set up to get through as quickly and smoothly as possible.  Since weapons and such are fine in Port Hempstead, that basically only means having your face visible and not looking too suspicious.  The size of the group means nothing.  If there are thirty people walking together to get in and any of them have hoods up (or are otherwise covered, like a Halfling with a large-brimmed hat looking down), then the guards will say something and act if the hooded people don't respond.  And since there are surely more than two guards at such an important gate, some handle that and some watch elsewhere, since they aren't stupid and understand the concept of distractions.  If you're bringing a wagon, you should expect it to be inspected, and if you're trying to sneak in on one, you should expect to have to do more than wait for an opportunity.  Guards watching from the walls above would see you dart in to jump onto the back after an inspection, for example.  You'd need a more elaborate plan, usually.

I completely agree with you here. Using your example I can start listing the thousands upon thousands of illegal things that still get through the airports, along with the shoe bomber guy. Sure you can say "well they are only looking for races of people, so it is easier", but mistakes are always made.

I feel you are forgetting how skilled a rogue (or any class) is with 50+ skill in hide and MS. Then add magic to the fray. Of course you can argue that the guards have true sight, which is IMO horse poopie. People saying that are the first to complain that every NPC they try to fight or get by has true sight.  

An underpaid guard at a gate, even if there are a bunch of them, are easy targets to get by if you are skilled at what you are doing. Most average people would get caught, I agree there. The ones getting through would be the skilled ones, such as a level 25 rogue. He would move right through the gates and crowd with ease. Other classes could as well.

[Acacea]

I really don't think he is trying to argue whether or not it is possible for someone to enter one way or another - he's just saying that because of there is more that meets the eye and the mistakes are not ours to decide, IC law breaking is best left to DM supervision. Yes, he happens to disagree on the simplicity of doing so, but the basic premise is that the limiting factors and openings are for DMs to tell us, not ours to assume. Rael's guards might make mistakes too, but just walking in and saying you sneaked isn't going to make it look any less like metagaming.

I agree that the guards do not all have true sight, that would be difficult, of course. I am sure that some of them have it cast on them, from different vantages than the gates. It would not be imbued on a permanent item, nor as a trait of the soldier, but it does not seem far fetched to assume that there are paid mages who may recast on a few of them. But again...that is beside the point. There may or may not be sight anywhere in the city, and they may or may not check wagons. They just want it limited to when they can watch and make sure it's done right with DMs and not just a PC saying "I snuck, so it's okay."

[Alatriel]

Ok... so to add on to this, I have a problem when a group of people who are allowed are standing in Hempstead having a conversation and a banned raced character walks up and just stands there and nothing is done about it.  I understand that if a GM is not on, then there's not a whole lot we can do about it, but I think it is poor rp, and I've seen way too much of it lately.  Just my 2 cents worth...

[Gulnyr]

Ok... so to add on to this, I have a problem when a group of people who are allowed are standing in Hempstead having a conversation and a banned raced character walks up and just stands there and nothing is done about it.  I understand that if a GM is not on, then there's not a whole lot we can do about it, but I think it is poor rp, and I've seen way too much of it lately.  Just my 2 cents worth...

Just for clarification, which part is poor RP, that the original group says nothing when at least the Lawful ones probably should or that the banned-race character is there despite what should be better detection at the gate preventing it?  Or both?

[Alatriel]

Just for clarification, which part is poor RP, that the original group says nothing when at least the Lawful ones probably should or that the banned-race character is there despite what should be better detection at the gate preventing it?  Or both?

Well, one, my character is chaotic, so she has no faith that the laws of the city will do anything, and so far that belief has been upheld easily by the fact that there are dark elves, half ogres, and half giants in the city pretty much whenever they feel like it.  But given the fact that people know that a gm is not on, I think that they should at least be respectful enough to assume that the two guards stationed at the gate of the city wouldn't just let them walk on in like it's no big deal.  Once they're in, well there's not a whole lot that people can do except deal with the situation.  But please, if you play a banned-race character, such as a half-ogre, half-giant, or any part dark elf, don't expect an elf to just go up and be friendly.  If your character is that dumb, well that's fine, but as a player, don't expect it.  In my humble opinion that's one of those things you should take as a given.  So if a half-ogre/giant/dark elf or hell, dwarf, gnome or whatever else walks in on a conversation in elvish between several elves, don't expect them to suddenly switch to speaking common so that the general population can understand.  Most of the time, it is done anyways, but especially when the race is not even supposed to be allowed in the city upon penalty of arrest or death, well... you get my point.

I guess mostly I just wish people would at least notify the gm channel if they want to break the laws so that the laws are not mocked quite so much which makes for poor rp on all accounts because the situation simply shouldn't be happening with 2 guards at the gate and Trent walking around the city on patrol.

[Alatriel]

I just wanted to add, sorry for getting on my soapbox about this.  I have played too many games where people get away with things simply because they say "well, if a gm wants to do something about it, let them" and I think that is cheesy.  GM's can't always be around, they have lives and jobs and everything else too, and I think that players should just play their characters and stop being cheesy.  This extends to more than just the laws of port hempstead, but I love roleplaying, and when people start acting cheesy in any way, even if it is simply to think that they can be a jerk and then roll a charisma check and if they roll high people will like them... it doesn't work and it makes things frustrating and difficult for others.  You have to back things up with your actions in play.  And as far as the laws go... just follow them or expect and ask for the consequences.  

And yes, this is coming from the person who almost tried to get herself kicked out of the city or arrested herself   I don't have a problem with people breaking the laws as long as they're playing with a full deck of cards, and haven't just taken out the Aces so that they feel they are invincible.

[Nehetsrev]

I just wanted to add, sorry for getting on my soapbox about this.  I have played too many games where people get away with things simply because they say "well, if a gm wants to do something about it, let them" and I think that is cheesy.  GM's can't always be around, they have lives and jobs and everything else too, and I think that players should just play their characters and stop being cheesy.  This extends to more than just the laws of port hempstead, but I love roleplaying, and when people start acting cheesy in any way, even if it is simply to think that they can be a jerk and then roll a charisma check and if they roll high people will like them... it doesn't work and it makes things frustrating and difficult for others.  You have to back things up with your actions in play.  And as far as the laws go... just follow them or expect and ask for the consequences.  

And yes, this is coming from the person who almost tried to get herself kicked out of the city or arrested herself   I don't have a problem with people breaking the laws as long as they're playing with a full deck of cards, and haven't just taken out the Aces so that they feel they are invincible.

Sorry to go off-topic a bit here, but I wanted to add my view on situations involving characters that act like jerks and then roll charisma checks.  Since Charisma is really meant to be a determination of strength of personality and pressence, if a character acts like a jerk around me, and then rolls a high charisma check, I'll just play it off that they succeeded in making themselves look like that much more of a jerk and really supremely offended my character who isn't soon to forget the encounter.  In essense, your charisma attribute acts to amplify your character's perceived personality in whatever manner they act, thus nice actions will engender more positive responses with higher charisma, while mean actions will engender more negative responses with higher charisma.