The World of Layonara  Forums

Author Topic: Spell availability - Ultravision  (Read 611 times)

Nehetsrev

Spell availability - Ultravision
« on: October 22, 2009, 09:01:47 am »
Just curious after recently leveling up Emwonk I discovered that Ultravision isn't available to Sorcerors, but it is for Wizards (and many other classes of casters).  So, after thinking over whether to bother or not, I've finally decided to go ahead and ask, why isn't Ultravision available to Sorcerors?
 
The following users thanked this post: davidhoff, geloooo

Nehetsrev

Re: Spell availability - Ultravision
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 08:21:56 am »
So, with the LORE: Al'noth description in mind, there really isn't any reason at all why Sorcerors shouldn't be able to use all the same spells that Wizards can, and vice versa, right?
 
 So then, can we get all those discrepencies between what sorcerors and wizards can learn and cast fixed in the next update (such as the one with Ultravision)?
 
 Also, does this mean that, theoreticly speaking, Sorcerors ought to be able to duplicate the teleportation effect that Wizards in Layonara can achieve with their teleportation tomes?  Or are we saying that the spell-weaving of that particular effect is simply too complex for those with a natural knack for magic to ever, under any circumstances, pick up or intuitively create on their own?
 
 I'm just wondering, because it seems to me that the ability to cast the same limitted set of spells a few more times before having to rest again is a far cry less of a boon than being able to swap out spells to fit whatever situation lies ahead in the world of Layonara.  Especially if some of the spells aren't even available to be learned at level-up.
 

Dorganath

Re: Spell availability - Ultravision
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2009, 10:24:17 am »
You know, I'm really not sure why Ultravision would not be available to a Sorcerer, and I seem to remember my Sorcerer having access once upon a time.

Its possible there was a mistake made in one of our 3.20 and later updates. I'm not in a position to check that right now, unfortunately.

Quote from: Nehetsrev
So, with the LORE: Al'noth description in mind, there really isn't any reason at all why Sorcerors shouldn't be able to use all the same spells that Wizards can, and vice versa, right?

Mostly, and as far as Ultravision is concerned, I would say "yes".  There are a couple notable exceptions, however.
 
Quote
So then, can we get all those discrepencies between what sorcerors and wizards can learn and cast fixed in the next update (such as the one with Ultravision)?


What other discrepancies?

I know of this one and Time Stop, but the latter is an intentional thing and will not be changing.  If there are others, please bring them to our attention.
 
Quote
Also, does this mean that, theoreticly speaking, Sorcerors ought to be able to duplicate the teleportation effect that Wizards in Layonara can achieve with their teleportation tomes?  Or are we saying that the spell-weaving of that particular effect is simply too complex for those with a natural knack for magic to ever, under any circumstances, pick up or intuitively create on their own?

Though it's handled as an item and an "instantaneous" sort of effect, teleportation is actually a small ritual that a Wizard of some ability has been able to learn and perform, but still only with the aid of their Tomes.  This ritual aspect is the IC reason for it not being usable in combat, which OOCly is of course to prevent abuse.

So "in theory"...not really, at least not as a general thing.

Regarding the recently-posted LORE page on the Al'noth, specifically the last paragraph, "Spellweavers" is a term we're adopting for the MMO.  There is no distinction or differentiation between a "wizard" and a "sorcerer", as neither classification really exists for the MMO.  As it applies to NWN, except for Time Stop and Teleportation, there really shouldn't be anything available to Wizards that is unavailable to Sorcerers.


Quote
I'm just wondering, because it seems to me that the ability to cast the same limitted set of spells a few more times before having to rest again is a far cry less of a boon than being able to swap out spells to fit whatever situation lies ahead in the world of Layonara.  Especially if some of the spells aren't even available to be learned at level-up.

So that this is not missed or forgotten, please post this as a bug report.
 

Nehetsrev

Re: Spell availability - Ultravision
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2009, 12:25:43 pm »
Regardless of whether the new entry was written more with the MMO in mind, doesn't it also apply to the way magic works NOW in Layonara as well?
 
 
Quote
The Al'Noth is what spellweavers call the magical energy that makes spells happen.
The energy of the Al'Noth is channeled, or woven into patterns that in the end cause certain effects. These are commonly known as spells.

 Spellweavers are able to "see" this energy as they weave it, either by being taught or by having a knack for it.
 Most people believe that the magical energy of the Al'Noth is made available to all by the goddess Lucinda. Where she gets the energy from is unknown, but subject to a lot of theorizing.
Some say she is the embodiment of the Al'Noth and that the weaving of a spell is sharing the essence of Lucinda's being.
Others think this is a step to far and do not consider Lucinda and the Al'Noth to be the same thing, or even partially overlapping.
 A small group claim that the Al'Noth just is, and that even without a deity of magic it would still be there. This is of course considered heresy by the Lucindites who claim that without their goddess, there would not be any magic.
 
The magic of the Al'Noth covers things like elemental magic, necromantic magic, and illusions. Sometimes, the magic involving death has been called darkweaving but still considered spellweaving.
 Note: for the purposes of NWN, both sorcerors and wizards are classified as spellweavers. Wizards are those who have been taught to use the Al'Noth, sorcerors have the "knack".
 
 
 The above text seems to imply to me at least that both sorcerors and wizards use the same 'weaves' to create different magical effects.  The same verbal tones, the same somantic gestures, and even the same material components are required for each spell.  The only difference would be the method in which each receives the ability to cast a spell.  Wizards learn by the book, through study and training, while sorcerors 'just know' how to do it.  To say that a sorceror can 'just know' how to cast Gate (a 9th level spell available to wizards and sorcerors alike at level 18 provided they have high enough intelligence or charisma as is required), but can't 'just know' how to perform the teleportation ritual associated with the Tomes (available to wizards at level 14 when they can only cast up to 7th level spells) seems to me a little odd.  Maybe the Teleportaion Tomes ought not to be available until a wizard can cast an Epic spell, such as the incredibly complex Timestop?  Then the reasoning that it's just too complex for a sorceror to reproduce through natural talent makes at least a tiny bit of sense.  But I still fail to see why any arcane spells should be available to one class and not the other from a balance point of view.  Especially when wizards through their superior versatility of being able to change spells each time they rest already have a much bigger advantage in the NWN mechanics of the current incarnation of Layonara.
 
 ---------
 As to Ultravision, I was able to make a testing module using the Layonara hakpacks and create in it a sorceror.  There I found that the error is indeed limitted to the LORE description of the spell, and so I'll post in the LORE Bugs section of the forums in a few moments so that can be fixed.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Spell availability - Ultravision
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2009, 01:06:06 pm »
Fixed. [LORE]Ultravision[/LORE]
 

Dorganath

Re: Spell availability - Ultravision
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 02:45:54 pm »
Quote from: Nehetsrev
Regardless of whether the new entry was written more with the MMO in mind, doesn't it also apply to the way magic works NOW in Layonara as well?

Yes it does, at least to the 99% mark.  That last 1% is NWN and the class-based system we have in NWN, and through that the "flavor" of each class.
 
 
Quote
The above text seems to imply to me at least that both sorcerors and wizards use the same 'weaves' to create different magical effects.  The same verbal tones, the same somantic gestures, and even the same material components are required for each spell.  The only difference would be the method in which each receives the ability to cast a spell.  Wizards learn by the book, through study and training, while sorcerors 'just know' how to do it.  

Technically and mechanically, yes.  Though it's less just "knowing how" to do it and more like...having an intuitive feel for it...a "knack" as Ed described it of being able to do something without really knowing the "why" or "how" of it.  And it is that method of "learning" and whatnot that is the key difference between Wizards and Sorcerers and why Wizards possess a more diverse knowledge and ability with magic than Sorcerers.  At least that's how the D&D classes (to which we are still tied) are set up.

Quote
To say that a sorceror can 'just know' how to cast Gate (a 9th level spell available to wizards and sorcerors alike at level 18 provided they have high enough intelligence or charisma as is required), but can't 'just know' how to perform the teleportation ritual associated with the Tomes (available to wizards at level 14 when they can only cast up to 7th level spells) seems to me a little odd.  

Well it has been argued that the whole way in which Sorcerers are implemented in D&D (and thereby in NWN) is a little silly in that regard.  Wouldn't sorcerers have a whole other set of spell effects for most things, save the more "basic" in terms of forms (like magic/fire/electrical/acid missile spells, spells that go "BOOM" and the like) rather than be shoe-horned into the exact same spell list as Wizards?  Really, that's a topic for another thread. ;)

Regarding the specifics of a Gate spell from a level 18 Sorcerer...Well, I tend to agree in concept for a few reasons, but beyond that, one could make the case that Gate was the last step in a set of logical and gradual progressions through the various Summon spells as the Sorcerer gained in personal power and capability, having one day stumbled on the "knack"  of summoning something quite a long time ago.

Quote
Maybe the Teleportaion Tomes ought not to be available until a wizard can cast an Epic spell, such as the incredibly complex Timestop?  Then the reasoning that it's just too complex for a sorceror to reproduce through natural talent makes at least a tiny bit of sense.

Consider the dangers though of trying to teleport though natural talent as opposed to years of research before even attempting it. Imagine making the attempt and only partially teleporting oneself...or whisking completely away and ending up partially within a wall...or 20 feet below ground. With the way Sorcerers learn, achieving mastery of this particular discipline could be fatal.

Quote
But I still fail to see why any arcane spells should be available to one class and not the other from a balance point of view.  Especially when wizards through their superior versatility of being able to change spells each time they rest already have a much bigger advantage in the NWN mechanics of the current incarnation of Layonara.

I have some sympathy for you here, less so on the spell versatility and moreso on things like the lack of bonus feats and the lack of Spellcraft modifiers for CHA. On the flip side, Sorcerers have a greater freedom in how they use their "prepared" spells that Wizards do not. I also think they're vastly more interesting in a non-mechanical sense.

In any case, since this thread seems to have morphed into a request for Sorcerers to be allowed to teleport as well, it's fair to disclose that this has been granted to a Sorcerer by way of a WLDQ result.  It was not the intended goal of said WLDQ but rather a side effect of the WLDQ outcome.  Even so, it is more of a "bestowed ability" than anything learned in the normal sense, whether through study and experimentation like Wizards do or trial-and-error and practice-over-time as is more of the manner of Sorcerer "learning".  In any case, it's highly unlikely that Teleportation is going to be anything that sorcerers are simply granted at a certain level of mastery.

Quote
As to Ultravision, I was able to make a testing module using the Layonara hakpacks and create in it a sorceror.  There I found that the error is indeed limitted to the LORE description of the spell, and so I'll post in the LORE Bugs section of the forums in a few moments so that can be fixed.

Ah good. I thought that sounded weird.  Thanks for the follow-up. :)
 

Nehetsrev

Re: Spell availability - Ultravision
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2009, 07:47:24 pm »
Honestly, I'm not asking for sorcerors to be granted teleport at a given level.  I'm just asking for reasonable justification of why Wizards are given more benefits (in the form of teleportation at level 14, and the ability to learn Timestop at epic levels) when sorcerors are already at a disadvantage because they can't switch out their spells every time they rest.  You've provided some of that justification in explaining that because of their intense study of magic wizards can do what sorcerors cannot, though I don't entirely agree with it myself.
 
 Sure, the sorceror can cast his/her spells 'on the fly' and do so a few more times between resting than a Wizard can.  But let's face it, from the mechanical perspective of how spawns/areas are designed in Layonara in the NWN incarnation, wizards have the advantage by a long shot because they can change what spells they have available to cast to fit the challenges of the areas they're going into, whereas a sorceror is stuck with what few spells they know (until they level up again).
 
 On the other hand, mechanicly speaking, I think it's hillarious that an epic level wizard can't remember how to cast a cantrip he/she has known for years without first refreshing their memory of it from reading it in their spellbook again each time they've rested.
 
 In my opinion magic really ought to work more like it does for sorcerors than the way it does for wizards.  You learn the spell, and from then on you can cast it as often as you like as long as you have the energy to do so.  I mean seriously, can you imagine Gandalf telling Frodo, "I'm sorry, I can't blind the orcs again today, I only memorized one copy of that spell from my spellbook when I woke up this morning, but I could enhance these fireworks I brought to look like firey dragons four or five times if you'd like?  Or maybe if I whisper to a moth it can bring us some help before the orcs eat us alive?"  No!  Gandalf could cast the right spell at the right time, of course...
 
 Anyhow, now I've digressed.
 
 I am glad to hear that teleportation could possibly be learned as a CDQ/WLDQ reward by a sorceror though, and that there is that sort of flexability allowed.  Personally, I'd rather develop my own spell-versions to fit my character better than the default NWN spells do.  For instance, when Emwonk is casting Elemental Shield, it may look like a ring of fire around him due to mechanical limitations, and it may do fire damage, but in my own mind, I like to pretend that it's a ring of electricity, because that and cold are at Emwonk's core concept.  And while I think it'd be awesome to have the spell modifyed so the caster can sellect the type of element to be used at casting, I know that's not very likely to ever happen.
 
 Heh... what might be fun to earn from a CDQ would be a limitted-range combination damage and teleportation spell to "Ride the Lightning" to target foe's location while simultaneously zapping it for some damage and stunning/blinding/deafening it and foes in the immediate area.  Err..shucks, rambling on again...
 

Dorganath

Re: Spell availability - Ultravision
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2009, 07:53:43 pm »
Quote from: Nehetsrev
Personally, I'd rather develop my own spell-versions to fit my character better than the default NWN spells do.  For instance, when Emwonk is casting Elemental Shield, it may look like a ring of fire around him due to mechanical limitations, and it may do fire damage, but in my own mind, I like to pretend that it's a ring of electricity, because that and cold are at Emwonk's core concept.  And while I think it'd be awesome to have the spell modifyed so the caster can sellect the type of element to be used at casting, I know that's not very likely to ever happen.

It's possible sure.  There are several spells in-game that act differently for certain PCs, but each was the result of a WLDQ/ECDQ.
 
 
Quote
Heh... what might be fun to earn from a CDQ would be a limitted-range combination damage and teleportation spell to "Ride the Lightning" to target foe's location while simultaneously zapping it for some damage and stunning/blinding/deafening it and foes in the immediate area.  Err..shucks, rambling on again...

*points to his prior comment*
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Spell availability - Ultravision
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2009, 12:56:21 am »
Quote
On the other hand, mechanicly speaking, I think it's hillarious that an epic level wizard can't remember how to cast a cantrip he/she has known for years without first refreshing their memory of it from reading it in their spellbook again each time they've rested.

In my opinion magic really ought to work more like it does for sorcerors than the way it does for wizards. You learn the spell, and from then on you can cast it as often as you like as long as you have the energy to do so. I mean seriously, can you imagine Gandalf telling Frodo, "I'm sorry, I can't blind the orcs again today, I only memorized one copy of that spell from my spellbook when I woke up this morning, but I could enhance these fireworks I brought to look like firey dragons four or five times if you'd like? Or maybe if I whisper to a moth it can bring us some help before the orcs eat us alive?" No! Gandalf could cast the right spell at the right time, of course...


Although magic for the MMO is treated more in the way you suggest, traditional D&D wizards don't so much "memorize" a spell (though that's usually what that action is called) as pre-cast it. D&D sorcerers cast from energies within themselves whether innate or granted, while wizards have no innate connection to magic at all. What a wizard does is learn the ritual that manipulates the magical energies to do what he wants, and then performs the ritual. So, spell preparation for a wizard boils down to actually going through the entire ritual for the spell save for the very last component (s), usually called the "trigger" component(s). Again, speaking traditionally, many spells took/take anywhere from ten minutes to ten days to prepare. The average first level spell takes ten minutes to prepare, and the average ninth level spell takes ninety minutes to prepare. Now, assume a twentieth level wizard wants to cast a full gamut of 1st through 9th level spells on a given day. Say, five spells at each spell level. Do the math and you get that the preparation time is enormous, the better part of a day even. So, in traditional D&D, the given number of spells a wizard has to cast after each rest is the assumed amount of spells the wizard can reasonably prepare on a given day, so the player doesn't have to sit down and figure out exactly how long it will take to prepare his spells for the day. The assumption is also that you prepare that "maximum" number of spells each rest. Really, a wizard could prepare as many spells as he had the time to prepare and the magical know-how to control. And if a wizard didn't cast any spells one day, he wouldn't have to bother preparing those spells over again. They'd remain one step away from casting (the casting being when the wizard adds that final component, be it a command word, a regent, a gesture, or all of the above) until the wizard completed the spell. NWN obviously relies on the assumptions that there is a maximum reasonable number of spells a wizard has time to prepare in a day and that the wizard will always prepare up to a given number of spells. Really, PnP sorcs and wizards are reversed from NWN. Sorcs have always been more versatile, able to morph and change spells on the fly, but limited in number of spells. Wizards on the other hand, could spend a month doing nothing but preparing fireballs and then singlehandedly level an army of ten thousand men. Anywho, all that was to explain the NWN "absurdity" of why a wizard suddenly "forgets" a spell that he knows. It's not that he forgets; it's that he needs to recast (prepare) the spell, and for a wizard, that takes a lot longer than he has in combat, unlike a sorcerer who can summon the same spell in mere seconds.

Reminder: This is not how magic works for the MMO. See opening sentence.
 

Nehetsrev

Re: Spell availability - Ultravision
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2009, 08:11:24 am »
Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
Although magic for the MMO is treated more in the way you suggest, traditional D&D wizards don't so much "memorize" a spell (though that's usually what that action is called) as pre-cast it. D&D sorcerers cast from energies within themselves whether innate or granted, while wizards have no innate connection to magic at all. What a wizard does is learn the ritual that manipulates the magical energies to do what he wants, and then performs the ritual. So, spell preparation for a wizard boils down to actually going through the entire ritual for the spell save for the very last component (s), usually called the "trigger" component(s). Again, speaking traditionally, many spells took/take anywhere from ten minutes to ten days to prepare. The average first level spell takes ten minutes to prepare, and the average ninth level spell takes ninety minutes to prepare. Now, assume a twentieth level wizard wants to cast a full gamut of 1st through 9th level spells on a given day. Say, five spells at each spell level. Do the math and you get that the preparation time is enormous, the better part of a day even. So, in traditional D&D, the given number of spells a wizard has to cast after each rest is the assumed amount of spells the wizard can reasonably prepare on a given day, so the player doesn't have to sit down and figure out exactly how long it will take to prepare his spells for the day. The assumption is also that you prepare that "maximum" number of spells each rest. Really, a wizard could prepare as many spells as he had the time to prepare and the magical know-how to control. And if a wizard didn't cast any spells one day, he wouldn't have to bother preparing those spells over again. They'd remain one step away from casting (the casting being when the wizard adds that final component, be it a command word, a regent, a gesture, or all of the above) until the wizard completed the spell. NWN obviously relies on the assumptions that there is a maximum reasonable number of spells a wizard has time to prepare in a day and that the wizard will always prepare up to a given number of spells. Really, PnP sorcs and wizards are reversed from NWN. Sorcs have always been more versatile, able to morph and change spells on the fly, but limited in number of spells. Wizards on the other hand, could spend a month doing nothing but preparing fireballs and then singlehandedly level an army of ten thousand men. Anywho, all that was to explain the NWN "absurdity" of why a wizard suddenly "forgets" a spell that he knows. It's not that he forgets; it's that he needs to recast (prepare) the spell, and for a wizard, that takes a lot longer than he has in combat, unlike a sorcerer who can summon the same spell in mere seconds.
 
 Reminder: This is not how magic works for the MMO. See opening sentence.
 
 Yeah.... but my point still remains...  the great wizard Gandalf and his Halfling friend Frodo wouldn't get eaten by the Orcs because of a lack of preparation on Gandalf's part.  Call it preparation or memorization, the mechanical absurdity still remains.
 
 In PnP, it works okay because the passage of time for that preparation period can be fast-forwarded, or slowed down if the DM decides to interupt it with an encounter, or the DM can allow the rest of the party to perform actions while they're waiting on the wizard to do his/her thing.  In NWN, however, when not on quests and told they can't rest without permission, wizards can prepare and re-prepare their spells numerous times in the course of one day, based on however many minutes they must wait between resting due to their level.
 
 Increasing the length of time between rests really doesn't help the disparity between the wizard's flexibility from one rest to the next and the sorcerors lack of ability to change their repertoire of spells as often.  At higher levels, it doesn't seem to me that the sorceror's extra spell-slots/day is really that much of a compensation when specific spells for protection or combat are required in different areas that a sorceror may simply not have in their 'library' due to the number of different spells they're allowed to know.  
 
 Granted, maybe I'm having a much harder time of it with my own sorceror because he's specialized to using mainly electrical/cold (elemental) damage and protection spells.  He likely will never have or use Mindblank, Spellmantel, Haste/Mass Haste, Power Word: KIll, or Truesight, and that makes him less desirable in most parties from a mechanical standpoint.  Also, because of the way I've developed him and plan to develop him to fit his character, he may never be able to cast any spells beyond 7th level spells at all because I may never increase his charisma beyond where it is now.  I'm fine with these self-imposed quirks of his development because they add fun to the RP side of things, but at the same time I'm disheartened that there's not much he can do on his own anywhere in the game-world which makes it not so much fun to play, especially when there aren't as many people available to play with lately.
 

Dorganath

Re: Spell availability - Ultravision
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2009, 09:35:17 am »
Quote from: Nehetsrev
Granted, maybe I'm having a much harder time of it with my own sorceror because he's specialized to using mainly electrical/cold (elemental) damage and protection spells.  He likely will never have or use Mindblank, Spellmantel, Haste/Mass Haste, Power Word: KIll, or Truesight, and that makes him less desirable in most parties from a mechanical standpoint.  Also, because of the way I've developed him and plan to develop him to fit his character, he may never be able to cast any spells beyond 7th level spells at all because I may never increase his charisma beyond where it is now.  I'm fine with these self-imposed quirks of his development because they add fun to the RP side of things, but at the same time I'm disheartened that there's not much he can do on his own anywhere in the game-world which makes it not so much fun to play, especially when there aren't as many people available to play with lately.

Heh...I sympathize there.  I know Connor would have a much easier time if he bothered to summon or take Necromancy or Enchantment spells, but he never has (part of which is now humorously ironic after his WLDQ). And yes, it's a self-imposed restriction, and I'm happy with it, but it does cut off some avenues.
 

 

anything