The pantheon with its 28 deities is not aimed at ensuring each deity gets the same number of player characters, that's not the intent.The intent is to have a diverse pantheon that covers many views and thoughts, something which it does now.Pacifistic deities will inherently have less player characters than militant deities. This is because of the nature of the game NWN/D&D, where character advancement is through XP gained by combat for the most part.
Allright, I have a question to everyone out there. Why are so many people wanting an Az'attan that wields weapons and tries to find ways, loopholes or going through every written word with a fine comb in order to find a way to make that happen?
Az'atta forbids weapons for her clergy because she prefers her clergy not to kill or harm anyone. That is not to say they are not trained to defend themselves or those whom they have promised to protect from the violent and aggressive nature of others. Each hopeful is trained in the way of unarmed combat, usually in the style of the locality the temple exists in. Az'atta's clergy are never permitted to strike first. They may not, under any circumstances, use poison.
If you read the dogma, it states you shouldn't take up arms or armor.
(Az'attans working under the Sight) will only defend, so rescue missions are out of the question. Also, anyone who has violent tendencies will be removed from the volunteer group.
Az'atta's Sight is a guardian of sorts who works with a volunteer group of devout Az'zattans, typically of adventurer or mercenary stock.
I am not trying to find a loophole. I'm trying to find clarification. And, frankly, clarification is needed. Look at the LORE under "favored weapons and clothing" (which is really her dogmatic restrictions).These lines are in seeming opposition to what you are saying here. Line one says she prefers her clergy not to kill or harm anyone. The second says (taking away the double negative), that they still are "trained to defend themselves" and those whom they have promised to protect. Line three says explicitly that they're trained in "unarmed combat".
The truth is that the dogma, as written, is nearly indistinguishable from that of Toran (who also sees himself as defending the innocent). Do you understand why someone reading that might think you were effectively telling people that Az'attans are all Sacred Fists?
Protect the realms and rout evil wherever you find it. Raise up the weak and empower them so that they might see the strength and compassion of Toran. Seek out the servants of evil, most notably those who follow Corath and Pyrtechon, and rid the world of them. Be mindful of the Conducts of Virtue (Valor, Empathy, Conviction, Humility, Sacrifice, Honorable Combat, Restraint). The path away from our Leader can begin from a position of good as well as evil. Be a shining example of goodness and righteousness. Your word is your bond.
All creatures of Layonara are worthy of My mercy if they choose to accept it. Offer all creatures, regardless of past acts, a chance to accept My mercy, My redemption and My love. Venture forth into the world and use the gifts that I grant you to aid others wherever possible. Enjoy times of peace and try to uphold it, but do not be passive. Bring peace and redemption to all of Layonara in an active way. Do not, however, take up weapons or dress yourself in armor unless it is to prevent harm from coming to yourself or others.
Of course, from what you've written here, I thought that might not be what you intended, which is why I asked the question in the first place. Don't beat me up for asking questions, OK?
Actually, if you read the dogma, it says: "Do not, however, take up weapons or dress yourself in armor unless it is to prevent harm from coming to yourself or others." Since the only purpose of armor is to prevent harm from coming to yourself, there seems to be no effective prohibition from wearing armor at all times. I don't know, but would venture a guess, that Az'attan priests who venture to Arnax would pretty much do exactly that.
(Hey, you got to get your XP from somewhere.)
Again, a rescue mission seems to be a perfect scenario for "preventing harm from coming to others", which is what the statement seems to imply, and why I was asking for the clarification. Also, I'm having a hard time resolving the "no violent tendencies" directive you just gave here from the description that Az'atta's Sight works with a team derived from "mercenary and adventurer stock". Unhesitating willingness to use violence (when necessary) is a hallmark of adventurers. Violence for money is the job description of mercenaries.
QuoteAz'atta's Sight is a guardian of sorts who works with a volunteer group of devout Az'zattans, typically of adventurer or mercenary stock. Ed, not to be the nit pickle picker here, but you don't become an adventurer or a mercenary if you haven't trained and seen your fair share of battles. I really don't see how a flower weilding pro peace man would have become a mercenary in the first place or afterwards. IF one is not aspiring to become part of the clergy (ie becoming a cleric) they would fit perfectly into this type of person that would work as part of the people guarding and defending the church, but never to become clerics.Also if your adventurer or mercenaries, were unarmed.. well they wouldn't last long against a dark elf raiding party prone to exterminate every living being seen in and near the temple of az'atta.Just my two cents there.
which I think is also an unfortunately narrow and cartoon-like interpretation of Az'atta.
You understand that there's a difference between being trained to defend, which is a non-aggressive art, and being trained in more martial combat, right? The key factor in this is not the mechanics of what it takes to defend oneself or others but the intent. A true Az'attan would rather not harm and especially would prefer not to kill, but will only if that is the last resort available. A true Az'attan would not run up to hostile creatures, dance around to get their attention then beat the life out of them in "self-defense".
There's one thing that you should keep in mind in your consideration of this topic, and that is what is posted for all the deities are excerpts from a much larger write-up.
Isn't this more or less "finding a loophole" by your logic?
I'd say you really don't quite understand the mindset of the Az'attan faithful. Just roaming the world, and Az'attans tend to be migratory, going where they're needed, they would most likely travel unarmored, counting on faith and general good sense to keep themselves away from situations where they might be harmed or have to harm another.However, if there was such a situation, for example, if someone sought them out seeking redemption and escape from Evil Organization A, but that someone was pursued by agents of Evill Organization A to prevent this someone from "getting out", then yes, they quite possibly may arm and armor themselves.
Playing "Ed's Advocate" here just for the fun of it! I can think of at least one fictional but famous adventurer/mercenary from television who was against violence and especially guns. Angus MacGuyver! In the first season ol' Mac does freelance 'propblem solving' and espionage type missions for the U.S. government, it's not untill later as the series evolves that he begins working for the Phoenix Foundation. Oh wait! There's another fictional hero who's been around even longer (though admittedly not a mercenary, he is an adventurer for sure)! Get out your jelly-babies and sonic screw-drivers folks! It's The Doctor from Doctor Who! Heh... I'm in a mood.. must be from lack of sleep.
Well, Dorg, I'm trying to get Ed to clarify his thoughts so that I fully understand them, so responding to you here is much like (as my daughter might say) "talking to both mom and dad at the same time".
What bothers me most is that there is currently no reason given for why Az'attans do not use armor. Use of armor harms no one.
I don't understand what the mindset of the Az'attan faithful are supposed to be. As a world builder myself, what has been described doesn't seem to add up, so clearly I'm missing something.Let me first start out with an organizational maxim:[LIST=1]UnthreatenedUnrecognizableUnreachableDefendedArmedAlivePick up to five. You can't have all six. If someone wants to kill you, you'd better be either hard to see, hard to get to, hard to kill, or be capable of enough violence that you make people scared to attack you. If you can't manage one of those, you're dead.
A modern day equivalent would be a group of Israeli doctors who decided to go waltzing around Iraq trying to heal the sick and feed the homeless with large Stars of David sewn to their backs. Even if everyone agreed they were doing good deeds, nobody would be exactly shocked when the inevitable occurred.
I suddenly wonder which of us you think of as "mom". O.o
I`d say you really don`t quite understand the mindset of the Az`attan faithful. Just roaming the world, and Az`attans tend to be migratory, going where they`re needed, they would most likely travel unarmored, counting on faith and general good sense to keep themselves away from situations where they might be harmed or have to harm another. However, if there was such a situation, for example, if someone sought them out seeking redemption and escape from Evil Organization A, but that someone was pursued by agents of Evill Organization A to prevent this someone from "getting out", then yes, they quite possibly may arm and armor themselves.
Again, a rescue mission seems to be a perfect scenario for "preventing harm from coming to others", which is what the statement seems to imply, and why I was asking for the clarification. Also, I`m having a hard time resolving the "no violent tendencies" directive you just gave here from the description that Az`atta`s Sight works with a team derived from "mercenary and adventurer stock". Unhesitating willingness to use violence (when necessary) is a hallmark of adventurers. Violence for money is the job description of mercenaries. Quote from: Dorganath An Az`attan faithful would not purposefully put himself in a situation, no matter what you call it, whereby he would stand a chance of bringing harm to someone else. A "rescue mission", in the typical sense, is at its core a rather aggressive effort. Even if one tries to avoid violence, if the mission was detected and it came to fighting their way out, it`s likely an Az`attan would surrender, rather than harm people who may just be "doing their jobs" (i.e. guards). An Az`attan "rescue mission" might be more in line with months (or more) of infiltration and seeking a way "in" so to speak, or perhaps talks and negotiation rather than a covert and aggressive effort under the cover of darkness one night.
An Az`attan faithful would not purposefully put himself in a situation, no matter what you call it, whereby he would stand a chance of bringing harm to someone else. A "rescue mission", in the typical sense, is at its core a rather aggressive effort. Even if one tries to avoid violence, if the mission was detected and it came to fighting their way out, it`s likely an Az`attan would surrender, rather than harm people who may just be "doing their jobs" (i.e. guards). An Az`attan "rescue mission" might be more in line with months (or more) of infiltration and seeking a way "in" so to speak, or perhaps talks and negotiation rather than a covert and aggressive effort under the cover of darkness one night.
Quote from: HellblazerQuote from: Az`atta Az`atta`s Sight is a guardian of sorts who works with a volunteer group of devout Az`zattans, typically of adventurer or mercenary stock. Ed, not to be the nit pickle picker here, but you don`t become an adventurer or a mercenary if you haven`t trained and seen your fair share of battles. I really don`t see how a flower weilding pro peace man would have become a mercenary in the first place or afterwards. IF one is not aspiring to become part of the clergy (ie becoming a cleric) they would fit perfectly into this type of person that would work as part of the people guarding and defending the church, but never to become clerics.Also if your adventurer or mercenaries, were unarmed.. well they wouldn`t last long against a dark elf raiding party prone to exterminate every living being seen in and near the temple of az`atta.Just my two cents there.think (and Ed can correct me) that what`s being missed here is that the "adventurer or mercenary stock" might likely be redeemed and converted to Az`atta. Not all mercenaries are necessarily cut-throats or swords for hire. Your assumption seems to be that they became mercenaries and adventurers after finding Az`atta, where I say it could just as well be the other way around. They might be more "active" in their pursuits, but there are ways of serving Az`atta without just waking around with flowers in your hand and doves on your shoulders...which I think is also an unfortunately narrow and cartoon-like interpretation of Az`atta.
Quote from: Az`atta Az`atta`s Sight is a guardian of sorts who works with a volunteer group of devout Az`zattans, typically of adventurer or mercenary stock. Ed, not to be the nit pickle picker here, but you don`t become an adventurer or a mercenary if you haven`t trained and seen your fair share of battles. I really don`t see how a flower weilding pro peace man would have become a mercenary in the first place or afterwards. IF one is not aspiring to become part of the clergy (ie becoming a cleric) they would fit perfectly into this type of person that would work as part of the people guarding and defending the church, but never to become clerics.Also if your adventurer or mercenaries, were unarmed.. well they wouldn`t last long against a dark elf raiding party prone to exterminate every living being seen in and near the temple of az`atta.Just my two cents there.
Az`atta`s Sight is a guardian of sorts who works with a volunteer group of devout Az`zattans, typically of adventurer or mercenary stock.
Quote from: Dorganath You understand that there`s a difference between being trained to defend, which is a non-aggressive art, and being trained in more martial combat, right? The key factor in this is not the mechanics of what it takes to defend oneself or others but the intent. A true Az`attan would rather not harm and especially would prefer not to kill, but will only if that is the last resort available. A true Az`attan would not run up to hostile creatures, dance around to get their attention then beat the life out of them in "self-defense". Well, Dorg, I`m trying to get Ed to clarify his thoughts so that I fully understand them, so responding to you here is much like (as my daughter might say) "talking to both mom and dad at the same time". Still, I must point out that if your interpretation of Ed`s meaning is correct, then there is a much simpler description you could use that would remove all doubt as to what he wants. It`s this:"Az`attan Clerics may know combat skills from their lives prior to their redemption, but they are not adventurers and will never voluntarily enter any situation in which violence might be reasonably anticipated, even to save someone else`s life. This even includes going with adventuring parties merely as a healer. As such, they cannot act like "normal" PC, must decline any standard game quest that involves killing something, and are not allowed on any GM quest in which violence might be reasonably expected to occur.While they can act in self-defense, at least in theory, even when subject to attack by surprise, an Az`attan Cleric`s first instinct is not to fight, but rather, to run away.Therefore, we advise you not to play an Az`attan Cleric, unless you are an exceedingly dedicated roleplayer who likes playing permanently low level healers in entirely non-combat situations.Az`attan faithful who are not Clerics have a little more leeway to be adventurers, but should still be roleplayed as people who never act violently unless they think it absolutely necessary to help save others from violence."
You understand that there`s a difference between being trained to defend, which is a non-aggressive art, and being trained in more martial combat, right? The key factor in this is not the mechanics of what it takes to defend oneself or others but the intent. A true Az`attan would rather not harm and especially would prefer not to kill, but will only if that is the last resort available. A true Az`attan would not run up to hostile creatures, dance around to get their attention then beat the life out of them in "self-defense".
Isn`t this more or less "finding a loophole" by your logic? Quote from: SteveMaurer No. A finding (and using) a loophole is taking advantage of an aspect of a set of rules which allow for unreasonable exploitation. What I am doing here is pointing out that the rules, as written, are not self consistent, and requesting clarification one way or the other. What bothers me most is that there is currently no reason given for why Az`attans do not use armor. Use of armor harms no one.
No. A finding (and using) a loophole is taking advantage of an aspect of a set of rules which allow for unreasonable exploitation. What I am doing here is pointing out that the rules, as written, are not self consistent, and requesting clarification one way or the other. What bothers me most is that there is currently no reason given for why Az`attans do not use armor. Use of armor harms no one.
find ways, loopholes or going through every written word with a fine comb
If someone wants to kill you, you`d better be either hard to see, hard to get to, hard to kill, or be capable of enough violence that you make people scared to attack you. If you can`t manage one of those, you`re dead.
Az`attans don`t merely have Baeron Ca`Duz cultists out to get them, they have Corathites as well. They wear their Az`attan cloaks like great big targets on their back, wander in places where they`re easy to ambush, seemingly have no effective defenders, and go unarmed (and maybe unarmored). This all is done in an exceedingly violent world, not a corner of which seems safe.
Absolutely right. They wouldn`t walk into Arnax and knock on the door of the temple of Corath and say they`re there to redeem them. They may be pacifists but they`re not stupid.Also, on that note of them (and Az`atta) not being stupid, that`s why they are trained to defend themselves. They walk around clearly marking themselves as Az`attans, but that doesn`t mean they`ll just let themselves be killed or that Az`atta would just let her followers be killed. Her church would only have been short lived if that had been the case.Consider their unarmed combat training to be a form of aikido, let me quote its founder: To control aggression without inflicting injury is the Art of Peace.
Dorg`s interpretation is correct there, please also refer to my aikido comment above. I don`t entirely agree with your "much simpler description" as its tone seems to be derogatory.
Consider everything you have read about Az`atta and the image she wants her clergy to have. It`s an image of openness, honesty, peace, non-violence and redemption for all. Wearing armor for all to see makes you look like you are willing to do violence, accept violence or come across as aggressive. This would not fit in the image that Az`atta want to spread so therefore she has mandated that they shouldn`t be wearing armor unless needed to prevent harm to come to themselves or others.
I kind of thought you were hinting at an Aikido equivalent. But D&D does not (unlike more modern game systems), allow someone to specialize in defense only. About the only way to model this (and compensate for the restrictions you put on them), is to give Clerics of Az'atta the "Monk AC Bonus" (Wisdom modifer to DC so long as you are unarmored).
You've written them up as flower children - who are being stalked by the Mafia (Corathites), and Al Qaeda (Ca'Duzites), in a world that has little or no law to it.
And while you keep saying they're not stupid, you have explicitly forbidden them from doing things that are remotely smart.
The only thing you've come up with to allow them to still be alive is anticipation and avoidance: they don't go knocking on the Corath temple door in Arnax. But Corathites are hard to anticipate, because they don't wave a skull and crossbones from a mile away. Instead, members of Cortath's church are all disguised. They'll fake an injury and then plant the poison dagger in the Cleric who tries to heal them (or use any one of hundreds of other methods of killing the undefended Az'attan).
Medicines sans Fronteers does a lot of the same work that you say Az'attans do, but they're not so stupid as to go traipsing around a war zone without a whole bunch of local armed bodyguards and flak jackets. And the people they help get it, but only after they leave their guns at the door.
Now there is one other possibility, which is pure GM fiat. Az'attans are not killed - because, well, you say so.
By the way, given the strict rules she has, and the emphasis on "openness" "honesty", and an expressed unwillingness to rescue people even through sneakiness, it seems like she really should be "Lawful" (or perhaps "Neutral").
- The clergy can be accompanied by protectors from Az'atta's Sight.
I am not concerned with D&D at all. The handbook is written with the new MMO in mind, not with compatibility with D&D.
If that limits the playability of Az'attan clerics in NWN, so be it. And as a side note, it didn't change much from what it was like for the past 5 years.
If you compare Corath and Baraeon Ca'duz to those two real life examples, then your understanding of both these deities is incorrect. The Corathites are far more concerned with molding the world to their desired shapes than seeking out every Az'attan and killing them. As for the Ca'Duzites, they're occupied far more with their power plays in The Deep
Also, the world has plenty of law, the more lawless places are Belinara, the Dragon/Serpent Isles, the Northern Isles. Mistone, Dregar, Alindor, Voltrex, Tilmar, Corsain, Vanavar are all pretty civilized and have judicial systems.
An Az'attan wouldn't be as naive to just heal anyone without attempting to check the divine relation.
Medecins sans Frontieres would be more like Aeridinites, MSF doesn't go and try to convince despots or warlords to repent and see the errors of their ways.
As mentioned, it's written with the new MMO in mind, we will not have a restricting alignment system but go by the mantras that have been added to each deity. For Az'atta these are Forgiving, Idealistic, Peaceful and Selfless. You will see that everything I have said so far is in line with these mantras.