The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: Kajun on April 29, 2009, 07:15:19 pm
-
So I chose to start Gorje in Fort Vehl. Indeed it is seedy, but there is not that much going on in the fort...no actual thieves guild (portrayed or player run it seems) and very little to do. I know Layo is all about player interaction and questing..along with DM involvement. But lets face it, soloing happens especially in the lower levels (1-6 especially)....but all an 18 str, lvl 1-3 Fighter can handle here is Skeletons and Ghouls? And hardly at that? Ouch. Not only is it dull, but all that work on the background to get approved and in game, gets under-cut by dieing a lot alone; it is nice that you do not get a nasty penalty for dieing but it does seems rather hard to believe your hero prowess after awhile of re-spawning. Is there a tool or area in-game, for players of approximate level to go to to RP up and gather to adventure together? Or is it all quest based through DM planning?
The trouble seems to be the balance of lowbie, or solo, areas...there is not much for starting characters it seems. The skeli's in the Vehl crypt have Damage Resistance of 4-6, hand out 2-8 average damage (for levels with only 6-30 HP???whoa) and healing supplies are expensive and rare as is any gear in Layo...just seems even a small party of 1-3 adventurers levels 1-4 could get their arses handed to them with ease and little reward even in a Skeliton crypt. I know the Skeli's are easy for a balanced group, but perhaps the Vehl Crypt should be party only and another 'training area' could be set up? Is Layo always going to be quest and DM intensive always and only? Ever thought to add solo, npc labor and leg work quests...at least there are none in fort Vehl, except the Mummy Dust and experimental doctor? Folks can get there character started on a few levels (1-3) and generate some character development on their own a little. I do not know about the other locations in Layo, but at least a rogues, a mages, a clerics, a fighters/monks and a labor quest would be good...along with this you can give history and flesh out the locations and world more then what is available OOC in the start area.
Just thoughts and observations...still love what I have experienced so far! Great server(s) and crew here!
Thanks,
Kajun
-
I'm writing up a "lowbie" guide right now, in character. The first one is: "where not to go if you don't want to be killed", but I have others I'm thinking about.
Here are a few things not in Lore that nobody tells you about:
1] There are "flags" around which give experience if you look at them (one time only, of course). Unfortunately, they're not in Vehl.
2] There are GM quests set up for low levels to help with your exp. And usually, GMs are quite generous with them. There is one going on tomorrow. See this (http://forums.layonara.com/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=11572&day=2009-4-30&c=3), for instance.
3] The real problem is that most people here play PCs who aren't beginners, so it's hard to get a real party going. Still, just because your a beginner, it doesn't mean high powered PCs won't help you. So introduce yourself to everyone (in character), and ask. That's how I found out about the flags, for instance.
4] You can get some pretty good equipment by gathering items and putting them into "boxes" and selling them. The best crafters don't like foraging for ingredients, so they pay good money (usually in credit) for them.
5] You can get decent XP by doing a little basic crafting yourself. I would recommend nearly any fighter learn how to brew beer (or at least Malt Barley) for instance. Not only can you get XP, but your character will eventually be able to drink his own stuff.
I'm going to also send you a PM for our two PCs to meet. I can show you around.
p.s. I'm not a GM.
-
There are a lot of things that can be handled solo, but it is encouraged to work in groups. (and that mummy isn't going down if your soloing... I'll just put that out now...)
as for getting a group together... There is a lake near Hempstead that gets plenty of traffic at times, and you are bound to meet some one... also, don't be afraid to poke someone and check if they're up for a bit of RP. (heck, I do it a lot.... but I try not to impose... :p )
also, if your looking for a jump, look for a low level quest and participate. Rp is more rewarding than grinding away. (albeit, a lot of XP is generated from fighting, but you still get nice chucks for RP.)
hope this little bit was somewhat insightful.
(wait till you met the skunks... :) )
PS: try naming your weapon...
-
*mutters about slow typing*
-
I'm writing up a "lowbie" guide right now, in character. The first one is: "where not to go if you don't want to be killed", but I have others I'm thinking about.
Here are a few things not in Lore that nobody tells you about:
1] There are "flags" around which give experience if you look at them (one time only, of course). Unfortunately, they're not in Vehl.
2] There are GM quests set up for low levels to help with your exp. And usually, GMs are quite generous with them. There is one going on tomorrow. See this (http://forums.layonara.com/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=11572&day=2009-4-30&c=3), for instance.
3] The real problem is that most people here play PCs who aren't beginners, so it's hard to get a real party going. Still, just because your a beginner, it doesn't mean high powered PCs won't help you. So introduce yourself to everyone (in character), and ask. That's how I found out about the flags, for instance.
4] You can get some pretty good equipment by gathering items and putting them into "boxes" and selling them. The best crafters don't like foraging for ingredients, so they pay good money (usually in credit) for them.
5] You can get decent XP by doing a little basic crafting yourself. I would recommend nearly any fighter learn how to brew beer (or at least Malt Barley) for instance. Not only can you get XP, but your character will eventually be able to drink his own stuff.
I'm going to also send you a PM for our two PCs to meet. I can show you around.
p.s. I'm not a GM.
One request:
If you write up such a guide, do not disclose specific locations of things like flags, quests, and so forth. Part of the intent there is for exploration and discovery and the RP that goes with it.
It's fine to do so in an IC way, but not OOCly in a "how to" guide.
-
Rather than tell you I'd do nothing to ruin Layonara's well deserved reputation for roleplaying, why don't I give you a bit of what I'm writing, and you can decide for yourself.
(This is only slightly off topic, since the topic is about the balance between discovery and frustration for new players. And I'm keenly aware of this, being such a new player myself.)
This was the ad (http://forums.layonara.com/rumour-has/224352-posted-vehl-hempstead-near-places-where-unseasoned-newcomers-frequent.html). And here is the starting text:
- - - - - - -
A Traveler’s Guide to Mistone
Introduction
Dear Reader,
If you have just been given this guide by a merchant who is distributing it because of my recommendations of their store, please do not discard it immediately. I assure you that the information contained herein is of utmost importance, and may prevent your untimely death.
You are interested in living, aren’t you? Good. Then read on. I promise not to waste your time.
-Lady Z
General Ways to Enhance Your Survival While Traveling
Travel is dangerous. Layonara may have always been a desperate place, but it is absurdly so now. Likely due to magics from various Gods of entropic predation, all that you meet attacks with suicidal mania. Nothing ever flees, even if badly wounded, and pursues until either you or it are dead. So prepare for travel as you would for war, expecting assaults from the most unlikely quarters: hawks, skunks, rats, deer, shrubbery. See the pretty little butterfly? It’s trying to lick you to death.
To deal with this fact of life, please consider the following suggestions:- Befriend an experienced companion. Guides can point out dangers better than any book, even this one. Locals can point out who is trustworthy in this regard.
- When traveling alone, stick to the roads. Roads are safe. But do not veer off them even the slightest bit. And if a road peters out, so usually does the safety.
- Your greatest advantage is your superior eyesight. When traveling to unfamiliar regions alone, walk slowly and scan the horizon constantly. You will likely see hostile creatures before they see you.
- When doing the above, walk with stealth, even if you believe yourself not to be stealthy. Distance aids your abilities. But do not depend on stealth either: believing yourself undetectable and learning otherwise when too close, is a way many curious travelers die.
- Invisibility is even better than hiding, but it too is not perfect. Spells and potions are time limited, and many actions can cause you to be seen. Further, even being Invisible does not make you undetectable. Highly sensitive enemies can become aware of you, and once they do, they will not lose sight of you. To combat this, you can walk stealthily while invisible, which makes you nearly impossible to detect.
- To help your scanning, stay close to impassable areas: rock walls, tree lines, rivers, etc. That way, as you walk, you need not scan those areas. Work from the edges of a region, in to the center.
- If you are spotted by something that charges you – do not charge it! Instead, back up along the path you already know is safe. The creature charging you may be a sentry of a much larger gang. Surviving the attack of the sentry is much easier than the entire gang.
- You can run away, especially if you are very fleet of foot (or cleverly use magically enchanted roads or magics to speed yourself), but usually all this does is give you time to prepare. Sometimes, however, the time to drink an emergency healing potion, is all you need.
- You may think to flee long distances between entire regions, pitting your endurance against that of your pursuers. But often, as you are usually already badly wounded, tracking you is easy, and you will be ambushed as you arrive. Still, as a desperation move, it can work, especially if the region to which you are moving has an enchanted road that lets you put real distance between you and your pursuers.
- If you are attacked while indoors, consider immediately retreating to a previous room known to be safe. Some enemies may follow you, but rarely, due to the choke point, do all of them.
- For inexperienced travelers, purchase an ox as soon as possible. Oxen are not merely useful as pack animals. They can also be a critical distraction while you flee. And do not be surprised when sneaking back to the place of your ambuscade (in vain search for your ox’s pack), you find your animal grazing happily beside the corpses of the creatures that overwhelmed you. Oxen are not to be trifled with. Mine has killed panthers. Please note that ox cannot fight while tied down, and they will charge anything, preventing stealth in retreat as an option.
- If you become injured, heal yourself quickly. Do not be cheap, because you never know where your next blow is coming from, or how hard it will be. Rest often as well, in safe areas.
- Take care not to assume that simply because you killed some creatures in an area, that more of the same will not arrive unexpectedly. If you have decided to explore a place, remember to account for the difficulty of retreat when judging how far to go.
- Remember, finally, that no one plans to die. Death nearly always comes via underestimation and surprise. So remember: arrogance is entertaining, but it is also a weakness and hallmark of inferiority. Do not be weak, or inferior, and you will be allowed to survive.
A Listing of Mistone’s Regions and their Relative Safety
[to be continued]
-
See the pretty little butterfly? It’s trying to lick you to death.
I died laughing.
-
1] There are "flags" around which give experience if you look at them (one time only, of course). Unfortunately, they're not in Vehl.
Actually, the flags are mentioned in LORE. See [LORE]GameSystems[/LORE] and [LORE]Exploring and Spelunking[/LORE].
If you have not already, visit the GameSystems page. Sooooo much is explained there. And we're still adding content. (I'm trying to get all the "/o" self-tell stuff in there, for instance.).
And Steve, you forgot to mention that you shouldn't go anywhere without your towel. ;) Don't Panic!
-
Hi, Gorje. Start hiking the roads, cautiously. Many players will help you, but it takes time to run across one with time right at that moment. Sala did what she could for you yesterday with potions and spells (her player had obligations elsewhere), and planned to come back to take you sight-seeing as soon as she could. Unfortunately, that was after your play time. This is not a place where one progresses quickly. Patience and caution are necessary for survival.
-
Many thanks to all of ya! Very good stuff and advice. Sala, thank you for your help..for which I would not have been able to get much of anything done yesterday. I will make more of a habit of hiking cautiously and looking for friendly folks to aid Gorje in his ...training and occasional spelunking :p.
Thanks again! If ya see me on, don't hesitate to ask me for some Rp time or combat help!
Kajun
-
If you haven't yet, I'd suggest going to irc.layonara.com and hopping on our IRC channel, it really is the best way to get to know people here OOCly, which helps a lot to find IC contact.
Also, you can stalk the server status page (under the "layonara links" dropdown menu) and I read over character submissions (I do both of these shamelessly) so that when see a fellow lowbie on-line who you think your character would like, you can send them a tell and ask if they want to join you.
-
and never forget to look up
help may be close though all be it a bit smaller then you predict
-
Welcome to Layonara! A lot of good advice above that will help you get started.
But also don't feel bad if you run into someone an they don't stop to chat or help IC. Gorje being a half-giant will cause some to avoid him. My characters most likely would not stop and chat. One of them would probably pull her bow out if he approached her. :D But I would be more than happy to help OOC if you have any questions. So feel free to send a tell.
-
@SteveMaurer:
Nice work on that, but I have to ask you to remove the depictions you have in there about luring and attempting to flee.
Luring enemies one at a time is a form of AI and mechanics abuse that we do not condone.
Attempting to flee enemies when you are facing overwhelming odds is also something we like to discourage. Yes, we've heard all the arguments, but the problem is that your character is not the only one on the server, and more often than not, fleeing has left creatures in places where they ambush other, unsuspecting characters, often enough causing them to lose soul strands and so forth.
So please, continue your work with these guides, but do refrain from statements, IC or OOC, that imply abuse of mechanics, AI or other such discouraged actions. We're all here to have fun, and it's no fun to have your play time ruined by someone else's selfish leavings.
-
Hi Dorganath,
Luring monsters, I thought it was generally agreed, involves monsters that you already know are there. If you don't know they're there (until they start charging), by definition it isn't luring. You can't lure by accident.
I also need to point out that many maps depict much larger regions than the map itself represents. So it is not at all clear that a lookout or guard would automatically be able to inform absolutely everyone to go attacking a lone traveler. To quote Leanthar (http://forums.layonara.com/447103-post31.html) on this topic, caves are built to scale, but regions are not. And since this is largely intended as a travel guide, it's not at all abusive to advise PCs to take pretty standard in-game precautions.
Finally, I think there needs to be a clearer distinction made between the behavior expected of higher level PCs played by experienced players, and lower level ones played by "lowbies". To use your own standard, "Does this feel wrong or like cheating?" - it feels like cheating to me when a high level PC who already knows a spawn exists, uses limits of the game engine to take on high powered groups to maximize their XP. (And this, I've noticed, happens quite a lot.)
But you will never convince me that a low level PC run by a brand new player either, A] Being cautious about not charging, or B] Running for their life from a scary monster, is in any way an abuse. Simply because that is an extremely natural reaction - regardless of how poorly written the NWN AI engine is.
And it's not as dangerous either. I don't leave spawns anymore. But the last one I did was when my PC was 4th level and experimenting with invisibility. Trying to figure out whether it broke the effect (or was even possible to do while invisible), she decided to "Taunt" a chicken. This resulted in her being immediately ambushed by every other chicken. And chickens are dangerous in Layonara, especially to low HP wizards. She ended up running for her life chased into the Hempstead fields by the entire manially enraged flock. Buck-aaaak!!
I'm pretty sure that no one else would come to harm from that, unless they died laughing.
-
Buck-aaaak!!
**snickers**
-
As I've said, I've heard all the arguments and rationalizations. However, rather than dismiss your well-written and thought-out response, let me take a moment to further hone my points.
Hi Dorganath,
Luring monsters, I thought it was generally agreed, involves monsters that you already know are there. If you don't know they're there (until they start charging), by definition it isn't luring. You can't lure by accident.
This comment was in direct response to this:
If you are spotted by something that charges you – do not charge it! Instead, back up along the path you already know is safe. The creature charging you may be a sentry of a much larger gang. Surviving the attack of the sentry is much easier than the entire gang.
This is an IC way of describing the OOC tactic of luring one at a time away from the pack. So I'm not talking about an entire spawn coming at you, but rather getting in range of one, waiting for that one to spot you (miraculously not notify his buddies only 10 feet away) and come after you. This is what I refer to as luring and what is at its core an abuse of AI.
I also need to point out that many maps depict much larger regions than the map itself represents. So it is not at all clear that a lookout or guard would automatically be able to inform absolutely everyone to go attacking a lone traveler. To quote Leanthar (http://forums.layonara.com/447103-post31.html) on this topic, caves are built to scale, but regions are not. And since this is largely intended as a travel guide, it's not at all abusive to advise PCs to take pretty standard in-game precautions.
Yes, if there's one creature that wanders away from the pack, and by a sufficient distance, then it's another matter completely. When there's one that's just slightly closer to you than the rest, it's another. It's a very fine line, and when it happens once for a given spawn, then that's just coming across the scout, as you call it. When people go and "thin the herd" by doing this over and over for every spawn they come across, that is not.
Finally, I think there needs to be a clearer distinction made between the behavior expected of higher level PCs played by experienced players, and lower level ones played by "lowbies". To use your own standard, "Does this feel wrong or like cheating?" - it feels like cheating to me when a high level PC who already knows a spawn exists, uses limits of the game engine to take on high powered groups to maximize their XP. (And this, I've noticed, happens quite a lot.)
I actually find it pretty annoying actually when experienced players memorize spawns and respawn rates, parse their logs for DCs, AC, etc, go back and mathematically determine the right combination of equipment, buffs and so forth. It does happen, and I don't particularly like it, but that's me.
And don't get me started on people who time their buffs using a clock. ;)
However, it's still different than outright advocating something we've stated over and over again is not an acceptable thing. When we say "no luring" we mean that for everyone, whether we're talking new or old players, high or low level characters. Most of our encounters are balanced and intended for groups (sometimes even just 2-3 characters). So if you go soloing but the only way you can is to pick off creatures one by one, then that is abusive, and you should try and find another way.
But you will never convince me that a low level PC run by a brand new player either, A] Being cautious about not charging, or B] Running for their life from a scary monster, is in any way an abuse. Simply because that is an extremely natural reaction - regardless of how poorly written the NWN AI engine is.
Well we'll have to agree to disagree, but then I think you are homing in on the wrong part of my point here. Being cautious is great. Not rushing a spawn is great. And as has been covered more times than I care to count on these forums, it is a natural reaction to flee from the Great Big Drooling Beast.
But that really misses the intent of why we say don't flee. So let me try to break this down for you a little better.
Let's say you flee and the creature pursues you through several transitions and eventually catches you at one of them. Monsters transition almost instantly, whereas you do not. They can start beating on you before you even finish loading into the area. But your PC will be there, and it will get damaged. So what happens if you die? Well, some creatures may hang around, actually, and because someone may come through that transition unsuspecting, they can get jumped and killed because you ran away. What if they lost a Soul Strand and half the gold they had on them on the way to go purchase a house?
So yes, it's a natural reaction to flee, but let's look at the other side of things. A creature just protecting its territory (and yes, you, the PC, are the invader) will likely not chase you across half a continent. Likewise, if it happens to get the best of you, it's not going to just hang out forever and see who else he can catch. Lastly, if some other character were approaching that position, he'd more than likely see the threat waiting for him and be able to avoid it. But these things are all consequences of mechanics.
But for all the technical explanations, the #1 reason we ask you not just flee across areas is that this is not a single-player game. There's other people here. You should always keep this in mind. How upset would you be if someone else's mistake cost you a death or a loss of some kind...a mistake you neither could predict nor prevent?
Having said this, we do have a system that should prevent creatures from being left at transitions, but it is not 100% foolproof, as sometimes these things just do not fire properly due to lag or server load.
So all we're asking here is some consideration for other players. There's no need to posture with "You'll never convince me..." I don't want to convince you. I want you to understand our reasoning.
And it's not as dangerous either. I don't leave spawns anymore. But the last one I did was when my PC was 4th level and experimenting with invisibility. Trying to figure out whether it broke the effect (or was even possible to do while invisible), she decided to "Taunt" a chicken. This resulted in her being immediately ambushed by every other chicken. And chickens are dangerous in Layonara, especially to low HP wizards. She ended up running for her life chased into the Hempstead fields by the entire manially enraged flock. Buck-aaaak!!
I'm pretty sure that no one else would come to harm from that, unless they died laughing.
I'm not talking about chickens, but I do appreciate your attempt at levity and perhaps to poke fun at a request I thought was a simple one. However, as you undoubtedly know by now, there are plenty more dangerous things on Mistone that would tear up a low-level character, especially one caught unprepared.
In any case, I think I've explained my reasoning and I have no desire to debate the nit-picky details of what is "realistic" or "dangerous" or whatever. I'm happy to accept we will have differences of opinions, but I point back at my original request:
So please, continue your work with these guides, but do refrain from statements, IC or OOC, that imply abuse of mechanics, AI or other such discouraged actions. We're all here to have fun, and it's no fun to have your play time ruined by someone else's selfish leavings.
It's a simple request.
Either agree or don't, but it is a long-standing request to the community to not do such things. I'm only asking that you respect that, and not rationalize your way around them.
-
If you are spotted by something that charges you, do not charge it! Instead, back up along the path you already know is safe. The creature charging you may be a sentry of a much larger gang. Surviving the attack of the sentry is much easier than the entire gang.
Forgive me if this comes across as antagonizing or argumentative, but what's read into the above "advice" seems like a matter of communication/interpretation. When I read the above I did not see this as "an IC way of describing the OOC tactic of luring," nor do I think showing how to lure was the intention behind this particular point. I instead read that statement as advice on how to escape a mob you never intended to engage in the first place, where you don't even want to fight the "scout" and much less the whole group. In other words, I read it as a way to avoid fights rather than to solo groups via luring. However, regardless of intention or the way I read the advice, if one person reads it as Dorg seems to have interpreted the statement, then a rewording may be in order.
-
Forgive me if this comes across as antagonizing or argumentative, but what's read into the above "advice" seems like a matter of communication/interpretation. When I read the above I did not see this as "an IC way of describing the OOC tactic of luring," nor do I think showing how to lure was the intention behind this particular point. I instead read that statement as advice on how to escape a mob you never intended to engage in the first place, where you don't even want to fight the "scout" and much less the whole group. In other words, I read it as a way to avoid fights rather than to solo groups via luring. However, regardless of intention or the way I read the advice, if one person reads it as Dorg seems to have interpreted the statement, then a rewording may be in order.
@Milty and everyone....
My first response was a simple request to not make references to such tactics. It's a fine line as everyone knows between "good tactics" and abuse. And as we know, we see things on the forums that go uncontested, and the people figure they're OK to do. And we also know that some will continue to push the boundaries of what is OK until it gets out of hand.
I really didn't wish to get into a point-by-point discussion of how realistic or reasonable such a thing is. I made a simple request to not make references to tactics such as luring and fleeing in what may be seen by many new players as a semi-official "How-to" guide.
Incidentally, I fully support a grass-roots effort such as that. I think the idea behind it is great, but I simply wanted to head off any points of contention before they became bigger issues.
As for your last comment, you are 100% correct. Someone besides me, who is not a GM but a long-time player, read that and saw them as descriptive of luring and fleeing, saw the GM Team not making mention of it and wondered whether or not these things were now allowed because the Team wasn't commenting.
So again, it was always ever meant as a respectful request. I did not wish to make it a mandate, nor did I wish to have a lengthy discussion or debate on the nuances or wording, what would happen if it was a more realistic situation, the scale of areas vs. reality, and so on.
-
*uses improved evasion to avoid the above*
It is perhaps worth mentioning that one could request a guide to show them around. The Stormcrest Shack was intended as such, and there are a surprising amount of characters that were called stormcrest guides, even if only a few of them acted in that capacity. There are a lot of unaffiliated characters willing to help out requests regardless, but it can be cool to hook up with those looking to do it, that often know a bit about the areas.
I know it's not really a direct response/solution, but it can be fun to try. It would be cooler if there was a forum for requests, but just tossing a thread down in the Wild Surge or something saying you're looking is likely to get several responses.
For the purposes of exploring and learning and just hanging out, or seeing somewhere specific... give it a shot. There are a few at least still around, heh.
Ye olde original announcement (http://forums.layonara.com/general-discussion/115566-stormcrest-guides.html)
An old IC advertisement (http://forums.layonara.com/wild-surge-inn/158782-need-guide.html)
As stated, however... most characters are happy to help out IC, and players tend to respond to tells helpfully even when their characters are naturally unfriendly.
-
I actually find it pretty annoying actually when experienced players memorize spawns
So that half the population of the server doesn't start feeling dirty inside - I'm going to add to this. Everyone memorizes spawns if they play long enough. We don't have dynamic spawns, and the brain is going to figure it out whether you like it or not. Everyone will come to memorize spawns and it's a sad side-effect of how good this server is at actually retaining players. We should be proud of this if anything.
I'm mostly just rephrasing it so the point can be made clear (as I'm assuming Dorg meant it) which is: You shouldn't be actively trying to figure these things out, nor play to them... because that ain' what the game's for eh?
:D
And on a different note!
I'm happy to guide anyone around who asks. There are hordes of folks here who will do the same. PM me, PM them. Ask in game, don't be afraid to send a tell if you're overwhelmed. Click on the guide... hey wait - Acacea beat me to it!!
-
I'm mostly just rephrasing it so the point can be made clear (as I'm assuming Dorg meant it) which is: You shouldn't be actively trying to figure these things out, nor play to them... because that ain' what the game's for eh?
Exactly correct. I know it's unrealistic to not remember where the spawns go, but for some it doesn't become a game of challenges and victories but rather a recipe book of things that stand in the way of XP and loot.
But, to each his own on that one.
-
Well let me say for the record that I'll be happy to rewrite what I wrote to make it more acceptable. The real issue I'm having trouble with is what to replace it with.
What exactly should I put in as a substitute for my current advice, which in OOC terms could be paraphrased, "fleeing is often useless, you are discouraged from doing it"? Somehow a recommendation to "always stay, fight, and die" doesn't exactly fit a guide about How Not to Die. Should I instead create some In Game explanation for Banning? ("Once any creature has ever seen you, the Gods expect you to be brave and fight it, whether you live or not. For if you flee you run the risk of having your soul ripped from your body and banished from Layonara forever. And even death is preferable to that!").
Again, the reason why this comes up time and time again is that fleeing is rather natural, especially for low level players and PCs. The Chicken thing may be humorous, but it was also real. My character would have died if she hadn't run away from those chickens, you understand? Died. And she would have had a 4% chance of losing a Soul Strand. 4% is very close to rolling a 1 on a 20 sided die. How many times have you rolled a 1?
Are you seriously telling people the policy is to die and risk losing a soul strand rather than run away from something you never intended to fight in the first place?
Maybe the best solution would be some in game admonition to "inform the Rolferein authorities" if a new PC might have left a spawn on the road. I could add an OOC comment about putting something into the GM channel. That way, a GM could clean up the spawn, admonish the PC not to make a habit of getting in over their head, and still have an acceptable in-character explanation.
Again - I'll change this to any rule you want. But to make an In Character guide, I have to have In Character explanations.
-
I would say something along the lines of "because fleeing can often drag creatures to chase you, and sometimes kill other characters or their animals, there are a wide variety of potions, stardusts, and items that can help you flee under the cover of darkness or invisibility, and a wise traveler always carries an assortment of these tools"
And on the memorizing spawns issue, I would just advise players to separate IC and OOC... its one thing that you know what a particular spawn is, its entirely different when your character says "wait! the orcs always have three sentries, one with a sword, and two with bows" - that's just cheesy, IMO.
Are you seriously telling people the policy is to die and risk losing a soul strand rather than run away from something you never intended to fight in the first place?
[. . .] I could add an OOC comment about putting something into the GM channel. That way, a GM could clean up the spawn, admonish the PC not to make a habit of getting in over their head [. . .]
Yeah, my impression is that, in general, you should take the fall, rather than fleeing and possibly killing someone else, because why should someone else suffer for your mistake?
Now, I don't think anyone is going to fault a level 1-3 for running away from a skunk or whatever; it happens. Most of us have been in that situation when we were new here. But its a bad habit to get into once you get to a higher level, and can do a lot more damage when you drag creatures.
-
Maybe it's the text-only communications, but I'm sensing some hostility in your writing. There's really no need for this.
Well let me say for the record that I'll be happy to rewrite what I wrote to make it more acceptable. The real issue I'm having trouble with is what to replace it with.
What exactly should I put in as a substitute for my current advice, which in OOC terms could be paraphrased, "fleeing is often useless, you are discouraged from doing it"? Somehow a recommendation to "always stay, fight, and die" doesn't exactly fit a guide about How Not to Die.
How about simply a warning about engagement and that often the creatures one may encounter are quicker, stronger and more observant than one may think. Urge caution in favor of the borderline advocating of breaking rules and requests from the GM Team.
Should I instead create some In Game explanation for Banning? ("Once any creature has ever seen you, the Gods expect you to be brave and fight it, whether you live or not. For if you flee you run the risk of having your soul ripped from your body and banished from Layonara forever. And even death is preferable to that!").
At first I wasn't even going to dignify this with a reply, as it seems inflammatory and over-the-top. At no point did I nor another team member mention banning. We don't, as a general rule, ban people on a whim or for something minor. I'm going to simply assume this was tongue-in-cheek and leave it at that.
Again, the reason why this comes up time and time again is that fleeing is rather natural, especially for low level players and PCs. The Chicken thing may be humorous, but it was also real. My character would have died if she hadn't run away from those chickens, you understand? Died. And she would have had a 4% chance of losing a Soul Strand. 4% is very close to rolling a 1 on a 20 sided die. How many times have you rolled a 1?
Are you seriously telling people the policy is to die and risk losing a soul strand rather than run away from something you never intended to fight in the first place?
Again, we've heard this all the time. No, we're not saying "stay and die" but that always comes in conflict with "be nice to other players."
And please, ease up on your tone. I know full well the chances of rolling a Soul Strand, or the likelihood of rolling a 1 on a d20. Anyone who knows my main character well enough knows he has, in fact, rolled that 1 in a really, really inopportune time. Right now, that same character is 31st level, and each death is like rolling a 1 or 2 on a d6, so yes, I'm very, very aware of how the chances fall. It happens to everyone.
It may not seem "fair" to stay and die (or at least go down swinging), but it's even less fair to go running off in a fit of self-preservation bringing your troubles to someone else.
Anyway, I know the issues very well, and my main character has lost a few of his Soul Strands to doing something silly, usually while soloing.
Again - I'll change this to any rule you want. But to make an In Character guide, I have to have In Character explanations.
Great! Keep it IC. I like everything else you had written there, at least in the intended spirit and purpose. Maybe even something like:
"Escaping your enemies by running is not as easy as one might think. Creatures in this land seem to possess superior speed and cunning in a pursuit. Be cautious when traveling in their lands if you go alone, or travel in groups to increase your chance of survival."
There's plenty of things you could say instead of making references that seem to advocate luring and fleeing. You seem to be a very creative person, so I have full confidence you'll come up with something!
-
Are you seriously telling people the policy is to die and risk losing a soul strand rather than run away from something you never intended to fight in the first place?
Nah. What we're saying is don't drag them into an area they're not supposed to be.
Go ahead. Run away. Just don't use an area transition. Yes, you might have to run in circles, and yes, you might run into something worse elsewhere in the area. But you won't create the the OOC problems everyone else is referring to.
-
Dorganath, I'm not intending to be hostile at all. I myself just started playing here, and am still trying to figure out all the unwritten rules of the place. Coming from a gaming environment like Team Fortress and Counterstike, where banning from people's servers is absolutely routine, I didn't realize that you would take offense that I would suggest putting an IG explanation in for the procedure. (And if you enter the words "banned site:layonara.com" into google, you get about 12600 hits, so it clearly isn't that uncommon.) But I assure you that I'm not trying to be insulting.
In terms of why I emphasized the chicken thing, which I think is where you got the idea that my tone was bad, I was only trying to counteract your original view that I was merely "poking fun" at your directive. I admit I was having a little fun at my own PCs expense, but I was just trying to point out that forbidding low level PCs from running does have a serious side too.
And I understand completely your point of view as well. I recently lost my first ox because someone left a spawn on the road - and no, it's not fun.
I'll see what I can come up with in terms of the guide, but I'm coming around to the idea that the real rules are simply too tied up with the specifics of Out of Character characteristics of the NWN game engine to keep the guide entirely IC. I'm going to have to put in a section specifically out of character to explain what you can and cannot do, and what you should do if you accidentally screw up.
And I'm still not exactly clear what you want people to do, if they leave a spawn near a road. Even if you stand your ground, fight, and leave a gravestone, that spawn is going to be there until it times out. The next person along may very well be hit by it. There really is nothing you can do. This is true for all the near-road spawns.
-
Character deaths aren't the only inconvenience caused by fleeing/dragging either. I've lost track of the number of oxen I've lost from other players dragging creatures through multiple areas, or into towns.
Heck, just the other day I had brought my ox with me into the Spirit Dunes, parked it near the transition to the area outside Spellgard and went off to kill the scorpions in the area to make the way safe for my ox. Only to return just in time to see my ox being killed by a gnoll from two areas away that someone else who'd fled the gnoll had drug there.
Just imagine how upset I'd be if that had happened to the horse I paid around 16,000 to 17,000 Trues for...
-
*pokes her nose in*
I remember how upset I was when Emie lost a SS to Bugbears that someone drug out in a well traveled area. I was not a happy player. :(
-
(And if you enter the words "banned site:layonara.com" into google, you get about 12600 hits, so it clearly isn't that uncommon.)
And because statistics do not exist in a vacuum...
Those 12,600 instances are due, in no small part, to every post by players who were banned (and who consequently have "Banned" under their forum names) being indexed by Google. Some of those players had hundreds, perhaps even thousands of posts to their names.
In truth, we have less than 30 banned accounts configured into our game servers, and at least 3-4 of those are different accounts held by the same person. For as long as this world has been in operation, that's not a lot of people.
Everyone that I've seen so far has been banned for repeated and/or flagrant offenses, not simply being contrary, or for trying to survive with their character...or, perhaps the biggest misconception, for irritating a GM.
But anyway, we're hijacking the thread. :)
-
But anyway, we're hijacking the thread.
I think we crossed that rubicon long long ago.
Poor Kajun! He was just writing a "where is everybody" thread, and this happened! :D
Anyway, I'll start up a new thread with the changes you and others have suggested. Probably in the General area, since of necessity, this involves so much meta-discussion it really doesn't belong in Rumors.
Though I do take back one thing - I think I have a way of putting the rules back into a fun in-character format. (Though with my luck, that will just end up putting work onto Ed.)
-
Just a note. While luring seems cheap, the monsters really should worry about their own area of effect spells which they cast on their own party. AOEs are the reason for 75% or so of luring. People just simply dont want to be hit with supernatural fireballs which only affect their party and not the other. You can explain luring... you tricked a scout, one of their pack wandered off to investigate, etc. What you cannot explain is why monsters will hellball or fireball or evards black tentacles or even entangle themselves 6 times in a row and remain unscathed. Having just died within seconds after entering a room of hellballing, dark elf casters which should have by all rights immolated themselves, I would have to say that the monsters in many places MANDATE luring and using line-of-sight game mechanics as a necessity.
Now if there weren't so many chokepoints with mages who acted as immortal suicide bombers, then players might be more willing to "fight fair". But until the enemies start adhering to the basics of physics (ie: casting a fireball on myself and my friends will set them on fire, just as well as my targets), then the whole realism in their AI argument is somewhat moot. The monster mages are already abusing their own AI and the game mechanics to a rather unbalancing degree.
-
It's pretty hard to rewrite an Ai i think, would it even be possible for NWN?. in anycase I do agree to a certain degree of what Loranin is saying. I have always find it a bit frustrating that the npc casters would not hurt their own side, on a spell that -is- all creatures within the area, damaging.
I think it was wierd that I saw used in the firestep once, by the enemy caster. While we had protected ourselves from it, the other npc foe had not. and yet they still lived through it, while would we have not protected our selves from it, we would have died and they would have feasted on our chubby hero carcasses.
But at the same time the solo luring (luring one foe at a time) I am not particularly a fan myself.
-
It's pretty hard to rewrite an Ai i think, would it even be possible for NWN?. in anycase I do agree to a certain degree of what Loranin is saying. I have always find it a bit frustrating that the npc casters would not hurt their own side, on a spell that -is- all creatures within the area, damaging.
I think it was wierd that I saw used in the firestep once, by the enemy caster. While we had protected ourselves from it, the other npc foe had not. and yet they still lived through it, while would we have not protected our selves from it, we would have died and they would have feasted on our chubby hero carcasses.
But at the same time the solo luring (luring one foe at a time) I am not particularly a fan myself.
Indeed, much of the gameplay and AI limitations that we experience in NWN will hopefully be fixed when we carry over into the MMORPG version. I'm crossing my fingers for monsters which give up pursuit of a player after he runs hasted off into the distance, and transitionless areas, and smart-luring AI like in Gothic 3, where enemies grouped together lure together.