Unholy Champion of Pyrtechon PrC

[jadewillow]

Mechanically, what class does the Unholy Champions pick when leveling?

[thekevmon]

What still seems to be separated in your mind is that being a Pyrtechonite trumps being a Champion.  It does not. This is an inclusive situation.  There are requirements for being a Pyrtechonite, and there are requirements for being a Champion.

I agree, this is an inclusive situation. The Champions are the cream of the crop, the very best Pyrtechonites out there; they take the dogma more seriously than anyone else. Surely the requirements for being a Champion can only be taken into consideration when one has met the requirements for following Pyrtechon. I am simply saying that a Champion embodies the dogma of a religion, and if there is no favored weapon there, then it should not be a requirement.

Take two characters with identical builds except one has Weapon Focus in some weapon and the other does not.  Which is going to be more effective? with that weapon? The answer is simple.  I'm conceding here that the choice of weapon for an Unholy Champion of Pyrtechon is probably irrelevant. However, if such an individual is going to be a Champion of Pyrtechon, it behooves them to be as destructive as possible. Again, this can be expressed by choosing the weapon with the highest average damage per strike, but setting that aside and keeping the idea that Pyrtechonites have no specific favored weapon, the most effective Champion is going to be one that focuses on the nuances and particulars of one specific weapon rather than splattering his training over many.

If the character without weapon focus has a different feat, for example knockdown, I wouldn't be so quick to favor the one with weapon focus. I think at this point we can both agree that the choice of weapon doesn't matter. While I agree that it would make sense to take weapon focus at some time during the career of the champion (in all honesty who in their right mind wouldn't?), I don't feel it should be required.

For a Chaotic Pyrtechonite it's not about "focusing" so much as favoring and becoming very effective with a particular weapon.

Again, I understand the appeal of weapon focus, but still feel it should not be required.

A Jack-of-all-Trades is a master of none.

Something a Bard understands all too well, I'm afraid. O.o

This idea is not in conflict with the lore surrounding Pyrtechon, nor is it in conflict with the lore surrounding champions. Pyrtechon would want his Champions to be the best destroyers possible, and a mechanical manifestation of that would be requiring a Weapon Focus feat.

Or really any combat feat. Cleave is already required, why not throw in whirlwind attack as well? Epic prowess? I'm just trying to say that in the context, weapon focus makes at most as much sense as any other combat-based feat, and in most cases not as much.

Point Blank Shot is not a valid comparison here, because it does not apply to melee weapons. Champions are primarily a melee-focused class.

The only melee-only feat they get is smite, which is useful, but not the sole reason to take the class. Sneak attacks from range are still useful, especially when you have a nice meaty fiend to absorb the blows while you take pot shots from just under 15 feet away. Seeing as they are based on the Champion of Torm, which requires weapon focus in a melee weapon, I can understand where you're coming from, but if the greatsword focus is to be opened to any weapon (or dropped altogether), a ranged Champion does not seem that unreasonable to me.

I really do understand your arguments, and I find value in them. I also suspect this one little feat may be upsetting a planned progression for a character of yours toward UCoP.  If this is true, that's fine.  I get it.  But I also have to wonder why not also debate the merits of 5 ranks in Hide. Why would the Destroyer's Champion need or want to hide? Is he only to destroy in stealth? I doubt it. Lore-wise, that makes less sense than the original complaint, don't you think?

Good point. Why not debate the five ranks in hide? I'd assumed it was because any Unholy Champion worth his salt would know better than to practice their religion out in the open for all to see. Surely a Champion without some measure of stealth would be a short lived Champion indeed. Not to mention, the 5 ranks in hide are mechanically relevant (as even though the class is based conceptually on CoT, its pretty obvious that it is mechanically based on the Blackguard), where the weapon focus is not. Neither the hide nor the weapon focus seems relevant to me, but only one of those two is easily changeable and that's the one I'm after. But hey, why not re-work the entire class if none of it seems to make sense?

Sure! And in doing so, you would also want to figure out how to make the biggest mess possible with that weapon, so Weapon Focus fits well.

Or you would want to figure out how to kill the most things with it, where again, almost any combat feat applies. Pyrtechon is the God of Fury and Destruction, not the bane of janitors all across Layonara.

So again, keeping a Weapon Focus requirement for all Champions (regardless of deity) seems to make a lot of sense, because it's consistent for Champions. If we're going to take that away, we shouldn't call them Champions, but that seems kind of a big and unnecessary shift for such a minor matter, when most or all of the lore matters related to UCoP can be solved simply by opening up the requirement to any Weapon Focus, not a specific one.

All other Champions have a favored weapon, so yes, weapon focus should be kept consistent for them. Pyrtechon does not; he is decidedly inconsistent in that regard, and his Champion requirements should reflect that.

Though I would say...I would laugh a lot if someone tried to make an UCoP with Weapon Focus: Dagger...unless that someone was an over-caffeinated dual-wielding jackrabbit with a meth habit.

Disciples of Pyrtechon are to be feared, not made sport of. But yeah, that would be kinda funny.

[Ne'er]

What still seems to be separated in your mind is that being a Pyrtechonite trumps being a Champion.  It does not. This is an inclusive situation.  There are requirements for being a Pyrtechonite, and there are requirements for being a Champion.

Umm... what does that actually mean? Is there a universal idea of a champion that is somehow equally applicable to Toran, Corath, and Pyrtechon, three incredibly different gods? Sure, if there was an order of "Champions" that took certain vows and somehow viewed equally across the board as filling the same function, but just serving different gods, that would make sense. But that really doesn't seem to be how the flavor of the classes are written (or maybe it is and I've just really missed the mark on understanding that one). If that's the case, then why not just have "Divine Champion" as a class, make the requirements static, and let people who follow any god become one? That would be actually be sort of nifty. I know back in my heyday Jet would have loved to become a Champion of Ilsare. But again, unless I've really missed the mark on understanding this, being a Pyrtechonite should trump being this ambiguous "champion." That's what the flavor of the class is, its what makes it different, and I have a very hard time believing that someone would be selected as a champion of any faith that didn't at the very least strive to be the very embodiment of that faith.

For a Chaotic Pyrtechonite it's not about "focusing" so much as favoring and becoming very effective with a particular weapon.

But why become focused on a particular weapon when that leaves you at risk of being a one-trick pony? Maybe tomorrow his free-spirited whims would lead him to want to set someone on fire and pound them into submission with his bare hands? Which brings me to the next point...

A Jack-of-all-Trades is a master of none.

Very true, but the mistake here is thinking that weapon skill is the only skill. Pyrtechon doesn't deal in mastery in swordsmanship or stealth; Pyrtechon is the master of unbridled fury and destruction. When I think of the man (or woman) who will carry that flag holding a burning home (likely tattered and burned from some horrible campaign) so I imagine the man who meticulously honed his swordsmanship, or axesmanship, or maulsmanship to best his opponents? No! I imagine a terrifying berserker who may have some tried and tested skill at arms, but more likely than not draws his strength from two sources: his own hate and anger and the divine wrath of a god who is basically just wrath and no cunning. The Champion I imagine is specialized, but its in destruction and fury, not honed skill at arms.

This idea is not in conflict with the lore surrounding Pyrtechon, nor is it in conflict with the lore surrounding champions. Pyrtechon would want his Champions to be the best destroyers possible, and a mechanical manifestation of that would be requiring a Weapon Focus feat.

This seems like an arguable point at best. The other best way to mechanical be as destructive as possible is to take Weapon Specialization. Or Improved Critical. But that's enough about mechanics... I thought Layonara was about roleplay first, and game mechanics third or fourth? And the fact is that Weapon Focus may be the defacto feat for most fighters because, yes it is a good feat for someone who wants to lock themselves into a weapon, and it frankly fits the backstory of most characters who are usually trained with one weapon. But roleplay wise, what is it? It is long-term training and experience with one weapon, focus on it over all others. There's really no escaping that unless we really want to downplay the roleplaying value of feat selection. I honestly don't think it makes sense as a necessity. Yes it makes sense for Champions of other gods, I grant you that, but I again ask: what does that actually mean in regards to being a champion of this god?

Point Blank Shot is not a valid comparison here, because it does not apply to melee weapons. Champions are primarily a melee-focused class.

Once again, what is this based on thematically? The Champions of Corath, Toran, and the default NWN Torm? As far as I see it, this comparison is perfectly valid - a theoretical champion of Folian S'pae would probably largely disagree that Champions must be melee based. Of course, he could always just take Weapon Focus (longbow), but he'd be a fool to pass up Point Blank Shot because mechanically, that's the one that makes sense.

Now its heart of the matter time, and the real reason I was interested in this debate:

But I also have to wonder why not also debate the merits of 5 ranks in Hide. Why would the Destroyer's Champion need or want to hide? Is he only to destroy in stealth? I doubt it. Lore-wise, that makes less sense than the original complaint, don't you think?

You are 100% correct on this, and the Hide skill makes no sense whatsoever, for a Pyrtechonite or this theoretical "Champion" that you've alluded to and sort of describe in the next paragraph:

So again, keeping a Weapon Focus requirement for all Champions (regardless of deity) seems to make a lot of sense, because it's consistent for Champions. If we're going to take that away, we shouldn't call them Champions, but that seems kind of a big and unnecessary shift for such a minor matter, when most or all of the lore matters related to UCoP can be solved simply by opening up the requirement to any Weapon Focus, not a specific one.

The Champion of Toran doesn't have that Hide requirement, am I wrong? Neither does the Champion of Vorax. Why not? Are they not all Champions first, and followers of their gods second? Yes, there is an alignment difference - Toran and Vorax are good, Corath and Pyrtechon are evil. This much is clear as day. But this is at its heart a mechanical difference. Evil is not the same as evil, and good is not the same as good. Honestly, the differences between Pyrtechon and Corath are arguable as different as the differences between Toran and Pyrtechon. Sure, in one case the two gods share alignments, but they otherwise have hugely different tenets and hugely different beliefs. To Pyrtechon, the Corathite is more fuel for the fire, but to the Corathite, the Pyrtechonite is a tool to be aimed and unleashed, but always kept on one of the things a Pyrtechonite hates most: a leash. Obviously these gods are different in many, many ways, other than alignment. But mechanical, the champion classes are divided in this way. That honestly seems highly contradictory: if they are all Champions in some universal sense, then how come they are still treated differently?

Which to me means there are really two options here: either champions are tailored to their god, or they are some other more universal concept. Restricting it based solely on alignment is honestly just bad roleplaying.

So here are my two propositions: accept that champions are unique to specific gods and tailor the PrCs to reflect that. That likely means whole new abilities, whole new requirements, although I think the write-ups wouldn't need to be redone. Sadly, this means that other gods will be left championless unless someone really wants to take the time to construct new classes for all of them, but maybe that's ok. Maybe the only gods who have need of specific champions are the ones that already have the classes.

The other option is to toss out specific champions of Toran, Corath, etc. and house them all under the "Divine Champion" PrC. This seems to me what you've been alluding to the desired case. If this singular class existed, the restriction could just be Weapon Focus, BAB +7, and no alignment restriction. Sure, people would need to be the same alignment as the god they wanted to champion, but that's what character approvals are for. This is the less sticky option that, in a weird way, gives characters of other gods something fun to work towards if they so desire. It also I think reconciles some of the inconsistencies that exist in the current understandings of "Champions" in Layonara.

Truth be told I don't think either solution will actually happen, but it is fun to think about.

TL;DR - Champions should either be specific to gods or wholly generic; the current system is strikingly inconsistent.

[Dorganath]

Some good and thoughtful responses, and far too much to respond to all of them, so I'm going to cherry-pick them and potentially take things out of context. *winks* Kidding about that last part....maybe...

I agree, this is an inclusive situation. The Champions are the cream of the crop, the very best Pyrtechonites out there; they take the dogma more seriously than anyone else. Surely the requirements for being a Champion can only be taken into consideration when one has met the requirements for following Pyrtechon. I am simply saying that a Champion embodies the dogma of a religion, and if there is no favored weapon there, then it should not be a requirement.

I have already, several times, put forth the idea that having a specific Weapon Focus requirement for UCoP is no longer consistent with lore given the lack of a preferred weapon. I think we can agree on this point at least fully.  At the same time, I see no disparity or inconsistency with continuing to require some melee Weapon Focus feat. Champion is a melee-oriented class, afterall.

Answer me this: Why is this not a reasonable compromise?

Seeing as they are based on the Champion of Torm, which requires weapon focus in a melee weapon, I can understand where you're coming from, but if the greatsword focus is to be opened to any weapon (or dropped altogether), a ranged Champion does not seem that unreasonable to me.

I should have been more specific. I said "any" Weapon Focus feat when I meant "any melee" Weapon Focus feat. I did not mean for such an oversight to suggest the possibility of ranged-weapon Champions.

(as even though the class is based conceptually on CoT, its pretty obvious that it is mechanically based on the Blackguard)

As I have said in a previous post, it's possible (even likely) that UCoP, UCoBC and UCoC are a mixture of Champion of Torm and Blackguard. If one remains focused on the Blackguard similarities then it will seem that way, but if one considers them as a blend, then the presence of Weapon Focus makes more sense.

All other Champions have a favored, weapon, so yes, weapon focus should be kept consistent for them. Pyrtechon does not; he is decidedly inconsistent in that regard, and it is my belief that his Champion requirements should reflect that.

So why not have his Champions with an inconsistent smattering of preferred melee weaponry?  

Umm... what does that actually mean? Is there a universal idea of a champion that is somehow equally applicable to Toran, Corath, and Pyrtechon, three incredibly different gods? Sure, if there was an order of "Champions" that took certain vows and somehow viewed equally across the board as filling the same function, but just serving different gods, that would make sense. But that really doesn't seem to be how the flavor of the classes are written (or maybe it is and I've just really missed the mark on understanding that one). If that's the case, then why not just have "Divine Champion" as a class, make the requirements static, and let people who follow any god become one? That would be actually be sort of nifty. I know back in my heyday Jet would have loved to become a Champion of Ilsare. But again, unless I've really missed the mark on understanding this, being a Pyrtechonite should trump being this ambiguous "champion." That's what the flavor of the class is, its what makes it different, and I have a very hard time believing that someone would be selected as a champion of any faith that didn't at the very least strive to be the very embodiment of that faith.

Good questions.

First, there is an overall concept of Champions.  Taking the specific deities out of it for a moment, there is a common thread running through them all, and that is...well, they're the Champion of their deities. At their core, they're a physical embodiment of their deities, if not in form then in execution of...not dogma so much as being the arm of the deity itself.  I know this concept was covered at great length with respect to Toran a while ago, and while it would be interesting to flip the coin around, I'm not going to start down that path here tonight.  That's not to say it couldn't be discussed...just that I'm not going to start it.

On the question of making it just a general "Divine Champion" class...the answer is it's simply not appropriate for all deities to have Champions. For most, in fact, it makes no sense whatsoever.  I could make a list and make some cheeky comments about the absurdity of some combinations (i.e. Champion of Az'atta -> Weapon Focus: Hugs), but that would be a big waste of time.

So...and again, this is speculative on my part, since the classes existed before I had anything to do with development, but I have a fair good idea how the minds of the people who did design them work...the Champion classes were picked by some criteria, and I would guess that criteria to have something to do with the aggressiveness of the dogma and deity alike. Toran is aggressive in protecting the weak and so on. Vorax is aggressive in battle and in strength of arms. Pyrtechon is just plain aggressive.  Ca'Duz and Corath are also aggressive in their own particular ways.  These all, as a collection, make sense to have Champions. That is not to say that there is any great similarity, in terms of RP, between Champions except in the very highest level of comparison.

And yes, there are marked differences between the Good-aligned Champions and the Evil-aligned ones. And yes, there are similarities to both Blackguard and Champion of Torm for both.  As stated above, they are a blend of concepts, but please do not confuse the Unholy Champions with Blackguards in an RP sense, because that is definitely not universally accurate.

But why become focused on a particular weapon when that leaves you at risk of being a one-trick pony? Maybe tomorrow his free-spirited whims would lead him to want to set someone on fire and pound them into submission with his bare hands?

Weapon Focus can be taken multiple times for multiple weapons.  This PrC is just asking for one at a minimum.  This in itself does not enforce any sort of "one-trick pony" development.

But that's enough about mechanics... I thought Layonara was about roleplay first, and game mechanics third or fourth? And the fact is that Weapon Focus may be the defacto feat for most fighters because, yes it is a good feat for someone who wants to lock themselves into a weapon, and it frankly fits the backstory of most characters who are usually trained with one weapon. But roleplay wise, what is it? It is long-term training and experience with one weapon, focus on it over all others. There's really no escaping that unless we really want to downplay the roleplaying value of feat selection. I honestly don't think it makes sense as a necessity. Yes it makes sense for Champions of other gods, I grant you that, but I again ask: what does that actually mean in regards to being a champion of this god?

Yes, it is about RP first, and the NWN system is a lacking framework for the diversity of our lore. The mechanics we have are simply an approximation to reflect the RP and development of a character...or conversely they can be a framework for the RP and development of a character.  But they're kind of clunky, tied to discreet concepts of class and on/off abilities with little to no spectrum.

Your questions here and arguments are good, but the real fact is that whether it's Weapon Focus (any melee) or some other combat-oriented feat, there'd still be a forced "backstory" for the character imposed by the feat requirement.  That's pretty much true for any class, so the idea of eliminating it for this one makes no sense to me given the system we have. Maybe he's not focusing on a weapon...instead he focuses on knocking people down (assuming Knockdown would become a requirement for UCoP), for example.  But why should he have to do that just to be Pyrtechon's Champion? It's just as restrictive, but it may only have the advantage of better aligning with someone's own personal build preferences while others won't agree with that and wish it to be something else.

So why not take it out all together? Well, then it becomes unbalanced in comparison to the other Unholy Champion classes. In particular, the bar is lowered for entry, so where's the trade-off?  Should we take something away from the UCoP to balance it out and effectively make that PrC weaker than the others? Or should we take it away from all of them and kind of have to rebalance the whole mess?

Personally, it think that's far too much effort for this one little issue.  

The Champion of Toran doesn't have that Hide requirement, am I wrong? Neither does the Champion of Vorax. Why not? Are they not all Champions first, and followers of their gods second? Yes, there is an alignment difference - Toran and Vorax are good, Corath and Pyrtechon are evil. This much is clear as day. But this is at its heart a mechanical difference.

There is a difference between Toran/Vorax Champions and Ca'Duz/Corath/Pyrtechon Champions.  The latter set has Hide requirements, which makes sense since they're technically illegal in most places...arguably anyway. They also have a lower BAB requirement, so the difference in requirements between the Good set and the Evil set finds some kind of balance in the give-and-take.

Which to me means there are really two options here: either champions are tailored to their god, or they are some other more universal concept. Restricting it based solely on alignment is honestly just bad roleplaying.

So here are my two propositions: accept that champions are unique to specific gods and tailor the PrCs to reflect that. That likely means whole new abilities, whole new requirements, although I think the write-ups wouldn't need to be redone. Sadly, this means that other gods will be left championless unless someone really wants to take the time to construct new classes for all of them, but maybe that's ok. Maybe the only gods who have need of specific champions are the ones that already have the classes.

The other option is to toss out specific champions of Toran, Corath, etc. and house them all under the "Divine Champion" PrC. This seems to me what you've been alluding to the desired case. If this singular class existed, the restriction could just be Weapon Focus, BAB +7, and no alignment restriction. Sure, people would need to be the same alignment as the god they wanted to champion, but that's what character approvals are for. This is the less sticky option that, in a weird way, gives characters of other gods something fun to work towards if they so desire. It also I think reconciles some of the inconsistencies that exist in the current understandings of "Champions" in Layonara.

The second won't work for reasons I've stated already. It makes no sense for some deities to have Champions.  Beyond that, custom crafting 28 Champion classes is no small feat...no pun intended. *grins*

There's a third option, because really, most of the Champions we have are already  tailored to each deity by virtue of the preferred weapon and the  corresponding Weapon Focus feat. That third option? Keep Weapon Focus as  a requirement for UCoP but make it a non-specific melee Weapon Focus.  This is the best of both worlds, and it gives freedom and keeps  consistency across the line. It's also the easiest and quickest to do.

Really,  and I don't mean any offense to anyone when I say this...but this whole  discussion and the passion of the responses is kind of disproportionate  to the root of things...and that root is this:

Pyrtechon's lore  evolved. The class did not. It was a pure and simple oversight and it  can be pretty easily remedied if people are willing to meet in the  middle and understand the intent and limitations we have here.

[thekevmon]

All right, we have established that the requirement should at least be expanded to Weapon Focus (any melee weapon).

Before I make my next point, some facts:

[INDENT]In Layonara, all Champion classes, Holy or Unholy, regardless of Deity, are to be viewed through the lens of the Champion of Torm when considered from a conceptual and roleplay standpoint.[/INDENT]

[INDENT]In Layonara, both the Holy Champion of Toran and the Holy Champion of Vorax are mechanically identical to the Champion of Torm PrC from the original Neverwinter Nights, benefits and requirements all, with the exception that their weapon focuses have been specified for them.[/INDENT]

[INDENT]In Layonara, the Unholy Champion classes are mechanically identical to the Blackguard PrC from the original Neverwinter Nights, benefits and requirements all, with the exception that they must also take weapon focus in a melee weapon (specifically shortsword for Corath).[/INDENT]

The issue of balance was mentioned in the last post. Dungeons and Dragons has been around for decades. From these decades of play and experimentation spawned two prestige classes, the Champion of Torm and the Blackguard. These classes have no doubt been modified countless times over the years to bring them into balance with each other. There should be no clear favorite as to which is the superior class.

To remove the weapon focus requirement from unholy champions would not throw the Champion classes out of balance, it would throw them into balance. Think about it. The only additional requirement of a good Champion (as mechanically compared to the Champion of Torm) is that they have their weapon chosen for them from the start. The Unholy Champions (as compared to the Blackguard) are now required to take a whole new feat. Assuming the classes started in balance, as I have and I think many others would too, this throws them mechanically out of balance.

I don't think I'm being too bold in stating that there is more justification for a Champion of Corath having weapon focus than a champion of Pyrtechon, as Corath has a favored weapon and Pyrtechon does not. However, I fail to see the problem in removing the requirement altogether from both classes, since it is not mechanically enforced and it only serves to unbalance the classes.

As for the responses being disproportionate, I know I don't have to explain to anyone here how seriously Layonara takes its lore. The character submission process is proof enough of that. We are simply making this an issue because we feel something is wrong and that it would better the world for it to be fixed.

On a side note, and just out of curiosity, why is there no Blackguard class on Layonara? We have paladins, it seems perfectly reasonable that we would have anti-paladins.

[Polak76]

Well I've certainly done my quota of reading for the week.

[Rowana]

Answer me this: Why is this not a reasonable compromise?  

@thekevmon

I'm totally following that you feel that there's something wrong with requiring any kind of weapon focus, and I think you were sort of getting to the why of it with the balance/unbalance segment there. I'm not seeing the answer to this pretty important question which I think will better explain why you feel the presence of the required weapon focus is so horribly offensive. Really, it's not about being stuck in the mud about it or unmovable, it's about really not understanding what it is you are trying to say with "this is completely wrong," because when we ask why we're getting "why don't you see this is wrong!" in reply rather than an enumerated example.  

It's pretty obvious to me that the fixation is completely about the mechanics here, but I don't see how the mechanics isn't pretty ideally matched to the lore, with the exception of Dorganath's conceded point on weapon type. Is it too difficult somehow? Is it too limiting some how? Is it strictly a numbers thing ("We only have this number of things for the good guys, why do the bad guys have this extra junk??")? Is coming off contrary to lore in some way to you? What's going on here that makes you feel like the requirement of Weapon Focus feat (any) is so problematic that it feels unbalanced (and unfair) to you? Is Weapon Focus feat somehow barring someone out there from making the WLDQ application for Champion of P-tech (or massive CDQ series)?

As to why we don't have the Blackguard PrC, I don't know if there's been actual discussion about this or not but I would guess that the implementation and lore of the class hasn't been worked on due to a lack of interest by either Team members or community. We recently revamped an old PrC (scout) and added one of the 'newer' PrCs (knight), fitted to our lore etc. It's not that we don't add them, there ... just really hasn't been an interest expressed by anyone by my perception. I think this is the first time I've seen much said about Blackguard at all here. We don't really have all that many paladins, usually don't have that many active at any point in time that I can remember. It may just not be poplar enough to bother with (given the limited man hours available).

I could be totally wrong on this, and I'm sure someone will come around and brutally smack me down for the audacity of being wrong but, that's my current best educated guess.

~row

[Dorganath]

I'm going to *gasp* try to be succinct...

The issue of balance was mentioned in the last post. Dungeons and Dragons has been around for decades. From these decades of play and experimentation spawned two prestige classes, the Champion of Torm and the Blackguard. These classes have no doubt been modified countless times over the years to bring them into balance with each other. There should be no clear favorite as to which is the superior class.

D&D is not without its imbalances, and such a thing could be its own separate topic all together.  NWN, while based on D&D, is not D&D. It's a computer-based approximation with its own sets of compromises necessary for an electronic, programmed format.  Layonara is not D&D or NWN, though presently NWN it is the platform upon which Layonara is implemented, imperfect as it may be.

So ultimately, this isn't about what is preferred or favorite in terms of This Class or That.  Also, it is quite pointless to continue to debate the basis of our Champion classes. Mechanical similarities are just that.  The intent, design and lore of the classes trumps whatever arguments one may want to make about the stock NWN classes from which they are derived.

To remove the weapon focus requirement from unholy champions would not throw the Champion classes out of balance, it would throw them into balance. Think about it. The only additional requirement of a good Champion (as mechanically compared to the Champion of Torm) is that they have their weapon chosen for them from the start. The Unholy Champions (as compared to the Blackguard) are now required to take a whole new feat. Assuming the classes started in balance, as I have and I think many others would too, this throws them mechanically out of balance.

Only if one continues to treat them as Champion of Torm and Blackguard. If one narrows the focus to those examples, which do not fit Layonara's lore in one way or the other, then yes....the addition of additional requirements could be considered as unbalancing.  However, if one considers the entire Champion line in Layonara, then one would see the consistency of the way they're designed.  Even if one only limits oneself to the Evil-aligned Champion PrCs, there is presently a consistency among them, and as such it was my comment that removing a requirement from one of them skews things and removes that consistency.

I don't think I'm being too bold in stating that there is more justification for a Champion of Corath having weapon focus than a champion of Pyrtechon, as Corath has a favored weapon and Pyrtechon does not. However, I fail to see the problem in removing the requirement altogether from both classes, since it is not mechanically enforced and it only serves to unbalance the classes.

I think we can agree that Weapon Focus or not, the mechanical balance at play-time is negligible. The +1 AB isn't really going to amount to a heck of a lot. It's presence is, and always has been, symbolic for these PrCs.  Removing a requirement, and a minor one at that, does effectively lower the bar for entry to the UCoP in comparison to the other Unholy Champion classes. That is the balance I spoke of before.

As for the responses being disproportionate, I know I don't have to explain to anyone here how seriously Layonara takes its lore. The character submission process is proof enough of that. We are simply making this an issue because we feel something is wrong and that it would better the world for it to be fixed.

No need to explain. I completely understand your intent and your opinions on this matter. I say this because I get the impression you're still trying to explain them to me.  It's really not necessary. I simply have a different opinion and perspective.

However, whether or not something is "fixed", and how it is "fixed", will depend on how "wrong" it really is, and it is in this measure of "wrongness" where we seem to disagree.  That's fine, and historically we have addressed matters like this where lore moves on but mechanics (or in some cases administration) do not.  My opinion of what would best address the issue differs from yours.  There's nothing wrong with that, but obviously we may not both get what we want out of it ultimately.

Understand that I completely understand and respect the opinions and analysis offered here. My disagreement with the offered conclusions should not be mistaken for a lack of understanding as to what is being conveyed here.  Truly...I get it.

On a side note, and just out of curiosity, why is there no Blackguard class on Layonara? We have paladins, it seems perfectly reasonable that we would have anti-paladins.

In fact, the Unholy Champion of Corath re-uses the Blackguard class ID, thus replacing it in the list, mechanically speaking, and thereby excluding someone from taking Blackguard as a class.  Once more, the "why" on this is going to be speculative, since I was not involved in things when these classes were created, but I would conclude that since we re-used the Blackguard class ID for Unholy Champion of Corath, we simply did not want the Blackguard class at all, or at least not by name.  The reason for this is most likely that the lore of the standard Blackguard class is not compatible with the lore of Layonara.  As has been observed now many times in this thread alone, there are strong mechanical similarities between Unholy Champions and Blackguards, but in terms of lore and RP, we want them to be different.  Again, this is just a guess, albeit an educated one.

The last thing I want to say here is this:

I originally posted in this thread to convey information and background, because the question was asked as to why things are as they are.  Isn't that the purpose of "Ask a Gamemaster"? However, it seems the information I offered, as background only, somehow became fodder for a debate. This happens a lot, actually, and it's tiring. It takes up a lot more time than I want to spend on it and in this case, I got called "ignorant" in the process. Always a good time.

I'm kind of thinking this thread has run its course, but I don't like shutting down a conversation that can be and has been productive on some level, so please continue if you want.  That said, I think I will no longer contribute to this one. I have answered the questions asked and even agreed with the core assertion that lore and class design have a mismatch in this case and offered a reasonable compromise that seems to satisfy the core issue.  However, I do not believe that hammering on this topic any further from either side is going to be productive in any way, at least not on my part. I understand what is being said, and hopefully I have made myself understood as well.

If you want to ensure proper visibility for some potential change in this matter, I strongly suggest posting there.  This particular forum is not usually scanned for material when preparing updates.

Thank you all for offering your opinions and analysis, and thanks to thekevmon for bringing this up in the first place. It is indeed inconsistent, and probably should be addressed in some way.

*waves*

[LordCove]

As suggested:  http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/286522-unholy-champion-pyrtechon.html#post1748886