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Author Topic: Vile racist dwarfs  (Read 3416 times)

Gunther

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2007, 11:27:13 pm »
It makes sense to me.  Your typical halfgiant is probably not the result of an amorous meeting between a human male and a lusty giant female.  Your typical halfgiant is probably therefore raised by his female human parent.  In a human community.  Amongst humans.  Maybe not a common sight, but one that is seen.

As the halfgiant is raised amongst humans (usually), it would be more accepted.  Even seen as human.  As the description reads above, the only  noticeable difference is 'hairlessness and a big forehead'.  Look at Andre the Giant.  Seven foot tall.  Definitely an odd appearance.  Human?  Yeah, I'm guessing so.  I think any regular human that grows to that size (not just height), would bear a rather remarkable appearance.

As for Darkstorme's argument that you havent met a 'gentle giant', therefore they should be ostracized, I think it might be somewhat fallacious.  What you may mean, is that you havent seen a 'gentle adventurer giant'.  I'm guessing that (just as with humans, elves, dwarves, etc) that there are halfgiant NPCs out there farming, mining, etc.  I also think the majority of societies in Layo would be more barbaric societies.  Amongst the largely peasant population, there probably wouldnt be many tea parties at all.  Someone with the size and strength of a halfgiant would be greatly appreciated in an society that isnt industrialized.

I'm not really sure what Stephen is alluding to.  I think any critter, whether it be dwarf, elf, etc that hangs out with dragons, would be somewhat questionable.
 

Gunther

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2007, 11:40:16 pm »
I'll be darned.  I just read the new alignments section and halfgiant PCs must be TN,CN,LE, or NE.

Guess they are evil.  Or close to it.  If Leanthar says so, I guess that has to be good enough for me.

Alright, I guess they are ostracized.  I guess Gunther better change his alignment.  Unless theres a 'grandfather' clause
 

hawklen

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2007, 11:48:34 pm »
Quote from: Gunther
Not to kick this dead horse any further......but please, please, please actually read the PH bit on halfgiants before lumping them in with monstrous races.  Thats all I ask (and its going further off topic).

According to the PH...."Halfgiants as a general rule tend to get along well with both their parent races, and have better relations with both than say, half-elves."

Why this assumption that halfgiants are monsters when the above clearly states otherwise?  My understanding of the above is that halfgiants are more readily accepted than halfelves.  Are halfelves being booted out of Hempstead and other communities?

From what I gather from that, it means half giants get along with their parents better than half elves, as with half elves, their elven parent is always saddened, because he/she knows he/she will out live their child. *shrugs* Always what I have gotten out of it.

As for the dwarf thing. They I think, not so much smell, but a feeling, a vibe the halfgiant gives off. They have been fighting for centuries so some sort of empathy would develop between the two races.

Thats my three cents.
 

darkstorme

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2007, 01:17:50 am »
Quote from: Gunther
I'll be darned.  I just read the new alignments section and halfgiant PCs must be TN,CN,LE, or NE.

Guess they are evil.  Or close to it.  If Leanthar says so, I guess that has to be good enough for me.

Alright, I guess they are ostracized.  I guess Gunther better change his alignment.  Unless theres a 'grandfather' clause


The usual premise on any major rule change is that anything that existed before the rule change (barring some major game-breaking issues) is grandfathered in.  Gunther gets to stay as good as he likes to be.  (And Half-Giant PCs only need to start TN, etc.)

As for my argument - if you're a Half-Giant born of an encounter betwixt a human woman and a roving giant, I don't think you'd be likely to have too nice a childhood - and thus I would suspect that more half-giants are prone to adventuring than their human brethren.
 

s0ulz

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2007, 03:11:42 am »
I play a dwarf and when a Half-giant comes to the same area, my dwarf makes the first and for him the safest assumtion there is: it's big, bigger than average humans;

Having dealt a lot with giants, he doesn't smell or "detect" that the incoming persona is a half-giant, he simply has dealt with far too many giants and has met too many half-giants to let his guard down and makes the safest assumption.

He doesn't go for his axe and charge at the suspicious character, yet is vary and ready if need arises.

Most half-giants do carry some characteristics from their giant-kin, so they'll look awkward in a crowd of human folk.

Anyway, that's how I play it...
 

Weeblie

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2007, 05:15:52 am »
Q: How does one distinguish half-giants/half-ogres/half-orcs from humans?
A: They are bigger. There are of course smaller details but those might not be what "commoners" would be aware of.

Q: How can one be sure that it's not a human with big bones and an ugly face?
A: One can't so very easily, unless one is specialized in half-"monster" hunting.

Q: What does this mean?
A: Very big "pure" humans would most probably also get a half-"monster" stamp on him/her.

This is my own view on this topic... At least to detect half-"monster" races. :)

But how to react...? Hmm... Dunno...
 

aragwen

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2007, 06:31:47 am »
Here is my view on it.
 
 Just because you were raised by humans or non-monstrous race would not make you accepted. People usually judge on race and not on an individual. So if you drow, no matter who raised you, you will be hated on sight most likely. I agree half-giants/half-orcs would be less easily spotted, but there mere size would be a give-away. The way I see it the chances are better it is a half-giant than just being a huge human.
 
 As for half-elf, I think the passage you quoted stated that that half-giants are accepted by both their parent races. Which also means a half-giant could easily be working with or for giants. Humans and especially dwarves dont really accept giants, so why woudl the accept the half-giant that might be aligned with the giants.
 
 Half-elfs are on the other not generally accepted by both their parent's races, as elf kind of look down on the "bastard elf" not being pure. So that means half-elfs are less common amongst elves than what they would be under humans. But seeing as humans generally accept elfs I dont see that they would not accept half-elfs.
 

Faldred

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2007, 09:32:58 am »
Quote from: Honora
At least some of this is a result of the alignments being changed.  The LORE entry is pre-"monsterous" and at that time of course you could be a LG half-giant if you wished, where as now even LN is forbidden as a starting alignment.  So the "new" racial ability would seem to be an out of game reaction carried in game regarding the change in base attitude.
 
 My 2 True.

Actually, as long as I've been here, half-giants could not start the game with a Lawful alignment of any type.  In V2, the only valid starting HG alignments were NG, CG, TN, and, for those who qualified, CN.  In V3, NG and CG are taken away, NE is added, and there's ongoing debate about whether LE is allowed.  ;)
 

Interia_Discordius

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2007, 11:15:20 am »
Well, one of the things I want to point out...
We're all different heights, so although in-game Gunther appears to tower over us, I know a lot of human males choose their height around six feet also, so it shouldn't be such a huge difference roleplay wise...
 

Black Cat

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2007, 11:40:43 am »
Another point.... Half-giants are half-giant, half-human and gets "accepted" by both their parent race... that is Human and Giants...

Dwarves are ... dwarves and nowhere near humans... why should they share the views of humans on half-giants? they see someone big... bigger than most humans he has seen... most of the dwarves as was stated earlier had a history of war against Giants... so they can assume or believe they are facing a half-breed.

And most dwarves are not known for their leniancy or kindness towards monstrous race like Giants, Orcs... half-breed... hmm... elves... drows etc... They are IMO rather supiscious of most others who aren't dwarves. They are stubborn too and their beliefs are rather hard to change... dwarven trust , let alone friendship is a hard thing to gain.

But I agree, outright hostility is a bit too much. Suspicions and questions might arise and the dwarf might get very, very wary of the big guy.
 

Gunther

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2007, 11:52:33 am »
I tend to disagree.  I cant think that the child of a giant and human is all that commonplace of an occurrence, for a number of factors (ie, the actual meeting of a giant and human under circumstances conducive to ummmm...gettin it on, carrying the giantbaby to term afterwards, etc)  Certainly this wouldnt be more common than a large human being born.

I realize that now that the race options have opened up again, that there are probably halfgiants adventurers running amok everywhere.  I think thats probably an anomalous percentage though.  Besides, give it a couple months and all those halfgiant players will realize how tough it is to play a halfgiant.  I imagine their numbers will greatly decrease to a more probable amount.

As for halfgiants being accepted by giants, theres definitely a discrepancy there.  One portion of the halfgiant racial description states that they could expect the same greeting from giants as a human or elf could expect.  Another states that they are accepted by their parents race.

I like Interia's point.  A lot of the human fighter descriptions I see have their characters towering over average height, as perhaps it should be.
 

Interia_Discordius

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2007, 12:10:20 pm »
Well it bothers me that the height is the main argument over how you can tell it's a half-giant. Seven feet is a noticeable stretch, but mid six feet? Come on. That means you'd have to be suspicious of any tall human male, and I hardly see that...Not to mention any other tall race.

For example the half-orcs aren't treated much differently than a normal human, and I know a particular one that's HUGE in height. I forget what he had said, but it was a tilt your head back, far back, to see him right kind of height.

I think the best thing to do is to talk to the player OOC, check to see if it's at any height to be suspicious about, and if you think it's half-giant at 6'6'' ... Get ready to get icky around normal human male characters too. Distrust only goes so far among most, but when picking out a half-giant and giving them a hard time, remember to do the same to everyone else who matches the same sort of characteristics or talks a little funny and is a little too tall.

On the contrary argument, having a group of dwarves distrust a single half-giant sounds fine to me...IF they have grounds on knowing it's a half-giant. Going into the PvP widget sounds pretty big, and I can't imagine why someone would battle someone else without being 100% sure.


Let me get organized then...My brain's a bit scattered right now from my nap :)
Some things to consider?
1. Did you even talk to the player OOC about this? Obviously things can get nasty on the real life side if you don't keep a good, open communication.
2. Does your character have good grounds to know for sure the other character is a monstrous or hated race?
3. Does your character match alignment or racial tension or have some other roleplay reason to take it as far as PvP or somewhere very close, at least to making everyone around them hate that same PC?
4. Is making a band of racist dwarves, for example, alright with both players before being done? A community is involved with this, and so more care -should- be taken that everyone stays within polite lines during roleplay. We're all human, we can all get carried away :)
5. Again, same point as before, just making them organized. Make sure if the grounds you used to determine a half-giant is a half-giant is used on any other race that matches the height or have similar descriptions. Just because you know OOC it's a half-giant or that it's a human and not doesn't mean your character should know.

Just some things I thought would be important.
 

Honora

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2007, 01:03:53 pm »
Only marginally on topic but...does anyone else find it odd that half-orcs are so TALL in game?  Honora towers over every other model but the half-giant, but pure blood orcs are kind of...short?  I mean they are human height, maybe, or at least it seems.
 
 Wierd.  Some tall gene is unlocked when humans and orcs mate I suppose :).
 

Interia_Discordius

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2007, 01:05:20 pm »
Orcs should be much, much taller :)
At least...In my opinion!

Blasted NwN :(
 

Faldred

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2007, 01:14:58 pm »
Quote from: Gunther
Besides, give it a couple months and all those halfgiant players will realize how tough it is to play a halfgiant.
Amen to that, brother.  And that's not even including having to deal with dwarves who are uncivil (and in Zug's case, he walks around with Voraxian colors and symbols, and still gets met with bad attitudes from certain dwarves).

BTW, I love the title of the thread...  :)
 

Gunther

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2007, 02:05:53 pm »
Sorry Black Cat, I agree with you 100%.  If a dwarf KNOWS that its a halfgiant, then I would fully expect open hostility.  I wouldnt expect dwarves to accept a halfgiant because humans, elves, or anybody else accepts them.

My point is the dwarf wouldnt know, unless theres some mystic dwarven psychic ability, heretofore unmentioned in Lore.  The dwarf may well be suspicious, but then dwarves historically are suspicious creatures anyway, I dont want to take that away from ya.

I dont really buy the "I know because I'm a dwarf and we've been at war with giants for a long time".  How long have the dwarf PCs been fighting giants?  If they are currently adventurers, then they left their dwarf home at some point and time, probably when they were young.  Would the dwarf PC have spent that much time fighting giants if they left to become an adventurer?  I'm dubious.
 

lonnarin

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2007, 02:06:47 pm »
Dwarves SHOULD be predjudiced against tall humans, heck even short humans are too tall in their eyes.  Elves are even worse, being tall and scrawny and treehugging vegan beardless pointy eared fletchers who think it's being brave to hide in a shrub and shoot something 5,000 paces away in the back with a bow.  Humans are shortlived, wildeyed maniacs only slightly more tolerable than orcs, and with the unpredictable capacity for ultimate good and evil.  The Halforcs, halfgiants and halfogres are only further proof that the humans are little more than a fell race; after all nobody ever heard of a dwarf and an ogre... or even an elf producing such an unholy union!  All the more evidence that humans and elves are tainted; Obviously some curse stains their veins to be able to intermix with the demon spawned... dwarven blood is too holy, pure and stocky to EVER lower itself to producing anything other than perfectly perportioned, strong, healthy dwarf babies.  Though short, halflings are little more than wretched little coinpurse filchers with lies on their tongues, pink little gobbos at best!  Only the gnomes, cousins of the dwarves and born from the same rock are to be accepted by dwarves... and even they too much be watched intently, lest their idjut inventions explode and bring the whole caverns down upon us.

The only way for a halfgiant or ogre to be accepted among dwarves, they must do the following...
1) learn how to be a master smithy
2) worship Vorax fervently
3) renounce his vile fell heritage with every breath
4) be fixed so that he is not in danger of fathering further demonspawn halfbreeds
(of course, sadly, these are also the steps to take for most humans to be accepted by dwarves as well)

I think the problem isn't that dwarves are racist towards halfgiants, but that they aren't being racist to darn near every other race, especially the so-called "non-fell" races who meddle with magic and international politics.  A dwarf grouping with an elf from Voltrex should be at least as difficult as a human grouping with a full-blooded orc.

Now should dwarves KNOW that you're a half-giant just by looking at you? No, not absolutely... but if a dwarf met fully human Paul Wight/Big Show from WWE standing 7'4", he'd undoubtedly call him a Grannochspawn.  If you're 6'8"+ and are holding a greataxe with one hand and a shield in the other, the dwarf might not know absolutely that you are a half-giant, but he certainly shouldn't like you either... you're too tall.  That's just wrong... unnatural.

It's ultimately metagaming to think that somebody of such stature is a half-giant at all with their 7', fullplate, helmet, greataxe and shield up.  They SHOULD be thinking it's just a really well equipped full-blooded ogre. ;)
 

LynnJuniper

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2007, 02:20:32 pm »
Quote from: Interia_Discordius
Well, one of the things I want to point out...
We're all different heights, so although in-game Gunther appears to tower over us, I know a lot of human males choose their height around six feet also, so it shouldn't be such a huge difference roleplay wise...


In the Dark Ages, People were a lot smaller in general. :) You'd see this if you go to historical buildings in Europe and try to walk through a door.
 

Black Cat

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2007, 03:42:48 pm »
Quote from: LynnJuniper
In the Dark Ages, People were a lot smaller in general. :) You'd see this if you go to historical buildings in Europe and try to walk through a door.


Lol... true enough! I don't count the numbers of time I bumped my head on door's lintel in old castle ruins (and I'm a big fan of old ruins...)
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Vile racist dwarfs
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2007, 04:08:05 pm »
Quote from: Gunther

I'm not really sure what Stephen is alluding to.  I think any critter, whether it be dwarf, elf, etc that hangs out with dragons, would be somewhat questionable.


It was just an example of making assumptions... In this case, the example was taken from a quest. Did/does Pyyran KNOW that the kobolds he was bashing on were followers of Fisterion? Nope. But is that what he thinks? Ayup.

Does Pyyran KNOW that Daralith is a Drow? No, come to think of it. He's never seen a patch of the spidery bugger's skin. That said, he assumes that the fellow's a darkie. Enough signs...

;) That said, he also assumes that he's good enough to have found any traps in the area, most times... And that just because that little goblin there is terrified of you and has offered homage for ten years, he won't try cutting your throat in a heartbeat.

The power of assumption.

----

I've been wanting to play a Half-giant for a while... I really did wish I could've played a lawful one, though. Half-giant monk would've been nuts.

The fun part is that aye... I'd have played the fellow as looking just like a very large human. After all, that's more or less what they look like, according to the racial info. They look more human than most half-orcs...

That said, they are big. And dwarves shouldn't really trust much at all.
 

 

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