Vile racist dwarfs

[Gunther]

I dont disagree with the height of people in the dark ages.

Lonnarin's post does bring to mind another topic though.  Adventurers are pretty much outcasts to begin with.  Dwarves who leave the fold probably even moreso.  My tendency would be to think that those who choose the road as a way of life (and live long enough), would band together as a matter of mutual protection, race mostly nothwithstanding.  Drow, of course, being the obvious and glaring exception.  You never hear of bands of ravaging halfgiants roaming the countrysde, laying waste to villages and hamlets.

Yes, I agree with Lonnarin that dwarves are repugnant, hateful creatures that despise all the others races and arrogantly hold themselves as being superior to everyone around them.

Great post by the way Lonnarin!

[MJZ]

Ion, I think I burst some internal organs laughing. Long live gnomes. But.. one minor detail. Halflings have a reputation as thieves in the FR.... I never heard of it looking that way in Layo.

Elves are even worse, being tall and scrawny and treehugging vegan beardless pointy eared fletchers who think it's being brave to hide in a shrub and shoot something 5,000 paces away in the back with a bow.

Ahahah! It's so  true! But you know, I'm tired of people pretending elves are tall. 4'6" to 5'6" is not exactly tall. Dwarves stand around 4' - they should more often than not be roughly the same height as the elf. Still, scrawny and prissy.


*Is delightfully off-topic*

[hawklen]

I dont disagree with the height of people in the dark ages.

Lonnarin's post does bring to mind another topic though.  Adventurers are pretty much outcasts to begin with.  Dwarves who leave the fold probably even moreso.  My tendency would be to think that those who choose the road as a way of life (and live long enough), would band together as a matter of mutual protection, race mostly nothwithstanding.  Drow, of course, being the obvious and glaring exception.  You never hear of bands of ravaging halfgiants roaming the countrysde, laying waste to villages and hamlets.

Yes, I agree with Lonnarin that dwarves are repugnant, hateful creatures that despise all the others races and arrogantly hold themselves as being superior to everyone around them.

Great post by the way Lonnarin!

Hey my dwarf doesnt like dwarves much either, as someone said: "He's an elf trapped in dwarf body"

[Faldred]

But you know, I'm tired of people pretending elves are tall. 4'6" to 5'6" is not exactly tall. Dwarves stand around 4' - they should more often than not be roughly the same height as the elf. Still, scrawny and prissy.

I think people tend to confuse Tolkienish elves and D&D elves.  In Tolkien's books, elves are roughly the same height as humans, though over time elves diminished while humans grew.

In D&D, all the way back to AD&D 1st edition, elves were generally shorter than humans -- a tall elf would be taller than a short human, but not by much.

[hazardousindex]

I'm a relatively new player to Layonara, but I'm a grizzled old piece of leather jerkin when it comes to D&D. I understand where Gunther is coming from. A lot of people who play dwarves tend to fall into the habit of "racism" as a way to give their characters more flavor. This is a lazy and thoughtless way to play a dwarf, and is no doubt the cause of all the "vile racist dwarfs" which populate fantasy gameworlds. I agree with previous posters that a dwarven character would probably more likely be suspicious and wary rather than outright hostile. In fact, the D&D supplemental race handbook Races of Stone states that:

"When it comes to other races or cultures, dwarves are surprisingly tolerant, despite their firm belief in the rightness of their own ways. Regardless of his opinion of the people he meets, a well-mannered dwarf declines comment, looking on the matter as none of his business. His disapproval might be expressed in other ways, should someone's behavior violate his own beliefs too violently, but by and large, he leaves well enough alone. An old dwarven platitude states, 'You cannot spot the weakness in your own work by staring too long at someone else's.'" (RoS, page eight)

That being said, I don't at all agree with Gunther's claim that a dwarf would need a "psychological power" to be able to tell a character is a half-giant. I remember someone asking earlier just how much time dwarves spend fighting/studying giants. The very same book cited above states that dwarves begin militia training at 20 years of age until they reach maturity (In their 40s at least). This is where dwarves learn their combat abilities such as Urgrosh and Waraxe martial proficiency, their +1 to hit bonus against orcs, and their +4 dodge bonus against giants and giant-kin. That means the average dwarf spends at least 20 years training and studying to fight giants and orcs. Saying that character should then not be able to recognize a half-giant when he sees one is like saying a ranger shouldn't get his favored enemy: giants bonus damage against your character.

Now, of course, the bad thing about D&D rules is that they were meant to be broken. One dwarf is probably going to vary in vast ways from the next. And, it's entirely OK for Leanthar or any GM to say that none of the above information applies to dwarves in Layonara. But, as long as they get that +4 dodge bonus, it's a safe assumption for any dwarf character to see your half-giant and at least be pretty daggone suspicious.

Last but not least, you have the metagame aspect of it all. The simple fact is, you don't know the stats, background, or alignment of any dwarf your character is interacting with. Let's not forget that dwarves are churlish, surly, and generally more hard-headed than the rocks they make their homes among. Maybe the guy yelling at you has 6 or 8 charisma? He obviously sees you're a half-giant, and has chosen his reaction. It's all something that just has to be dealt with in-character. As I recall, half-giants get some pretty awesome stat bonuses that make them nigh-unstoppable beasts in melee combat. The only real minus they get of any consequence is to intelligence (more important in tabletop, less so in online NWN) and charisma. If that means you have to deal with suspicious, maybe downright hostile dwarves in order to get your righteous strength and constitution bonuses, then all is as it should be. It's unrealistic to expect to be able to get all the half-giant bonuses, and yet get off the hook roleplaywise because you "look like a tall human." Albino Drow, anyone? Why not just make a tall human in the first place?

That's my two cents. And to all those "vile racist dwarves" out there: pick up a copy of Races of Stone and read it. Know that the dwarven people are more than a bunch of axe-swinging racists! Stop giving our awesome race a bad name!

[Faldred]

As I recall, half-giants get some pretty awesome stat bonuses that make them nigh-unstoppable beasts in melee combat. The only real minus they get of any consequence is to intelligence (more important in tabletop, less so in online NWN) and charisma.

Meh.  As a half-giant player, I can say these "immense" bonuses are overrated.  The combined STR bonus is somewhat offset by a -2 to-hit penalty, so while you'll do more damage on an average hit, you're as likely miss as the human standing next to you (and slightly less likely to hit than the dwarf or half-orc on the other side) with the same point buy.

The extra CON is nice (+2 HP per level), but for the price of a LA +2?  It's pretty rough...

[Gunther]

Being a halfgiant is no treat.  Yes, there are some perks to it, but the offset is atrocious will saving throws.  That might not seem like much, but when you get to a certain point, you begin to run into a lot more spell hurling critters and effects.

That and the ECL3 make for a tough combo.

On the other hand, when faced with regular hand to hand combat, they are very tough.  If you can stand playing one long enough to advance in levels.  For example, look at all the epic and world leader characters.  Not a one is a halfgiant.  I think I might well be the highest level halfgiant at level 20.  I believe Micheal Mordecai got to 20th also, but thats it.  Nobody past 20th, as far as I know its never happened.

I'm not complaining, otherwise I wouldnt be playing Gunther.  But its a very big tradeoff.  Dont think for a minute that it isnt.