The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => Ask A Gamemaster => Topic started by: Gunther on April 09, 2007, 07:48:59 pm
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Heh. This has come up twice in the past couple weeks or so and I've never seen it before, so I thought I'd ask....
Dwarves seem to be detecting that Gunther is a halfgiant and responding accordingly. I dont have a problem with their reaction, but how exactly are they supposedly so insightful? The concept that they spend their lives fighting giants and can therefore automatically detect their blood, even diluted, doesnt seem practical. I'll readily admist that I havent checked lore on dwarves (and I will do so asap), but I have a hard time imagining that such a thing is an automatic check.
I am adverse to PvP, but this is heading in that direction, and I'd as soon get some direction on this prior to it going that far.
Thanks
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Uh...does Gunther notice how big he is?
is going off of the looks the NWN game gives metagaming? Could you be considered just a really big guy?
So yeah! More questions for clarification!
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Actually, under the halfgiant heading in the handbook, its states that halfgiants can be taken for human barbarians for their large stocky build. Or something like that.
Halfgiants are only 6'6 to 8'. Admittedly, anyone 8' would really stand out, but humans have grown that big. Perhaps due to acromegaly, or whatever that condition is, but nonetheless, not impossible.
I cant change Gunther's avatar, and wouldnt want to, but this does seem to border on metagaming. Thanks for the word I was looking for.
I also find it ironic that for 1.5 years, nobody cared that Gunther was a halfgiant, then PvP came out and this issue has appeared.
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I should think people could be a little more discreet about it - give your character suspicious, appraising looks, unless they have had many dealings with half-giants. A character of mine has thought a half-giant was simply a very large human, it depends a lot on the appearance and comportment of the half-giant in question, I'd say.
It shouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume that there is some giant blood in there for those in the know, but if every dwarf you come across is doing it... I'd agree that it's being excessive.
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I'm not sure if it's as much as the PvP thing that came out that made people more racist against monstrous races, but moreso a recent discussion that questioned about how to treat them. That and, Port Hempstead themselves have made some decision not to treat them very kindly, or something like that...Could be influenced by that.
Although, characters who didn't care before who care now without a seemingly good reason is sort of strange :)
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I disagree. Why would an enormous man not be considered immediately to have giant blood in him? His avatar is huge, his CHA is probably shockingly low, and his STR insanely high (I'm only guessing on those stats). With monstrous race comes monstrous RP. Some races can hide themselves beneath the veil of hoods, giants would probably stand out like a sore thumb.
The one exception I would agree with would be if the halfgiant's char submission indicated human proportions and their stats reflected that initial starting stamina.
Why should drow get all the (un)love?
:-)
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I disagree. Why would an enormous man not be considered immediately to have giant blood in him? His avatar is huge, his CHA is probably shockingly low, and his STR insanely high (I'm only guessing on those stats). With monstrous race comes monstrous RP. Some races can hide themselves beneath the veil of hoods, giants would probably stand out like a sore thumb.
The one exception I would agree with would be if the halfgiant's char submission indicated human proportions and their stats reflected that initial starting stamina.
Why should drow get all the (un)love?
:-)
I'm with you on this one, Pen. If a Half-Giant differs in any way, and somehow appear more human than not, that should either be apparent from the description that people can examine, or "emoted" as you are approached. Otherwise it is impossible for anyone to know exactly how you look, assuming it is different from how a Half-Giant usually looks, of course. But yes, if you are just any run-of-the-mill Half-Giant (appearance-wise), you should definitely expect people to notice that. You are huge, after all. And ugly. Huge and ugly. Heh, no offence.
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Haha well said, Pen - that's what I meant about it depending on the appearance of the said half-giant, and such. Character descriptions, people!
I still say that shouting out "half giant!!" on sight is a bit excessive for every dwarf or such to be doing. Would it be supremely easy to tell a half-giant apart from say, a half-ogre, unless you had seen more than one specimen of each type? I don't think I would be able to do it on immediate sight.. Especially if the PC is decked out in full armor, which a few are.
I agree with you that a half-giant would definitely not blend in with the crowd. I just think a little more RP and discretion could be in order. Like, emoting your character's suspicion before you draw the conclusion. Just to add some thought process and padding in there, if the half-giant isn't 8', drooling, and wearing a loincloth. :D
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Alright. Lets go off of the actual halfgiant description before we go too far amok.....
....Halfgiants are usually widely accepted among humans....
Not sure what that means to everyone else. To me it means that they are not lumped in with goblins and orcs. Perhaps not so much because they have the appearance of a normal human, but because they normally are raised by humans, in human dominated areas.
I have a good friend of mine thats 6'5", 300 pounds. Yes, I do call him sasquatch. My boss is also 6'6", 400 pounds (I think probably a bit more actually). It isnt unheard of. People grow that big without being monsters. Though at times, my boss, is indeed, a monster.
Where everybody got this idea that halfgiants are monsters and should be treated as such is beyond me. But this is about dwarves, not humans or acceptance in communities.
By the way, Gunther wears full plate and a helmet at all times. His CHA is 8 (low, but not run away screaming in fear), his str is 32 (with magic items).
Anyway....automatic detection by dwarves...is this a racial ability?
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half giant, half ogre, half orc it should be hard to tell them apart unless you are say a ranger that has studied how to fight giants, or a Druid that well just know those kind of things, or a wizard that has studied for many years, or a Bard that know the lore of the land and has traveled the world, or a adventurer that has traveled with some of their kind.... oops that is almost everyone LOL
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First off, not only are half-giants big, they are half-giant. They will most certainly have features similar to their giant parent as well as their human, so it is a slightly different case then a human who is very tall and very heavy.
Second, dwarves have combat training against giants, often, although not always, compete with them for dominance in their homes and often, though again not always, have a long history of animosity to giants. So for them to know as much about giant apprearance as a ranger or bard is not too much of a stretch I think.
Even amongst humans it is relatively easyt to spot someone who is say, half-japanese, half-english. So I think it would become easier when the race being bred with the human is a giant.
As always there are a thousand interesting and plausible exceptions to the rule. But generally I would have no problem spotting that a half-giant was half-something. And when confronted in the past I would make whatever call about their mixed heritage that I felt like a the moment, and often be wrong.
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Not to kick this dead horse any further......but please, please, please actually read the PH bit on halfgiants before lumping them in with monstrous races. Thats all I ask (and its going further off topic).
According to the PH...."Halfgiants as a general rule tend to get along well with both their parent races, and have better relations with both than say, half-elves."
Why this assumption that halfgiants are monsters when the above clearly states otherwise? My understanding of the above is that halfgiants are more readily accepted than halfelves. Are halfelves being booted out of Hempstead and other communities?
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not monsters but monstrous races their is a dif.
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At least some of this is a result of the alignments being changed. The LORE entry is pre-"monsterous" and at that time of course you could be a LG half-giant if you wished, where as now even LN is forbidden as a starting alignment. So the "new" racial ability would seem to be an out of game reaction carried in game regarding the change in base attitude.
My 2 True.
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Don't feel bad, they're just jealous of how big you are.
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I stated in the first paragraph of my last post...monstrous races....
However, that doesnt answer the question about how halfgiants are more accepted than halfelves, but are now regarded as outcasts?
Is there something that I missed?
Second of all, you have a good point in that you would think there would be racial characteristics passed on to the halfgiant. And there are, it states that halfgiants are hairless (weird, but ok). And they have a large forehead. And that they can pass as a barbarian (I assume that means human barbarian and that they can pass as a human).
Thats it. No mention of pointy ears like an elf or halfelf, no other distinguishing characteristics.
So, which would be more commonplace? A very large human, or the automatic assumption it must be a halfgiant, because its big.
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I'm with you Gunther, that given their descriptions, half-giants would be so easily detectable, especially with armor and helm equipped. Perhaps given the nature of a world where giants are prevalent, the first assumption is giant ancestry rather than a fluke of genetics (genetics being a concept whcih most, if any, people on Layo would not be familiar with). Still, this doesn't adress their common acceptance being high, even if it says nothing of how races other than humans and giants treat them. So I share your worry, Gunther, that something more subjective, even OOC, may be playng a factor in your character's sudden "persecution." Case and point, I have recently decided to display the color of my character's skin, which happens to be blue. Very blue. I have received quite a few shocked faces, responses, and head turnings, but strangely, not a single person has directly challenged or raised the question of race in-character to Steel. Apparently, everyone loves blue people because.... well, they're blue... and don't they have some sort of band where they play drums on trashcans and have cool lighting effects, and... err, wait... Yeah. Why would a creature like a half-giant, that is apparently less likely to show off significant "abnormal" qualities than even a half-orc be challenged when there are so many other more obvious cases (like drow, as has been mentioned) which are over-looked?
And no, unless the dwarf has the "scent" feat (and even then, it might be questionable), no dwarf can automatically smell, sense, or in any way definitely detect the blood of a giant coursing through someone's veins (particularly since Layo doesn't allow for DNA testing and such, though I might give that some amount of divination might offer an answer, such a practice is not in the ability of the common dwarf).
A dwarf might suspect giant heritage, from the couple of apparent differences from a "normal" human, but unless he just decided to act on his assumption (or what someone else told him, which falls under assumption, as it's a secondary source), or Gunther told the dwarf himself, the dwarf has no justification in challenging Gunther on the grounds that he's a half-giant.
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To me, this reads that the description ought to be changed. I don't know that I've ever seen a half-giant who really fits the "gentle giant" description, so acceptance is way less likely than being ostracized.
More to the point, "more likely to be accepted than half-elves" always struck me to mean in terms of the kind of places where a violent, huge human would be accepted. Half-elves are strange to either race, regardless of the community in which they live. But a half-giant at a tea party would always be an oddity, whether or not a more barbaric society accepts them.
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Just to play the devil's advocate...
Never doubt the power of assumptions, especially when they reach the masses. Sometimes they're right, sometimes not... But honestly, is it always metagaming when a character makes an assumption that's right?
Pyyran's bashing some kobolds... And one of 'em has Pyrtechonian runes all over him. Wow! Fisty's troops? Seems like a reasonable assumption, though it is, admittedly, a bit of a jump.
Seven foot tall human with a love of hippogriffs and dragons? Heh. Well, kinda obvious, there.
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When I see someone of unusual looks, I usually just send a tell, asking if their race is obvious. Sometimes they "yes, he's obviously an 8 feet tall half-giant" and other times they just say "well, he's big and no entirely human" and then I use that as a basis for my roleplay.
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It makes sense to me. Your typical halfgiant is probably not the result of an amorous meeting between a human male and a lusty giant female. Your typical halfgiant is probably therefore raised by his female human parent. In a human community. Amongst humans. Maybe not a common sight, but one that is seen.
As the halfgiant is raised amongst humans (usually), it would be more accepted. Even seen as human. As the description reads above, the only noticeable difference is 'hairlessness and a big forehead'. Look at Andre the Giant. Seven foot tall. Definitely an odd appearance. Human? Yeah, I'm guessing so. I think any regular human that grows to that size (not just height), would bear a rather remarkable appearance.
As for Darkstorme's argument that you havent met a 'gentle giant', therefore they should be ostracized, I think it might be somewhat fallacious. What you may mean, is that you havent seen a 'gentle adventurer giant'. I'm guessing that (just as with humans, elves, dwarves, etc) that there are halfgiant NPCs out there farming, mining, etc. I also think the majority of societies in Layo would be more barbaric societies. Amongst the largely peasant population, there probably wouldnt be many tea parties at all. Someone with the size and strength of a halfgiant would be greatly appreciated in an society that isnt industrialized.
I'm not really sure what Stephen is alluding to. I think any critter, whether it be dwarf, elf, etc that hangs out with dragons, would be somewhat questionable.
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I'll be darned. I just read the new alignments section and halfgiant PCs must be TN,CN,LE, or NE.
Guess they are evil. Or close to it. If Leanthar says so, I guess that has to be good enough for me.
Alright, I guess they are ostracized. I guess Gunther better change his alignment. Unless theres a 'grandfather' clause
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Not to kick this dead horse any further......but please, please, please actually read the PH bit on halfgiants before lumping them in with monstrous races. Thats all I ask (and its going further off topic).
According to the PH...."Halfgiants as a general rule tend to get along well with both their parent races, and have better relations with both than say, half-elves."
Why this assumption that halfgiants are monsters when the above clearly states otherwise? My understanding of the above is that halfgiants are more readily accepted than halfelves. Are halfelves being booted out of Hempstead and other communities?
From what I gather from that, it means half giants get along with their parents better than half elves, as with half elves, their elven parent is always saddened, because he/she knows he/she will out live their child. *shrugs* Always what I have gotten out of it.
As for the dwarf thing. They I think, not so much smell, but a feeling, a vibe the halfgiant gives off. They have been fighting for centuries so some sort of empathy would develop between the two races.
Thats my three cents.
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I'll be darned. I just read the new alignments section and halfgiant PCs must be TN,CN,LE, or NE.
Guess they are evil. Or close to it. If Leanthar says so, I guess that has to be good enough for me.
Alright, I guess they are ostracized. I guess Gunther better change his alignment. Unless theres a 'grandfather' clause
The usual premise on any major rule change is that anything that existed before the rule change (barring some major game-breaking issues) is grandfathered in. Gunther gets to stay as good as he likes to be. (And Half-Giant PCs only need to start TN, etc.)
As for my argument - if you're a Half-Giant born of an encounter betwixt a human woman and a roving giant, I don't think you'd be likely to have too nice a childhood - and thus I would suspect that more half-giants are prone to adventuring than their human brethren.
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I play a dwarf and when a Half-giant comes to the same area, my dwarf makes the first and for him the safest assumtion there is: it's big, bigger than average humans;
Having dealt a lot with giants, he doesn't smell or "detect" that the incoming persona is a half-giant, he simply has dealt with far too many giants and has met too many half-giants to let his guard down and makes the safest assumption.
He doesn't go for his axe and charge at the suspicious character, yet is vary and ready if need arises.
Most half-giants do carry some characteristics from their giant-kin, so they'll look awkward in a crowd of human folk.
Anyway, that's how I play it...
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Q: How does one distinguish half-giants/half-ogres/half-orcs from humans?
A: They are bigger. There are of course smaller details but those might not be what "commoners" would be aware of.
Q: How can one be sure that it's not a human with big bones and an ugly face?
A: One can't so very easily, unless one is specialized in half-"monster" hunting.
Q: What does this mean?
A: Very big "pure" humans would most probably also get a half-"monster" stamp on him/her.
This is my own view on this topic... At least to detect half-"monster" races. :)
But how to react...? Hmm... Dunno...
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Here is my view on it.
Just because you were raised by humans or non-monstrous race would not make you accepted. People usually judge on race and not on an individual. So if you drow, no matter who raised you, you will be hated on sight most likely. I agree half-giants/half-orcs would be less easily spotted, but there mere size would be a give-away. The way I see it the chances are better it is a half-giant than just being a huge human.
As for half-elf, I think the passage you quoted stated that that half-giants are accepted by both their parent races. Which also means a half-giant could easily be working with or for giants. Humans and especially dwarves dont really accept giants, so why woudl the accept the half-giant that might be aligned with the giants.
Half-elfs are on the other not generally accepted by both their parent's races, as elf kind of look down on the "bastard elf" not being pure. So that means half-elfs are less common amongst elves than what they would be under humans. But seeing as humans generally accept elfs I dont see that they would not accept half-elfs.
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At least some of this is a result of the alignments being changed. The LORE entry is pre-"monsterous" and at that time of course you could be a LG half-giant if you wished, where as now even LN is forbidden as a starting alignment. So the "new" racial ability would seem to be an out of game reaction carried in game regarding the change in base attitude.
My 2 True.
Actually, as long as I've been here, half-giants could not start the game with a Lawful alignment of any type. In V2, the only valid starting HG alignments were NG, CG, TN, and, for those who qualified, CN. In V3, NG and CG are taken away, NE is added, and there's ongoing debate about whether LE is allowed. ;)
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Well, one of the things I want to point out...
We're all different heights, so although in-game Gunther appears to tower over us, I know a lot of human males choose their height around six feet also, so it shouldn't be such a huge difference roleplay wise...
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Another point.... Half-giants are half-giant, half-human and gets "accepted" by both their parent race... that is Human and Giants...
Dwarves are ... dwarves and nowhere near humans... why should they share the views of humans on half-giants? they see someone big... bigger than most humans he has seen... most of the dwarves as was stated earlier had a history of war against Giants... so they can assume or believe they are facing a half-breed.
And most dwarves are not known for their leniancy or kindness towards monstrous race like Giants, Orcs... half-breed... hmm... elves... drows etc... They are IMO rather supiscious of most others who aren't dwarves. They are stubborn too and their beliefs are rather hard to change... dwarven trust , let alone friendship is a hard thing to gain.
But I agree, outright hostility is a bit too much. Suspicions and questions might arise and the dwarf might get very, very wary of the big guy.
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I tend to disagree. I cant think that the child of a giant and human is all that commonplace of an occurrence, for a number of factors (ie, the actual meeting of a giant and human under circumstances conducive to ummmm...gettin it on, carrying the giantbaby to term afterwards, etc) Certainly this wouldnt be more common than a large human being born.
I realize that now that the race options have opened up again, that there are probably halfgiants adventurers running amok everywhere. I think thats probably an anomalous percentage though. Besides, give it a couple months and all those halfgiant players will realize how tough it is to play a halfgiant. I imagine their numbers will greatly decrease to a more probable amount.
As for halfgiants being accepted by giants, theres definitely a discrepancy there. One portion of the halfgiant racial description states that they could expect the same greeting from giants as a human or elf could expect. Another states that they are accepted by their parents race.
I like Interia's point. A lot of the human fighter descriptions I see have their characters towering over average height, as perhaps it should be.
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Well it bothers me that the height is the main argument over how you can tell it's a half-giant. Seven feet is a noticeable stretch, but mid six feet? Come on. That means you'd have to be suspicious of any tall human male, and I hardly see that...Not to mention any other tall race.
For example the half-orcs aren't treated much differently than a normal human, and I know a particular one that's HUGE in height. I forget what he had said, but it was a tilt your head back, far back, to see him right kind of height.
I think the best thing to do is to talk to the player OOC, check to see if it's at any height to be suspicious about, and if you think it's half-giant at 6'6'' ... Get ready to get icky around normal human male characters too. Distrust only goes so far among most, but when picking out a half-giant and giving them a hard time, remember to do the same to everyone else who matches the same sort of characteristics or talks a little funny and is a little too tall.
On the contrary argument, having a group of dwarves distrust a single half-giant sounds fine to me...IF they have grounds on knowing it's a half-giant. Going into the PvP widget sounds pretty big, and I can't imagine why someone would battle someone else without being 100% sure.
Let me get organized then...My brain's a bit scattered right now from my nap :)
Some things to consider?
1. Did you even talk to the player OOC about this? Obviously things can get nasty on the real life side if you don't keep a good, open communication.
2. Does your character have good grounds to know for sure the other character is a monstrous or hated race?
3. Does your character match alignment or racial tension or have some other roleplay reason to take it as far as PvP or somewhere very close, at least to making everyone around them hate that same PC?
4. Is making a band of racist dwarves, for example, alright with both players before being done? A community is involved with this, and so more care -should- be taken that everyone stays within polite lines during roleplay. We're all human, we can all get carried away :)
5. Again, same point as before, just making them organized. Make sure if the grounds you used to determine a half-giant is a half-giant is used on any other race that matches the height or have similar descriptions. Just because you know OOC it's a half-giant or that it's a human and not doesn't mean your character should know.
Just some things I thought would be important.
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Only marginally on topic but...does anyone else find it odd that half-orcs are so TALL in game? Honora towers over every other model but the half-giant, but pure blood orcs are kind of...short? I mean they are human height, maybe, or at least it seems.
Wierd. Some tall gene is unlocked when humans and orcs mate I suppose :).
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Orcs should be much, much taller :)
At least...In my opinion!
Blasted NwN :(
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Besides, give it a couple months and all those halfgiant players will realize how tough it is to play a halfgiant.
Amen to that, brother. And that's not even including having to deal with dwarves who are uncivil (and in Zug's case, he walks around with Voraxian colors and symbols, and still gets met with bad attitudes from certain dwarves).
BTW, I love the title of the thread... :)
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Sorry Black Cat, I agree with you 100%. If a dwarf KNOWS that its a halfgiant, then I would fully expect open hostility. I wouldnt expect dwarves to accept a halfgiant because humans, elves, or anybody else accepts them.
My point is the dwarf wouldnt know, unless theres some mystic dwarven psychic ability, heretofore unmentioned in Lore. The dwarf may well be suspicious, but then dwarves historically are suspicious creatures anyway, I dont want to take that away from ya.
I dont really buy the "I know because I'm a dwarf and we've been at war with giants for a long time". How long have the dwarf PCs been fighting giants? If they are currently adventurers, then they left their dwarf home at some point and time, probably when they were young. Would the dwarf PC have spent that much time fighting giants if they left to become an adventurer? I'm dubious.
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Dwarves SHOULD be predjudiced against tall humans, heck even short humans are too tall in their eyes. Elves are even worse, being tall and scrawny and treehugging vegan beardless pointy eared fletchers who think it's being brave to hide in a shrub and shoot something 5,000 paces away in the back with a bow. Humans are shortlived, wildeyed maniacs only slightly more tolerable than orcs, and with the unpredictable capacity for ultimate good and evil. The Halforcs, halfgiants and halfogres are only further proof that the humans are little more than a fell race; after all nobody ever heard of a dwarf and an ogre... or even an elf producing such an unholy union! All the more evidence that humans and elves are tainted; Obviously some curse stains their veins to be able to intermix with the demon spawned... dwarven blood is too holy, pure and stocky to EVER lower itself to producing anything other than perfectly perportioned, strong, healthy dwarf babies. Though short, halflings are little more than wretched little coinpurse filchers with lies on their tongues, pink little gobbos at best! Only the gnomes, cousins of the dwarves and born from the same rock are to be accepted by dwarves... and even they too much be watched intently, lest their idjut inventions explode and bring the whole caverns down upon us.
The only way for a halfgiant or ogre to be accepted among dwarves, they must do the following...
1) learn how to be a master smithy
2) worship Vorax fervently
3) renounce his vile fell heritage with every breath
4) be fixed so that he is not in danger of fathering further demonspawn halfbreeds
(of course, sadly, these are also the steps to take for most humans to be accepted by dwarves as well)
I think the problem isn't that dwarves are racist towards halfgiants, but that they aren't being racist to darn near every other race, especially the so-called "non-fell" races who meddle with magic and international politics. A dwarf grouping with an elf from Voltrex should be at least as difficult as a human grouping with a full-blooded orc.
Now should dwarves KNOW that you're a half-giant just by looking at you? No, not absolutely... but if a dwarf met fully human Paul Wight/Big Show from WWE standing 7'4", he'd undoubtedly call him a Grannochspawn. If you're 6'8"+ and are holding a greataxe with one hand and a shield in the other, the dwarf might not know absolutely that you are a half-giant, but he certainly shouldn't like you either... you're too tall. That's just wrong... unnatural.
It's ultimately metagaming to think that somebody of such stature is a half-giant at all with their 7', fullplate, helmet, greataxe and shield up. They SHOULD be thinking it's just a really well equipped full-blooded ogre. ;)
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Well, one of the things I want to point out...
We're all different heights, so although in-game Gunther appears to tower over us, I know a lot of human males choose their height around six feet also, so it shouldn't be such a huge difference roleplay wise...
In the Dark Ages, People were a lot smaller in general. :) You'd see this if you go to historical buildings in Europe and try to walk through a door.
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In the Dark Ages, People were a lot smaller in general. :) You'd see this if you go to historical buildings in Europe and try to walk through a door.
Lol... true enough! I don't count the numbers of time I bumped my head on door's lintel in old castle ruins (and I'm a big fan of old ruins...)
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I'm not really sure what Stephen is alluding to. I think any critter, whether it be dwarf, elf, etc that hangs out with dragons, would be somewhat questionable.
It was just an example of making assumptions... In this case, the example was taken from a quest. Did/does Pyyran KNOW that the kobolds he was bashing on were followers of Fisterion? Nope. But is that what he thinks? Ayup.
Does Pyyran KNOW that Daralith is a Drow? No, come to think of it. He's never seen a patch of the spidery bugger's skin. That said, he assumes that the fellow's a darkie. Enough signs...
;) That said, he also assumes that he's good enough to have found any traps in the area, most times... And that just because that little goblin there is terrified of you and has offered homage for ten years, he won't try cutting your throat in a heartbeat.
The power of assumption.
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I've been wanting to play a Half-giant for a while... I really did wish I could've played a lawful one, though. Half-giant monk would've been nuts.
The fun part is that aye... I'd have played the fellow as looking just like a very large human. After all, that's more or less what they look like, according to the racial info. They look more human than most half-orcs...
That said, they are big. And dwarves shouldn't really trust much at all.
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I dont disagree with the height of people in the dark ages.
Lonnarin's post does bring to mind another topic though. Adventurers are pretty much outcasts to begin with. Dwarves who leave the fold probably even moreso. My tendency would be to think that those who choose the road as a way of life (and live long enough), would band together as a matter of mutual protection, race mostly nothwithstanding. Drow, of course, being the obvious and glaring exception. You never hear of bands of ravaging halfgiants roaming the countrysde, laying waste to villages and hamlets.
Yes, I agree with Lonnarin that dwarves are repugnant, hateful creatures that despise all the others races and arrogantly hold themselves as being superior to everyone around them.
Great post by the way Lonnarin!
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Ion, I think I burst some internal organs laughing. Long live gnomes. But.. one minor detail. Halflings have a reputation as thieves in the FR.... I never heard of it looking that way in Layo. :P
Elves are even worse, being tall and scrawny and treehugging vegan beardless pointy eared fletchers who think it's being brave to hide in a shrub and shoot something 5,000 paces away in the back with a bow.
:D Ahahah! It's so true! But you know, I'm tired of people pretending elves are tall. 4'6" to 5'6" is not exactly tall. Dwarves stand around 4' - they should more often than not be roughly the same height as the elf. Still, scrawny and prissy.
*Is delightfully off-topic*
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I dont disagree with the height of people in the dark ages.
Lonnarin's post does bring to mind another topic though. Adventurers are pretty much outcasts to begin with. Dwarves who leave the fold probably even moreso. My tendency would be to think that those who choose the road as a way of life (and live long enough), would band together as a matter of mutual protection, race mostly nothwithstanding. Drow, of course, being the obvious and glaring exception. You never hear of bands of ravaging halfgiants roaming the countrysde, laying waste to villages and hamlets.
Yes, I agree with Lonnarin that dwarves are repugnant, hateful creatures that despise all the others races and arrogantly hold themselves as being superior to everyone around them.
Great post by the way Lonnarin!
Hey my dwarf doesnt like dwarves much either, as someone said: "He's an elf trapped in dwarf body"
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But you know, I'm tired of people pretending elves are tall. 4'6" to 5'6" is not exactly tall. Dwarves stand around 4' - they should more often than not be roughly the same height as the elf. Still, scrawny and prissy.
I think people tend to confuse Tolkienish elves and D&D elves. In Tolkien's books, elves are roughly the same height as humans, though over time elves diminished while humans grew.
In D&D, all the way back to AD&D 1st edition, elves were generally shorter than humans -- a tall elf would be taller than a short human, but not by much.
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I'm a relatively new player to Layonara, but I'm a grizzled old piece of leather jerkin when it comes to D&D. I understand where Gunther is coming from. A lot of people who play dwarves tend to fall into the habit of "racism" as a way to give their characters more flavor. This is a lazy and thoughtless way to play a dwarf, and is no doubt the cause of all the "vile racist dwarfs" which populate fantasy gameworlds. I agree with previous posters that a dwarven character would probably more likely be suspicious and wary rather than outright hostile. In fact, the D&D supplemental race handbook Races of Stone states that:
"When it comes to other races or cultures, dwarves are surprisingly tolerant, despite their firm belief in the rightness of their own ways. Regardless of his opinion of the people he meets, a well-mannered dwarf declines comment, looking on the matter as none of his business. His disapproval might be expressed in other ways, should someone's behavior violate his own beliefs too violently, but by and large, he leaves well enough alone. An old dwarven platitude states, 'You cannot spot the weakness in your own work by staring too long at someone else's.'" (RoS, page eight)
That being said, I don't at all agree with Gunther's claim that a dwarf would need a "psychological power" to be able to tell a character is a half-giant. I remember someone asking earlier just how much time dwarves spend fighting/studying giants. The very same book cited above states that dwarves begin militia training at 20 years of age until they reach maturity (In their 40s at least). This is where dwarves learn their combat abilities such as Urgrosh and Waraxe martial proficiency, their +1 to hit bonus against orcs, and their +4 dodge bonus against giants and giant-kin. That means the average dwarf spends at least 20 years training and studying to fight giants and orcs. Saying that character should then not be able to recognize a half-giant when he sees one is like saying a ranger shouldn't get his favored enemy: giants bonus damage against your character.
Now, of course, the bad thing about D&D rules is that they were meant to be broken. One dwarf is probably going to vary in vast ways from the next. And, it's entirely OK for Leanthar or any GM to say that none of the above information applies to dwarves in Layonara. But, as long as they get that +4 dodge bonus, it's a safe assumption for any dwarf character to see your half-giant and at least be pretty daggone suspicious.
Last but not least, you have the metagame aspect of it all. The simple fact is, you don't know the stats, background, or alignment of any dwarf your character is interacting with. Let's not forget that dwarves are churlish, surly, and generally more hard-headed than the rocks they make their homes among. Maybe the guy yelling at you has 6 or 8 charisma? He obviously sees you're a half-giant, and has chosen his reaction. It's all something that just has to be dealt with in-character. As I recall, half-giants get some pretty awesome stat bonuses that make them nigh-unstoppable beasts in melee combat. The only real minus they get of any consequence is to intelligence (more important in tabletop, less so in online NWN) and charisma. If that means you have to deal with suspicious, maybe downright hostile dwarves in order to get your righteous strength and constitution bonuses, then all is as it should be. It's unrealistic to expect to be able to get all the half-giant bonuses, and yet get off the hook roleplaywise because you "look like a tall human." Albino Drow, anyone? Why not just make a tall human in the first place?
That's my two cents. And to all those "vile racist dwarves" out there: pick up a copy of Races of Stone and read it. Know that the dwarven people are more than a bunch of axe-swinging racists! Stop giving our awesome race a bad name!
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As I recall, half-giants get some pretty awesome stat bonuses that make them nigh-unstoppable beasts in melee combat. The only real minus they get of any consequence is to intelligence (more important in tabletop, less so in online NWN) and charisma.
Meh. As a half-giant player, I can say these "immense" bonuses are overrated. The combined STR bonus is somewhat offset by a -2 to-hit penalty, so while you'll do more damage on an average hit, you're as likely miss as the human standing next to you (and slightly less likely to hit than the dwarf or half-orc on the other side) with the same point buy.
The extra CON is nice (+2 HP per level), but for the price of a LA +2? It's pretty rough...
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Being a halfgiant is no treat. Yes, there are some perks to it, but the offset is atrocious will saving throws. That might not seem like much, but when you get to a certain point, you begin to run into a lot more spell hurling critters and effects.
That and the ECL3 make for a tough combo.
On the other hand, when faced with regular hand to hand combat, they are very tough. If you can stand playing one long enough to advance in levels. For example, look at all the epic and world leader characters. Not a one is a halfgiant. I think I might well be the highest level halfgiant at level 20. I believe Micheal Mordecai got to 20th also, but thats it. Nobody past 20th, as far as I know its never happened.
I'm not complaining, otherwise I wouldnt be playing Gunther. But its a very big tradeoff. Dont think for a minute that it isnt.