What Are Mantras Anyway?

[Gulnyr]

[post=1553532]As I was saying[/post], we're getting lots of nice information about the deities, but there's no information on just exactly what mantras are.  It sounds like they might kinda-sorta take the place of D&D-style alignments.  Maybe.  

Here are my main questions, at least for now:

• What are mantras?  What does each term actually mean?
• How should they be treated as we consider the MMO?  Are they binding and essential to followers of deities, or are they vague suggestions that might be worth considering for a faithful character?
• Should we be concerned with mantras now, here in NWN?  If so, do the answers to the point above apply, too?

[orth]

I'll followup with a devlog entry introducing mantras in greater detail within a couple days but just wanted to comment on your third point.

Ed can correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know they were input into LORE just to ease a transition to the MMO in terms of prepopulating the appropriate data into what will become the LORE system for the MMO.  They do no harm in terms of giving the existing population an idea of the personal traits of the deities but in no direct terms are they mandatory for adherence when it comes to worship in the NWN scope.  In fact without a better understanding of the whole mantra system it would be difficult to grasp how the deity's mantras fits worshippers in NWN.

[EdTheKet]

Ed can correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know they were input into LORE just to ease a transition to the MMO in terms of prepopulating the appropriate data into what will become the LORE system for the MMO.  They do no harm in terms of giving the existing population an idea of the personal traits of the deities but in no direct terms are they mandatory for adherence when it comes to worship in the NWN scope.  In fact without a better understanding of the whole mantra system it would be difficult to grasp how the deity's mantras fits worshippers in NWN.

Correct!

And all NWN/D&D stuff was moved to a separate page (or will be moved for deities that haven't been posted fully yet).

[Gulnyr]

This is what I mean about the confusion of MMO info without MMO rules.  If the mantras are not actually in use now, then there are already [post=1553902]two sets of lore[/post] to keep track of - the lore posted for the MMO and the lore we need to know to submit and play faithful characters correctly in NWN.  Can you see how a new player may be confused after reading that, say, a Rofirein mantra is "Honest" but dishonest Rofireinites are submitted and approved?  I'm confused and I'm not new (and I only pick on Rofi because it's what I'm most used to).  There's nothing to tell us what mantras are.    There's nothing that says, "Don't worry about this part for now," or, "MMO use only."  

How is a player, new or old, supposed to know what is required now and what is for the future?  Shouldn't the difference be clearly presented on LORE without the need for digging through the forum for clarification?

I understand it takes time to do things, to get things typed up and entered.  Random piecemeal distribution is confusing, though.  If we were told about mantras, and then what the mantras were, and then which gods had which mantras, and so on piece by piece, that would be okay.  But the pieces don't come like that.  They seem totally random, with no support structure to help place the new information.  We're literally reading the book starting in the middle.  Thanks for the information and the effort, but a lot of it is meaningless without explanation, and therefore a second set of lore.

Otherwise,

I'll followup with a devlog entry introducing mantras in greater detail within a couple days

Thank you.

[Dorganath]

A character does not have to necessarily subscribe 100% to the mantras of a deity.  To take your dishonest Rofireinite example, the character may otherwise align with the other facets of Rofirein's personal mantras.

If you find it confusing for the moment, I would recommend simply ignoring it until more clarity is gotten.  

You might then ask "so why was it included at all?" and the simple answer there is that Ed wanted to get all of the deity information put up for the community to have, and there was a strong desire to not have anyone do things a second time.  

When mantras are more explained, it will be each devout player's choice as to whether or not one "follows" the mantras as listed (and their associated meanings).  We're not going to be requiring any sort of statement or dedication to them in NWN.  They are part of a system for the MMO only and they are posted for informational/reference purposes only at this time.

[EdTheKet]

Of course, there's never a right way for this.
Don't release information: players state they have to work with a book that's several years old.
Release information: it's incomplete, not entirely NWN specific, things like that.

So either way, people are dissatisfied and will continue to be so even when all 1500+ pages of text that I have are on LORE.

So, we'll plod along and release information. Yes this is piece by piece, instead of all at once. That's a choice we made and which I continue to support.

There will be people who will not like this, but I'd like to think that generally speaking it is appreciated that things are getting up there.

[EdTheKet]

I thought the actual mantra pairs were here:
LORE: Deities of Layonara

but it ends at "There are 18 pairs" which is rather abrupt.

I'll remedy that soon, because there was supposed to be more.

[orth]

I'm concerned about the way the tone seems to be in this thread.  Maybe I'm reading too much into it but why couldn't we just be asked:

"Hey guys you're referring to 'Mantras' in these new pages but there doesn't seem to be much indication to what they are on LORE or if they're a factor for NWN, could someone explain? And if its not related to NWN maybe indicate that somehow?"

Instead it seems to be a particular point of frustration that eludes to a larger contention with the matter in which we're releasing the lore.  You guys can help us help the existing and new community by pointing these things out but it doesn't need to be a 'bang your head against the wall' frustration.  We try our best to communicate when asked and sometimes we don't realize what information is not out there.  The pieces aren't necessarily coming out with core definitions missing because it's the way we decided to do it but more like we just never realized we're missing vital information to include to go along with such.

Maybe we can simply change the "Mantras:" label in the new deity pages to be a link to another LORE page that defines the Mantra system and explains how it is not in use in NWN.

I'm kinda shocked we've gotten through 10 deities and no one has piped up yet asking just what the heck these mantras are?

[Gulnyr]

If you find it confusing for the moment, I would recommend simply ignoring it until more clarity is gotten.

Again, how is a player, new or old, supposed to know what is required?  If LORE is supposed to be our resource, how does a player know what to ignore?  It's nice that you've explained it some here, but this thread is going to get lost.  LORE should have those sorts of explanations.  

Of course, there's never a right way for this.
Don't release information: players state they have to work with a book that's several years old.
Release information: it's incomplete, not entirely NWN specific, things like that.

I didn't make either of those complaints.  Using the older information would be acceptable as long as it were consistently applied and maintained.  Since things have been and are being changed, it's understandable that things will be incomplete for a while.  Stuff that's not NWN-specific is not a problem as long as we know what it is, or at least are told that certain parts are currently irrelevant.  Preferably on LORE.  It can be included in the NWN/D&D Alignments, Domains, and Notes sections, as a note.

So, we'll plod along and release information. Yes this is piece by piece, instead of all at once. That's a choice we made and which I continue to support.

Piece by piece is fine.  Look at what I wrote:

If we were told about mantras, and then what the mantras were, and then which gods had which mantras, and so on piece by piece, that would be okay.

Please stop making a strawman of my concerns.  

I love Layonara. If you're getting defensive because I'm expressing a concern, you're going to kill yourself when real critics start looking.  I'm not trying to be irritating.  I really appreciate that you're trying to put out information. I'm just asking that you don't jump around so much.  I know that you know what you're talking about, but we might not.  We haven't seen everything you've got.  You're starting with algebra and we don't know addition.  Basics first, please.   Start with the skeleton, then add the succulent flesh in all its lorey glory.

I know a way to keep you from having to maintain two sets of lore, by the way.  You (as you already are, really) focus on the MMO and make sure all of that is the best it can be.  Meanwhile, a NWN Loremaster is appointed who knows the lore as it stands at that arbitrary decoupling instant, and/or is ready to make things up and stand by them for the sake of a consistent NWN experience.  Then NWN can stay with what works for NWN, and the MMO lore can move ahead as it needs to, unburdened by NWN limitations and the need to filter it out to the players.  If events need to be transferred over from NWN to MMO for some reason (e.g. it becomes canon history), everyone will just have to understand that some things could get lost in the translation (and we know this already happens with retcons).  If things go the other way, just drop all the technical stuff from the MMO and leave the fluff.  If it doesn't fit right (like Evil Goranites), it doesn't make it to NWN lore. This also means that we players have only one set of lore to deal with, too, so it's win-win.  The workload problem is only there because you're trying to do everything yourself.  I do understand this could make a bit of a mess of LORE though, yeah.

[Dorganath]

Yeah, I guess I'm saying mantras don't matter for NWN. Sure, you can observe them, but is it necessary?  Not at all.

We certainly didn't intend to cause any confusion, and it seems the intensity (at least through text) of the questions and arguments presented here indicate a far deeper concern than we anticipated. In truth, no contention was anticipated. It certainly was not the intent to do any of these things, nor do I think it was expected that anyone would take issue with them to this degree.

So again, there's nothing about mantras that need to concern anyone at this point.  They're not going to be required for character submissions, to RP or for defining what makes a "proper" follower of any given deity.

Hopefully, when the explanation orth offered is posted, it will make more sense, but even then, it is nothing that we need to worry about in NWN.

Until then, I recommend just waiting for the description.

[Shiokara]

If it helps, I think the far deeper concern you mentioned is a lasting debate I've seen elsewhere on the forums. Namely, "Should there be two separate sets of lore and when the MMO comes out, we'll just switch? Or should the old set just be updated in anticipation of the MMO?" I seem to recall similar threads related to the world itself and the people and events in it.

Of course, you could just circumvent the whole deal by using the cosmology to say the world in the MMO is a similar, but different, world on the thread and has a completely different make up and history than the current world we play on (even if they do share some similarities by pure circumstance.

[EdTheKet]

LORE: Deities of Layonara has been updated to reflect what should have come after "There are 18 pairs."
This should provide further insight.

I didn't make either of those complaints.

I know you didn't make either of those and I didn't mean to imply that. However I can see how I could imply that, so apologies.
There are however, people out there that do. It's either PMed or IRCed to me directly or indirectly.

Please stop making a strawman of my concerns.

I'm not entirely familiar with this expression but I can guess what it means.
I do have to agree with orth's comment though, they've been there for a good while so if it was not explained properly (which it was as I seemed to have missed entering part of the text on the Deity page in LORE) it could've come up before. That's why I've got the "Ask the Loremaster" threads after all. If there are any other glaring holes or missing basics, please let me know, it may just be an oversight.


As for the two "sets of lore". There is only one world of Layonara and one "set of lore". I'll explain further below.

We started to put everything from the upcoming books on LORE now, because the handbook and other information on LORE was terribly out of date with current events in game. Our plan was to have the books released two years ago already, but due to various reasons which I will not go in to, this got delayed.
We then decided to release the book info on LORE because the situation was becoming untenable. GMs did have access to the updated texts, however players did not and had to deal with the old text. We were no longer able to use significant parts of the old text because the original writers had refused to sign over their writings for us to use.
Keeping this text for use was therefore not an option and it had to be replaced. This affected many deities and is probably the cause of most of the pain .

As for the workload and the comment that I am trying to do it all myself. That's not true, there's plenty of people helping out, but if people would imagine for a moment what a sheer amount of work creating an MMO is with people who do it voluntarily and in their spare time. There are many tasks to juggle. Tasks that help getting the game out of the door are prioritized so people help out where they can with getting things on LORE, but there are many other things to do.

To conclude, there are no "two separate sets of lore". Many a deity was rewritten for reasons explained above. Those that were not rewritten were expanded upon so we decided to put everything up, and not just the ones that we had to replace because of copyright issues.

Realm, world, NPC wise nothing has been retconned or changed because of rewrites so I am thinking there is no pain there. Except for the fact that most of it is still old and outdated, but that is being worked on.

[orth]

Devlog Entry on Mantras

Not sure if a LORE person wants to look into doing what I suggested? Adding the text from this devlog to a Mantras page on LORE and indicating how it is not critical for NWN.  Also making the "Mantras:" label on each deity's page to then point to such a page.

[EdTheKet]

Devlog Entry on Mantras

Not sure if a LORE person wants to look into doing what I suggested? Adding the text from this devlog to a Mantras page on LORE and indicating how it is not critical for NWN.  Also making the "Mantras:" label on each deity's page to then point to such a page.

Thanks. I will discuss it further on the LORE team pages.

[Gulnyr]

I know you didn't make either of those and I didn't mean to imply that. However I can see how I could imply that, so apologies.

I'm not entirely familiar with this expression [strawman] but I can guess what it means.

It's cool.  It's just frustrating and insulting that you're responding to something other than the current posts.  I'm not some English major hiding meaning behind the words of a story; I'm doing my best to say exactly what I mean.  Be courteous to posters.  Don't lump anyone who posts a difference of opinion, concern, or criticism into the same bulk category of complainers and give a stock "woe is me" response.

As for the workload and the comment that I am trying to do it all myself. That's not true, there's plenty of people helping out, but if people would imagine for a moment what a sheer amount of work creating an MMO is with people who do it voluntarily and in their spare time. There are many tasks to juggle. Tasks that help getting the game out of the door are prioritized so people help out where they can with getting things on LORE, but there are many other things to do.

I wasn't very clear on that.  Sorry. I know you aren't doing everything everything.  I only mean that it wouldn't hurt to delegate.  This point is wider than deities and what's on LORE.  Why do you, personally, have to check iffy character submissions, for example?  Can no one else decide that this or that background is okay for NWN, even if it might not fly for the MMO?  Is there really no CA or DM who can do that?  How many NWN-only tasks could you release to someone else (or someones else), fully or partially, to make things easier?  Easier for you and easier for everyone waiting in line for your attention.  Would it really be that bad if NWN strayed a little bit and a couple of the things we do now don't carry over into the MMO?    It's because there is so much to do for the MMO that you shouldn't have to make every little decision for the terminally ill NWN.

The thread's drifting, but I started it.

[EdTheKet]

Why do you, personally, have to check iffy character submissions, for example? Can no one else decide that this or that background is okay for NWN, even if it might not fly for the MMO? Is there really no CA or DM who can do that? How many NWN-only tasks could you release to someone else (or someones else), fully or partially, to make things easier? Easier for you and easier for everyone waiting in line for your attention. Would it really be that bad if NWN strayed a little bit and a couple of the things we do now don't carry over into the MMO? It's because there is so much to do for the MMO that you shouldn't have to make every little decision for the terminally ill NWN.

Ah! Watch this space (well not exactly this particular space) but you know what I mean