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Author Topic: What is the official in-game description for familiars?  (Read 573 times)

Hellblazer

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2009, 05:09:01 pm »
Quote from: SteveMaurer
 
 I also need to point out that mechanically, if you unpossess a familiar who has moved into another map, the familiar instantly transports back to the summoning mage and manifests via a summon. I previously integrated this effect into my RP, but if this isn't the way it works, will instead now have to start using OOC comments to people, saying "you didn't see my familiar just appear - she's really miles away".
 
 what's the command you use to have your familiar emote in party talk?
 
 
Quote from: SteveMaurer
But this raises another question: if you die, is your familiar yanked back with your body, as part of being Dragoncalled? If not, should you wait some particular amount of time before summoning your familiar, to simulate that you just died on a different continent? And how exactly should I explain how my panther was able to book a ticket on a ship? (I will say it's an amusing vision of a mage/panther pair departing the docks, with only a somewhat singed panther, wearing a "my master is an idiot" expression on her face, return to the ship.)
 
 Well the newer generation of adventurers are no longer dragon called, and I would sumised that they would find a way back to you, like that dog that hitched on board of ships to go half way around the world to find his master.

EdTheKet

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2009, 05:49:29 pm »
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I'm happy about this, but do feel compelled to point out that it is perilously close to telepathy. Mechanically, I can have a familiar "speak" through the Party talk, RPing it as my mage using her own voice to say what she sees with her familiar's eyes to inform the rest of the party. But if you explicitly say this isn't legal, I won't do it.

I believe Dorg just said that.

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I also need to point out that mechanically, if you unpossess a familiar who has moved into another map, the familiar instantly transports back to the summoning mage and manifests via a summon. I previously integrated this effect into my RP, but if this isn't the way it works, will instead now have to start using OOC comments to people, saying "you didn't see my familiar just appear - she's really miles away".
She would be miles away, and if you want to be perfectly consistent, perhaps even days away in time as the next area may be 100 miles away. Then your party would have to wait for days before the familiar arrives at the location, and days until it gets back.
There is only so much you can do to instill realism here until you run into the wall of an online persistant world not being the real world.

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Familiars have in-game GM fiat to never really die, no matter what kind of trouble they get into.

Right, again, only so much we can (or wish to!) do.


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Even if you altered the game engine so that familiars were unsummoned while you rested, you would still be able to summon them back at full health every time you rested, regardless of any HP loss or status affliction they had.
I can't say I am particularly concerned with that. That's what NWN does and we have no inclination to change that at this point in time.

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However, since you have decided that familiars fully "real" (in my own campaign, they're not), you need to come up with an actual in-game explanation for why your Imp, who is fully intelligent and speaks Common and Infernal, can't teach it to their master. Same thing, potentially, for Pixies and their languages. I need your in-game explanation so I don't screw up the RP of it.

The reason is that we do not want player characters to get an additional language in an easy way, you have to work for it. Just saying that it was taught by a familiar is too easy, we also don't allow language learning from NPCs (only in rare, well-supported cases like CDQs). We want players to learn languages from other players to promote interaction. And yes, this is totally an OOC rule without any in-game basis.
People can RP it like their particular familiar not being willing to teach it.
 

SteveMaurer

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2009, 06:35:06 pm »
Quote from: Hellblazer
what's the command you use to have your familiar emote in party talk?

I possess the familiar, move as the familiar to the location being scouted, set the "Party Mode" for speech, and then speak as the familiar.   This shows up on the party screen as the familiar speaking.  I use "*the words come out of my PCs mouth*" as part of the emote.

Because of Ed's ruling, I won't be doing this any more though.  Instead, I'll explicitly unpossess the familiar before telling people what I saw.   I will also not send my familiar to different maps when in a party, if those maps are supposed to be distant.  ( I can still scout within a building or cave system though. )
 

 
Quote from: Hellblazer
Well the newer generation of adventurers are no longer dragon called, and I would sumised that they would find a way back to you, like that dog that hitched on board of ships to go half way around the world to find his master.

So if they are not called "dragon called", what are people who are bound to bindstones called?   Understand, this is no small element of the game world.  Someone who is bound to a bindstone has about 100 lives (depending on their level).   Someone who is not has 1.

You just can't ignore that.   If being bound to a bindstone is something that just anyone could do, it would affect entire societies.   So I've been assuming that the binding is some mysterious process that no one really understands, and is rare.   Tell me if it is otherwise.
 

Link092

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2009, 06:35:52 pm »
Quote from: SteveMaurer
Whether, if your familiar is not a "true" example of its species, a mage could create their own "species" of familiar is undetermined.


I RP Ido's Pseudodragon as coming from the Dragon Isles (where from my understanding, there is a plethora of creatures there)

While He remains a pseudodragon -period- with no "special" difference, I do label him as "some sub-species of lizard"* for those around. I don't think every PC could immediately say "hey! it's a pseudodragon!". and even then, I don't portray Ido as knowing what "sub-species" of pseudodragon he might be because really, Ido would have no clue... (my basis for that was a bit of Darwinism.....)




* which is an understatement....
 

Dorganath

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2009, 06:51:46 pm »
Quote from: SteveMaurer
So if they are not called "dragon called", what are people who are bound to bindstones called?   Understand, this is no small element of the game world.  Someone who is bound to a bindstone has about 100 lives (depending on their level).   Someone who is not has 1.

You just can't ignore that.   If being bound to a bindstone is something that just anyone could do, it would affect entire societies.   So I've been assuming that the binding is some mysterious process that no one really understands, and is rare.   Tell me if it is otherwise.

They don't have an "official" title.  As a group, they're adventurers.  It's not their status that gives them "100 lives" as you say, but rather their collective use of the Bindstones.

You may ask: Why doesn't everyone use them?

This has been covered before.  The official lore behind it is that there's a chance that when a person uses the bindstones, they will simply die.  Most people don't take that risk.  Those who do must possess something special about them that permits them to survive the process, but what that "something" may be is not known by anyone.  As a mechanical convenience, it is assumed that all PC adventurers possess that "special something".  PC adventurers make up a very small fraction of the entire population of the world (which numbers in the millions).  There's also some members of the NPC population who have bound themselves to the bindstones.

But as I said, this has been covered elsewhere and it strays off the topic of familiars.

I hope all your questions have been answered.
 

jrizz

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2009, 06:59:48 pm »
Good post for this:

http://forums.layonara.com/nwn-ideas-suggestions-requests/224472-replacment-story-newly-arrived-since-ozlo-demise.html

Quote from: SteveMaurer

So if they are not called "dragon called", what are people who are bound to bindstones called?   Understand, this is no small element of the game world.  Someone who is bound to a bindstone has about 100 lives (depending on their level).   Someone who is not has 1.

You just can't ignore that.   If being bound to a bindstone is something that just anyone could do, it would affect entire societies.   So I've been assuming that the binding is some mysterious process that no one really understands, and is rare.   Tell me if it is otherwise.
 

SteveMaurer

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2009, 07:14:41 pm »
OK, back on the topic of familiars, to finally flesh all the answers out.

If a mage has a familiar that has a special ability, such as a pixie being able to Disarm Traps, is it officially acceptable for them to "possess" the Pixie to accomplish that?    Under one interpretation, that would not be acceptable, because it is the Mage, not the Pixie, who is controlling - and the mage doesn't have the Disarm skill.     Under another interpretation, you can assume that the Mage is "asking" the pixie to disarm the trap, and then playing the pixie doing it.   (This came up with another Mage in Storans using their pixie to disarm a trap.)

Which interpretation is correct?

Similarly, even though a Mage could not speak Infernal, and the Imp refuses to teach it for some devilish/alien reason to their master,  is it acceptable for the mage to ask their Imp to translate?    Or is that forbidden too?

(And the same thing could be conceivably done will Animal emote-language.)
 

Dorganath

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2009, 07:25:29 pm »
Quote from: SteveMaurer
OK, back on the topic of familiars, to finally flesh all the answers out.

If a mage has a familiar that has a special ability, such as a pixie being able to Disarm Traps, is it officially acceptable for them to "possess" the Pixie to accomplish that?    Under one interpretation, that would not be acceptable, because it is the Mage, not the Pixie, who is controlling - and the mage doesn't have the Disarm skill.     Under another interpretation, you can assume that the Mage is "asking" the pixie to disarm the trap, and then playing the pixie doing it.   (This came up with another Mage in Storans using their pixie to disarm a trap.)

Which interpretation is correct?

Personally, I find the pixie "pocket rogue" a rather cheap thing, but we're also not saying you can't.  Unfortunately, there are things that would be possible in a GM-adjudicated, table-top adventure that don't otherwise translate into an online game.  

So in the pixie lock-picker case, the RP of it is that it's the pixie doing it, not the mage.  But the only way for the pixie to do it on-command is to mechanically possess and use the familiar's special ability.

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Similarly, even though a Mage could not speak Infernal, and the Imp refuses to teach it for some devilish/alien reason to their master,  is it acceptable for the mage to ask their Imp to translate?    Or is that forbidden too?

(And the same thing could be conceivably done will Animal emote-language.)

Since we don't have a lot of Infernal-speaking NPCs roaming around, this would be an instance where there's a GM in control of the situation, and as with all such cases, it would be up to the GM as to whether or not the Imp would translate...or translate properly...or whatever.

I'm not sure which Common-speaking familiars would be able to translate Animal though.  They aren't all animals, and those that are can't speak Common.

But again, it's GM's discretion.
 

Hellblazer

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2009, 07:35:34 pm »
Quote from: SteveMaurer
I possess the familiar, move as the familiar to the location being scouted, set the "Party Mode" for speech, and then speak as the familiar. This shows up on the party screen as the familiar speaking. I use "*the words come out of my PCs mouth*" as part of the emote.
 
 Because of Ed's ruling, I won't be doing this any more though. Instead, I'll explicitly unpossess the familiar before telling people what I saw. I will also not send my familiar to different maps when in a party, if those maps are supposed to be distant. ( I can still scout within a building or cave system though. )
 
 it's how ever useful for the emotes to be seen in party for gms though.

SteveMaurer

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2009, 08:14:54 pm »
Thank you all for taking the time to clarify this.
:)

I'm done now.
8)
 

Link092

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2009, 09:15:43 pm »
so no objection to how I RP Oeri? (Ido's familiar?)
 

Dorganath

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2009, 09:22:53 pm »
What your character believes is one thing.  What you as a player believe and introduce into the RP, however, should keep to the above. :)
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2009, 01:43:32 am »
Don't you mean "done for now," Steve? Because we both know you'll have more questions (and please, don't stop. I'm getting a lot more info to put on LORE thanks to you.).
 

SteveMaurer

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2009, 05:42:22 pm »
Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
Don't you mean "done for now," Steve? Because we both know you'll have more questions (and please, don't stop. I'm getting a lot more info to put on LORE thanks to you.).

Yeah, probably.  It's fun for once being the person asking the questions, instead of having to come up with all the answers.   :p


Quote from: Dorganath
Personally, I find the pixie "pocket rogue" a rather cheap thing, but we're also not saying you can't. Unfortunately, there are things that would be possible in a GM-adjudicated, table-top adventure that don't otherwise translate into an online game.
 
 So in the pixie lock-picker case, the RP of it is that it's the pixie doing it, not the mage. But the only way for the pixie to do it on-command is to mechanically possess and use the familiar's special ability.

The problem in the pixie case isn't the possession mechanics, it's that Pixies just flat out shouldn't be rogues.  Or if they are, there needs to be an in-game an explanation for why.  (I have this vision of a seedy looking tinkerbell in a gangster tux, smoking a cigarette, saying, "I heard you'se guys got a job to do in Vehl; som'thin needs to be cracked.  I'm the best second-story man and peterman  around.   Learned delecate machinery at my mudder's knee.  And if that don' work, I always gots explosives.")

Pixies should be (low CON) rangers: stealth, pass without trace (they fly -duh), calming animals, maybe even a low level spell or two.   But if it's enforced by the game engine, there's not much you can do.
 

Dorganath

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2009, 06:11:58 pm »
Pixies are rogues because Bioware made them rogues.  Given our preferences, we'd rather remap all (or most) of the familiars, but that's 40 copies of each available creature...so we stick with what we have. :)
 

Carillon

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2009, 08:05:05 pm »
If it helps you rationalize it, I've always imagined those tiny hands and fingers to be particularly good for delicate work requiring a high dexterity. Maybe they can reach right inside the lock and poke at the tumblers? Maybe those tiny fingers can find just the right way to unhook the trap, since they can get so close to it?
 

Hellblazer

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2009, 09:55:26 pm »
It's also part of the fact that pixies are mostly about trickery. Which in term makes the strive to learn everything that goes with that. Pick pocketing, lock picking, sneaking, invisibility, you name it. Also the one found in nature, will work on confusing you with their tricks.

Link092

Re: What is the official in-game description for familiars?
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2009, 09:56:23 pm »
Quote from: Carillon
If it helps you rationalize it, I've always imagined those tiny hands and fingers to be particularly good for delicate work requiring a high dexterity. Maybe they can reach right inside the lock and poke at the tumblers? Maybe those tiny fingers can find just the right way to unhook the trap, since they can get so close to it?


maybe they are rogues?

maybe they're tricksters?

maybe they like poking around in things they shouldn't be messing with? (magical trap goes "BOOM!")

maybe they just have that special magic touch that works like the spell knock?

there are plenty of RP reasons that could justify the NWN mechanics. :) it just takes a bit to think them all out.