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Author Topic: Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rogue?  (Read 90 times)

SteveMaurer

Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rogue?
« on: February 23, 2009, 07:33:12 pm »
I was looking though the various CNRs and noticed that poison requires weapon proficiency simple or weapon proficiency rogue.   This seems odd to me because, among other things, it would mean that many Dark Elves - specifically Dark Elf Wizards (who make up the majority of the male population of Dark Elves) - would normally be unable to brew poisons.  

Does that seem right to you?   It doesn't to me.

Since the CNR description seems to point in the direction of using projectile weapons, might that be a better restriction instead?   Or if that is impossible, perhaps add weapon proficiency wizard and/or weapon proficiency elf?

I fully admit to some self-interest in this, because I would like to take CNR poison for my TN PC wizardress without taking a feat in weapon proficiency simple, which isn't in character for her.
 

Lord Dark

Re: Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rog
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2009, 07:52:16 pm »
I think the requirements are needed to wield the poison tool.
 

ycleption

Re: Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rog
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2009, 08:03:49 pm »
Mechanically, the poison extractor tool is based on the mace, so you have to be able to wield a mace.

Personally, I don't think there's any real RP reason why that should be the case; If you do a search, you can find all sorts of arguments why it should be opened up to group x, or why it should stay the way it is, and I think at this point its not going to change.
 

ShiffDrgnhrt

Re: Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rog
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2009, 08:10:35 pm »
It's just a stupid limitation of the NWN engine, and the only way it could be fixed is if each tool was copied into another base weapon to account for every class...  which would take up module space since there is a limit on the number of items...  so do you want some cool new secret item that's really special, or a new pick axe?

I'll take the cool stuff...
 

SteveMaurer

Re: Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rog
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2009, 09:50:49 pm »
Oh brother.  I see now.

Not understanding how the CNR system works, I went ahead and bought a poison extractor.  I didn't realize I had to wield the thing.

I suppose putting the "poison extraction" attribute on a dagger is impossible?   I've never really looked at the NwN code base.  (I do enough coding in the daytime anyway.)
 

orth

Re: Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rog
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2009, 10:07:17 pm »
There is a possible way to make the poison extractor another wieldable weapon type yes, I believe we do it with other tools.

The thing is, poisoning is really inadequate, it's a bad system that never got love and has always had to be forsaken for other things.  Maybe not "had to" but it was for whatever reason.  Fixing the extractor to help you then work with it will only really have you coming back with the concerns that our community members have risen before about the system's other problems.

It is my best recommendation to avoid the skills usage and simply RP your usage of poison applications.  They really are seldom very beneficial anyway for the time and effort required.

I would prefer to just eliminate it altogether but that is work not deemed as critical either.
 

Nehetsrev

Re: Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rog
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2009, 07:24:41 am »
Well....  One point in favor of learning poison making, even though poisons don't last all that long enough on weapons to be very useful, they can still be used in making poison trap kits, which is great if your character is the sort to plan ahead and use traps to weaken foes before facing them directly.

:D
 

SteveMaurer

Re: Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rog
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2009, 11:58:35 am »
Quote from: orth
The thing is, poisoning is really inadequate, it's a bad system that never got love and has always had to be forsaken for other things.  Maybe not "had to" but it was for whatever reason.  Fixing the extractor to help you then work with it will only really have you coming back with the concerns that our community members have risen before about the system's other problems.

It is my best recommendation to avoid the skills usage and simply RP your usage of poison applications.  They really are seldom very beneficial anyway for the time and effort required.

I would prefer to just eliminate it altogether but that is work not deemed as critical either.


Well, not speaking as a player, but rather speaking as a tabletop game designer and principal software engineer (who has taken a few peeks at some of the various mod code), it seems like the poison system would be pretty easy to fix.   What you really need is for poisons to have an innate Challenge Rating based off the skill of the crafter.    Poisons would continue to damage their specified characteristic, until either A] Death, or B] It is overcome by either someone with a really high healing skill, or (for healing spells) the priests' level.  For example, a CON poison dart would reduce CON by 2 immediately, then by another 2 in an hour, etc, until death or healing.  (Or maybe, when CON reaches zero, the victim goes into a coma, but doesn't die until CON becomes negative what it was.)

Useful in straight up combat?  No.  But useful for assassination?  Of course!  In fact, it would make them terrifying in ways that straight up magic just is not.

This is important, because if you make poisons just another straight up combat weapon, there is no reason for their use to be considered "evil", other than unsupported custom.   With poisons offering slow wasting away and then death, you get the proper effects.


Of course, I'm not set up to work on any code right now, and I'm pretty new to this site anyway, so it would be something for you to discuss.  (I'd also have to recuse my character from using the system to avoid conflict of interest.)   But it would bring real role-playing possibilities to poisons.
 

ycleption

Re: Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rog
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2009, 12:16:20 pm »
Keep in mind that you can already do that with poisons - just get some DM involvement. Honestly, there isn't much use for that kind of poison outside of when you would need DM involvement in any case. It might be useful in PvP, which is itself pretty unusual in this game, but I think the real RP possibilities are there, regardless of the mechanical limitations of the craft.
 

Stug3

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Re: Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rog
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2009, 01:48:03 pm »
Poison is a pain and pretty usless except for RP. So unless you want to spend time doing something you can't really sell, trade or even use effectively then don't even try...take it from me...well Volga.;)
 

Link092

Re: Why does poison CNR require weapon proficiency simple or rog
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2009, 04:33:57 pm »
you know, I think a good way to make use of the poison skill is for monetary purposes. a special merchant NPC could be made that specifically buys poisons from the player for the "black market" which takes them in at a higher price than simply selling them to the pawn. I would say keep lower end poisons at getting only a few true a vial, because the exploit of the system could be possible for lower levels, but once one starts pumping out queen bebelith poison, you could hunt down this NPC merchant to sell the items to for some true. The NPC could have a "seven day" set up, where he is in certain areas on certain days, or even months, making him hard to find. (he is a black marketeer, you know)

It seems a bit much, but I feel that someone who spends time making poisons and using them should hold priority over someone who just wants to use it, but has no formal training in poison craft. (for one, where would they get the poison? it be pretty durn expensive for a decent and -effective- poison, seeing that some of those spiders can lay out a whooping. also, some one who actually makes and understands poisons would definately know how to apply it...)

but that's just me. maybe an Idea for the MMO?