Wizard/Sorcerer

[drakogear]

This may have been asked some time ago and there are possibly some already in game but was wandering... despite them being essentially the same class would multiclassing both Wizard and Sorcerer together be possible?

Thinking for instance, he starts life learning the ways of the al'noth as a wizard. With scroll and wands and such only to later have his innate ability awaken and become a sorcerer and there after studying the al'noth through both wizardry and sorcery.

[merlin34baseball]

I don`t see why it`s not possible (though I am no GM or Char approver). It`s an interesting theory. But my question would be why?
 
 I wonder about how spells would be divided... would you only get say Wizard 10th level spells and Soc 10th level spells at 20th level? To me that seems a hanicap power wise...
 
 Or would the spell books combine?
 
 But it could be a great Char RP wise, BUT... its late at night and I could be totally missing something here...

[drakogear]

Well, knowing the game runs off NWN mechanics (currently) the wizard and sorcerer spell books wont really mix together. there there own separate spell sets and thus at level 20 with a balanced leveling (10/10) neither the wizard or sorcerer spell book well reach spell level 9 however there may be double the casting of the low level spells.

Haven't really decided how I'm going to work the leveling out yet though. Possibly focus more on one then the other and try getting all the auto meta magics for him. Still, Silent, quickened and eschew components. of course those are only obtainable after level 20 and roughly with a 9th level spell casting. Eschew components is a new skill added so not sure if it falls under the epic meta magic skills. (skills after level 20)

[Mormoop]

Think about it though.. You'll have a character who is pretty ineffective, really.

You can cast double the amount of low level spells, yes, but their durations will be half as long as they would have been so you'll generally have to cast more often.

Plus damage will be halved for damage spells, summons will be too weak to help much at the level you'll be at, etc. And if you're boosting both int and cha your DCs and bonus spells will suffer as well. A caster really needs to focus on one stat, especially if they're casting any spell that will ever require a saving throw.

I'd say it's a nice thought, but you won't be doing yourself any favors if it's a character you really want to spend a lot of time with. Your spells will be woefully ineffective at the levels where you really need them.

Finally if you think you'll be getting tons more spells by doubling up.. Do the math. At level 10 a sorcerer gets a total of 26 spells castable per day (not including cantrips, not including bonus spells for Charisma.) A level 20 gets 54 total castable per day. They're all much more effective too, even the lowest level ones, and of course you'll have access to the high level spells you'll sorely need at the level you're at just to survive. So by doing this you'll have LESS spells than sticking to one class or the other.

If you're looking to make an intentionally weak and dare I say almost useless character for role playing sake of course, have fun with it. Just know what you're getting into. If it's casting lower level spells more often that you're after, I'd say get all the metamagics instead as they open up more slots where you can cast the same spells at different levels.

[Filatus]

I don't think multiclassing a sorceror and wizard adds much to your rp on Layo, since that distinction has been slowly phased out for the MMO. Unless I'm wrong and someone please corrects me. As we're still making use of the NWN classes, the only real distinction at this point is that between spellpraying and arcane magic.

[Dorganath]

As has been said, having those two classes won't really complement each other, and the result will likely be weaker than you'd hope. But sure, it's possible and the "awakening" concept is interesting, though unfortunately I don't think they'll mesh well.  This isn't the first time it's come up either, though I don't think anyone has attempted the combination yet for the reasons mentioned above.

Regarding the MMO point that's been brought up, it's correct that there aren't any "Wizards" or "Sorcerers" in the MMO, with the generic term of "spellweaver" being used for arcane casters as a (somewhat inaccurate but "close enough") blanket statement by the general population.  To be accurate, there's Spellweaving, Darkweaving and Spellcalling on the arcane side of things, Spellpraying for divine magic and Spellgrowing to reflect the more druidic style of magic.  Darkweaving should not be confused with the D&D concept of Necromancy, though Spellcalling does fit nicely into Conjuration.

[darkstorme]

Speaking mechanically, there's also the issue of having two primary spellcasting attributes.  Boosting both CHA and INT to a level appropriate to a 10/10 Wizard/Sorcerer will leave you woefully understrength in pretty much everything else.

[Masterjack]

If you went 15/5 to level 20, then went 17/5 at level 22. You would be able to cast level 9 spells at level 22. I would suggest being an Elf or Gnome for multiclassing exp purposes.

The down side to this is that you will never be able to get Epic spells. Your max spell penetration would be 46 and you max spell DC would be 41. That is if you took Epic spell penetration, Epic spell focus and were level 40. To put this in perspective a level 30 Dark Elf would laugh at you while cutting you to pieces.

In conclusion this character mechanically would best be suited as a Buff monkey and one that can buff a lot of members . The RP aspects of being a Wizard and a Sorcerer would be kind of neat to play. Though you must ask yourself are you willing to play a nerfed spell caster in exchange.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Yeah, this build would be a good buff monkey if extended spell was in use, but outside of that, the class mix would be really hard to pull off in NWN. In PnP it works fine because the caster-levels stack, so even though you don't get access to higher level spells faster, at least your lower level spells and DCs can max out.

[drakogear]

Yeah, I guess your right. Was sorta a random thought anyways.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Yeah, this build would be a good buff monkey if extended spell was in use, but outside of that, the class mix would be really hard to pull off in NWN. In PnP it works fine because the caster-levels stack, so even though you don't get access to higher level spells faster, at least your lower level spells and DCs can max out.

Caster Level doesn't stack - it's your effective casting level for a given casting class.

Prestige Classes that grant "+1 Level of Existing Arcane/Divine Class" spellcasting increase your Caster Level for a given casting class. (And spells known/per day, as applicable, etc. etc.)

There is also the feat "Practiced Spellcaster," which raises your CL for an existing class by up to +4 (though your total Caster Level may not exceed your Character Level).

With all of that said...

Even Wiz/Sorc is a very nifty way to play, in PnP, and really shines at about level 5-14 (so, y'know, perfect for that run of Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil!)... At least with Practiced Spellcaster for both classes. Extreme utility as Wizard, and some staying power as a Sorcerer - yeah, this is nice.

It's even better in Pathfinder, when you find yourself covered up in cantrips.

[miltonyorkcastle]

Caster Level doesn't stack - it's your effective casting level for a given casting class.

Perhaps we did this as a house rule, but I do distinctly recall that we played 3rd ed. and all similar editions with the caster level total being gained from any level in which you had a caster class. So a 5th lvl wizard/4th lvl cleric/4th lvl fighter had a caster level of nine, because he had nine levels in a caster class, regardless of whether its divine or arcane or simply a different class. This makes more sense to me than having it limited by class, effectively making the character have two (or more) sets of caster levels. But anywho, I suppose now we've high-jacked the thread to discuss a PnP element that simply can't be applied to the NWN game engine regardless, heh.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Perhaps we did this as a house rule, but I do distinctly recall that we played 3rd ed. and all similar editions with the caster level total being gained from any level in which you had a caster class. So a 5th lvl wizard/4th lvl cleric/4th lvl fighter had a caster level of nine, because he had nine levels in a caster class, regardless of whether its divine or arcane or simply a different class. This makes more sense to me than having it limited by class, effectively making the character have two (or more) sets of caster levels. But anywho, I suppose now we've high-jacked the thread to discuss a PnP element that simply can't be applied to the NWN game engine regardless, heh.

That's definitely a houserule. Casters are already quite powerful as multiclass additions - to say nothing of how powerful they are single-classed.

Caster Level represents how talented you are at that specific kind of casting, so not even your Sorcerer and Wizard levels (or Sorcerer and Favored Soul, etc. etc.) stack.

This is the reason the Practiced Spellcaster feat exists... And I've seen implementation on NWN before.

[Ravemore]

This is the reason the Practiced Spellcaster feat exists... And I've seen implementation on NWN before.

*Drools*

[drakogear]

Hm, so I'm guessing this Practiced Spell caster feat is only good for those whos caster level is atleast 4 levels lower then there overall character level? Can it be taken more than once if they have multiple caster classes or does it apply to all?

Additionally is there or would there be possible to have a feat or some such that would raise the level of a familiar/companion? The worst thing I've always found about multi classing a Wizard, sorcerer, ranger or druid was the fact the familiar/companion only leveled when the caster class leveled making the familiar/companion quite ineffective against stronger opponents.

Random Scenario: YAY! level 20! (10 wizard/10 SpellSword) Oh no, that monster took out my familiar in one hit... Why didn't he level up with me!!!

[miltonyorkcastle]

Eh, familiar's aren't really meant as combat additions in Layo anyway. That's what spell summons are for. Familiars are there for RP purposes, like spying, scouting, helping with a RPd spell during a quest, relaying messages, acting as a local alert system, etc, etc. This being the case, having two familiars would actually be very beneficial in terms of RP versatility.

[gilshem ironstone]

Just so you are clear, Practiced Spellcaster is not available as a feat in NWN.

[drakogear]

Eh, familiar's aren't really meant as combat additions in Layo anyway. That's what spell summons are for. Familiars are there for RP purposes, like spying, scouting, helping with a RPd spell during a quest, relaying messages, acting as a local alert system, etc, etc. This being the case, having two familiars would actually be very beneficial in terms of RP versatility.

Well then mechanically and possible roll wise (not sure how an npc character could make rolls) there lower levels would also mean lower ability scores. So how can they really do anything when there about 10 to 20 levels lower than any creature in the area?

Just so you are clear, Practiced Spellcaster is not available as a feat in NWN.

I know its not a feat from NWN. I know about ever NWN feat... play the original+expansions campaign a lot. So I'm assuming its one of the few (or many?) new feats added for layo.

[Dorganath]

So I'm assuming its one of the few (or many?) new feats added for layo.

No, it's not.

[drakogear]

Awwww.

Oh well then.