a proposal for new musical instruments

[Dorganath]

Good luck...lots of cobwebs and miscellaneous knick-knacks in the back of his mind these days.  

[Leanthar]

hehe. true true

[Acacea]

I'm not purchasing an instrument to enhance my abilities from someone who cannot play.

I'm of two minds in this--one, that you don't need to be a bard to have musical talent. If you've got musical talent as well as crafting talent, then surely there is no reason why you could not craft one. That doesn't mean everyone has it though, and if you're not going by the bard class, what do you go by? You could say charisma... but that isn't the same.

Perform seems the obvious answer, rather than doing it by class. You could also open up perform as a class skill for everyone. Why? It's utterly useless to them. Does. Nothing. I hate seeing people forced to make checks for an action anyone is capable of, with a skill only a single class may take. Investing points in it would -only- serve as an RP dump of skill points with no mechanical reward, so if someone wants to represent a talent with some useless points, that's fine with me (and I play a bard). I think most people are so pressed for skills that there would be only a few who really made use of that.

The other half of the mind is pointing out that a bard is no mere musician, and a bard crafted instrument is often more than a carved piece of wood with a good sound. In this case, it IS bard specific, and no matter how nicely someone can whistle, it won't have the magical properties that a bard's would.

So... if we could have some distinction between instruments that required a true bard's skill whose results showed that, and masterwork mundane ones, then that would be good. If we can't have that distinction, then I think I prefer bard only.

[OldBear]

Just wanted to state that it is not a big deal to me either way.  It just seemed like one area where could create without it being a weapon.  Furniture is that way but so far it appears it is much cheaper to buy from the funiture store then create/craft it.  The lens price is much higher then what you can purchase the item for based on the few items I have crafted.  Anyway please don't spend a lot of time on this issue on my behalf. Thanks

[darkstorme]

Stradaveri, by all accounts, was only a passable player, no virtuoso.  Mozart, Beethoven, and Paganini wouldn't know how to build a violin if you put them in a workshop and let them have at it.  I've never seen any reason why the craft was restricted to Class: Bard.  It'd be a combination of DEX, WIS, and CHA, I suspect, especially since Listen is a Wisdom-based skill.

The real skill required by a musical instrument designer would be Appreciate, I think, rather than Perform.  They'd have to hear the subharmonics of strings, hear imperfections in a sound board, sense when the varnish is too thick - none of these require the ability to perform spectacularly, they just require remarkable aural and tactile acuity.  As there's no Appreciate, a combination, perhaps, of Appraise and the above stats might be used in its place.  Or just the base stats.  Regardless, the dominance of the Bard in instrument crafting ought to see its end.  *has contributed his two coppers, dives back into his calc book*

[Dorganath]

Right...that's realistic, but as it currently stands, the crafting system does not support skill checks at this time. So just saying, "Oh, make it depend on listen and this and that" sounds easy, but it's really an extension to the system that may or may not be trivial.
  In approximation of realism, we instead are using the Bard class to roll all those things up into one neat package, which the crafting system does support.
  But again, this isn't about musical instruments....this is about musical instruments which have tangible effects besides just sounding good. In the hands of bards, these things give extra inspiration, extra HPs and whatever else may be dependent upon a Bard's Perform skill.
  Or at least, I think that's the theory.  

[Acacea]

Here there be rambling... (6am so warning, super-long post)[/i]   It was. Essentially, I also see no real reason why a plain instrument can't be made by any class, because one doesn't need to have Class:Bard in order to have any dealings or understandings of music.   However as with any other craft, they shouldn't all BE mundane plain ones that any crafter can toss up, no matter how good their ear is. We can say, "but let's face it, the instruments are not stellar and there's nothing exceptional that should make it limited to bards," except that's kind of what the original post was about--the instruments sucking and needing some spicing up.   The reason I said perform (and yes I know since skills aren't doable that it's moot) is because it's something you have to invest in, and is associated with bardic ability in NWN. Without getting into a long argument about it, I feel appraise and listen are not perfect fits, in the same way that perform was not a perfect fit.  It's already been agreed that you don't need to be a bard to hold an instrument. Poof. Now any class can use one. I even think perform should be opened up for people who want to waste their skills, to represent a technical ability. I agree again that the actual physical crafting of an instrument could technically be done by anyone with the appropriate skills and abilities, and that really the actual creation of it lies more within other crafts...there aren't that many bards even fond of the manual labor involved!   I do not agree, though, that bards shouldn't have an edge or dominance with certain aspects of it, or that the craft as it is now should be opened up if there is no way of making it dependent on something people actually have to invest something in. As if there aren't enough people with fifty thousand crafts or ones where someone is leveled in it within a few days...No thanks. If it's not something you are assumed to be able to do by default, I'm not going to want to give it to you for free. Invest or suck at it. The difference is merely that I'm willing to let anyone try.   The other obvious one is that while nice sounding instruments can be made by anyone, anything with a magical property that isn't specifically from whatever rare ingredient should be hands-off.    But... as far as other ways to do it go...I think instrument crafting could actually be broken without much fuss to fall into the other crafts, except for the skills required. Despite that, I would rather have strictly mundane craftable instruments by whomever capable, and then allow the ability of a bard to take a completed one another few steps further, perhaps with enchantment or infusing. Something that leaves the magical properties of an instrument to the bard and lets any craftsmen make the pretty sounding one, as far I am concerned. (Of course I also think such instruments should be rare, so I'm apparently never happy )  "Oh but other people use the Harmony, maybe a charismatic sorceror could do it!" This is another case where I am again not really happy with it unless it is something you can actually select and be stuck with. If you don't do it that way until there is a perk in doing so, I'm not in favor of assuming everyone does...Not to mention that their talents lie in different areas.  If nothing else, the current craft could stay in place, the current instruments be opened to all, and others added that were bard only. Some kind of compromise. You can keep the perform bonuses and even the spell slots (which are usually detrimental anyway), as those are merely examples of a bard having his abilities enhanced by a well-made but non-magical instrument.  Oldbear: It's not so much a great deal of work on one person's behalf as it is several people who like things to make sense in the world, and will leap all over something that doesn't at the first opportunity, arguing (somewhat) happily until something is reached...not that that means it will be changed--often it is not, but at least we then agree on what we would like to do if we ever got the chance.

[Stranzini]

In the real world, being a good maker of instruments and being a good player of instruments are mutually exclusive.

It takes very different skill sets and very different application all life long of those skill sets.

Fine instrument makers will usually know how to play the instruments they make at a basic level, but they will defer to players to really test and refine them, and when you buy a high end instrument you work together with the maker or a skilled repairman to get it just the way you want it.

This is presumably what bugs oldbear, and it bugged me at the beginning too.

But some things have to be simplified to make a game, and I kind of think we can all just live with the bard rule for instrument crafting so as not to complicate our developers' lives.

There's a whole lot of stuff they could work on that would enhance our game pleasure more - like new instruments, even...

Note that you don't have to be a good bard to be as good as you want to be at instrument crafting, there is no level check as far as I know. As long as you have one level in bard (and server rules say, eventually five as time goes by), after that it's a question of your application to developing the crafting. So, that's not so different from saying the instrument crafter knows about music and knows how to play the instruments he makes, just isnt a virtuoso. But you do have to be serious enough about this craft to define your character around it, and that doesn't seem like a bad thing - I'm not quite sure what Acacea was saying there but I'm thinking maybe that's it?

[lonnarin]

I think there's a harp out there that one can enchant with infusing.  I haven't come across it yet, But I'll look into it.

Farros has been getting into music crafting in a big way, and I totally understand where this is coming from.  It gets kind of annoying when every time you unequip an instrument that you lose your spells for that level, so what I have done meanwhile is modified a violin bow to look like a guitar, that way I can whip it out in town all I like, without suddenly facing the prospect of being out of spells I never even cast.  It's a good tip for if you just want an RP instrument vs a bonus spell one.

Also, enchanting and infusing would be good venues to take instruments to the next level.  It explains why people can pick them up and use special powers; because it's enchanted/infused, thats why.  Some ideas off the top of my head...

Pan Pipes of Beguiling: Casts confusion
Harp of Lullabyes:  Sleep
Chimes of Infiltration: Knock  (and a decent lvl knock too, else it'll never get use on our DCs)
Fiddle of Fury: Blood Frenzy and war cry
Fiddle of Fire: Combust and Fire Arrow
Guitar of El Kabong: has sneak attack or bludgeoning dmg on it so you can fight with it like Honkey Tonk Man
Pipes of the Tempest: Gust of wind and possibly take to air so people can "warp" off cliffs like Link
Lyre of Building:  Summons clay golems
Drums of Panic: fear and bane (though technically its a tamborine)
Tamborine of Annoyance: Blind/Deaf from those hideous hippie campfire songs
Chimes of Silence: yeah... silence
Pipes of the Satyr: High lvl one that does both sleep and confusion, per the satyr of the Silent Watch
6 Strings of Madness: Mind fog and confusion
Harp of the Hells: summons specifically imps and hellhounds


etc etc... you get the picture.  Rather than uses/day it might also be better to make them have charges.  That way we can keep the market pumping for them.  Currently NOBODY seems to be in the market for an instrument... the uncultured heathens!

Ah yes, it'd also be funny to have a magical box which spawns a piano on the battlefield.  We could make it work akin to the Flag Rally script so that party members who get near the bard's ivories feel a little boost.

[Ozy_Llewellyn]

All right, as always I am completely unsure of how to approach this subject. However I have my own small series of suggestions to make.

Bard Items firstly lose the bonus spells per day, because of how the bard class is they are not useful and it looks absolutely asinine to carry around those items for hours. This is just Bioware Mechanics, no ones fault just how the game works. When you de-equip an item that gives bonus spells per day as a sorc or bard you simply lose memorized spells. As the instruments having them isn't really a bug, Forsettii and I having discussed this initially before the Bioware bug was realized, this is more of a re-balancing request with an explanation as to why.

Instruments that unleash spells as though they were, a big nice sounding wand. Now while I like this idea in some levels, I'm somewhat leery about it for two reasons. The first and primary reason would be the simple effect that these items will have a high value, low worth making them loved by the pawnshop. The reason for this is that ultimately you will be selecting spells that work off their base DC's, 10+spell level (not caster level remember). Meaning by the time you acquire these items and are able to use them, they will be very much ineffective against what you would use them against. Alternatively you can lean towards non offence spells or those without DC's, which has it's own problems that throw off balance think 'big potion of might'. Now before this becomes a 35 page lecture on the pros and cons to this, lets just remember 'we have had this discussion before' and no doubt will have it again, and again so this time lets keep it short. We know the pros and cons.

However Layonara does have a new innovation which hasn't had the pro's and con's explained back and forth by parties as suggested by Lonnarin here the unit flag of might style. However instead of something quite so, uhm colorful as the grand piano (most bards can't carry one around after all), perhaps a item power use that causes a special song effect by the player that is enhanced by the persons perform.

In Example (stop reading here if you are already bored of me)
Jimmy The Fighter picks up Oak Pipes of Haunting and has it identified by Fizzle-Pop the Wizard whom tells him if he plays it his enemies may run in fear.
So the next day Jimmy the fighter is fighting orcs, and has to run because he is alone and the orcs are stronger then him. As he runs away digging through his belt for his potion he remembers 'Ahah Fizzle-Pop said if I played this my enemies would run away!' so he plays the instrument.
Jimmy The Fighter freezes in place and is informed by the server status screen that he is playing Pipes of Haunting and cannot move for 30 seconds. All enemies within and entering the radius of effect will be subject to a fear save. DC = 2(oak)+0(Bard levels)+0(Perform/5) total 2 for 60 seconds. And the pipes lose one charge of their two, as they are oak.
Well Jimmy is Lucky all the orcs happen to have 0 will saves and roll 1's.
So they run away and he lives. He notes that he isn't a very good player and also notes that the Pipes of Haunting look somewhat deteriorated and could probably only take another use.

There is one, big, massive, hideous problem with this though. This goes beyond that it is a bit of a headache to script.

Ozymandias Picks up 'Harp of Momento Mori' in some manner which won't be bothered with here. He knows what it does, when he plays it everything he wants dead may die from the soul torturing melody. So he sticks it in his pack 100% confident he will never use it because he hates using charged item which he suspects it has 4 of.
To bad Ozy, the universe just doesn't like you and neither does your creator today, something big, ugly and with true sight is going to splatter you. Enjoy the bindstone! Oh your running? Ok, you run, its got haste... Yep still going to splatter, oh wait your going to play the harp.
Same message as before, your playing and anything that enters the radius will be subjected to a save vs death.
DC = 4(Harp)+31(Bard Levels)+17(80 perform though I don't think it is quite that high I'm not in game to check) total DC 52
Monsters go splat. If you would rather confusion or anything else.

I don't think I need to tell you what is wrong with this.

Lets drop the perform from the equation, 35 which is pretty impressive but it nullifies the point of having skill. So lets drop the bard levels and go straight to perform. Not as good as with bard levels but if the divider was set right, something I leave up to you, IE Perform/4. It could prove very useful to bards/skalds and anyone whom chose to take points in perform if the skill was opened up: Which isn't hard if I remember the 2da's correctly.

In closing:
Bard Spell Loss from Instruments. No one’s fault just how the game works but it can be fixed and if your messing with them anyway why not?

Bard Instrument’s as the new wands. Well there are some hardcode problems with this as well. With some effort though it could work out well, the real trick is making certain the recopies for an item are not to hard or to easy to craft for what your getting. That done right and I can see it being a great addition.

Bard Instruments: Bard’s as portable, PC flags!
 The big issue is, how powerful do you make it? As I pointed out above my first suggestion is obviously broken but could be salvaged if balanced correctly. Unfortunately unless you decide to use set DC’s for each instrument, this will be a real headache to code instead of just boring, not to mention a level 1 bard is as good as a level 30 bard. You could of course always work with the stat buff method. I remember hearing concerns about there being already more then enough methods to boost party member stats which may make this moot.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Why not just have them give a bonus to Bardsong? If that's possible... If not, just bonuses to Perform.

Perhaps bonus bardsong feats on higher-end items... Extra Music, Lingering Song, Curse Song...

[lonnarin]

How about a portable piano of Wiley Coyote smashing?  +10 vs. Talan's avatar!

[laurabunny]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 10/29/2006  3:30 AM

Why not just have them give a bonus to Bardsong? If that's possible... If not, just bonuses to Perform.

Perhaps bonus bardsong feats on higher-end items... Extra Music, Lingering Song, Curse Song...

I would love to have, say, a guitar that doesn't affect spell slots at all, but gives a bonus to Perform.

Also, Lingering Song is a brilliant, wonderful feat that I didn't properly appreciate way back when I first started playing because all I used was Curse Song and it meant I had to wait another five rounds before causing some more sonic damage... AND, I think it would be awesome to maybe have Curse Song as a bonus feat on some kind of war drum, perhaps.  I know those things would sap my fighting spirit, if I had any...