a proposal for new musical instruments

[Stranzini]

I think the musical instrument crafting is not very developed, and it could be fun both to develope the crafting possibilities and increase the variety of instruments available to the bards.

What we have now - as far as Sen can see anyway - is a crafting cycle that is rather repetitive: chimes, tambourine, harp, guitar, violin, change wood, rinse and repeat. The instruments do not seem to have tremendously interesting powers either - they don't look commensurate with the benefits that can be gotten from armor, belts, boots, and weapons especially with the various combinations of enchantments and enhancements available for weapons. I also notice hardly any bards actually using instruments except (a very few) as props...so they obviously don't think they are very useful.

Obviously we don't want the horn of summoning an eighteenth level barbarian fighter on Layonara. But there are surely some moderate items that could be fun to use and not out of line. We can stay low-.magic, even no-magic, and still recognize that music can be its own magic...it has certain powers to stimulate, cheer, persuade, seduce...

And...instruments can be made from many different materials. The crafting will be more stimulating if everything isn't a variation on a different wood plus spider silk.

(Continued)

[Stranzini]

There are different families of instruments, made from different materials, and each of them should have a different sort of effect.

Violins, harps, guitars, mandolins...these are the wood instruments with strings that we make now. They generally make good instruments of accompaniment, and so affecting perform as they do is quite logical. This family is good for now...

Flutes. Some of the most basic and ancient instruments. Not good for accompanying but for playing melodies. Perfect for wandering bards as they are light and can go in a pocket or knapsack. Traditionally we think of flutes as being able to charm, seduce, distract...hmmm, doesn't that suggest some possible benefits? Perhaps the flutes could offer a limited use of charm person (or animal perhaps for the wooden ones and person for the metal ones?) Perhaps sleep for the higher end flutes? Or else some positive benefit for the bard's party due to the better mood he puts them in?

Flutes can be made from many materials. The ocarina is a sort of roundish flute made from clay, originally used by pre-columbian peoples in central america. That would make a great beginning level craftable item, an ocarina. All you need really is clay, and a stick for making the right holes (perhaps there's something in my carpenter's kit that would do the job). Flutes can also be made of wood, so we can have a series of the four wood flutes as well. Wooden flutes tend to be more precise in their tuning, so perhaps their benefits will exceed the ocarina. Wood flutes may be made with or without keys...perhaps ours would be without in order to leave the place open for: metal flutes...silver and platinum are materials that are used in the real world for making high end flutes. Mithril might be good for making flutes too, I suppose. These flutes will have key works - a big pile of gears and springs and wire from the tinker would do the job perfectly I think. Silver, platinum and mithril flutes might have some very nice benefit associated with them as these will not be easy to get at all. An ocarina or wood flute would weigh a pound perhaps - thus a good instrument for a weak person to carry around. The metal flutes perhaps two pounds but they're not so heavy either, they're mostly air with the metal outside...

Trumpets, bugles, cornets and the like. These instruments were often used on the field of battle and are associated with stirring people up, aggression, war, signaling. Hmmm, sounds useful. They could confer some additional melee benefits perhaps on the bard's party members. Perhaps a group defensive bonus coming from the coordination given to the army by the trumpet - seems very logical to me. Or some other sort of morale bonus. A good blast from a sackbut in the ear might have an effect of stunning an enemy...

Copper and bronze are very good materials for this family, silver or gold would actually be very nice as well. And mithril can have any properties we say it has, so mithril is perfectly fine too. Iron would actually probably be less valuable than copper or brass for a musical instrument if we want to be realistic. In their original form, members of this family do not have gears or mechanisms, they are just limited in the number of notes they can play...but for the battlefield this is not a big problem. We could have a few instruments: the trumpet, requires a modest amount of metal, about the same quantity as a medium sized shield should be right. The sackbut (because it has a great name) is an ancestor of the trombone. Because it has a slide it can play more notes, which maybe means that it has more interesting powers, but it will require more metal to make one of these - about three times as much metal as the trumpet would be right. The cornet and the bugle are variations on the trumpet, if we want to have different choices of powers we could have them as well. These instruments are much heavier...trumpets and the like should weigh about as much as a sword, and sackbuts perhaps like one of the bigger two hand weapons.

A chromatic trumpet would be a trumpet with gears and pistons (thank you mr tinker) added to it. This instrument can play all the notes - so he would have more powers I should think.

Hmmm...but given the way the dwarfs talk, perhaps they would use bagpipes instead of trumpets to go to war. Bagpipes are ancient instruments too. The bag would need to come from an animal skin, by way of the tailor (it should be turned into leather I think). A big animal - a badger won't do. Perhaps different animals to get different levels of the instrument - a deer for the basic instrument, a cougar and a lion (since we know they make good bags) for higher levels...and maybe a malar for a super instrument. The bagpipe has a double reed inside and several different tubes - the tubes could be made from a little bit of wood -  one log should have enough (different kinds at different levels I guess). What can I make the reed from? Its not very realistic but I've always wanted to be able to do something with a cockatrice feather, perhaps its unusually stiff for a feather and two of them would work? I cant think of anything else that I've seen around on Layo that looks like a reed...unless we add harvestable reed plants that grow in a swamp or by the lake somewhere. Or I may have overlooked something out there we have already that would be reasonable. Real reeds are made from ten foot tall cane plants that grow particularly around the Mediterannean and other places. A bit of beeswax might be good too, to seal the joints (we could throw this in the flutes too if we want). A bagpipe ought to weigh around five pounds I suppose. And I believe the original purpose of the bagpipe (and it still has that effect on me) was to strike fear into the hearts of the opponents...which is a property we could reasonably propose for it to have I think. Enemies within some range must save for fear. Better levels of bagpipes should have a longer range of effect, stronger save required, or longer duration.

Silool wanted a dulcimer. A dulcimer is a hammered string instrument. This is a large family of traditional instruments, particularly in the middle east - zither, etc. If you are going to hammer on strings, you would not make them out of spider silk, you would use metal strings. Metal wire from the tinker sounds close enough to me. You'd need a lot. 24 strings sounds like a minimum value to me, mounted in a wooden case. Different metals for different levels of the instrument. Copper, bronze, iron (ok steel close enough), platinum, mithril, adamantium all sound useable. This is more of a concert instrument than a battlefield instrument, so its effect should correspond somehow...This beast will be heavy, let's say ten pounds. You really have to want it to carry it around with you.

A virginal is another nice-sounding instrument. Its a keyboard instrument, it would also use the wood case and the metal strings like the dulcimer, just has a key mechanism instead of directly hammering on the strings. Its also somewhat portable - ten pounds let's say. For the keys, the ideal is ivory...I haven't seen any ivory yet but we could maybe have some on some creature somewhere? Otherwise, you could just use wood, it just doesn't have the class that's all.

OK, I think that's enough to start with. Is there enough ideas here to beef up the instruments some? Please?

[Stranzini]

Oh and by the way, in the real world you have to learn to play an instrument.

People can play multiple instruments, at least as good as your average bard is going to do...but they have to learn each of them.

Its not really very different from learning to use your weapon, and it could follow the same logic and game mechanics...there could be an expertise feat for each instrument type, if you don't take it your playing of that instrument will be possible but at a significant handicap. It would be for a type - that is if you can play a silver flute you can also play a platinum flute. But knowing how to play the flute does not help much at all if you try to play a trumpet.

[cso683]

These are all very cool and thought out suggestions, I gather CNR to help Silool in her instrument making, and it, right now, IS pretty repetitive.

I can't make any instruments, but would love to learn to play one, (play a jamming alto sax in real life)!!

Curtis
(Jeff)

[Acacea]

Stranzini - 2/27/2006  4:16 AM  I think the musical instrument crafting is not very developed, and it could be fun both to develope the crafting possibilities and increase the variety of instruments available to the bards.  What we have now - as far as Sen can see anyway - is a crafting cycle that is rather repetitive: chimes, tambourine, harp, guitar, violin, change wood, rinse and repeat. The instruments do not seem to have tremendously interesting powers either - they don't look commensurate with the benefits that can be gotten from armor, belts, boots, and weapons especially with the various combinations of enchantments and enhancements available for weapons. I also notice hardly any bards actually using instruments except (a very few) as props...so they obviously don't think they are very useful.  Obviously we don't want the horn of summoning an eighteenth level barbarian fighter on Layonara. But there are surely some moderate items that could be fun to use and not out of line. We can stay low-.magic, even no-magic, and still recognize that music can be its own magic...it has certain powers to stimulate, cheer, persuade, seduce...  And...instruments can be made from many different materials. The crafting will be more stimulating if everything isn't a variation on a different wood plus spider silk.

 A bard can charm monsters and people alike, strike fear into the hearts of enemies or strengthen those of their allies. These things are not granted by a magic flute or harp. Instruments are tools that aid talents already there, with some more rare and magical exceptions.  I fully agree with the spirit of this post, but think that if you would like to remind people that music is a form of magic, creating a host of magical instruments is going the wrong way with it. In my opinion, it takes away from a bard's actual abilities, giving them to anyone who can hold the instrument... and anyone can hold an instrument, or even be a skilled musician; however, it is the bard who can do all of these things with their performance already. (For example, Acacea can charm people and monsters with or without her flute.)   I would like to see more instruments added for roleplay and variety, certainly (and the ones above are well thought out), but I would rather they not all have some kind of magic power (even cantrips), unless they were a result of, say, both infusing (or enchanting, whatever covers that) and instrument crafting. If they were kept to instrument crafting only, I'd suggest having an advanced bench like the other crafts have...but really I would like to see more added for roleplay reasons than giving them all special abilities.  Waving the Pro-Talent and Anti-Crutch flags simultaneously,  - Acacea

[Leanthar]

@acacea. I tend to agree with what you are saying, the items should just enhance things that one can already perform really well. We need more for RP and such.  Basically I wish we could also add new 'songs/music' etc. that were played out of different instruments but not in a magical sort of way... sort of what you are talking about.

SWG has a really neat bar system where the entertainers (singers, bards etc.) could play on stage and it gave bonuses and healed during that time... but from what I understand the instrument didn't matter overly, it was the talent of the character.

[Crunch]

It would be really cool if when you perform the music coming from your speakers varied with results.  For instance if you sing like a half giant you get Bob Dylan music and if you sing really well you get the 3 tenors or some such like that.  Might be even easier with the instrumental you could vary from the Boston Symphony for good results to the local junior high for bad results.  I don't know how hard it would be to program and the I think the thrill might fade with time, but the first time Tim sings and I hear Bob Dylan, I promise you I will be laughing so hard that tears run down my face.

[Talan Va'lash]

Look for new instrument crafting options in the semi-near future!  There's something thats been in the works for quite a while that with luck will be available in the next update or two or three.

-TV

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Pyyran playing a flute would make me happy inside; let's hear it for flutes!

[Gulnyr]

Stranzini - 2/27/2006  8:05 AM

Hmmm...but given the way the dwarfs talk, perhaps they would use bagpipes instead of trumpets to go to war.

I think of drums.

[Nehetsrev]

Personally I wouldn't care if the new instrument types had different bonuses to than those of the existing instruments or not.  I'd just like the option to carry different types of instruments available for RP purposes.  My character Lyle, if possible, would prefer to play a pan-flute, or even a flute or picolo.  As is, all the instruments we've got so far are pretty much stringed instruments, except the chimes which would fall more under precussion.  I think some smaller drums, and a few woodwinds would be great, also one or two horns from the brass family of instruments would be nice as well.

I'm pretty sure I've even seen the flute as an equipeable fashion accessory in one of the other NWN modules before finding my home here on Layonara, so some of the item models may already be out there for our use to save on some of the developmental work.

Anyway, let's not see the idea of new instruments die.

[Acacea]

Chimes actually are the pan-flutes, strangely enough.

[SuperMunch]

I use the chimes as the pan flute.  

As for instruments, I'd love it if there were some bagpipes.

[darkstorme]

Well, the problem with most of these (admittedly fun) ideas is that they involve new model creation, whereas all the other instruments are adapted from their CEP models.  Lots 'o work.  If Talan says they are working on it, it may come to pass... but otherwise, best be working up the .erfs yourselves to submit to the team for consideration.  (I would if I could, but I have no talent in such things.)

[Talan Va'lash]

darkstorme - 7/26/2006  7:35 PM  Well, the problem with most of these (admittedly fun) ideas is that they involve new model creation, whereas all the other instruments are adapted from their CEP models.  Lots 'o work.  If Talan says they are working on it, it may come to pass... but otherwise, best be working up the .erfs yourselves to submit to the team for consideration.  (I would if I could, but I have no talent in such things.)

 
  The new instrument things (unfortunately) don't include any new holdables. They do include some new art that some of you may have already seen IG at this point.
 
  The reason they aren't yet available to craft is that the method of entering recipes into the game since the method of storing recipes was changed is rather onerous. The change brough a huge performance increase though in terms of lag decrese and server stability, the downside was we have had this period where we haven't been able to get any new recipes IG until some auto recipe injector utils are worked up. Just felt I had to give at least some explanation of why I said they were coming in soon in february and they're still not entirely available now.
 
  With that said, there are a bunch of new CNR items that are in the world now for this series of items and another (that I shant mention for purposes of keeping you in suspense.) So, if you find something weird that looks like it might be CNR (i.e. has no purpose otherwise) hang on to it and imagine what you could make with it. I hope we'll be able to get the recipe insertion running smoothly soon too (with that said, I don't do, or know DBs well enough to help out with this and the people that we have that do DBs are the ones that are and have been bogged down with other stuff for a good while like, regular server updates, module management and lore just to name a few.)
 
  In conclusion, thank you for your patience! Oh, and if you see some of the beautiful new art I hinted at above, give Lalaith a pat on the back! She is sensative and needs encouragement like that *nod nod*
 

[OldBear]

Wasn't sure where to post this question and this thread seemed to make as much sense as anything. My dwarf Dalan is a wood crafer but not a bard.  I am trying to figure out why only a bard can make a musical instrument.  Surely many instruments are made by people that can't play the instrument.  I like the idea of him being able to craft a lovely wooden instrument that could bring joy to the population even if he could never use it himself.  I mean he can make arrows for instance that are above his level to use.  I was just wondering the rational behind requireing all instruments to be made by bards only.  Thanks for any information you can provide on this.

[Dorganath]

Well I believe it's a balancing thing...but also, while someone might be able to make an instrument, they might not be able to tune it, and all the musical instruments give bonuses to Perform while held, which is primarily a Bard skill. As such, some random dwarven woodworker would probably lack the nuance and ear to properly tune an instrument to achieve the proper effect.
  The exception to the Perform bonus are the 4 horns mentioned above, but even so, their tones and such enable their magical abilities.
  At least, that's the theory I believe. It may also be a balancing issue, which means sometimes we just have to do some things to keep them even, even if those things don't always make complete realistic sense.

[Leanthar]

As far as I know, and I may be wrong, but we do not limit instrument making to bards... don't think we do at least.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

We do, actually, L. Music Instrument crafting is one of the VERY few crafts Pyyran hasn't at least dabbled in. (The other four are Enchanting, Infusing, Weapon Crafting and Armor Crafting, due to spell requirements and weapon proficiencies respectively.)

One of the requirements for each recipie is "Class: Bard." While Pyyran can get past the UMD on the Tuning fork for that... It doesn't work so well on the crafting station.

[Leanthar]

*puts the task of rethinking insturment making in the back of his mind* Thanks Stephen, I will think about this some more.