Jack of all trades....

[Wintersheart]

Ar7 - 10/11/2005  7:18 PM

Similar topics have been started from time to time and I always remember that Ghost was against any restrictions, well so am I. You seem to forget why people come to Layonara and what do they seek here. People are here to have fun, for some it is the RP, for some it is the adventure and for others, like myself, Ghost and many others, it is crafting. We do it, because we enjoy it or due to some circumstances, like a nearly empty server during the time we play. Most of the time I am online, I craft, I do believe many others do the same thing. If you take it away from us, we will probably play a lot less, as you take the fun away.

Ar7

Will bring this forward in the discussion again as it nicely sums up my view.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

My opinion is summed up simply in this: Class-based bonuses.

To elaborate, I am essentially agreeing with those who have said that instead of restrictions, certain classes should get bonuses to various crafting schools. In all honesty, I feel the system could be more realistic if each crafting skill were tied to an appropriate other skill, but not only would that be drastically tedious to implement for our GMs, that sort of thing is already somewhat displayed in the number of skill points per level each class gets. In other words, Fighters and the like (2+INT skill points per level?) would generally be the worst craftsmen, while Rogues (with a whopping 8+INT) would generally be the best. Admittedly, there would be some differences, including a greater inclination towards smithing than Rogues, for Fighters, but the general idea is reasonably apparent.

Now, however, I've got to go get ready to leave. Adieu.

[Wintersheart]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 10/19/2005  12:02 PM

My opinion is summed up simply in this: Class-based bonuses.

To elaborate, I am essentially agreeing with those who have said that instead of restrictions, certain classes should get bonuses to various crafting schools. In all honesty, I feel the system could be more realistic if each crafting skill were tied to an appropriate other skill, but not only would that be drastically tedious to implement for our GMs, that sort of thing is already somewhat displayed in the number of skill points per level each class gets. In other words, Fighters and the like (2+INT skill points per level?) would generally be the worst craftsmen, while Rogues (with a whopping 8+INT) would generally be the best. Admittedly, there would be some differences, including a greater inclination towards smithing than Rogues, for Fighters, but the general idea is reasonably apparent.

Now, however, I've got to go get ready to leave. Adieu.

Sorry but that is a bad idea. The current system effectively already give class bonuses. A rogue has high dex and often good int. That will make him good at gem cutting. A cleric with good wisdom and charisma will be good at infusion.

Secondly the system we currently uses does not tie in with skill points. If your change was implemented that would leave many medium to high level crafters that don't level very often out to dry. Imagine Rufus a level 23 mage. He is currently among the very best crafters. Now implement a skill sstem on top of crafting and what then. How often would he level? Within a short time span all the current crafters (who have spent a a lot time and effort learning their trades) would be overtaken by beginning characters that level often and thus gain many skill points.

Leave the current system as it is. Unique items are welcome, but restrictions placed upon the system would have dire consequences for many exiting crafters. Thus taking our fun out of the game and making our effort void.

And I see no reason why rogue should be better craftsman than others. They make fine tailors and gemcutters as it is. What would make a rogue a better smith than a fighter or greater enchanter than a wizard?

[Wintersheart]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 10/19/2005  12:02 PM

My opinion is summed up simply in this: Class-based bonuses.

To elaborate, I am essentially agreeing with those who have said that instead of restrictions, certain classes should get bonuses to various crafting schools. In all honesty, I feel the system could be more realistic if each crafting skill were tied to an appropriate other skill, but not only would that be drastically tedious to implement for our GMs, that sort of thing is already somewhat displayed in the number of skill points per level each class gets. In other words, Fighters and the like (2+INT skill points per level?) would generally be the worst craftsmen, while Rogues (with a whopping 8+INT) would generally be the best. Admittedly, there would be some differences, including a greater inclination towards smithing than Rogues, for Fighters, but the general idea is reasonably apparent.

Now, however, I've got to go get ready to leave. Adieu.

Heh didn't mean to sound quite that grumpy, but any major changes (or minor for that sake) to the crafting system should consider very carefully the position and consequences for existing crafters. So sorry for being grumpy.

[Harloff]

*scratches his beard* I can't help but wonder why the existing crafters are the ones that defend the current system so agressively...

But as one of the high level crafters with many different crafts as well i would hate to see all my work go down the drain as well. If the system should be made class dependend i think it should only have minor influence say figther and barbarians have 5 or 10 % extra chance on succes with weapon and armor crafting, rangers have 5-10 % extra on wood craftin etc.. no more than that.

[Wintersheart]

Harloff - 10/19/2005  1:17 PM

*scratches his beard* I can't help but wonder why the existing crafters are the ones that defend the current system so agressively...

Because we are the ones who has put effort into it!

[Harloff]

Wintersheart - 10/19/2005  1:32 PM

Harloff - 10/19/2005  1:17 PM

*scratches his beard* I can't help but wonder why the existing crafters are the ones that defend the current system so agressively...

Because we are the ones who has put effort into it!

*slaps his head*

why didn't I think of that...

[Wintersheart]

Harloff - 10/19/2005  1:42 PM

Wintersheart - 10/19/2005  1:32 PM

Harloff - 10/19/2005  1:17 PM

*scratches his beard* I can't help but wonder why the existing crafters are the ones that defend the current system so agressively...

Because we are the ones who has put effort into it!

*slaps his head*

why didn't I think of that...

Please dont ask me to answer that question Skarp

Runs of laughing....

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Harloff - 10/19/2005  7:17 AM

*scratches his beard* I can't help but wonder why the existing crafters are the ones that defend the current system so agressively...

But as one of the high level crafters with many different crafts as well i would hate to see all my work go down the drain as well. If the system should be made class dependend i think it should only have minor influence say figther and barbarians have 5 or 10 % extra chance on succes with weapon and armor crafting, rangers have 5-10 % extra on wood craftin etc.. no more than that.

That's pretty much what I was saying... (And no, I never said anything about rogues being better at smithing than fighters; quite the opposite, if admittedly in rather akward grammar.) Basically, that the crafting system, if it were to be altered, simply give some small bonuses to various things based on class. Specifically, the number of skill points each class gets. The more the class gets, the more inclined to crafting in general that class would be. In other words, they would perhaps get a percentile bonus equivalent to the number of base skill points they get every level. Cleric, Paladin, Fighter, and Sorceror/Wizard all get 2, Barbarian, Druid, and Monk get 4, Bard and Ranger get 6, and Rogue gets 8. That's not much of a boost, and would be a bit more fitting if perhaps you lowered all of those by 2, as we don't really want to make the crafting system as it stands any easier.

[Harloff]

hmm... I stilll can't see why a rogue should be a better crafter in general. Besides they will most likely be good at most crafts due to their stats, since dex is used in MANY crafts: Tinkering, tailoring, smithing (armor and weapons), smelting, wood crafting, instrument crafting and gem crafting, that is 8 of 15 crafts. Hence a thief is a good craffter as it is.

[miltonyorkcastle]

oi, this has been brought up across the forums, so this has been said before, but the crafts are already fairly class specific.  Why?  well, certain crafts require spells, which limits them to casters, certain crafts require tools that one class or another can't use (forcing those determined to craft to use feat slots), and since crafts are based around stats, the classes that tend to excell in the stat required for the specific craft already start off with a bonus in that craft.

I.E.  Sorcerors can't mine without ore without a feat (and even then, because low strength, it's really hard), and for the most part, stink at weapon/armor crafting since they lack the strength to boost their chance of success.  However, they are naturals at gem crafting, having an extraordinary charisma and usually a decent dexterity, plus they can mine the gems.

Fighters can mine all day, but have the dangdest time with charisma/wisdom/inteligent based crafts.

So, I think, not to mention the coding work, that more class/race based bonuses for the crafting system is not at all needed.  

As far as restricting the number of crafts a being can learn, I think that's (no offense) rediculous.  There is nothing wrong with a Jack of all trades, master of none.  And Intelligence has more to do with how fast you learn a craft, more than whether you can learn it at all.  Very simple people can learn a variety of trades and perform them extraordinarily well.  It just usually takes them years longer than others to learn them.  This is represented in the CNR by the stat bonuses for crafting.  
If anything is to be done, I think (and this has also been mentioned before by others) that we slow down the progression of levels, so that if you really want to be a jack of all trades, it will take you ages to get any good at one craft because you have to spread your time and focus so much.  I think this would encourage more focus in one or two crafts, as the time it takes to learn that one would be like what it takes to become decent at three to four under the current rate.  Also, this would encourage more commerce between players.  That is, rather than a weapon smith making his own molds, he chooses to purchase them from a tinkerer, because making the molds takes so much more time.
The disadvantage of this would be that players who are already high-level crafters would have a severe advantage on up and coming crafters.
Of course, as it seems many are interested in starting apprenticeship and teaching sessions, it makes for really good RP that we have strong crafters that can take on apprentices.

[Ar7]

*sighs* I would really like to know why some people try as hard as they can to limit CNR. Why?

Some will say that it would balance the overall economy of the world. But if you look at the current situation, then the people who have  reached a high level in a number of crafts are exactly those people that do not sell items for a low price or mass produce them. It is in their best interests to keep the economy stable. Do you really think that people like Plenarius, Gloin, Kobal, Harg, Andraia, Eldarwen, Xiao, Enzo are the ones ruining the economy?

Others will say that it is too easy to become level 20 in all crafts and that ruins the feel of the world. We have hundreds of players, almost all of them craft, but how many master crafters like Gloin do you see? Examine the tradeskill page and you will see that those characters have been here for a long time and they spent most of their time crafting, don't you think they deserve it? And no, it is not possible to become a master in all crafts over night.

So please, stop trying to fix what isn't broken. Our CNR is great, it is already class and race dependant ( as was already said ) and very difficult for a beginning player. If you do not craft, fine, if you do, once again, fine, but any kind of limitation ( especially if it doesn't bring anything good to the world ) always causes frustration and takes away the fun.

[Meizter]

Very well put Ar7, I completely agree.

[s0ulz]

Ar7 - 11/3/2005  11:12 AM

*sighs* I would really like to know why some people try as hard as they can to limit CNR. Why?

Some will say that it would balance the overall economy of the world. But if you look at the current situation, then the people who have  reached a high level in a number of crafts are exactly those people that do not sell items for a low price or mass produce them. It is in their best interests to keep the economy stable. Do you really think that people like Plenarius, Gloin, Kobal, Harg, Andraia, Eldarwen, Xiao, Enzo are the ones ruining the economy?

Others will say that it is too easy to become level 20 in all crafts and that ruins the feel of the world. We have hundreds of players, almost all of them craft, but how many master crafters like Gloin do you see? Examine the tradeskill page and you will see that those characters have been here for a long time and they spent most of their time crafting, don't you think they deserve it? And no, it is not possible to become a master in all crafts over night.

So please, stop trying to fix what isn't broken. Our CNR is great, it is already class and race dependant ( as was already said ) and very difficult for a beginning player. If you do not craft, fine, if you do, once again, fine, but any kind of limitation ( especially if it doesn't bring anything good to the world ) always causes frustration and takes away the fun.

I also completely agree... Ar7 and I have discussed this IRL quite many times and share this view.

[Harloff]

I Agree, we don't have problems with the crafting system... We have a problems with the economy but that is a different issue and can't be solved by restricting the crafting system, atleast I can't see how it should help...

[Variable]

*nods in agreement* Well said