The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: on November 13, 2004, 10:22:00 pm
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I'm sorry, but alchemy doesn't really have 'that' much use, its really hard to do, and isn't very profitable.
I've been into alchemy for some time now, I know alot about it. It goes somthing like this. . .
1- Go ALL over the world to gather materials.
2- Go to one of VERY few places to craft alchemical agents.
3- Get what you've made. Sell them(one time), use them(one time), or throw them(one time).
4- Start over.
I've traveled more looking specifically for alchemy ingredients then to find a nice new city, or looking for beefy monsters to kick around. I think alchemy could use some improvement.
So. . . I suggest. . .
1-A Transmutation circle!
--Somthing you can make at an alchemists table, and carry in your inventory.
--Use it to create a temporary object on the ground, and remove the item in the inventory.
--The new object on the ground is the Transmutation circle.
--Use the on-ground object to perform acts of alchemy, full, or limited.
--When the duration runs out, the object drops out all of the items, and disappears without a trace. (one time use)
2-Bigger & better bombs!
--Harder to make.
--More deadly (perhaps death magics?)
3-Coats for weapons!
--Temporary bonuses to weapons.
--Daze, stunning, blah blah etc etc. . .
4-Chemical reactants!
--Smoke bombs, for get-aways(area effect of darkness, fog, temporary invis for friendlies in area etc)
--Petrification bombs. (few seconds of petrification)
--Hold-Person bombs. (hold-person effects)
--Laughing gas. (throw and induce tasha's hideous laughter-type effect)
--Sleeping gas. (knock people down, and sleep effects)
--Confusion gas. (confusion-type effects)
BAM! Thats a few ideas. Some good. Some better. Some great. (in my opinion)
What do you guys think?
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Alright. I've been doing alchemy for the longest time.
First of all it aint useless. Alchemy give you options, lots of them. To this day every single recipe in the table has been useful to me barring the metal dyes. And it has saved my butt countless of times.
The fact that its so spread about the world is what makes it entertaining. If everything is one step from Hlint then it would just become another botched craft were everyone is level 20 and crafting millions of retarded potions just because they can. Alchemy will never be an easy craft and to be honest I'm very very very happy about that.
As it is right now, its a craft that you have to put work and dedication to it and it should stay that way.
There are more towers around the world to work it. Some were already there, others have been added. But Hlint isn't the only one.
Now as far as your recommendations.
Carrying stuff to make it down the road: Not going to happen, part of crafting is getting your character out of the place back to civilization.
All those new recipes mean two things. Bloat and not enough time to do it. As of right now the craft has LOADS of things in it. More and it becomes a nightmare.
More importantly there's not enough staff to work all these things.
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Alrighty. . .
First off I didn't say it was useless, I just said it didn't have" 'that' much use". It could be misconstrued, but what I mean was it wasn't as useful, nor as popular, as some of the other crafts.
Secondly, it does save lives, but thats not somthing others cannot do. . .
-Invisibility? Wizards, some clerics, rogues, sorcerors, & bards can do that with either a spell or a scroll, from scribing.
-Haste? The same list can do that, by the same means.
-Healing? Clerics, rogues, paladins, rangers, & bards have that.
-Buff potions(bulls str etc)? All the classes listed above can do that by some means.
-Damage bombs? Those can be useful, yes. Fire bombs & acid bombs do some damage, but is meager in comparison to the spells some classes can do.
-Ill effect bombs? The dc is very low, and I've almost never gotten one to do much, other than to goblins.
-Glowy enchantments? Yep. Those look nice, but some require some valuable items, just for some glow.
Thirdly, the only people who really 'need' these potions, that can be a bit well priced, are fighters, barbarians. . . some, but few, clerics. The rangers might need some and. . . the rogues. Maybe uhh. . . Thats all I can think of now. But thats a pretty good list. . . But still. I also see some of the potions I used to sell being sold at the magic shop vendor for less than what I was reccommended to sell mine for. Which only until the major price increase, could I sell the potions for a somewhat profitable price. So. . . All the running around, collecting ingredients has to be for what few rare customers I get, or for myself, which they often are.
I wasn't only reccommending for my ideas to be taken in per se, but I wanted people to look back through alchemy, Its only useful for the maker, I cannot sell my work for market value and expect to make much money, or I can collect all this stuff for myself, yes as I said, but its still only one time use, for some quite valueable items. I merely wanted to spark some ideas from my own mind, and perhaps conjure up some in other people's minds, so maybe somthing sell-worthy can be made, or perhaps somthing longer lasting than one-time-use potions, that can take some very valuable ingredients.
Though I still do, and will continue to do alchemy.
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Oh, and also I wanted to ask how am I supposed to gather materials for alchemy, when GMs, or more speciffically a GM doesn't let someone camp a cnr spawn for their allowed time, eh?
Yea, you remember don't you? I do. I was at a sapphire spawn for about 20 mins, and you killed me. Yea. You killed me while I was trying to mine some sapphire. I didn't get my time, how am I supposed to make my potions without my materials?
"Camping CNR materials is okay, as long as it doesnt last over like 30 min, and you don't weigh yourself down silly, like 500 lbs when you can only carry 150....."
You say you like to run around and find the materials, so do I. But Its hard that when I finally find it, a GM doesn't let me stay there for long enough to get enough of it to make use of the material.
-PoB
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Alchemy is for people who do not have access to spells. As Pankoki said it gives fighters, rogues, barbarians etc a bigger chance to survive and greater divercity in what they can and can't do. It is not meant for a wizards or other spellcasters ( As weird as it sounds ) because non of them would craft a potion of Bull's Strenght when their own duration of the same spell is way more longer.
With that said Alchemy currently is a useful craft and actually one of the most fun.
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Far too true Ar7. It is quite useful for the fighter, ranger, barbarian, and the rogue. They can get the healing potions, and buff potions. The buffs having limited duration, being somewhat expensive to any who really need it. But the only really useful potions are cure serious, cure critical, and heal. Those and invisibility potions. Some buffing potions for crafts, as they last far too short for an epic battle, and they'd have to be sold for relatively cheap because of their short duration.
I'd like to also ask why invisibility potions are being sold at the magic vendor? Those are useful, and people should by them, but not from a npc. You cannot buy any good weapons or armors from npcs. . .
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Ok first of all. That little incident in the cave was far more than you are stating there. Be honest with yourself and remember you were abusing the spawn madly. I'm not gonna get into an argument right now of what you did or did not. That issue as far as I am concerned was solved at that point. If you have a problem then we need to discuss in-game and with another GM present. I will not bring these forums down to a flame fight because you think I have something against you.
Now if you took the time to look at the magic vendor you would notice that in the last update potion prices were increased to a mad rate. Like 700 gp per potion. This was done for the same reason you state above. Alchemy had no market and that should help to sell more.
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I thought over what you said and think that things that give weapons special abilities should be quite interesting. Things like vampiric regenerations, daze, stun etc. Make them last 1 turn to keep their power in check. But i think the main issue here is time and the lack of human resources, so even if the idea is good there are still higher priorities the team has.
PS: PoB it should be ? ????? ???? :)
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I like the idea of enchantments on blades lasting for one turn (10 minutes in RL). That stuff would be pretty neat no doubt. When we get a chance perhaps Forsettii can look in to it because it would be cool.
Ar7 what does ? ????? ???? mean?
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It's i love cake in Russian :)
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Mmmm...russian cake...
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ya I suggested somethiging similar for enchanting lol.
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1 turn is a lot less then 10 minutes RT it's closer to 2
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Wasn't it
round - 6 sec
turn - 1 minute
hours - 2 minutes?
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Yup.
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Ok people, lets calm down and take a deep breath....
Right now there are really only 2 hard cord alchemists in the world Triba and Perago. I do some but mostly the low end stuff, Ess of cure for heal kits.
Potions are for those time when you are out of spells and you can not rest or that quick invisiblity potion to get your butt out of that place you done want it to be.
As a fighter type I use potions all the time, mostly cure types and bark skin.
Yes, Alchemy is a real time consuming skill. You have to run all over the place to get the stuff you need to make poitions and stuff and yes, one of the three items is hard to get.
You will find Alchemy is easier for magic users and bards (invisibilty) and thievies (hide and sneek). I as a fighter have to either fight my way in (not always a good idea) are use potions of invisibilty.
As for not being able to sell potions for a profit, I DO NOT want to here you cry about that. I am a 22 lvl tailor, You do not want to know how many items I have made at a lose... Have you very checked the price the pawn people pay for leather armour.
I costs you what 3-7 gp to make a potion, and thats only if you buy the bottle and flask, if you make the bottle and flask you cost is ZIP...
All and all I find Alchemy very use full, it keeps me alive. ;)
Have a nice Day
Asher
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You're right. It doesn't take much money to make potions. But it takes some awfully valuable items to make them (diamond dust, emerald dust). And thats to make a one time use potion. Useful? Quite. It is indeed useful. But only for that one time.
As for your comparison to tailoring. . .
You only gave an instance for pawn shops. Of course you aren't going to make alot of money from a pawn shop! Neither would I!
But tailoring has somthing alchemy doesn't have. A lasting effect. Yes. Alchemy is all one time use, other than the glowy things. You make armors, gloves, boots, belts, cloaks etc etc. All potentially lasting a lifetime. And how much can you sell the most valuable item, made from tailoring, for? Ahh. I see.
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difference is if you find people to buy some alchemy stuff from you, they will need to keep coming back, if you sell someone a suit of armor they will have that suit till they get something better, so alchemy tends to make more money in that regard
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Point for thunder.
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i enchant potions at the moment because i'm a cleric and if only sold one cure light wounds to each person i sell to then i would make almost nothing. But because i sell in mass amounts, like 25 to the orc basher's shop, i can make a prophit. if i had only sold one then i would have lost money, since i buy half my knuckles, and would have gained almost no xp in making such a small amount of stuff. i agree with thunder that the amount you sell is what truely makes the prophit. and for tailoring have you seen how much spidersilk costs it drives the price to make the stuff throught the roof?
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I do alchemy for one reason. It saves me money on my spell components for one of the spells I tend to cast a lot as soon as I can get it. Yes I do plan on taking Eschew Materials II but that is 12th level and well I like to cast firebrand it is available at 7th or 9th level, If anyone remembers Alexei they will remember he used that much more often than fireball. Leonid does not even have fireball in his spellbook. Alchemy has its uses and yes it is difficult to gather the stuff but imagine if you can barely carry your gear and you want to get enough stuff to actually make the trip to the alchemists table worthwhile.
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I am a bit of an alchemist myself, and some may agree that alchemy is the precursor to modern science. If it were not part of our ancient and middle history, science would not be what it is today.
Alchemists made glass and experimented with alloying different metals with glass for different properties and coloration.
They would extract the essence from plants, but only after reducing wine to pure alcohol for the purpose of making tinctures and extractions.
They could also reduce various organs of an animal to gather ingredients in order to make potions and poisons.
To the uneducated, this would appear as magic, but to an alchemist, it was trial and error with positive results, though more disasters befelled the alchemist than discoveries.
I would say that being an alchemist is a poly-craft, as it includes gem crafting, tinkering, smelting, cooking, brewing and poison making. Given that, perhaps a PrC of alchemist or artificer would be in order, but perhaps also only as an NPC.
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I would like to see a high level alchemy potion of "magical refreshment" or some such. Idea would be that by drinking the potion you recharge spells as if you had rested. I'm not thinking of getting all your spells; maybe just first through third circle or some such. I expect it would be one of the toughest potions to make and would require rare components such as diamond dust. Something that a spell slinger would want to save one of as a last resort. E.g. your at the bottom of haven mines and out of spells. You drink the potion to recover your invisibility spells and get yourself and your party out.
I don't know if this is feasible from a programming standpoint b/c it would be like a partial rest. In fact it might even count as your rest period as an added penalty. i.e. your so wired fromteh potion that you can't rest again for 10 minutes.
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Historically speaking of course and in accordance to RL history. Alchemy was the basis to modern science. With the cataloguing of various plants and animals from around the world by various explorers and authors. Only when the first explorers came across near east, middle east and far east did Alchemy have a beginning. The name implies 'of the earth or black earth'...Al Khem.
Alchemy has been broken down in the game into various categories.
tinkering, with glass making and molds (though lacking in the idea of -lurgical applications)
smelting, with the making of bronze (though where is the electrum:1 gold ingot + 1 silver ingot)
alchemy, within the tower north of hlint, its possible to combine plant product with animal product.
cooking
and brewing in the kitchen inn, is also an integral part of alchemy as well (mind you it would be nice to have a distillation device in the kitchen. Its one thing to have the farmers press, but distillation either by steaming or by boiling in wine would be a nice option, and introduce liquors and extracts.
I guess that for the purposes of alloying materials and liquids, one could call it infusion in a way, though definitely not the same as enchantment. Infusion should not be magical, but enchantment, most definitely.
Alchemy in the true sense is a poly-craft. All things required to do it properly should come from all over Layonara. Not every plant, animal or mineral should be found on just one continent or island.
Just a side note: it would be nice to be able to make tubing, unless of course you introduce bamboo (Gilligan's Island ring any bells?)
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I actually don't think there are any official 'origins' to Alchemy in RL. It's been around as long as life has existed. Simply being around plants and minerals will teach you some of their properties with simple interaction. In some creatures, it is even bred into their genetic knowledge.
How many Dog owners can vouch for the fact that their dogs eat Grass when they have an upset stomach. Thats not a trick we teach them, and they usually only do it when they do have an upset stomach. It's an easy way to tell when your dog really isnt feeling good. :) Instinctively, even animals know the alchemical properties of the some of the plants around them.
As far as the CNR Tradeskill goes (Wow, this thread is old), I think Alchemy is one of the most balanced tradeskills on the server (Always has been, even back when I played in 2003), and it's also one of the few that has the potential to make a continuous profit since the product is disposable. My old Mage Char Nazan (dunno if many remember him) used to make a boatload of money with alchemy once he started getting good with it. It takes a ton of work to master alchemy, but the rewards are definately there for those that put the effort in.
-Jester