The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: silverdraco on August 15, 2006, 02:06:34 pm
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I found something that is kindoff bothering me. I already solved the problem but not to my likking.
my character Sonya Darsus is now manly crafting jewels and with it she has to cut and polish gems. Now in the past i have gotten a lot of greenstone and Malachite gems that I had cut but never got to polishing them. Now I was stuck with about 250 of thise cut greenstone and cut malachite gems and no other option then to polish them or destroy them or sell them to one of those pawn shops.
I was wondering if it might be posible to get an option to be able to smash cut gems and not just flawed and uncut gems?
I misted this option as I could have used the gem dust from the cut malachite gems to make polishing oils.
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I want this, too. I've been on too many mushroom runs just because I couldn't do anything else with cut gems.
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Why don't you polish them?
Polished gems can be infused, enchanted, made into jewelry. There are many options for using polished gems. Unfinished Gems have limited uses because they are exactly that, unfinished.
I don't think gem crafting needs anything done to it.
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Well, yes, but Pyyran RARELY has the metals to make fine gems into jewlery, and he can't infuse. So getting gem dust out of the bargain sounds great. Also, polishing oil is at a premium for him.
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I understand where Pyyran is coming from and I had seen elsewhere a machine that will grind up any kind of gem, (Can't recall where now) whether it be polished, enchanted, infused . . and when used gives out one bag of dust. Its about the same effect as if someone was to take a hammer or chisel to the gem. Anything you pound will get you a little dust and chunks, thats why the one bag.
Whereas crafting them with the current system as a mineral into dust , you work at it and if successful you get multiple bags.
So I think a small grinder placed in the crafthall that would recognize gems and minerals only and give you the appropriate dust would be a help to those like Pyyran. Besides, instead of saving these enchnated or fine gems for that special ring you find yourself needing dust and not wanting to traipse across the continents . . crunch . . and go mine again if you need that enchanted gem. If you did it once, you could do it again.
But then, that is just my opinion . .
~ Jil
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proablem with a cruncher, Jil, is that mages that wish to cast stoneskin will now simple be able to use this, and not have to learn to grind them. so there is a small proablem there.
@Step, cutting the Gem gets you EXP, for nothing, all you need is a gem and the chisle and you can get exp. Now if you could add another thing so you could grind the gems, that means you will get more exp, for little work. Where as with polishing, it costs you something to take that extra step. I use to think the same way, oh it would be nice if i could grind cut gems so i dident have to spend coin on the oils, then i thought maybe thats WHY they dont let you smash cut gems, becouse its about balance. As i see it its perfiect as it is.
On and Sonya, your not the only one who has ended up with ALOT of gems you no longer get exp from, just toss them out. i had something like 200 Malachite at one time when i was paying folks to bring the gems to me, then i ended up with a mountain and they became trivel, so into the trash they went. Though you could set them into rings, its kinda a waist of the metals and time in my opinion.
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Actualy at the moment I am the one who has to provide about 434 bottle of Polishing oil to Sonya lol. Having the dust from ct gems would help a lot in the process of making the postion as I haev someone brining me a box of mush almost every 2 days.
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Donate the gems to the deity of your choice?
Sell them to the pawns?
Sell them to enchanters/infusers?
*shrugs*
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Hellblazer - 8/16/2006 1:13 AM
Actualy at the moment I am the one who has to provide about 434 bottle of Polishing oil to Sonya lol. Having the dust from ct gems would help a lot in the process of making the postion as I haev someone brining me a box of mush almost every 2 days.
the point was that its more free exp and would make lvling in the craft alot faster. I thought it out along time ago when i took up the craft and how nice it would be and how much more exp i would get, but thats just it, its for a balance thing, i think. If you want the dust, grind them up in the first place.
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My apologies Logangrimnar, The unit I had seen did not give xp for grinding the gems ito dust. I should have mentioned that.
~ Jil
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One dust out of a topaz for zero XP? That's a waste if you're ANYTHING of a gemcrafter. But if you're not, it's a handy tool. Also, if you've got a bunch of cut greenstone or malachite that you don't have the oil to polish (or the metal to set it in), that little bit of dust can be nice. As for cost, jeez. Does it cost ANYTHING to cook, woodcraft, smith, etc.? Sure, I guess you could by gum arabic from the magic vendor, but sheesh. It's far, far easier to get gum arabic in quantity than white mushrooms. Or you could buy your sugar, salt, molds... Yes, you have to buy a 4gp yeast every now and again, for cooks. But set that against a 15-25gp polishing oil. Now let's consider balance for a moment. Let's assume you're trying to get dust out of a Fire Opal. So, you have two choices. Set the opal on the grinding stone, or the cutting stone. If you use the grinding stone, you get either two or three dusts; I don't recall. If you use the cutting stone, and succeed at cutting it, you get a cut opal and an opal dust. If you fail, you get an opal dust. Let's assume you succeed. You can take it to the polishing bench, and try polishing it; that'll give you a flawed stone if you fail. Crush that on the grinding stone, and you get another dust, for a total of two. Let's assume that at any point along the way, you toss the stone into the Pounder. You get one dust out of it. If you cut it successfully, you've already got one dust. So another one? Nifty! But... That's only one more. For a total of two. End product:
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 8/16/2006 11:37 AM
You can take it to the polishing bench, and try polishing it; that'll give you a flawed stone if you fail. Crush that on the grinding stone, and you get another dust, for a total of two.
I don't know if the yield is different for different types of stones, but from my experience, gem smashing/grinding always provides at least 1 dust, plus 2 extra on success. That's a total of two on failure, four on success, plus the extra XP.
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Yields of dusts on grinding success vary by gemstones.
Greenstones return 3 dusts, I think, Higher level stones yield 2 or even 1. This is for successes.
For ALL grinding attempts, success or fail, you also receive 1 dust as a by-product.
So fail, and get 1 dust. Succeed and get 2-4, depending on the mineral.
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So, the general consensus is that grinding a stone at ANY point with the Pounder would yield less dust, AND no XP, as compared to actually grinding it on the grinding bench.
However, it would open up the option of getting one more dust for no XP at ANY stage of the gemcrafting.
My vote's for it. Anyone else?
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the reasion i say the grinder is bad is becouse you dont have to work at all to use it. Even if you get no exp its still to much. Mith took up gem craft for the soul purpose of Topaz Dust, now if i could just toss my rocks in a grinder i wouldent have had to work to get the items needed to cast what is a quite powerful spell. Sure you have to work to get the stones themselves from the ogers, but you shouledent be able to just pop it into a mechine and have it ground up. Next we will be seeing a wood chipper IG, so now i can go get the Mahogany that i cant turn into saw dust becouse i dont do wood work, and i can drop it into the chipper and ta da, i get saw dust for scrolls and i did no work at all.
And in the defence of Cooking, look at the income of a cook, then look at one of a gem crafter. A cook has less expensices but makes nothing from his work. A gem crafter pays alot for oils and can eventually make alot of money, and the next step is Enchanting, costs a fortune, but you will make your money back 100x over easily in the end. Smithing is not cheep of easy, pick axes are 70 something coins, hammers are what.. 30 something, the greater hammer(advanced crafting?) is 2k or something. Then you have to carry ore that is 10.5 lbs each, and Smelt it, then you need paterns which i have no idea of the cost. So, as a gem crafter its 15 coin or somthing per oil, or as a Smith, its 70 for the pick(balsawood picks) and the hammer is 30 something, both tend to break alot..
crafts seam to cost more bassed on possable income, tailoring you need to skin and thread and patterns and kits and all that, wood work you get axes.. and lots and lots of splinters.
If we are actually voting, i would say No.
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Not having to work to get a dust from a topaz? Logan, what you don't seem to realize is that putting a gem in the grinder would essentially be like putting it on a bench and failing your roll. The only thing NEW it would do would be allow people to grind cut, fine, and enchanted gems, as well, and all for no XP.
You put a Topaz in the grinder. You get 1 Topaz dust. You put a Topaz on the grinding bench, and succeed. I think that's 3 Topaz dusts, and some XP. Or maybe you fail. That's 1 Topaz dust, and no XP.
Putting it on the grinder is like auto-failing a grinding attempt, only you can do it with any stage of gem.
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I think you should be able to make dust at any stage of a gem, rough, cut or polished. My wife is a jeweler in RL and she's turned a few gems into dust accidently LOL (thank the gods she'll never read this). I just think you should be able to put a cut or polished stone on the smashing table and at least get one dust back for it. The yeild could even be less the better quality gem, maybe you would only get one dust from a polished gem since you have taken so much weight away while cutting and polishing it. I to carry around alot of fairly useless gems, why would I bother anymore to set greenstones and such when it is trivial to make unless someone specifically asked for the ring or amulet?
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but you cant just up and smash a gem, if you have no skill in the scraft you cant even attempte to smash the topaz. So my meaning is, if there is a Grinder added, they will have no need to learn the skills of Gem Craft like everyone else who wanted to cast stoneskin.
And you wouldent bother setting Greenstones, the dust isent used for anything anyways, that i can recall.. the metal, be it copper or anything, isent worth waisting to set a greenstone inless someone is buying it.
Well though it might make sence to be able to grind it up, im talking about BALANCE, not of the things that make sence.. sure it makes sence, but if your going to add that, then there should be a wood chipper too, RL i can turn a hunk of wood to dust, just like a Gem. Not hard. But if that was added IG then i would start scribing, i dont scribe now becouse i dont do wood work. If we got a grinder, then heck, i dont need to work anymore to get saw dust, i can just grind it up and make some scrolls. And i dont think that is balanced, it makes sence, sure, but i dont know that it would be good for the world. The hole, not having topaz dust thing is a big phase to being a caster, well it was for me anyways, people blast threw lvls like paper now, took me quight awhile before i could go without needed Topaz Dust. And with this, it will be easy to get.
Guess im stubern or just not seeing the light here, it makes sence, but i dont think it would be right, inless it was added to other crafts as well. Id still vote No inless it was put for everything, and even then, i dont like the idea of being able to get the saw dust without having to actually work for it. Really its up to the GM's, so id like to hear what some of them think.
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It actually doesn't hurt balance at all to have the grinder; in theory, it would just pound at the stone and let the finest dust (the gem dust) filter through little holes in the bottom.
As to balance? It doesn't take ANY of the challenge out of gemcrafting. It AUTOMATICALLY FAILS YOUR ROLL.
The only change would be allowing for any stage of gem to be smashed.
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if you have 0 skill, exp, lvls whatever in gem craft, you can not make topaz dust. So you have to learn a little before you can begin to grind them. You cant just sit down and fail them all at 0% chance becouse when you have 0% it wont let you try. With the grinder you will never have to try to learn any crafting at all, i might not have learned gem craft at all if we had this, why would i need to? Now i understand this isent All about Topaz dust, but that is the first thing i would see being abused. You could just go grab a meneral and toss it in, getting a Dust, without ever having to cut Greenstones or Malachite and whatever else intell you can actually have the skill to grind topaz.
Now a way this could work so as to not do what im talking about. Make it like the ingot recycler, sometimes you get useable gem dust, sometimes you dont. That i think would be best. Now id also think you cant throw Menerals intot he grinder, RP reasion, the meneral has dirt and rocks on it, so it would mix in with your dust, or brake the grinder. So you could make it so you could ONLY gring up already processed gems. So, Cut the gem, then you can grind it. This will fix the issue with people not having to learn gem craft, and it will keep things balanced.
My sugestions to make it work added, id say sure, add this, add it to wood too to be fair. But with what i have here you at least have to have some skill to get the gems, or some way to get the processed gems via friend or whatever.
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I don't understand Logan . . . If you have no skill levels, no xp levels, If you have the dust, how do you expect to make the item? You can't. And what skill is required to crush a gem? Use a hammer, a chisel, another rock . .you still get dust, a small amount . .maybe one bag . . But Ido agree on the gem being at least cut first or any stage thereafter. As for the wood, anyone can saw . . . so one bag isn't too bad in collecting when you are done. But then this is all up to those that create these "machines". (Kinda feels bad she started a fire with the gem crusher idea)
My apologies for upsetting anyone though my stupid ideas. (She shuts up now)
~ Jil
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basicly so long as the gems are in some fourm other then meneral, then i think this would work fine. So you can go cut your gem, polish it, enchant it, then grind it up for dust. Im sorry if im confusing, really this makes perfict sence in my mind, i just dont word it well, thats what i get for taking all thouse naps in English.. Mmm.. thouse were such good naps.. oh yea anyways! Your right, it takes no skill to grind up a gem, but all im saying is in the case of Topaz dusts, they shouldent be able to just toss it, a Meneral Topaz, in the grinder and get a dust. IMO it should need to be cut first, thus creating a balance so people cant just get dusts without actually knowning Gem craft.
And i dont think you upsetting anyone Jil, no need to shut up *winks* im tring to explain it.. i swear it all makes perfiect sence to me! Must be something wrong with everone else.. jeez *grin*
As for wood, to keep it balanced, like the gem craft, though it would be required even more so for the wood id think. Make the "grinder" only good for.. well anything but a branch, you can toss a yew long bow in and get a yew dust, you can toss a hickory staff in and get a hickory dust, ect. But it cant be the raw meterials for eather process.
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Jilseponie Wyndon - 8/17/2006 2:19 AM
If you have no skill levels, no xp levels, If you have the dust, how do you expect to make the item? You can't.
What item?
And what skill is required to crush a gem? Use a hammer, a chisel, another rock . .you still get dust, a small amount . .maybe one bag . .
On Layonara, the Gem Crafting skill is required. On Layonara, it is entirely possible to be without the skill to crush a gem to produce useable dust. Maybe on a DM'd quest a character could whack a gem with a mace to get some dust, but in the day-to-day workings of the world, mace-smashed dust just isn't good enough. That's too brutish and unrefined. Hammer-whacking might make dust, but the dust particles will be of varying sizes and there's a good chance chunks of gem will fly all over the place. It takes a practiced hand and some skill with gems to be able to produce the right amount of dust at the right consistency. A skilled crafter can grind the entire gem into evenly sized particles.
LoganGrimnar - 8/16/2006 10:52 PM
So you could make it so you could ONLY gring up already processed gems. So, Cut the gem, then you can grind it. This will fix the issue with people not having to learn gem craft, and it will keep things balanced.
This changes the xp from the craft. There are only two reasons anyone would be asking to grind cut and polished gems: because the gem is useless to them and the dust isn't, or because they want to get more Gem Crafting xp without spending the money for polishing oil. Some gem dusts are used as ingredients in other craft recipes. Currently, if you need gem dust for another recipe, you need a raw gem to crush. This is a low-xp operation, and possibly even a no-xp operation for a skilled Gemcrafter. Allowing the gem to be cut and polished first gives Gem Crafting xp for each step plus the extra gem dust from cutting rather than just a single, low-yield xp chance and the basic dust from the grinding.
Also, consider that the high-end gems currently give the automatic gem dust plus a single gem dust when the raw mineral is crushed successfully. Cutting and polishing a gem removes a lot of material, seen in-game as the change from a five pound rock to a no-weight gemstone. Crushing the raw mineral can be seen as removing the dirt and such from the mineral, then grinding down the entire amount of gemstone. A cut gem has far, far less material to grind. If a full-sized, uncut gem would yield two bags of dust, and cutting a gem would yield one bag of dust, how many cut or polished gems would be necessary to produce even a single pouch of gem dust? Even greenstone should take a handful of polished stones to produce one bag of dust.
Jilseponie Wyndon - 8/17/2006 2:19 AM
As for the wood, anyone can saw . . . so one bag isn't too bad in collecting when you are done.
Again, I would say anyone could make everyday sawdust, but only a skilled Woodcrafter could reliably make consistently-sized dust that would be needed for making paper on Layonara. Similarly, anyone could grind corn, but only a skilled Cook could reliably produce corn flour for enchanting purposes. It may seem crazy that things are like this, but try to imagine that the final product is something refined and "pure," made by someone who knows what is needed. A mage doesn't spend decades learning to manipulate the Weave only to toss in any old material component. It takes a finely ground gem dust in a properly measured "dose", not just the smashed remains from the anvil after Gork got tired and quit whacking.
It is important to remember that things that seem simple and insignificant cross over into other crafts as important ingredients. Plus, if you "dumb down" gem dust, sawdust, and flour so that anyone can make it, you eliminate some of the need for character interaction. The Enchanter no longer needs the Cook to make corn flour for those rods. The Scribe no longer needs the Woodcrafter to make sawdust for those scrolls.
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LoganGrimnar - 8/16/2006 10:36 PM
And you wouldent bother setting Greenstones, the dust isent used for anything anyways, that i can recall.. the metal, be it copper or anything, isent worth waisting to set a greenstone inless someone is buying it.
Well, you'd set greenstones for practice (crafting XP) if for no other reason. Besides, greenstone dust is VERY useful in alchemy -- it's used in Essence of Cure, which is the basis for the Cure XXX Wounds potions.
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Faldred - 8/17/2006 2:01 PM Well, you'd set greenstones for practice (crafting XP) if for no other reason. Besides, greenstone dust is VERY useful in alchemy -- it's used in Essence of Cure, which is the basis for the Cure XXX Wounds potions.
I knew greenstone was usefull for something. Now I'm going to ask someone ingame and ic what is needed for potions like that and then I'll get it for them so that they can make it for my character. I know just who to talk to. Oh by the way. I gor rid of those cut gems I couldn't use anymore. hureee for pawn shops. not the best option but the only one I knew about.
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Dorganath - 8/16/2006 7:56 AM Donate the gems to the deity of your choice?
Sell them to the pawns?
Sell them to enchanters/infusers?
*shrugs*
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By rights, if you don't have a diety of choice, it'd probably be apropos to donate the gems to Beryl. Goodness knows, she ought to appreciate it.. and perhaps watch over you in your next crafting attempt.
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I've been fairly silent on this, but I am going to speak up about something that may seem fairly minor, but which does reflect an overall larger view of the implications of this suggestion.
Really, there's only one main issue here: no other craft allows a person to take finished or semi-finished, non-defective goods and convert them into some form of raw CNR. Sawdust cannot be made from finished staves and such that no one wanted, finished armor and weapons can't be melted back down into ingots, and so forth. But if we add the ability to grind up cut or fine gems, this is exactly what we'd be doing....and I'm pretty certain that other crafts would want something similar.
But essentially, that is exactly what you are asking for here. When you craft, you make certain decisions about what you should make with the resources you have. One cannot take a form of intermediate or final CNR and transform it into another. You decide what to do with your resource and that's the track you need to follow.
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Dorganath - 8/17/2006 1:06 PM I've been fairly silent on this, but I am going to speak up about something that may seem fairly minor, but which does reflect an overall larger view of the implications of this suggestion.
Really, there's only one main issue here: no other craft allows a person to take finished or semi-finished, non-defective goods and convert them into some form of raw CNR. Sawdust cannot be made from finished staves and such that no one wanted, finished armor and weapons can't be melted back down into ingots, and so forth. But if we add the ability to grind up cut or fine gems, this is exactly what we'd be doing....and I'm pretty certain that other crafts would want something similar.
But essentially, that is exactly what you are asking for here. When you craft, you make certain decisions about what you should make with the resources you have. One cannot take a form of intermediate or final CNR and transform it into another. You decide what to do with your resource and that's the track you need to follow.
I agree. And for gem crafters, with the exception of the final setting step, they'll always get at least a byproduct at any stage of crafting, so they're generally ahead of the game anyway.
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No, Faldred. At least polishing greenstone (which gods know I've done enough of) you don't get any more dust. You only get dust for cutting it.
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Dorganath - 8/17/2006 1:06 PM I've been fairly silent on this, but I am going to speak up about something that may seem fairly minor, but which does reflect an overall larger view of the implications of this suggestion.
Really, there's only one main issue here: no other craft allows a person to take finished or semi-finished, non-defective goods and convert them into some form of raw CNR. Sawdust cannot be made from finished staves and such that no one wanted, finished armor and weapons can't be melted back down into ingots, and so forth. But if we add the ability to grind up cut or fine gems, this is exactly what we'd be doing....and I'm pretty certain that other crafts would want something similar.
But essentially, that is exactly what you are asking for here. When you craft, you make certain decisions about what you should make with the resources you have. One cannot take a form of intermediate or final CNR and transform it into another. You decide what to do with your resource and that's the track you need to follow.
There is one craft that you can take your failure and actualy return the product into its original stat and it is tinkering for arrowheads. But that is with Failures. Although... for any of you who has done some rl equivalent of IG smelting ( i did for school project) you can actualy take any kind of metal even those that are combined and refurnase it. depending of the heat the metal will melt and the diferent metla will float untop of one of each other from heavier to lighter like oil floats over water. This is also how gold is purified. but again this is Rp against RL but it would be logical to be able to do it.
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 8/17/2006 6:34 PM No, Faldred. At least polishing greenstone (which gods know I've done enough of) you don't get any more dust. You only get dust for cutting it.
I think you misread me -- I said you'd get at least a byproduct at every stage:Cutting: Dust (always) and cut stones (on success)
Polishing: Fine stones (on success) or flawed stones (on failure)
Grinding: Dust (always) and more dust (on success)
Setting: Ring/Amulet/etc. (on success) or nothing (on failure)
[/list]Only the "Setting" stage can provide you with nothing -- every other stage always provides either improved CNR, a byproduct, or both.
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Hellblazer - 8/18/2006 3:35 AM There is one craft that you can take your failure and actualy return the product into its original stat and it is tinkering for arrowheads. But that is with Failures. Although... for any of you who has done some rl equivalent of IG smelting ( i did for school project) you can actualy take any kind of metal even those that are combined and refurnase it. depending of the heat the metal will melt and the diferent metla will float untop of one of each other from heavier to lighter like oil floats over water. This is also how gold is purified. but again this is Rp against RL but it would be logical to be able to do it.
I'm aware of that, actually. Note that I included "non-defective" in my list of qualifiers. Failed arrowheads return mangled metal (and there are other crafts which do this as well), but it is still a failure, and not a finished product. You cannot smelt down finished arrowheads. Cut and fine gems are finished...or at least intermediate products, and not failed crafting attempts.
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aye like i said only your failiures.