The World of Layonara
NWN Discussions and Suggestions => CNR Suggestions/Discussion => Topic started by: jonnytheshirt on January 31, 2005, 12:13:00 pm
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I may have spotted this before -
what is the stance on druids with weapon/woodcrafting?
By default they cannot use the necessary implements for the gathering of raw materials. Granted a druid laying waste to a forest sounds a bit OOC, however we assume all resources are renewable and you just dont find fallen branches. the creed being take only what you need - after all there are many types of druid, somebody has to make their staffs/spears/cudgels/armour etc..?
So is plain out of the question stick to alchemy and a bit of tailoring. baking and brewing -or is it within reason to take a martial feat and take up the axe and pick for arrows etc. Or perhaps the druid is just plained banned from heaving any axe at all?
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I think this is one of those instances where we run game mechanics up against creeds.
Someon a while back posted that their druid character would "gather" fallen branches, but because of the mechanics of Layonara, he still had to use an axe to do that.
It's somewhat ludicrous to expect a druid to use what nature provides to fashion staves, clubs and whatnot without being able to "gather" the wood because of some bit about weapon feats. That's a very real disconnect between the "reality" of the setting and the restrictions of the game mechanics themselves.
So.....I would say that as long as a druid does not actually use the axe as a weapon, there is a rational and justifyable reason (though meta-gamed to some extent) to take that weapon feat and equip an axe in order to harvest...er...gather wood.
That said, the "take only what you need" philosophy would seem to be at odds with the necessity of gathering a LOT of wood to become proficient at crafting one's own staves and clubs....something it seems that druids would be good at anyway. A workaround would be to harvest your wood, then take it to an experienced woodcrafter. Again, game mechanics vs. how it should really work.
Kind of reversing this logic, elven druids, though they automatically get the feat to use bows, should not actually ever equip a bow as a weapon, because it flies in the face of their oaths.
I suppose the important thing to keep in mind is that this is an RP server, and as such, many things are RPed that aren't really possible within the restrictions of the game engine and/or the Layonara system. If you can find a way to reconcile the gathering of wood (seen in-game as chopping down a tree), then fly with it.
Anyone more "official" want to chime in?
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Pretty much what Dorganath stated. Just keep it reasonable and within RP limits of a Druid and it will be fine. We are here to have fun after all...but we also need to always remember RP (classes, races, alignments, deities etc.)
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ok thanks -
my druid does use a bow sometimes however, being a follower of Kithairien the great hunter, you cant really throw the spear, just mini ones via a bow - but if this is deemed OOC please note.
good stuff i really do agree woodworking is certainly a druidish art. just got to geta a martial feat then.
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jonnytheshirt - 1/31/2005 3:29 PM
ok thanks -
my druid does use a bow sometimes however, being a follower of Kithairien the great hunter, you cant really throw the spear, just mini ones via a bow - but if this is deemed OOC please note.
good stuff i really do agree woodworking is certainly a druidish art. just got to geta a martial feat then.
The problem here is that your druid is a druid above all else, even the dogma of your chosen diety. Bows as weapons are a big no-no to druids. If you want a missile weapon, use a sling.
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I may be totally off on it but isn't it forbidden after going druid to take any more weapon feats?
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Yep that is the discussion..the problem being that game mechanicss prevent access to Crafts - the subject being that of woodcraft in particular see above.
So is it impossible to take a feat in martial weapons?
"Most layonarans have a stereotypical image of druids: druids are nature loving elven defenders of forest and worshippers of Katia. ..Do not be fooled , druids are an extraordinarily diverse group"..from the ol Layo hande booke.
Part of the discussion is therefore thinking outside the box and RP..if martial is possible the char will only wield an axe for chopping wood and not be wandering around with greatswords and Dwarven Shield axes of Death.
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Actually I don't agree with elven druids not being able to use bows. The fact is that there are many types of druid as the handbook states (I won't quote it here as the passage is too long and we all have a copy of the handbook right? :D ) needless to say that a druid who is concentrated on say a marine habitat or in the case of my druid a desert one will not have the same regard for trees as say a druid who's habitat is a forest. It is true that he will revere them as a living thing but consider this; if a druid cannot use a bow as it comes from a tree which is a living thing how then can he wear leather armour or use a wooden shield, or use any weapon at all that is in NWN? All of these things come from living things in this game...either plants or animals. If this rule was enforced then we're about to see a lot of druids frolicking naked in the streets of Hlint I think :D
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From the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook, Page 34:
"Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, halfspear, longspear, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear and sling. Their spiritual oaths prohibit them from using weapons other than these."
Any questions? ;)
So it's not a matter of desert druids having more or less regard for trees, or elves being naturally able to wield bows. It has to do with the oaths of druids.
Wood isn't the problem. See clubs, spears, staves, etc. The problem is the weapon.
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agreed, and note that the v3.5 Player's Handbook has the same list.
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*wonders who's going to tell Rhizome the High Druid of Sielwood not to use his Yew Compound Bow and just laughs*
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aye i didnt want to get in the druid bow thing i only hinted with my quote..
I agree with steve; rules there to be interpreted ;clerics now have weapons favoured by faith where as using anything other than a mace was a holy sin before ..though maces hurt just as much.
a druid having used bows much in her tribe suddenly says oh I must use a sling..that deosnt make much sense, even less than the mages wandering around in full battle helms and great big swords.
I agree with leathar above: rules are there to be worked with as long as RP'ed correctly.
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Hey...I'm just quoting the rules. And according to the rules, a druid's oaths are very specific and very strict. Breaking those oaths results in a loss of druidic powers.
3rd Edition allows for much greater flexibility in the druid class. Prior to 3rd Ed., Druids HAD to be True Neutral in alignment. Now they can be any Neutral. And while the rules give a bonus racial bow feat to elves, other rules say elven druids cannot use those bows.
But in the end, if the GM allows it (or in Layo, if the GM team and "Big L" allow it) then have at it.
If they don't, it's quite pointless to argue whether or not the druid grew up using the bow or not. Once the oaths are taken, that's it. The druid's weapons aren't "prefered" like the clerics in Layo according to the diety's dogma. Technically, the druid's weapons are explicitly restricted to those few weapons.
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Version 3.5 of the D&D rules has removed the part about "spiritual oaths prohibit them from using weapons other than these". In fact, under current D&D rules Druids can use any weapon that the become proficient in (Elveen druids using bows is accepted as standard). The problem with the NWN engine is that Druids don't even seem to be offered the choice. My druid just recently gained a new level and I wanted to be able to use simple weapons like the axe for wood chopping (i.e. gathering the fallen timber). I couldn't take Simple or Martial Weapon Profiency because that option was just not offered. :-(
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Brutoss - 2/6/2005 11:28 PM
Version 3.5 of the D&D rules has removed the part about "spiritual oaths prohibit them from using weapons other than these". In fact, under current D&D rules Druids can use any weapon that the become proficient in (Elveen druids using bows is accepted as standard). The problem with the NWN engine is that Druids don't even seem to be offered the choice. My druid just recently gained a new level and I wanted to be able to use simple weapons like the axe for wood chopping (i.e. gathering the fallen timber). I couldn't take Simple or Martial Weapon Profiency because that option was just not offered. :-(
NWN is not 3.5. It's 3.0-ish.
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what i find odd is that druids are offered the armor proficiencies but not the weapon ones, but then thats just weird in my oppinion
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Perhaps it is the continuing tranmission of media to the now digital format, less attention is paid to detail cause you dont have spend hours rolling dice over something; when your treasured +1 was relished as you rolled a 12 and then could claim aha +1 hey thats thirteen!..well dunno if anybody is following me here..
but anyhows its all in the background and happens quicker, and it seems to me now it simplifies the characters, I dont see as much of a difference between classes as in P&P..so you wear studded leather..well if you have 18 dex as many will do you if thats the plan you'll still get as good ac as full plate with no dex bonuse..youre a mage...i see many mages tearing headlong into full battle wielding swords spelled up to the hilt with stoneskin and equipped to death with all sorts of stuff.
on the other hand you have some RP based characters that are simply technically weak ( the nwn combat engine does not make any concessions for weak characters IMO there are simply those who can fight and those who generally avoid it, as no matter what they have little advantage - theres little room for clever P&P like ideas ). A highlighted char here would be that excellent old lady Elindra true RP an dtop notch.
so before even I loose track of what Im trying to say - for me the character idea, image (in my mind at least) is whats most important and with that the RP aspect comes as each little bit adds up..c
sense should prevail..considering powergaming is a direct result of taking advantage of the rules, Rules should not be getting in the way of simple char RP aspects.NWN is only the medium.
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Playing a druid myself, it would be nice if wood crafting included bone. The premise to a druid is that nothing should go to waste. Thus I could see a druid having a craft that made use of ever type of plant, animal, element and nature. A druid could use an iron rod, but not one that has been sharpened. Though you could enchant the rod to have flame, be cold or what have you.
It also depends on where your druid comes from, from whatever realm or part of Layonara. It all comes down to what the druid believes is their role in nature.
I am finding the best course, is stick to the natural weapons. Even the weapons provided for by other animals is the best course. It would e great if there was slicer beetles, as that would give a druid a natural vorpal blade. Sword spiders are another such animal that give a druid a weapon that would be quite nasty.
I often wondered about such things for the druid, as they should be able to use what ever weapons they can fashion from the remains of animals.
Shark-tooth sword = fishing, woodcraft, leathercraft
Jade Mace = has a moh of 5.5 to 6.5, would make short work of piece of plate mail, splinter splint mail, crush the individual rings of ring mail. My reasoning for this, the chinese used to use it for blacksmithing, for their hammers and anvils.
crystal darts = gem crafting, not only would they be like shards, they could also be made hollow to have a poison. Probably you would need exotic weapon feat, as the delivery would have to be a blowgun.
As a druid, you need to look where others miss, and as a player of a druid, you have to just hope that such creativity was written into the game mechanics.
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I should have commented on this long ago, when the discussion was more active and people might have actually read what I'm writing. Thanks to the recent poster for bring it to my attention. This is one of the many posts that somehow slipped through my click "New" forum reading machine.
My opinion on this is that Layonara uses the NWN game engine because it is the best game engine currently available to do what we are trying to do. NWN is based on D&D, of course, in terms of the fundamental game play mechanics, though not entirely I understand. However, that does not mean that Layonara is D&D and that the rules of D&D apply to Layonara across the board.
When Layonara rules and conventions do align with D&D, it is specifically stated as such, as is the case with the planes, for example. However, the handbook is spefically tailored to Layonara and is thus the ultimate reference guide in terms of understanding and interpreting just about every aspect of our world. As such, in my opinion, the truly outstanding Layonara Handbook is the more approprate source for information regarding class, diety, and race based restrictions.
Thanks for reading.
Rhizome
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Komoda - 8/19/2005 3:56 PM
Playing a druid myself, it would be nice if wood crafting included bone. The premise to a druid is that nothing should go to waste. Thus I could see a druid having a craft that made use of ever type of plant, animal, element and nature. A druid could use an iron rod, but not one that has been sharpened. Though you could enchant the rod to have flame, be cold or what have you.
It also depends on where your druid comes from, from whatever realm or part of Layonara. It all comes down to what the druid believes is their role in nature.
I am finding the best course, is stick to the natural weapons. Even the weapons provided for by other animals is the best course. It would e great if there was slicer beetles, as that would give a druid a natural vorpal blade. Sword spiders are another such animal that give a druid a weapon that would be quite nasty.
I often wondered about such things for the druid, as they should be able to use what ever weapons they can fashion from the remains of animals.
Shark-tooth sword = fishing, woodcraft, leathercraft
Jade Mace = has a moh of 5.5 to 6.5, would make short work of piece of plate mail, splinter splint mail, crush the individual rings of ring mail. My reasoning for this, the chinese used to use it for blacksmithing, for their hammers and anvils.
crystal darts = gem crafting, not only would they be like shards, they could also be made hollow to have a poison. Probably you would need exotic weapon feat, as the delivery would have to be a blowgun.
As a druid, you need to look where others miss, and as a player of a druid, you have to just hope that such creativity was written into the game mechanics.
Komoda - Could you write up some ideas for natural armors/weapons? I like the ideas you put out and more natural armors/weapons may be added in the future, especially since some of the new subraces really need different options (ex. shark hide armor for sea elves.)
Basically if you could lay out your ideas listing base item type, and properties of each item, maybe a description and a suggestion of how they would be crafted. Anything will need to be approved and or tweaked before it would get put in, but some ideas would be helpful, and you seem to have thought a bit about this topic.
Keep in mind that blowguns probably wont get put in (as it would require creating a whole new class of weapon and ammunition) and anything Vorpal probably wont get put in.
-TV
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The limitations on weapon and armor types for druids in the Pen and Paper realm always irked me, as it is so black & white ridiculous that one would actually take an oath to use say, a scimitar instead of a longsword. Yes yes, maybe the scimitar looks more like a machette than a regular sword, it is still made of metal. Cannot wear metal armors? Why is he swinging a metal weapon then? whew... the head is spinning...
If anything, I would assume that a class who could speak to animals would forsake wearing leathers as barbaric and turn to metal instead... much more humane to make armor from something that doesn't beg for its life to you when you harvest it. Of course one could play devil's advocate and say that the druid is only harvesting the animals that his friends killed to make certain that they are not put to waste. If I was hanging out with my friend Pelordaes, and he decided to say... storm a shopping mall full of people and slaughter them for meat... would I be an any better a person by wearing their skin? More likely I would try to stop him or cease any friendship with him, having heard their screams in my own language.
In my opinion, druids should be able to wear and use whatever they can so long as they have a valid RP reason for it. Oaths are things to be done with watching deities, not the sanctity of nature which is everywhere and everything, whether it's animal, vegetable or mineral. D&D rulesets such as the one stated above in the Player's Handbook regarding proficiencies and oaths merely stereotype an entire class in large and do so with little logic or heed to variety. It is my belief that we should pay more attention to the overall character development of a druid and what he does to protect nature rather than haggle with absolutes and stereotypical tradition.
Of course this is the opinion of one who has taken too many philosophy classes. :)
of course a wise man said it 1st... "Just keep it reasonable and within RP limits of a Druid and it will be fine. We are here to have fun after all...but we also need to always remember RP (classes, races, alignments, deities etc.)"
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A quick note on the bow use by druids, bows were used for the purpose of making fire, it takes no great leap to figure out that the first bow was no doubt used for this very purpose and it was probably by accident while making a fire that the rod snapped back and struck a hunting dog.
I would think arrows made by either carbon hardening the points or using flint heads or obsidian heads would be more appropriate for druids.
What I did find is that with crafting, many of the equipment required for crafting, a character needs to have the feat: martial weapons.
eg. Poison Extractor is a mace
Found that if you are either a warrior or a cleric, crafting tools are easily accessed.
Anyone else it is very much more difficult, unless of course you become dual-classed as warrior or cleric/ druid.
How does one aquire the feat needed to use some of the crafting tools? without dual classing at 5th to a class that you have really no interest in adding to your character's set path.
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The not being able to use craft tools was quite problematic, especially if a druid wanted to gather some wood, since we can't equip the axe.
In an update or two ago, the Team made it so if you put a fire within a certain number of meters of a harvestable tree you would have the option of gathering wood.
I imagine something similar could be done for the other tools we cannot use. :)
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I would like to be able to use a poison extractor for my druid, it would not make him evil for using poison. As it is a natural weapon for all creatures, great and small, both a defensive and offensive weapon. Unfortunately, you require the feat: simple weapon, or you have to be of the rogue class to use it.
It would be nice, for my druid to be able to pack a bit of a punch to her use of darts.
Hollow darts to deliver either venom or poison, would be an asset to any druid, that really has to rely on a missile type weapon to deliver their attacks. Druids do not last long going toe to toe in melee.
Do not know if this is the place for such a posting, would not be logical for druids to have access to weapons that are either of natural occurence (animal parts) or found in a farmer's tool shed?
Still, bone and stone would be nice crafting materials.
And, I can only think of one wood that would require a quest for any druid worth their weight. That would be ironwood, and one would need to go where a druid would find not only lava flows, but a petrified forest. Druids should not like killing of anything living, monster or otherwise.
This is only a suggestion, there is but one craft that should be druid specific, to make up for the lack of weapon choices, domestic crafting. It would be a nice one, as animal empathy could be used in conjunction with this particular craft, for the purposes of animal husbandry. Also the cultivation of trees felled by those seeking the branches of various woods for weapon crafting. It could laso include the one aspect of the druid class that is missing and probably the most important, the druids creation of his own grove, glade, cairn or what have you.
I was disappointed, not knowing the mechanics of the game Layonara, that when a warrior felled an oak and stripped it of all its branches. Tree of course disappearing, the remains did not include seeds.
Domestic crafting would be a nice craft, as that would allow with the animal empathy, a druid the chance to lure wild animals back to their grove, pair them up and carry out the craft of husbandry. Personally, the animal companion you choose at first level, could be the animal the druid chooses for domestic crafting.
Imagine the druid that chooses spider as a companion, and has to go to the woods where spiders can be found and try to lure one back to his grove for domestication, a very tricky endeavor. More risk involved than a gabble full of goblins.
Just some thoughts for CNR.