Author Topic: Feats required for CNR harvesting items (Read 578 times)

regnus · « **on:** May 16, 2005, 06:54:00 am »

This may have been suggested before but I couldnt find it in a search. Is there a way to make the CNR harvesting items useable without weapon feats? For instance, my bard does not have the feat to allow me to use an axe. Therefore I cannot harvest wood. I figure I should be able to handle an axe well enough to chop a tree but I would not be able to fight with it.

Talan Va'lash · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2005, 11:51:00 am »

The problem with this, game mechanics wise, is that you cant just change what proficiency a weapon requires in the toolset.

You could create a handaxe that grants the martial proficiency... but, that doesnt work because you wouldnt be granted the feat untill you equiped it, and you cant equip it without the feat. hehe its rather humorous acctually.

Brutoss · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2005, 08:14:00 pm »

Could you have something like "Gloves of the Woodsman" that provide martial weapon proficiency (axe)?

Just an idea.

Brutoss.

Talan Va'lash · « **Reply #3 on:** May 19, 2005, 12:38:00 pm »

Yes. But in NWN all weapons in each proficiency are covered by the same feat.

i.e. gloves that give the martial weapon profiency would allow you to use the longsword, greatsword, warhammer, greataxe, etc. along with the handaxe.

If such gloves were available, it would have to be on the honor system that people would not exploit them by using them in combat for the feat.

I suppose this could be cut down if the gloves had the following properties:

Bonus Feat: Martial weapon proficiency
Decreased AC: -10 Deflection

Or something like that. Basically, make them so bad for combat no one would ever use them in such a manner.

But, I'm not even sure such a solution would be desirable. Such a work around would mean that wizard/bards and other non-combat type classes would be able to chop trees (which is pretty reasonable that they could do) and mine ore (which i'm not sure they should be able to do.)

So, yes, its possible. I don't really think it should be done.

If it is decided that non-combat classes should be able to chop trees, what should probably be done is to find a simple proficiency weapon that has a custom appearance that looks enough like an axe and use that as the woodcutters axe, or another type of axe, perhaps less effective than the martial one. That way they would be able to chop trees, but still not mine ore.

regnus · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2005, 01:46:00 pm »

Are daggers or something available to all classes? Couldnt you make it look like an ax like you are saying and let all use it? That way it is limited to wood chopping and not mining. I agree that non-combat classes would have a hard time mining but chopping a tree should be available in my opinion.

lonnarin · « **Reply #5 on:** May 21, 2005, 02:01:00 pm »

I think an item that gave martial weapon proficiency wouldn't be too overly unbalancing. Just make the lvl req around 8-12 or so... could wind up being a great seller!

Variable · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2005, 03:53:00 pm »

I don't think that a wizard or bard would actually be able to use a Pick or even a Handaxe without speacial training which is represented by the feat.

regnus · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2005, 05:00:00 pm »

I disagree there. I wouldnt necessarily call myself a musician but can dabble a but on the guitar. By trade I am a network engineer. Yet, I can grab an ax and go out into my back yard and cut down a tree. Not the biggest tree out there, but I can use it to chop wood. I would not however be able to use it in combat. That is all I am saying. I dont think the feat should be given. I think if there is a way to modify a dagger say to look like an ax then that would work. I do agree with you on the pick though. That would require training and could be explained by the feat.

ZeroVega · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2005, 07:29:00 pm »

Few things I'll say. First is they're talkin about making a magical item (gloves, rings, ect) that give the martial feat. That is to say the magical item is basicly temporarily giving you the knowledge and skill to use the weapon. As for needing special training to use a pick or axe to mine or chop wood, I have to say that's way off. I've never picked up an axe in my life, however I sure know how to swing one. I'm not much for mining, but heck I know how to swing a sledge hammer or pick (once made a snowball 6feet in diameter and then busted it in half with an 8lb sledge).
I'd say if anything, make a strength requirement. Ie: Must have 12 Str to use. Gives Weapon Feat Martial and perhaps a movement speed decrease -50% or something. Dunno really, however I agree with Talan that it should have a drawback. We do want it to be realistic and I suppose in most cases that'd mean making sure the gloves wouldn't be abused, however let's face it, we're all human, and the track record shows that there will be people who the honor system doesn't work on. Making something insane like -10 Dodge AC, would let basicly scream to people, don't even think about exploiting your ticket to mine.
That being said, I kinda like things the way they are. Forces me to pay people for sawdust or metals. I don't think I'd have gotten to travel with Duur (watched that nasty giant blow more gas than a meat packing plant) if I hadn't needed the dust. And he probably would have gone broke looking for a nice enchantment had I not payed him with one. It all works out, and adds more spice to the world.

Leanthar · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2005, 07:34:00 pm »

Well, I think we all understand that anybody can use anything in RL (however sucky)... but we need to balance the game out.. and nwn places natural limiations on things that help us with the balance.

Talan Va'lash · « **Reply #10 on:** May 21, 2005, 07:54:00 pm »

Maybe this is a bit old, but I remember the PnP rule being, anyone can use any weapon but you get a -4 penalty to hit for non-proficiency. I like that much better than the way it is in NWN.

Dalbarhedi · « **Reply #11 on:** June 22, 2005, 02:22:00 pm »

Yeah, I agree. Anyone can pick up a sword and attempt to swing it at someone, provided they are strong enough to lift it. They might even hit the target, too. Hence the -4 (though personally, I think the minus should be higher, but -4 is the penalty limit for almost everything)

PsychicToaster · « **Reply #12 on:** July 29, 2005, 04:57:00 pm »

What about gloves that give the martial feat and have huge penalties, thus making them wholly undesireable to exploit for combat? AC penalties maybe? 100% vulnerability to piercing/bludgeoning/slashing?

General_Ski · « **Reply #13 on:** July 29, 2005, 05:17:00 pm »

Umm. No. You pick up a sword and swing it. And the target blocks and swings back and you are dead. 99.9% of the time, if you don't know what you are doing with that sword. -10 dodge and deflection ac, umm yeah, with wizards and others who have spell abilities, they'd buff it up to 0 in no time. You want to be a smith? Gotta know how to wield that hammer.

Either waste a feat or get 5 fighter levels. Gooed enough penalty. No freebees. So to speak, character development. Regular wizard hasn't and doesn't touch an axe with his life.. Wizard is a scholar. Cleric does not either, he is the D&D version of Red Cross with some offensive capabilities.
You wanna chop wood and rock? Well you have tohave experience in manual labor. That's what the martial weapons feat or fighter levels are all about, you get that menial experience. Good for rp, good for the world.

In real life, you try to do an experiment in a chemical lab without knowing what you are doing or not following certain safety procedures, you'll blow yourself and or others up or burn the building down around your ears. That's why fighters and non-wizard/cleric types can't scribe. Nor enchant.

I don't see people with fighter characters complaining about it. Although no feat will grant them that ability.
So I personally do not see any reason whatsoever why anything in the CNR system should be changed. All you have to do is get the martial weapons feat. Good for you, good for rp, good for the game.

Zhofe · « **Reply #14 on:** July 29, 2005, 05:34:00 pm »

I'm a fighter, and I am pretty sure I can enchant ...

just can't scribe, and that only because I don't know any spells. If it were possible to scribe non-magic stuff, I could do it in a hearbeat. I believe of all the tradeskills, instrument crafting is the only one actully restricted by class.

General_Ski · « **Reply #15 on:** July 29, 2005, 05:38:00 pm »

Yeah. You can enchant. But not half as well as a wizard or a sorcerer. And you can't scribe you'd need wizards or sorcerer or bard/rogue levels for that. So... They need martial weapons feat for picks/axes and hammers. Fair trade off.

Variable · « **Reply #16 on:** July 29, 2005, 05:41:00 pm »

this discussion is not about whether or not the CNR system should be changed.

It would be good if there was a pair of gloves that gave martial feat. I like the idea of AC penaties. And wizards could not exploit it because their attack is so low that they would not be able to hit or damage the Ore. Also in PnP a character could use a weapon when he didn't have the feat with a -4 penalty.

Also people with no training could use an axe or pick. I can use a ax but i am not proficient by any means.

General_Ski · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2005, 05:43:00 pm »

Well it's the same as asking for a pair of gloves that would grant use magic item skill. Come on.

Edit: Or why not a pair of gloves that would grant ambidexterity and two handed fighting?
Given how hard exceptional gloves of fury are to obtain, all these should be at least 100000 gp in price.. Since all they are is power gaming and not rp.

Zhofe · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2005, 05:53:00 pm »

If a wizard wants wood, he can use the foraging feature that was added to the CNR system. Really the only thing he can't do (and this is without wasting a feat mind you, ANY class can take the martial proficiency feat) is mine ore.

Really, there is no issue here. If a wizard needs ore, he needs a group. He will be cut to tiny pieces by the enemies guarding most deposits anyway ... If he won't because of spells, then the gloves even with the penalties are then exploitable, because the wizard can counter it.

You can take the feat, or ask a friend to mine for you, and really, asking a friendis FAR better because even with the feat your attack bonus and carying weight are so low that it will take you a half hour to get 4 nuggets which will have you heavily encumbered.

If any sort of item like this is put in, then I petition that some non-magical items be added to scribing and that the bard requirement be lifted from instrument crafting, just to make everything fair. Non magical items for scribing could be, for instance, books, which requre paper (from cooking) and gem dust and such and which may give stat bonuses like non-magical rings do, for instance, a bonus to lore, or spellcraft, or something similar.

General_Ski · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2005, 05:59:00 pm »

I strongly recommend against any such changes, which in my view blur the differences between character classes in non-combat rp.

Edited: And in combat as well, I mean it will be nasty having wizards running around with huge two handed swords, enchanted into oblivion and who cares about penaltios if on hit that thing will dish out 100 to 120 damage depending on how they buff themselves, especially if used out of improved invisibility, where they will still have concealment. I mean, if you want to do that, get martial weapons feat and lose a wizard feat.. It's a trade off.