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Author Topic: Iron is now scuicide  (Read 2601 times)

Hellblazer

Iron is now scuicide
« on: November 19, 2007, 04:23:34 pm »
Yep I know the title is strong, but unless you are paired with 10+ people, or you are a super powerful epic, this is what it is now.

Haven even for an epic like Q is piratically not doable, and Iron hills.. well I have went there with Krys and Clarissa, and seeing how long ( a good five minute of fighting where Clarissa almost died twice, and yes I was dead after only 20 seconds) it took those two to deal with the spawn there, i'd say its suicide.

Now seeing that Iron is the third metal needed in any metal craft, I find that to be very harsh on the people who are learning to smelt or craft armor or weapons.

Might be that the spawns should be rethought just a little.
 
The following users thanked this post: Drizzlin

Pibemanden

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2007, 04:29:51 pm »
The problem is that if you bring a mage of eqvivalent level to the Hills at least you will find it way easier. Sure it is hard for fighters and it has always been hard for fighters to get resources but that is where the mage or cleric or even a bard comes to save the day by giving people an edge. Another factor was that you were fighting level 27-28 spawns there, they are not friendly to say the least and in Haven you had Quantum to up the challenge a fair bit, I know that might seem very unfair when you are standing but the spawns are quite balanced to a balanced party.
 

Lynn1020

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2007, 04:38:45 pm »
Yea I have to agree with Pibemanden.  I have taken my cleric with one fighter (I think both were lvl 11 or 12 then) all the way down Haven and back out.  Now it wasn't easy but we did get it done.. even with a bit of rp in there.  We also went to  Iron Hills with a group a few times.. but once again we were all around the same lvl.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2007, 04:38:46 pm »
actually loranin, a few weeks after v3 came online. I went with both rain (level 18 multi-classed but still higher mage) and Lex (level 15 cleric, when he had power) down in haven on two separate occasion, with Kyle (level 16 at the time) Jako (don't remember his level but near 14 i think) Dalan (Was level 13 or 14 at the time I think) and Ferrit (who was level 19)

It was already touch and go with our levels and spells to supply it. Now try to imagine the people with lower levels than those, with cleric and mage lower levels than those trying to get the ore they need to -learn-.

Q is a cleric and is level 24 and even him tells me it's almost impossible for him to do that. And when even Barion rp refusing to go....

if I remember correctly West is supposed to be aimed to levels  around 8-10.

Pibemanden

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2007, 04:47:10 pm »
It is geared towards groups of people around level 8-10, there might be something that a group way below a high level can handle that the high level can't. Those areas are rather hard but then again there has to be some challenges, I know that Haven and Iron Hills are amoung the hardest places, but the CR at Iron Hills are around 16-18ish as far as I remember while Haven is 12ish or something, the problem is that casters are severely hurt in Haven because they can't rest down there so damage spells and other oneshots should actually outweight buffing. And well again it is very hard to travel in parties with a huge level gap, I don't know what you are having trouble with specifically but I can say that while it is hard it is far from impossible.
 

lonnarin

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2007, 04:51:15 pm »
Ore Hills is far easier than Haven, and my 18th lvl dwarven defender gets around 160xp a pop for the monsters there, and they're a good fight.  Now sure this is on a higher level spawn, but the lower level one that gives him 1xp each tends to kill him.

I agree that Haven's mines are a little bit overpowered for the cnr provided.  We took a party of 8 various 7-12lvl people and were smoked quickly, using the most paranoid of tactics.   Somethings wrong when an 18th level dwarf fears a cave designed for 8-10.  Bjorn won't set foot in there... it's off to Dregar to mine for him!

On that note, I might just start announcing some treks to Dalanthar on a regular basis, seeing as how the iron workers are starving to death. ;)
 

Hellblazer

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2007, 04:57:37 pm »
Okay i think I will demonstrate it an other way. It is in no mean an approval of the tactics but it sure will give a better example. Do you find it -normal- that someone would be able to solo the whole fog and desert for minerals that are of a higher cr than in haven, but isn't able to do so in haven where the cr of the minerals an ore are by far lower?

I'm not saying it should be doable while soloing, but there is a good difference in the monsters Cr on central and the one on mistone. On central which the place has even gotten stronger due to combining both east and central together, should not be easier for one player to do than any place on minstone.

I hope this illustrate better how difficult this place has become to -low- levels (what I consider under level 10)

Now with this, I see that a lot of people will simply stop going into those areas to get the iron they need. err its the only two places with enough veins to be worth it, and either they will try to max out on platinum which is easier to get even though the cr for that should be higher, or people will simply lose interest in smelting or crafting armor and weapons when they hit that wall. Which in the end would be rather a very big waste of effort on the team.

Grid Blader

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2007, 04:59:30 pm »
Granted, When I take Q I only go by myself.  Becouse of the fear of loseing to many people but I have tryed to do it in a little party with my mage one fighter and a cleric.  We did not make it very far.  I can see Rain's though on the matter.  Me personaly, I would reather go for sapphires against the trolls then go down in to haven.
 

jrizz

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2007, 04:59:56 pm »
Wren 20 level barb/fighter (not a really good build) can do haven top to bottom. I have seen small parties of 7 to 10th level do it as well. Sure it is harder then it used to be but it is still doable enough to get the iron needed. IMHO.
 

Acacea

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2007, 05:09:56 pm »
I thought Haven was no longer intended to be the level-appropriate source of iron on West? Ie I thought it was available elsewhere to account for the upping in danger of Haven. Considering how many of these threads popped up after V3 talking about deathtrap Haven, and the responses, it seemed like the implication was always "look elsewhere." Isn't there iron elsewhere?
 

Hellblazer

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2007, 05:14:14 pm »
It is as far as I know the only place to still get Iron, the other place I think might have one or two vein is the mountain past storan's crypts, and I can tell you that it is as difficult if not more than haven.

osxmallard

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2007, 05:14:41 pm »
Acacea is correct.  There are other sources of iron on the West server.


Edit: Removed additional comment
 

Pibemanden

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2007, 05:23:43 pm »
Hellblazer, I just checked the place you spoke of because I wasn't sure if there was iron. I would say that if you say that the said character can solo the desert and forest giants this place shouldn't be all that hard compared to that. It should at least be easier than Haven.
 

Hellblazer

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2007, 05:34:15 pm »
It didn't seem easier when the party i was in got decimated *grins*, but then again I haven't gone back since to try again.

On an other note, if there is an other places than the two mention here above, and since most of the old timers I talked to don't know the "knew place" it might be good that an event be created to get that place known outside of the gm's

Dorganath

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2007, 05:37:29 pm »
Quote from: Acacea
I thought Haven was no longer intended to be the level-appropriate source of iron on West? Ie I thought it was available elsewhere to account for the upping in danger of Haven. Considering how many of these threads popped up after V3 talking about deathtrap Haven, and the responses, it seemed like the implication was always "look elsewhere." Isn't there iron elsewhere?

Yeah, pretty much correct there, Acacea.  Haven changed because of in-game events, which have been talked about at length elsewhere.  Yes it's more difficult, yes it's above the "typical" threat level for West, but it is hardly not unique in that regard.  The 1-10 level guideline for West is just that...a guideline.  It is not a hard-and-fast rule, and it should not be expected that everywhere on West will be appropriate for any arbitrary mix of 1-10 level characters.

Part of the balancing efforts in V3 was to tweak CNR somewhat to slow down the rush-to-crafting-levels that some people seem to seek and to further encourage the concept of balanced parties.  There's nothing that says someone needs to be climbing the crafting rosters and be able to craft half of the available recipes at 50% or greater by character level 10, yet some seem to do just that.  Moving things around a bit, we hoped to slow or delay some of the usual CNR grinding.  

As has been mentioned, having a very high-level character in the party will generally increase the threat level greatly, especially if the encounters don't max out in the usual level.  This is to provide a scalable threat and challenge while, as mentioned before, encouraging a balanced party and discouraging the "bring an epic and hide behind him/her" tactic.

I'm not saying that was the plan, but there are mechanical and balance reasons for things being in the state they are.
 

Tanman

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2007, 05:38:48 pm »
Um, not all GMs know it because of they can cruise around. I don't know much crafting and I don't know where they are, nor do I want to find out that way. I don't think its the teams responsibility to show you where the places are to find CnR. Players (including the team) are supposed to find that out IC, and that constitutes a lot of fun in Layonara, which is exploring new places.
 

Dorganath

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2007, 05:44:20 pm »
Quote from: Hellblazer
It didn't seem easier when the party i was in got decimated *grins*, but then again I haven't gone back since to try again.

On an other note, if there is an other places than the two mention here above, and since most of the old timers I talked to don't know the "knew place" it might be good that an event be created to get that place known outside of the gm's

I'm not sure I like the implication here.

I am not even really sure where this other source of iron is on West, mostly because I haven't cared enough to look in any capacity. Sure I could look, but I think I'm a good example of the idea that not all GMs know where all the CNR is just because they're GMs.  There's no list in the GM forums of where CNR is located.  I even am unsure of the location of a lot of plants and things in V3, since a lot of areas were reordered and such.

As for events...Isn't that part of the purpose of exploration?
 

Hellblazer

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2007, 05:46:04 pm »
Quote from: Tanman
Um, not all GMs know it because of they can cruise around. I don't know much crafting and I don't know where they are, nor do I want to find out that way. I don't think its the teams responsibility to show you where the places are to find CnR. Players (including the team) are supposed to find that out IC, and that constitutes a lot of fun in Layonara, which is exploring new places.

re-read my post, did I say the team should make the event?

Quote from: Dorganath
I'm not sure I like the implication here.

I am not even really sure where this other source of iron is on West, mostly because I haven't cared enough to look in any capacity. Sure I could look, but I think I'm a good example of the idea that not all GMs know where all the CNR is just because they're GMs. There's no list in the GM forums of where CNR is located. I even am unsure of the location of a lot of plants and things in V3, since a lot of areas were reordered and such.

As for events...Isn't that part of the purpose of exploration?

Yes it is which is why I have mention that an event could be created just for that. I didn't say that it should be Gm's that should create it.

Acacea

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2007, 05:48:29 pm »
The fact that some people don't know and don't look is actually why I posted this thread - http://forums.layonara.com/cnr-suggestions-discussion/114605-taking-cnr-out-old-locations.html - in response to the series of "Haven = deathtrap!" threads. People get locked in a mindset of "resource lap here here here start over" and when they get changed, start thinking of how to get them from the same place, instead of looking around. If anything the 'old timers' and higher level characters (not necessarily the same thing) including GMs are the ones who will MOST do this, because new players will be exploring other areas and are not necessarily predisposed to expecting certain things from certain places.

If the other sources are skimpy and/or too hard (subjective, Haven's old ogres likely could still kick Acacea's butt whereas some mid-level characters can solo most of West), then that is a different topic from "Haven is too hard for iron" because Haven was overmined and so on, and gained new, nastier inhabitants from a GM quest and is not intended to be of iron-level. Actually, I remember when the iron deposits were lessened in Haven as early as '05 because of overmining so it's not even a new theme ;)

Thanks for confirming that it exists elsewhere - because of the many earlier posts in response to the Haven threads, it seemed like if it was not available anywhere else it would have been a severe oversight/accident and not intentional.
 

Tanman

Re: Iron is now scuicide
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2007, 05:51:26 pm »
@Dorganath: Heh! I think I am in the same boat as you are as far as CnR goes. As for me I still get lost on Dregar!