Oil of sharpness

[Chrys Ellis]

I just managed to make my first oil of sharpness.  It was no easy task, but I heard it added keen to a weapon, so I thought it would be worth it.  Here's the ingredients:
[list=1]

• 2 essences of speed, which in themselves are not that easy to make.  Each essence takes 2 thistle leaves and 2 hops, which are not in the easiest of locales.
• 2 bags of mahogony sawdust
• 2 pear juices
• 1 ingot of adamantium

 In addition to this, the oil is the hardest thing to make as an alchemist.  I'm a 14th level alchemist, and with my stats maxed, I only had a 30% chance to make this thing.  I attempted 5, and only managed to make one.  To put things in perspective, the next most difficult thing to make is a level IV silver or titanium enhancement, and I would have a 70% chance to make that in the same instance.  After all this, the last thing I expected was that the keen would be...TEMPORARY!  Huh?
  Seriously, for the ingredients that go into this, and the extreme difficulty in making it, why is this only temporary?  Other things, like silver enhancements, add permanent bonuses to weapons, and they aren't nearly as difficult to make.  For what is involved in making this, the effects should really be permanent.  It was a bummer to finally make what should be the best thing an alchemist can make at this point, only to see this.
  If it's been decided that permanent keen is just too powerful, then please change the recipe.  As it stands, it's definitely not worth making it. 

[blonde]

Just to make a follow up. I was there with Xiao and i tested the oil. The duration of this effect is very short, maybe one or two battles. So i must say i agree with Xiao, this oil is simply not worth it, and was a big big dissapointment to make...took us quite some time to gather all the stuff for it.

[Filatus]

I think a permantly keen weapon is a bit overpowered. The spell keen edge has been powered down I think to rounds. Would be completely nuts if anyone, with lvl 14 alchemy of course, could get the permanent effect.

[Wintersheart]

While I agree that there inconsistencies in alchemy – including oil of sharpness - that could use adjusting I do not agree with making keen permanent. Oil of sharpness certainly appears “overpriced” and I agree it shouldn’t be the hardest task in alchemy, but…

There are other considerations to make. Alchemy allows non-spellcasters to prepare potions that emulate spells, this is major benefit in a low magic world. If the potions were powerful and easy to make there would be little need to bring clerics and mages, hence most potions require hard to get ingredients, have shorter duration and are less powerful.

Also keen is brilliant for making wonder combo’s. Add the right feats, high rate of attack and various bonuses and it shines. A permanent keen is simply over-powerful in the right (or wrong) hands and should/would raise the levels dramatically making it only available to very high level characters.

As I see it oil of sharpness should be easier to make, but not more so than you saved it for the most important battles.


Rolf

P.S. I think potion of clarity is even more overpriced *grins*

[Chrys Ellis]

Then either make the recipe even harder, and keep the effects permanent, or make it much easier, at least in terms of components, and keep the effects temporary. The way it is is just ridiculous

[Wintersheart]

I agree!

Reduce the difficulty by removing the adamantium ingot and make it easier to make.


Rolf

[Zhofe]

If it is easy to make, then you can make a huge batch and then have a permanent keen sword anyway simply because you have alot of them.

[Wintersheart]

It shouldnt be easy to make, but easier.

[PsychicToaster]

Making a large batch of anything, even cure potions, is not quick and easy.  While the creatures guarding the resources are easy enough, and its within say, ten screens of Hlint, its still time consuming due to resource spawn times and quantities.

Toss an emerald into the recipe and make it permanent :-p

[muaddib]

Na just make the ingot needed mithril or maybe even two.

[Talan Va'lash]

The duration on the minimum caster level of keen (which is probably what it has) is 5 rounds.  30 seconds.

Keen is a pretty big property.  The reason it would be even huger here as a permanant stat is that you can add elemental damage, which is mutilpied on a crit (not sure if thats true to the pnp rule or not.)

For example, you get to choose between two swords: a keen longsword or a longsword with 1d8 fire damage.

I know which I'd pick.  But if you could apply keen to a weapon you could have both.  Which is big.

So yeah, if it were permanant the recepie would have to be like Mithral and Emeralds (and the emeralds would be the easy part heh).

-TV

[muaddib]

Maybe make it so you need mithril ingot and 2 bags of emerald dust.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

I'd say permanent sharpness is a bit extreme. Lower the required lvl in alchemy and the ingredients a bit instead.

While doing that you might want to consider Potions of Clarity as well, which require 3 ruby dusts right now. Thats a bit much for a low lvl potion.

[Chrys Ellis]

Clearly, people see permanent sharpness as a huge bonus to a weapon.  Personally, instead of lowering the requirements for temporary keen, I would like to see the requirements raised and keeping it permanent.  Something like an emerald and/or a mithril ingot.  Clearly, it will be a long time before anyone would be able to have that on their weapon, and it will surely be a rare thing. Also, make the lvl req. go up like 5 lvls when keen is added, or something. 
  If keen is kept with a one or two battle duration, it should be about as hard to make as any of the ability raising potions, in terms of resources and difficulty in making it.

[Zhofe]

I'm a 14th level alchemist, and with my stats maxed, I only had a 30% chance to make this thing.  I attempted 5, and only managed to make one.

Does everyone know how crafting levels work toward percentages? Basically, each level you go up is 10% added to your chance. You are level 14, the max level is 22. There are 8 levels, that is, 80% between you and your maximum ability in alchemy. I am assuming you had yourself buffed by a wizard or cleric, so your 30% is probably more like a 5% or 10%, right?

Okay, so let's take 5% chance, unbuffed, and level 14. At level 22, that is an 85% chance to make the item. Fully buffed, it is trivial, and you can make the oil 100% of the time.

At that point, it is simply a matter of ingredients. Your list was -

2 essences of speed, which in themselves are not that easy to make.  Each essence takes 2 thistle leaves and 2 hops, which are not in the easiest of locales.
2 bags of mahogony sawdust
2 pear juices
1 ingot of adamantium

The main suggestion is to take out the ingot of adamantium. Tell me, how hard would it be gather enough for 20 or so potions without the need for adamantium? Even WITH Adamantium, once you hit the point where it is trivial to make the item, how much of a hassle is it to just knock out a run of adamantium or two and keep them at home until you get the other stuff?

I think it would be a touch overpowering for a max level alchemist if this was easier to make.

[Pankoki]

Keen will never be made permanent. Period.
  The recipe was created to balance the power of the ability. It is at this point what the team considers to be fine, powerwise.
  So the recipe will remain as it is for now, these components can be obtained all in mass quantities.

[Harlas Ravelkione]

Getting above lvl 14-15 in alchemy is not an easy feat.

[PsychicToaster]

Please tell me if I have this right on possible enhancements:

+1/2 Bonus from metal used to create
1 elemental damage
1 metallic damage
Weight Reduction
Visual Effects
Keen (temp from spell or oil)
Holy Avenger (temp from spell)
Flaming Weapon (temp from spell)

I know it would take a lot of effort, but what about altering weapons to have a maximum of 3 magical enchantments(remember, the bonus for the base metal it is made from counts as a magical enchantment)?  It would mean altering all the custom weapon blueprints.  Then you could open up more options for permanent weapon enchantments, like Keen, because you would have to sacrifice one of your damage enhancements for the boosted critical chance.  Perhaps make the exceptional version of any weapon capable of a 4th enchantment to truly make them exceptional.

[Eight-Bit]

Keen is a very deadly thing. Let's take this whole idea into some perspective for a minute. Keen doubles your critital threat range. That means that when you roll a twenty, or roll into your threat rage (the little numbers with the X and a value at the end on your character information sheet..) you have the chance of scoring extra damage based upon your threat modififer. We'll just be simple here for a moment and use your average and rather common rapier. If you score an 18-20 on your attack roll, and you actually hit, you roll another attack. If you hit again double damage is served. Now let's add Keen to that little weapon, shall we? A Keen Rapier criticals on 15-20. Now let's make that Keen Rapier in the hands of a fighter with Improved Critical Rapier. That rapier now criticals on a 12-20 range. Do you see why Keen is not a constant effect, Xiao?

But finally, and I believe one of the best reasons Keen is not allowed to be applied to weapons as a constant effect, are Weapon Masters. A Rapier in the hands of a Weapon Master, with just Improved Critical, and all of those nifty feats they gather, is if you can believe it 13-20 x3. Thats as if they're attacking with a battleaxe that criticals on 40% of their attacks. That's a lot of possible damage.

So, in short, I am quite happy Keen weapons do not exist, or are atleast very rare.

[Zhofe]

Imagine a fighter/weaponmaster with a scyth

on a 20, x4 damage, becomes

19-20 x4 damage with improved crit

19-20 x5 damage with 5 WM levels

17-20 x5 damage with 7 WM levels

13-20 x5 damage with Keen

Even scarier, look at Derrick Loadson, who uses two swords that now crit on a 15-20 for x3 damage and has 6 attacks per round. (4 main hand 2 off hand)

He has lotsa money, and would have no problem buying 2 keen enhancements, crits on a 10-20 for x3 damage, attacking 6 times per round ... that is actually very scary ...

Imagine him hasted, buffed, and loaded with heal potions ....