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Author Topic: Random crafting tool break script  (Read 154 times)

Frendh

Random crafting tool break script
« on: August 22, 2011, 05:37:35 pm »
I have broken a smith hammer and other tool kits by simply clicking to see what is in/on the crafting table/anvil. I am surprised that I do not see people raging about that because it annoys me a lot.  Sure, small money for me. But I know others breaking several gem setting tools without crafting anything, simply by looking at recipes. It is extremely ridiculous.
 
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gilshem ironstone

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2011, 05:47:57 pm »
There are recipe cards available at every crafting merchant for 1gp. They can give you recipes with no hassle.
 

Guardian 452

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 05:53:23 pm »
Unfortunatly not every craft is avail via said recipe cards. So the problem still exists.
 

Frendh

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2011, 06:44:57 pm »
Also, I can't speak for others but I often have to close the crafting table/anvil to open personal bags so I can get more CNR and place CNR in several waves. And each time I can lose my tools.

I think this did not exist back when I was crafting.
 

Masterjack

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 09:27:24 pm »
For the price I pay I think the system works great. I couldn't ask for more.
 

gilshem ironstone

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 11:24:08 pm »
Quote from: Frendh
Also, I can't speak for others but I often have to close the crafting table/anvil to open personal bags so I can get more CNR and place CNR in several waves. And each time I can lose my tools.

I think this did not exist back when I was crafting.


I believe the script was tweaked over a year ago to make breakage less likely.
 

Script Wrecked

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 11:35:04 pm »
Yes, tools that break after two, one, none usages is annoying.

Unfortunately, there is no in-game mechanism for returning the defective item, and beating the snot out of the crafting merchants for shoddy merchandise is frowned upon.

Alas. :rolleyes:
 

Dorganath

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 11:45:22 pm »
The random number generator was changed quite a while ago to give a more evenly distributed result, statistically speaking. The mechanism by which the crafting tools may break at the crafting device has not changed in ages.

What did change is how harvesting tools behave when they break, or rather, what happens when they break. In these cases, you will get a bit of CNR harvested rather than getting nothing.

As it turns out, the script that governs tool breakage is very sensitive to even small changes in the numeric chance for breakage, so there hasn't been any meaningful tweaking of these for a very, very long time.
 

Guardian 452

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2011, 01:17:02 am »
I recall them being changed a very long time ago. Im talking like 2004 probably. The break % was raised ever so slightly. And as Dorg said it is so sensative it would take like 10 wood axes to get 1 branch... and thats no joke!
 

Frendh

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2011, 09:40:40 am »
Quote from: Dorganath
As it turns out, the script that governs tool breakage is very sensitive to even small changes in the numeric chance for breakage, so there hasn't been any meaningful tweaking of these for a very, very long time.


Why does it need to kick in when the tool is not being used? Opening the crafting table after having put something new on it triggers the breakage check. The check should be when you hit the craft button. Breaking a tool that is not being used is pretty stupid.

Quote
Open, place item, close *check kicks in* open again, place item, close *check kicks in*


I am not saying change the numeric value. I am saying move the check. If a player attempts to craft an item, then do the check.

Or is it not possible having it done in any other way? I would really like to know the benefits of having it like this.
 

Dorganath

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2011, 10:40:04 am »
I can't really answer the questions about why there and not somewhere else.  This system isn't even "ours" as such. It's adapted from someone else's work. I do remember looking at this a while back  (several years ago) and I seem to remember it being rather elegantly done where it is and rather complicated to move the check elsewhere in the process. If memory serves, it's not due to the check itself being particularly complex but rather how it interacts with other aspects of the crafting process and how the various steps interact with each other.

Again, I'm going off of memory here, and my memory may be rather faulty. I do know that the crafting system is a fairly complex and inter-dependent piece of work (and kudos to its creator).

I don't know if it helps you or not, but you can place filled bags and  boxes on the crafting stations and they'll look inside them for your  ingredients, so you don't have to keep switching back and forth a bunch  of times.

I understand what you're saying, but it is largely a convenience thing rather than a hardship, and it is doing its job in slowing down crafting.
 

Frendh

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2011, 10:54:26 am »
Quote from: Dorganath
I understand what you're saying, but it is largely a convenience thing rather than a hardship, and it is doing its job in slowing down crafting.
Yes, it is very convenient to look up the recipe before you gather the CNR.  But I guess that can be fixed with a little work and time on my part.

While it slows down crafting, if it were not for the technical aspect of it being too complicated to solve right now, I would call it griefing. Because it makes no sense. An entry fee to the craft hall would be annoying but it makes sense. Changing the Lore and stating that the crafting furniture are more brittle and can handle even less CNR also makes sense.

I understand that it is too time consuming to fix, but saying "it is doing its job in slowing down crafting." just sounds like anything is fine as long as it slows down the crafters.
 

Dorganath

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2011, 12:33:06 pm »
Quote from: Frendh
While it slows down crafting, if it were not for the technical aspect of it being too complicated to solve right now, I would call it griefing. Because it makes no sense. An entry fee to the craft hall would be annoying but it makes sense. Changing the Lore and stating that the crafting furniture are more brittle and can handle even less CNR also makes sense.

I understand that it is too time consuming to fix, but saying "it is doing its job in slowing down crafting." just sounds like anything is fine as long as it slows down the crafters.

OK....

If this is the avenue you want to take then I think this conversation is over.

We are not "griefing" anyone.  Tool breakage has remained constant for as long as I can remember.  We are also not trying to make life difficult for crafters. There are, however, throttles built into the system to keep the crafting pace at a reasonable level.  Another example is the maximum number of a particular item you can craft per attempt. Remember when someone could load up the crafting table with a ridiculous amount of CNR and craft large amounts of product at once?  Turns out crafters found a way to exploit the system this way and progress at a faster rate than intended. Is this "griefing" too? Why do you believe we have a grudge against crafters?

Do not make presumptions about what our intent may be for crafters.
 

Frendh

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2011, 02:29:41 pm »
Quote from: Dorganath
Remember when someone could load up the crafting table with a ridiculous amount of CNR and craft large amounts of product at once?  Turns out crafters found a way to exploit the system this way and progress at a faster rate than intended. Is this "griefing" too? Why do you believe we have a grudge against crafters?

Do not make presumptions about what our intent may be for crafters.


I tried to make the differences distinct. The example you mentioned above is reasonable and does not really need explaining. 'You can only work on so many items at once with two hands. We are slowing down the process, it will suitably reflect that.'. Reasonable.

Placing an item on the crafting table. Take the item back. Place it again on the table and your tool goes 'poof'. There is really no good way to explain that. Unreasonable.

But you did say it is complicated scripting. I agree it is not worth putting in a lot of hours, maybe weeks, in trying to fix it. This I said maybe twice.

Even if it only took five minutes to fix, it does not seem to be needing to be fixed. Seeing as most other players are not bothered by it.

I only noticed the problem now because I got a few broken tools in a short span of time without attempting to craft.  When I worked armor and weapon smithing to lvl ~14-15 over a time period of a year I did not experience this. So that means I was lucky back then.

I got a good explanation for why it is like it is. Thanks for that.
 

Dorganath

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2011, 06:56:21 pm »
Quote from: Frendh
Placing an item on the crafting table. Take the item back. Place it again on the table and your tool goes 'poof'. There is really no good way to explain that. Unreasonable.

The explanation is that the system doesn't know the difference, at that stage of things, between you starting a crafting attempt and you checking a recipe. If it did, I would agree with you.  

So to be clear, tool breakage in general is intended to slow the pace of crafting.  That tools can break when you're only checking recipes is nothing more than a side-effect of the system.
 

Filatus

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2011, 07:27:02 pm »
I think that for a dedicated crafter, it's a small investment of time to catalog the required components. The alternative would be convoluting a script that already works fine for how crafting is intended.

I can understand your frustration though, but I think you're just another  victim of the cruelty of the d20 system. We've all been there, where a string of bad luck on rolls, can really put a damper on one's mood. But that string of consecutive failures is not representative of the overall probabilities.
 

Guardian 452

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2011, 07:39:01 pm »
We do have most tradeskills on those recipe cards but not all. I really like using those... especially when I am out and about and someone asks me about making this or that.

Maybe the remaining trades could be put onto cards... though I'm sure that isnt a small task either.
 

Frendh

Re: Random crafting tool break script
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2011, 07:56:37 pm »
Quote from: Frendh
There is really no good way to explain that. Unreasonable.

I was being unclear. I meant there is really no good way of explaining it ICly in game.