xp question/suggestion

[ycleption]

First of all, I am just curious why the decision was made to include abilities in calculating the amount of xp one receives for crafting. I can, of course, understand that the easier something is, the less one learns from the experience (since xp is the game expression of learning). However, simply because someone has mental or physical aptitude for a craft, should they be punished for this? I don't really think having slightly higher success chances compensates for this, since an increase of 10% or so can mean halved xp. It seems that the result of this, in certain circumstances, having a lower ability score results in higher xp when crafting the right things in a reasonable volume. This is especially disheartening when I save up money to buy some potions, to help me a little, and get drastically less xp as a result.
Thus, would it be possible (or desirable from a game balance point of view) to change to a standard xp system, based only on one's level of a particular craft. Or, perhaps as a compromise, only include a character's base ability score in the xp calculations, so taking a potion or using a spell would help your chances of success, but not mean that you learn less as a result.

I should mention, that I am rather new to this game and its crafting system, so if there's anything I'm missing here, please let me know.
Thanks

[Dorganath]

Well...how is it fair to make something easier and still reap all the rewards of someone who actually had to overcome difficulties because they could not or perhaps did not wish to artificially enhance their physical and/or mental attributes to do the same task?
  At the risk of overstating the obvious, XP stands for eXperience Points, and they reflect, however artificially, the relative experience and ability of a character in a way that can be compared quantitatively to anyone else using the same scale. Just like in real life, we get very little additional benefit out of doing something that we've done so much that it is like breathing or tying one's shoes.
  If one is smarter, one would make a better enchanter, infuser or scribe. If one has nimble fingers, one would make a better jeweler. If one is stronger, one would make a better smelter, armor smith or weapon smith. These attributes make things easier for the crafter, and as such, it's less of a challenge. Less of a challenge means one learns less from the experience and therefore gets less XP.
  Another way to look at it is to take the example of ECL subraces. Most subraces here have ECL (Effective Character Level) ratings due to their attribute bonuses, which make them easily more powerful/more capable than similar characters without those free bonuses. The balancing factor there is the ECL rating, which effectively causes them to earn XP as if they were some higher level than they really are. Why? Because it's assumed their greater attributes make things easier, at least in some regard, and so, to balance that out, such subraces progress more slowly through character levels.
  I hope that makes sense.
  It's not so much a penalty for being good as a reflection of the fact that we don't learn as much from things that are easy as from things that are challenging.

[ycleption]

I understand what you are saying generally, but from my (admittedly limited) time crafting, it seems that it doesn't balance, because an increase in probability incurs a proportionally greater decrease in xp (I don't know if this is true in all cases, but it has been every time I've experimented). Also, I think this invites abuse: one could get drunk or poisoned or diseased before crafting in order to gain xp faster. Clearly this doesn't make sense, but seems to be the analogue to magically increasing one's abilities.  

Dorganath - 1/24/2007  12:02 PM    If one is smarter, one would make a better enchanter, infuser or scribe.  If one has nimble fingers, one would make a better jeweler.  If one is stronger, one would make a better smelter, armor smith or weapon smith. These attributes make things easier for the crafter, and as such, it's less of a challenge.  Less of a challenge means one learns less from the experience and therefore gets less XP.
 

 I don't agree with this, since, for the sake of argument, one could just as easily say that one's natural gifts mean that someone learns more quickly, and thus should gain more xp.  I think that the way something is "easy" because it is routine in the hands of someone who is experienced (game mechanically, higher leveled), is different from the way something is "easy" to someone who is learning, but has natural ability (game mechanically, higher ability score). The current system, and your comments, treat both as the same, and maybe they really are, and I'm making this much more complicated than it needs to be, but just my two cents.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Getting drunk, poisoned, etc. before crafting is considered an exploit, as I understand it. Just to note.

[Acacea]

ycleption - 1/24/2007  3:10 PM
I don't agree with this, since, for the sake of argument, one could just as easily say that one's natural gifts mean that someone learns more quickly, and thus should gain more xp.

It makes them need less XP, because they are better at it. "Level" is OOC, it is not a matter of "but I'm naturally better at it, I should get to level 10 before someone less naturally suited for it." It seems like that at surface, but that's not truly how a CHARACTER measures skill. Rather, it's "but I'm naturally better at it, I should be able to craft x item more quickly than someone less naturally suited for it!" which is exactly the case.

Some of the best crafters in a certain tradeskill are not the ones at the top of the list for level. When I have something extremely difficult that needs to be done, I want it to go to the best, and the best is not necessarily the highest level, because of natural ability scores. It evens out.

[Filatus]

You should compare two people with the same crafting level, or IC seasons in the trade.

The one with better ability points for the trade will be capable compared to the other, although the yspend the same amount of seasons in the trade.

[Dorganath]

ycleption - 1/24/2007  5:10 PM  I understand what you are saying generally, but from my (admittedly limited) time crafting, it seems that it doesn't balance, because an increase in probability incurs a proportionally greater decrease in xp (I don't know if this is true in all cases, but it has been every time I've experimented). Also, I think this invites abuse: one could get drunk or poisoned or diseased before crafting in order to gain xp faster. Clearly this doesn't make sense, but seems to be the analogue to magically increasing one's abilities.  

Dorganath - 1/24/2007  12:02 PM    If one is smarter, one would make a better enchanter, infuser or scribe.  If one has nimble fingers, one would make a better jeweler.  If one is stronger, one would make a better smelter, armor smith or weapon smith. These attributes make things easier for the crafter, and as such, it's less of a challenge.  Less of a challenge means one learns less from the experience and therefore gets less XP.
   

 I don't agree with this, since, for the sake of argument, one could just as easily say that one's natural gifts mean that someone learns more quickly, and thus should gain more xp.  I think that the way something is "easy" because it is routine in the hands of someone who is experienced (game mechanically, higher leveled), is different from the way something is "easy" to someone who is learning, but has natural ability (game mechanically, higher ability score). The current system, and your comments, treat both as the same, and maybe they really are, and I'm making this much more complicated than it needs to be, but just my two cents.

 No, actually it does balance very well, and for the reasons I described. And it's been balanced and re-balanced over the years, so I do believe we have a very good handle on the mechanics of crafting and the XP it gives.
  And as one becomes better at a craft, the benefit to do the easy things diminishes and eventually vanishes....kind of like how a RL chef gets absolutely no new insight or culinary skill by making a bowl of cold cereal with milk.
  And as one gets better, the recipes that challenge the crafter in the same way give more XP as a base.
  Perhaps that is the part of the equation you are missing: The base XP for a given crafted item increases as the difficulty (i.e. crafting level of the item) increases.

[Acacea]

Seasons is such a horrible term...off topic I know but what do seasons really have to do with level, crafting or adventuring? People who go, I have seen seven seasons... make you wonder what a seven year old (or 2 year old?) is doing hunting ogres! Hehe. Likewise many craftsmen have spent more years crafting than they would have seasonal levels...and others get leveled so fast that you'd have to divide it by ten.

(I was asked to make the required Adventurer Seasoning joke, but I remain steadfast in my refusal. Oh wait.)