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Author Topic: Tinkering  (Read 535 times)

stragen

Tinkering
« on: June 04, 2006, 05:18:27 pm »
Dear Layo-Players-GMs,

Tinkering is the craft of making small delicate items such as springs, gears and crystal rods.  In most fantasy settings when one thinks of a tinkerer, you imagine a nimble gnomish inventor bent over a desk with his magnification enhancing goggles.  The primary attributes required for this sort of work is dexterity and intelligence.  Hence the gnomish wizard/rogue is a good fit.  So far  Layonara fits this image.

However in Layonara all the best tinkers (with some notable exceptions) are mountains of hulking muscle with hands the size of the previously mentioned gnome body, brains inversely proportional to their size, and the fine motor skills of a sledgehammer.  The best tinkerers are Half-Giants and other strength based warriors.  Why is this?  Simply because the raw minerals needed to craft a single final product weighting less then a pound, is often hundreds of pounds in weight.  That is the mountains of sand and coal need to make a single crystal rod.  Of course the aforementioned Gnome could use his Ox, but he cannot compete with the raw carrying power of Half-Giant.  He could also hire a Half-Giant delivery man.  But this still leaves the unanswered question where does all that sand go in the process of making a crystal rod?

I would like to suggest that for future version of the crafting system that a mechanism other weight and volume be used, at least for end products that are not large and bulky.  This could be the introduction of rare mineral dusts, or other components, into the crystal rod tinkering process, to purify the glass.

The current craft system may be to tied into the local economy to change without upsetting players.  But it is quirky to watch the half-giant crystal-rod sales men in action

I expect that there will be other suggestions for possible 'purification' components to the manufacture.  My suggestions are:

Eg
Crystal Rod I, 4 glass ingots  and 1 coal + 1 greenstone dust.  - Green Crystal Rod
Crystal Rod II, 4 glass ingots and 1 coal + 1 feldspar dust - Blue Crystal Rod
Crystal Rod III, 4 glass ingot and 1 coal + 1 alexandrite dust - Red Crystal Rod
Crystal Rod IV, 4 standard sand and 1 coal + diamond dust - White Crystal Rod

Thus the volume of glass and coal is the same but the purfication component becomes harder to obtain.

In The Spirit of Layo,

Stragen

 

PS:  Please post other suggestions below.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Tinkering
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2006, 08:59:42 pm »
How about cutting the glass down a bit? Halve the glass requirement, as the actual crystal that ends up being produces runs a half a pound, as opposed to the five a glass ingot weighs. Also, I suggest upping the first-tier dust req. to malachite. It's much harder to get for your average non-hulk.
 

darkstorme

Re: Tinkering
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2006, 09:20:55 am »
That, or (MUCH more complex, scripting-wise) give certain CNRs (like glass ingots) a "breakable" flag.  People with low DEX run the risk of breaking the items just by handling them!
 

Harloff

Re: Tinkering
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2006, 07:12:33 am »
I don't know whether it is true or not, that most good tinkers a muscle men. Skarp is one of the characters with most tinkering exp but that doesn't make him one of the best tinkers he just has more exsperience but he will never become very good due to his lousy stats. My guess is that a lot of characters with lower tinker levels are better than Skarp. However, I don't know whether it is a good idea to change the recipies, but i think using diamond dust for rods IV is a bit wild since diamonds are so relatively difficult to get by and that some recipies take more than one rod IV.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: Tinkering
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2006, 01:37:46 pm »
Drop it to Garnet, then, or maybe Fire Opal.
 

Talan Va'lash

Re: Tinkering
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2006, 05:33:19 pm »
heh if this is ever used Rod IVs will be diamond dust at least. or something of that level of difficulty.

Diamonds are not that difficult to obtain (in terms of the level party that can obtain them.)

Enhchantment rods have become a little easier to obtain than they should be.

A lot of the characters that used to be the best tinkers were mages but several of them have kicked the bucket or left the server.

Oh, and after all the level 22 people on the tradeskills most are rogues, and various other dex characters.  not a lot of gnomes on the server though.
 
Which... is a blessing

just kidding.  


mostly


 

stragen

Re: Tinkering
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2006, 07:13:11 pm »
Quote
Talan Va'lash - 6/7/2006  11:33 AM

heh if this is ever used Rod IVs will be diamond dust at least. or something of that level of difficulty.



I agree that the component should be something close to the difficulty of diamond dust for Rod IVs.  How I don't think that RodIVs have become too easy to make.  My point was that with the current system most of the crystal rods produced are made by STR-based-characters.  This is just a side effect of using weight and volume to control production, as the STR-based-character can carry more sand and coal.  This isn't bad, just a side effect of the system.  I don't think crystal rods are too easy to obtain.  Because (1) they are just refined glass, (2) they are not a finished product.  The implication of adding purification components, like diamond dust, to the crystal rod, would be to increase the price of numerous end products.  It may not be fair to change the rules of the world in the middle of the game.

Quote
Talan Va'lash - 6/7/2006  11:33 AM

Oh, and after all the level 22 people on the tradeskills most are rogues, and various other dex characters.  not a lot of gnomes on the server though.
 
Which... is a blessing

just kidding.  

mostly



Now your just making me mad.  If I had time to do him justice I'd bring in my Gnomish Inventor, Gnow Tastesbien, and have him hang around Talan all day asking him to test 'new' potions and devices all day.  While pummelling him with questions about obscure and trival points of lore.
 
Maybe for Layo II.  When ya fix the tinkering system.

*high pitched pesudo-evil chuckle that breaks into a coughing fit caused by smoke*
"Fiddlesticks whats burning now?"  
*runs around looking for the fire that he hasn't noticed is actually in his beard*
 

Pibemanden

Re: Tinkering
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2006, 04:19:26 pm »
I think I have a little something to add to this discussion. Even though Storold is a lousy tinker as he is level 7 now he is able to make glass ignots without ever failing. All of these ignots are sold, and we're not talking 10's of ignots here... If he had the desire to become a great tinker he could do it because he have made a lot of glass during his time, but he sold it. Assuming that I had spend all my time leveling Storold in tinkering instead of selling glas he would properly be around 10-14 now and that is just from making rod's and glass and Storold isn't really a str build to say the least his base str is right now 11 and still he manages to get lots and lots of sand made into glas that could eventually end up as rod's.
 

Faldred

RE: Tinkering
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2006, 05:00:00 am »
Part of the problem in terms of STR builds being good tinkerers is that making molds and glass ingots really should be considered smelting tasks, not tinkering.  This is gross-scale, physical work.  Making things out of glass, such as flasks or crsytal rods, is a more delicate job for more skillful hands, which goes with tinkering.

However, I imagine that the mold and glass making was grouped under tinkering for balance reasons -- specifically, to make sure that would-be smelters have to use cross-discipline skills in order to do weapon or armor crafting (or buy what they needed from someone who uses those skills).

Personally, if Zug could make molds from smelting rather than tinkering, he'd probably not have done much, if any, tinkering.  As it is, since he's gotten pretty decent at the general discipline, he also makes things like crystal rods for both practice and hopefully for sale.
 

Willowraine

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    Re: Tinkering
    « Reply #9 on: June 11, 2006, 04:53:42 am »
    I think the str based fighters have an easier time in almost all crafts. They have a much easier time killing the creatures "gaurding" the materials, and then can carry much more materials without needing an ox at all, which has a twofold benefit of not running the risk of losing said ox in a dangerous area as well.

    On the other hand the "gathered" materials (fruits, nuts, sand, etc.) are just as easy, if not a little easier, to get for some dex based chars by simply sneaking past the enemies and getting what you need without having to fight at all. However, this process is much slower than simply going in killing off everything and gathering an incredible amount of materials in wieght to then take and craft till you drop.

    Imagine the strong char who can go in kill everything, getting available materials, go and place them on an ox, then go back for more, filling the ox and then themselves with materials and go and craft and craft and craft and craft and craft and craft and craft while the weaker chars have to get a party together (if getting things that you cant stay hidden to get), get a little, possibly walking very slowly back to thier ox, filling the ox up, maybe filling themselves up resulting in a reduced movement (remember too that the rules state you are not supposed to burden your char to an unreasonable amount of weight) and then go craft using up the smaller amount of materials they got and having to do it all over again before the stronger char has even finished crafting from one trip. Sure the people you need to help you kill can carry stuff as well but usually two or three of them want an even amount of the gotten materials for themselves reducing the amount you personally would get even more.


    Is there a way to fix all this? Not without lots of thought and tons of complication.
     

    Harloff

    Re: Tinkering
    « Reply #10 on: June 12, 2006, 07:50:17 am »
    *grins* I had the impression that the spellslingers were the most powerfull players on the server with the exstremely powerfull summons they have on Layo... That the str based players are more powerfull is completely new to me.

    But yes the str based players can carry alot and that is one of the few benifits they have, but a polymorphed wizard or a spelslinger with maximized bullstrength, they can carry a lot to...
     

    Stephen_Zuckerman

    Re: Tinkering
    « Reply #11 on: June 12, 2006, 09:22:42 am »
    High-level spellslingers, sure, but low-to-mid levels? Nah.
     

    jan

    Re: Tinkering
    « Reply #12 on: June 12, 2006, 09:36:00 am »
    Heh ..being a somewhat powerfull fighter myself, i can asure you all,that the places a fighter can do on his own are easier to do for a spellslinger of the same lvll.
    Getting sand and clay to use in tinkering is easy for both a fighter and a spellslinger btw.
    I guess that if you would take a look at howmany hours the highlevell tinkerers have put in to get were they are now,you would pale and run for cover for their wrath*grins*

    Ohhh..thinking about it ...making small and delicate items ....wouldnt that be gemcrafting ?
     

    Stephen_Zuckerman

    Re: Tinkering
    « Reply #13 on: June 12, 2006, 12:28:55 pm »
    Gemcrafting is more about beauty than techincal... Stuff.
     

    jan

    Re: Tinkering
    « Reply #14 on: June 12, 2006, 04:25:45 pm »
    Quote
    Stephen_Zuckerman - 6/12/2006  9:28 PM

    Gemcrafting is more about beauty than techincal... Stuff.


    Heh ..ever tried to make ring in rl? its hard *grins*
     

    Stephen_Zuckerman

    Re: Tinkering
    « Reply #15 on: June 12, 2006, 06:10:10 pm »
    Oh yeah. @.@ One of the hardest things I've ever done. But still, it's more about bringing out the luster of the gem than filing down exact degrees and making sure the stress will be absorbed by a certain plane.
     

    Harloff

    Re: Tinkering
    « Reply #16 on: June 13, 2006, 07:41:03 am »
    Quote
    Stephen_Zuckerman - 6/12/2006  6:22 PM

    High-level spellslingers, sure, but low-to-mid levels? Nah.


    *grins* How many low level figther have you seen gather valuable resources on their own... 8)
     

    Stephen_Zuckerman

    Re: Tinkering
    « Reply #17 on: August 20, 2006, 04:07:38 pm »
    So, revisiting this, the idea of adding other components to tinkering materials, while cutting down the volume of CNR you'd need, seems like a fine idea.

    It would work just as well for the metal products as the glass ones, but I'm not sure what CNR to use as the substitute for so many ingots would be. Any ideas?
     

    Dorganath

    RE: Tinkering
    « Reply #18 on: August 20, 2006, 06:16:40 pm »
    With respect to higher level rods taking significantly less components in favor of harder-to-get ones...well, I personally can't thing of any besides rubies and emeralds that are significantly difficult to obtain in quantity. Now, I realize that this is just for discussion, and we all understand that such ideas may not be incorporated until the next version/implementation. However, the volume of components does serve to make the higher level items more rare in the market. Though really, they're not all that rare at the moment, and crafters seem to be able to work out arrangements to get ingots and/or blank rods in quantities.
      Taking the Rod IV example, if we required diamond dust, we'd probably want to require like...8 of them, to pull a number at random. Though even there, I know of at least a few people of in the mid-teen levels who seem to be quite adept at obtaining diamonds, even solo (which is another issue altogether), so even that's not a big deal. Sand and glass ingots, while being really easy to obtain, is also rather slow and tedious. That in itself helps to keep the number of Rod IV's somewhat rare, and truthfully, that's a good thing.
      As has been said many times, things are the way they are for balancing reasons. By making recipes harder, both in terms of raw materials and level-enforced difficulty, we keep them rare and pretty valuable. Now, imagine for moment that Rod IV's (and subsequently enhancement rods of the same type) became effectively easier and/or faster to produce. In the real world, the "law" of supply and demand would more or less cause the value/cost of such things to drop, as the supply and demand are closer together. Economic forces of competition and such would dictate lower prices. However, on Layonara, the primary metric is the lens price, which does not change based on the number of such items in circulation. I can pretty much guarantee that the price of Rod IV's and enhancement Rod IV's would NOT go down significantly if at all. The result...more gold in the economic hands of a few and really no significant outlet. That's not really good for anyone.
      To put it in other, more succinct terms: I personally and the GM Team as a whole do not want high level crafting items to get any easier to create. This applies to all crafts.
      To address the suggestion of something similar for higher-level metals...again, this greater requirement for raw materials serves the same purpose as it does for rods. From a practical standpoint, adding things to metals doesn't make a lot of sense. You'll either make an alloy (which may have some beneficial properties at the expense of others) or you'll effectively add impurities, which then actually weaken the metal. There are exceptions to this, though few. Steel, for example, is an addition of carbon to the crystaline structure of iron, which makes it stronger, actually. Now, as with crystal rods, we could make justifications for changing the requirements for the higher level stuff, but still, I would assert that they should not get any easier.
      In conclusion, am I saying that this will not happen? No, certainly not. What I am attempting to illuminate of course is the perspective of a bigger picture. That which affects a single craft actually affects much more than that. Difficulties are set through levels, CNR needs/availability and a few other things so that a desired rareity is enforced overall. Whatever changes we make would need to keep these things in mind. Our current system may not be perfect; in fact, I'm sure it has flaws, but at the same time, I think it works pretty well overall for all the purposes for which it is intended.
     

    Hellblazer

    Re: Tinkering
    « Reply #19 on: August 22, 2006, 09:40:44 am »
    Quote
    Stephen_Zuckerman - 6/12/2006  9:10 PM  Oh yeah. @.@ One of the hardest things I've ever done. But still, it's more about bringing out the luster of the gem than filing down exact degrees and making sure the stress will be absorbed by a certain plane.
     Actuly. If you take a diamond and dont planned first where you are going to hit, where it is stronger weaker the line of the materials etc. on hit will shater the rock into something unusable. SO it takes a lot of techinical and expertise to make a perfect diamond worth of be put on a ring. Dont forget that the ring is always made for the rock not the other way around.

     

    anything