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Author Topic: All the Trappings  (Read 1257 times)

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2006, 07:38:31 pm »
Swashbucklery (adv.) - Like a swashbuckler

Swashbucklery (n.) - Things percieved to be done primarily by Swashbucklers.

Anyway, I also agree with the two-route thing. It's what I do with my players in PnP.
 

Niles09

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2006, 02:28:45 am »
Quote
Weeblie - 6/27/2006  3:07 PM
In my opinion, rogues aren't weak. They are like bards. Their strength differs from the others classes.


There you go, thats exactly how this started out. We cant use our strenghts that really differs from other classes. Not in the ordinary dungeon.
 

Weeblie

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2006, 02:39:37 am »
Quote
Niles09 - 6/28/2006  11:28 AM

Quote
Weeblie - 6/27/2006  3:07 PM
In my opinion, rogues aren't weak. They are like bards. Their strength differs from the others classes.


There you go, thats exactly how this started out. We cant use our strenghts that really differs from other classes. Not in the ordinary dungeon.


Skills are important, but well... Insane amount of damage can be used everywhere... Just put a bow in the hands of a rogue... Ugh!
 

aragwen

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2006, 03:49:54 am »
Quote
Niles09 - 6/28/2006 11:28 AM
 
Quote
Weeblie - 6/27/2006 3:07 PM In my opinion, rogues aren't weak. They are like bards. Their strength differs from the others classes.

  There you go, thats exactly how this started out. We cant use our strenghts that really differs from other classes. Not in the ordinary dungeon.

  Niles09, Jacchri travels with a rogue quite a lot and let me tell you without her, Abi, we would many times be way worst off. To summarise, rogues scout, remove traps, sneak attack from the flanks, open doors. Now there are many places, which I wont mention here, where you cant go without a rogue. In any fight a rogue has huge value and could deal the killing blow saving a group. Exploring new areas without a rogue, who are the best scouts, is very dangerous and could well lead to deaths.
  So I really dont understand where you coming from saying rogues cant use their strenghts. Rogues will not do well alone, that is a fact, but in a group whether on a quest or not, they will shine.
  Rogues have a certain job to do and they are good in it. Similiar other classes have jobs to do and they are good in it.
 

Niles09

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2006, 04:08:02 am »
Aregwen this whole topic is about there is no traps or locks. Not for us that aint lvl 15 or so.

What you say sounds just as it should be, but some of us just dont have the level.
 

Frelinder

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Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2006, 04:09:18 am »
The main reason rouges multiclass with fighter is to get some extra feats. Fighter 5 / Rouge 15 is an common mix. A plain Rouge wouldn't be much less weaker.. But in mosts opinion the choise between 8d6 sneak attack with 3 extra feats is better then plain rouge 10d6 sneak attack.

And Weebli is soooo right about Rouges with a bow.

Put those extra feats in Mastering a bow and you will have an archer dealing 40-50 HP in damage every arrow he shoot. This is an advantage that many seems to forget how extremly deadly rouges are with ranged weapons.

I Would say that the Arcane Archer gets his butt kicked from an rouge archer... ( sorry Jacc  :P )

The rouge Class is not weaker then the others.. its just how you built the character. I bet I could build an rouge that kicks butts with most fighters ;)
 

aragwen

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2006, 04:18:51 am »
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Niles09 - 6/28/2006 1:08 PM Aregwen this whole topic is about there is no traps or locks. Not for us that aint lvl 15 or so. What you say sounds just as it should be, but some of us just dont have the level.
 And I am saying what Dorganath has said many times, there are allready plenty traps and locks for all levels of rogues. You just need to find them. Perhaps we could even add more, but trust me there are plenty allready. But point taken that you want more, but before we add more, go find those there allready and count them and respond here and tell me how many you could find. But please dont disclose locations.
  @Frelinder, you are 100% correct from a damage point of view regarding rogue archer vs arcane archer. But then arcane archer will hit way more often than a rogue archer. And arcane archers have other skills which I just enjoy. But that goes back to building a character that you would like to RP. There are so many alternatives it is just scary. :P
 

Niles09

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2006, 04:30:53 am »
Right I will (away from PC until friday though), but I will still say, neither red light cave, Sielwood cave, Haven mines, the lizardmen place, have traps vs Krandor crypts and Storans which have a few. Traps should be something that is on the adventure, not something rouges look around to find, so they can dissable some traps all alone and with any reason but to dissable them.

What you said before about Abi, that would be so nice if we could have that at the lower levels. Haven mines for one, they would be so much more interesting with traps. And as said before and ogre mage surely could get a few simple traps made.
 

Frelinder

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Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2006, 04:34:01 am »
Yes Aragwen.. I just took you as an example to show one of the big advantages rouges have.. Hope you didn't mind ;)  I'm getting tired of hearing all this complains on a class that is clearly underestimated. Rouges are DEADLY!

Example.

Build an Halfling rouge. he has + AB in ranged weapons. by the time he hit lvl 20 he can have 34 in DEX. I promise he would hit often enough with that modifier. take the feat Weapon finess and he can also be verry deadly in mele.

With the AC from the dex (+12) and the Tumble (+5) Mithrill clothing.. hehe :) and maybe a small shield he would be well protected.

Add all the skills rouges have and you got an character that would do most people envy

Now enough about rouges being weak and are only good for dissable traps in quests....
 

Niles09

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2006, 04:45:14 am »
Frelinder we're not talking lvl 20 here, up there everything sounds gloriues sure, we're talking lvl 10 and not builds. I would like to see a 10th lvl rouge be as deadly as a 10th lvl fighter in Haven. All the fun in the rouges lies in its skills. Sneak attack in just another way of adding damage with a weapon and so not one of the things that truly makes the rouge different.
 

aragwen

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2006, 04:45:46 am »
:) I dont mind.
  And you correct one could build a very deadly rogue, likewise you could build a deadly cleric, sorcerer, fighter and every other class.
  But then again you could have a very weak character as well with a great background and personallity which will be equally as fun to play.
 

Frelinder

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Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2006, 05:01:55 am »
Yes.. I bet i also could built the worst weakest character one ever seen.. and he/she would probably be quite fun to play hehe :)

And just because you built an strong rouge, cleric, fighter or whatever doesn't take out that he could have an great background and personality and vice versa ofcourse.. :)

but the issue here was that people thinks that rouges are weak.. and they are simply not!

And for the trap discussion I think Pen N Poppers idea sounds great for NWN2 :)

//Edit: And by the way.. Thanks Aragwen for the quest you did for Boon, Voon and the others that were there on Dragon isle some time ago.. I had a blast and i know everyone who was there thought it was great! :) Those spontanious quests are the best...
 

Niles09

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2006, 05:32:50 am »
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aragwen - 6/28/2006  1:45 AM    :) I dont mind.
  And you correct one could build a very deadly rogue, likewise you could build a deadly cleric, sorcerer, fighter and every other class.
  But then again you could have a very weak character as well with a great background and personallity which will be equally as fun to play.
 Oh yes, I do indeed like to RP Zan and have quite a fun time doing that. Though that doesnt mean that other parts of the game can be fun too.
 

darkstorme

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2006, 05:45:59 am »
I don't think anyone suggests that the Rogue class is weak - merely that it gets the short end of the stick when it comes to early levelling opportunities - I know that the handbook suggests that a concerted player can reach level 7 in a week.  I put in (on average) 6 hours a week, and it's been 3 months... and Kell's still level 6.  He is still at the point where he has to pester a fighter (or anyone who can temporarily distract the enemy) to come with him to mine for copper.  Certainly, sneak-attack is crippling, but it'd be nice to see a Rogue get credit for what they're supposed to do - sneak past the enemy unseen and get what they're after, then slip out, perhaps killing one or two adversaries on the way.

(This is why I support Pen N Popper's idea - a trapped hallway for those whose expertise runs in that direction, with, say, one or two enemies, or a heavily guarded corridor for parties whose strength lies in.. well, strength - SZ's idea  - implement the XP reward for disarming a trap, scaling by level/disarm DC - and, to a limited extent, Niles09's idea.  I don't agree with salting EVERYWHERE with traps, but certainly, if there were ever a place to put low-level dungeon traps, it'd be the Red Light Caverns.  Goblins are notorious for using traps, as the cowardly little beasts are disinclined to face enemies directly on the battlefield.)
 

Faldred

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2006, 05:46:04 am »
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Niles09 - 6/28/2006  7:45 AM

Frelinder we're not talking lvl 20 here, up there everything sounds gloriues sure, we're talking lvl 10 and not builds. I would like to see a 10th lvl rouge be as deadly as a 10th lvl fighter in Haven. All the fun in the rouges lies in its skills. Sneak attack in just another way of adding damage with a weapon and so not one of the things that truly makes the rouge different.


"Deadly" is a highly relative term.  Let's look at a fighter and a rogue at level 10:

HUMAN FIGHTER
BAB: 10
Attacks/round: 2
Base damage (med weap.): 1d10
AB Modifiers: STR 20 (+5), +1 Weapon, +1 Weapon Finesse = +7
Damage Modifiers: STR 20 (+5), +1 Weapon, +2 Weapon Spec, +1d4 minor elemental = +8 +1d4
AC: Base 10, Iron half-plate (+8), Iron Tower Shield (+4) = 22

HALFLING ROGUE (w/ shortbow)
BAB: 7
Attacks/round: 2 (3 w/ rapid shot)
Base damage (shortbow): 1d6
AB Modifiers: DEX 20 (+5), +1 Weapon, +1 Weapon Finesse, +2 racial bonus = +9 (+7 w/ rapid shot)
Damage Modifiers: +1 Weapon, +1d4 arrow, +1d4 minor elemental, +5d6 sneak = +1 +2d4 +5d6
AC: Base 10, DEX 20 (+5), Tumble 13 (+2), +1 Leather (+3), +1 Racial = 21

====

Okay.. the fighter is getting 2 attacks per round at AB +17/+12, ignoring criticals, each attack is doing 1d10 + 8 + 1d4 damage, for 10-22 per hit, averaging 16.

The rogue archer is getting 3 sneak attacks per round with Rapid Shot, at AB +14/+9/+14 (and ignores target's positive DEX and Dodge AC modifiers).  Again ignoring criticals, the rogue is doing 1d6 + 1 + 2d4 + 5d6 damage , for 9-45 per hit, averaging 27.

Clearly, in general, the rogue is more "deadly" than the fighter -- he's going to hit slightly more often, and for significantly more damage.  Heck, from a defensive standpoint, the rogue's AC, despite no heavy armor or shield, is only 1 less than the fighter.  But the deadliness comes at a cost -- the rogue must be able to sneak attack, which takes away most of his/her damage against certain creatures and requires some kind of "tank" to occupy the enemy the rest of the time.

Of course, there are other trade-offs.  The fighter is going to have considerably higher HP, both from base HD and CON bonuses, and will have additional feats to improve either his/her offensive or defensive caapabilities (improved critical, for example, which isn't available to a rogue until level 12 [11 really, but no feat slot until 12]).  The rogue is going to have much better skills, however, and with Evasion (and Improved Evasion if taken at level 10), will avoid a lot of magical damage the fighter just has to stand there and take.  Plus, the rogue's ability to use magical items (if skill points are so invested), gives them alternate means of offense or defense beyond their normal class abilities.

I really don't think one is more or less balanced than the other.  Clearly a rogue cannot solo, even if a fighter can.  (Though with such a low will save, a fighter can be put in seriously mortal danger by just one "daze" spell -- that's a level 0 spell!)  But in a party, the rogue is far deadlier than the fighter in most circumstances.  And this dispartity increases at higher levels.

Edit: Corrected halfiling stats to add +1 racial AC bonus
 

darkstorme

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2006, 06:01:40 am »
The argument I put forth in support of more traps/locks/puzzles is, in part, because the current environment limits what a Rogue can be.  I never said the class was underpowered - I know for a fact that a party is pleased to have a Rogue for the sheer amount of hurt they can inflict.  But while Kell (my character) does not shy from combat, his background sets him up to be stealth-centric, a scout, adept at stealing/unsetting traps without killing.  With the base NWN setup, this is a crippling backstory, since the only way to gain XP in a reliable way is to kill things.  RP and Quest XP is a start (if Quests overlapped the time I have available to play), but it'd be nice to get some XP for what Rogues were originally intended for.  

I don't mean that a Rogue should be able to solo Firesteep - or anywhere, for that matter - but that there should be a point to proceeding along a corridor Stealthed ahead of the party aside from posturing.  Many times, the party I've been with has charged ahead past their "scout" - and who can blame them?  Stealth makes a character slow (at least until they introduce "running stealth"), and, generally, advance information does not significantly change the battle strategy (the exception to this is in a dungeon of a sufficiently higher-level than the party, in which case, advance information can mean "oh carp.  Let's run!")

It would be a delight bordering on manic glee to send Kell ahead, have him come across some lovely, deadly traps that would have decimated the party, and have them unstrung/disassembled when the party arrived, paving the way for the spellhurlers and swordswingers to take apart the more mobile parts of the dungeon.  I understand that this may be the case in higher-level dungeons - but I certainly haven't seen it yet.

(As an addendum, thank you everyone who doesn't convert my class of choice into facial makeup.)
 

Dorganath

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2006, 06:05:06 am »
Quote
Niles09 - 6/28/2006  6:30 AM  Right I will (away from PC until friday though), but I will still say, neither red light cave, Sielwood cave, Haven mines, the lizardmen place, have traps vs Krandor crypts and Storans which have a few. Traps should be something that is on the adventure, not something rouges look around to find, so they can dissable some traps all alone and with any reason but to dissable them.
 I told myself I was not going to comment further, but I'm finding it very, very difficult. *sighs*
  We all know that there are no traps in those places. There are also no traps in the High Forest, in the Fort Hope Outskirts, and countless other places around Layonara. And the reason is quite simple....
  We can't build Layonara just for rogues. All the places you listed are visited HEAVILY due to low-level quests and CNR primarily. And let me repeat something I said above:
  Until the recent Bioware update, it was not feasible to respawn traps without making them infinitely retriggerable. In case you do not fully realize what I am saying here, it means that even if we had traps in these heavily-visited areas, the first person to disarm or trigger them would effectively remove them, and you likely would not see them anyway.
  Lastly...the notion that traps should be "part of the adventure" and the notion that rogues can "dissable some traps all alone and with any reason but to dissable them" seem to me to be saying two different things.
  If you want to just disable traps for the sake of disabling them, then there are places to do that right now....and there's a small token of treasure waiting for your troubles. If you want traps to be part of the adventure, well, they're there too, but remember that the adventure is for everyone. Traps most likely will not be in the heavily-visited areas simply because we want everyone to be able to have fun, with or without a rogue.
  And hopefully to put this particular complaint to rest, as we move forward and as we transition to NWN2, we will be taking a look at EVERYTHING. And I'll say this: we have a system for respawning traps almost ready to go. Your complaint and request have been noted, and with all such requests it will be considered, but you must have patience and you must understand that we cannot simply just indulge the whims of every player, class or whatever. We have to approach things from a world perspective and establish things that work as a whole.
 

Niles09

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2006, 06:05:08 am »
The funny part is... the fighters at my lvl usually deal the same amount of damage as this rouge you show. That is my in game experience. Secondly how do you think a rouge would be able to solo any place? Sure the first attack would be deadly, but after that the rest of whatever monsters is there would make short work of the rouge.
Besides as I said before, sneak attack is not what makes rouge special its just a damage modifier.

Anyway Im totally with darkstorm's sugestion.
 

Niles09

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2006, 06:12:12 am »
Quote
Dorganath - 6/28/2006  3:05 AM    
Quote
Niles09 - 6/28/2006  6:30 AM  Right I will (away from PC until friday though), but I will still say, neither red light cave, Sielwood cave, Haven mines, the lizardmen place, have traps vs Krandor crypts and Storans which have a few. Traps should be something that is on the adventure, not something rouges look around to find, so they can dissable some traps all alone and with any reason but to dissable them.
 I told myself I was not going to comment further, but I'm finding it very, very difficult. *sighs*
  We all know that there are no traps in those places. There are also no traps in the High Forest, in the Fort Hope Outskirts, and countless other places around Layonara.  And the reason is quite simple....
  We can't build Layonara just for rogues.  All the places you listed are visited HEAVILY due to low-level quests and CNR primarily.  And let me repeat something I said above:
  Until the recent Bioware update, it was not feasible to respawn traps without making them infinitely retriggerable.  In case you do not fully realize what I am saying here, it means that even if we had traps in these heavily-visited areas, the first person to disarm or trigger them would effectively remove them, and you likely would not see them anyway.
  Lastly...the notion that traps should be "part of the adventure" and the notion that rogues can "dissable some traps all alone and with any reason but to dissable them" seem to me to be saying two different things.
  If you want to just disable traps for the sake of disabling them, then there are places to do that right now....and there's a small token of treasure waiting for your troubles.  If you want traps to be part of the adventure, well, they're there too, but remember that the adventure is for everyone.  Traps most likely will not be in the heavily-visited areas simply because we want everyone to be able to have fun, with or without a rogue.
  And hopefully to put this particular complaint to rest, as we move forward and as we transition to NWN2, we will be taking a look at EVERYTHING.  And I'll say this:  we have a system for respawning traps almost ready to go.  Your complaint and request have been noted, and with all such requests it will be considered, but you must have patience and you must understand that we cannot simply just indulge the whims of every player, class or whatever.  We have to approach things from a world perspective and establish things that work as a whole.
 Right then. Didnt know exactly what you meant about the bioware update before... Anyway my suggestion with traps was simply: not to make deadly traps in well traveled areas, but just some that would take a few hit points, as Ive stated before fighters have lots of hit points, so if they dont have a rouge they would be a bit weaker sure, but if a rouge dont have a fighter he is usually dead.   About the transition to NWN2 I think you should take a look at the possibilities darkstorm sugested. I will leave it at that then.
 

darkstorme

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2006, 07:01:35 am »
Well, the Bioware update was something people have been clamouring for since 1.65.  And Niles, as well-meaning as I'm sure it is, putting traps that take a few hitpoints in well-travelled areas would be highly detrimental to, say, mages.  Low hitpoints, low reflex save... fighters would shrug it off, but you'd be screwing over another class, and that's simply not fair.

While there were solutions to the "infinitely respawning/triggering trap" problem before (usually scripting), I can understand that this would be non-scaling or cause server lag, and thus be discounted.  I appreciate that respawning traps are being engineered now.  My argument, as before, has little to do with disabling traps for their own sake, but disabling traps to - as the chicken did - get to the other side.

(And as clarification, Dorganath, I really am not trying to be a fly in the development team's collective ointment, and I do appreciate you taking the time to post to this thread.)