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Author Topic: All the Trappings  (Read 1260 times)

Filatus

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2006, 07:21:45 am »
Well, two give my two cents in this, playing a lvl 20 mage.

Daeron can with the use of find traps disable most traps that are not considered epic. And well to be fair all the important ones are with de certain DC that even if you have a high enough diable trap skill you will have to be a rogue to disable them.

Next to this there is the open lock skill, a skill which is very rare in Layo. Also something a rogue could deal with in minutes, while a whole party of mages, sorcerors, paladins and clerics would simply not be able to get past the door.

When you get to area's with that really high DC's it is usually the rogues disabling the traps with the aid of wizards using magic to improve their abilities.

If a party decides to go for some dungeoncrawling it is just stupid to not have a rogue along. I'll admit that this doesn't have to be a pure class rogue, but they're needed nevertheless.

And to be fair, the rogues's skill goes beyond just searching for and disabling traps. They're valuable scouts and next to this they can be pretty effective in battle if they're used correctly.
 

darkstorme

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2006, 07:38:59 am »
Again, this doesn't address the problem that we low-level rogues perceive.  We know that there is ample opportunity in high-level dungeons for rogues to shine.    It just takes a long time to finally wind up somewhere where we're valuable as more than damage enhancement - and this can hamper RP as well as Character Development.
 

Talan Va'lash

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2006, 10:47:39 pm »
There are lots of things in NWN that limit your RP in terms of whats acctually possible IG.
 
  Wizards can't scry, you can't play a sailor (that acctually sails anywhere), there arent commoners and nobles walking around town for rogues to pickpocket or for bards to finagle out of their money.
 
  these are just a few examples beause I think they will be enough to communicate the point.
 
  There are lots of characters that have very successfully RPed any and all of the above examples and more, -despite- the fact that they can never do them in the game mechanics outside a GMed quest.
 
  Don't let what you can physically do in the game mechanics touch your RP. Just know that you have to work at RPing something that isn't technically possible a bit harder.
 
  ex. I remember a character that constantly hung about in the trees in hlint or on the roof's of buildings and would jump between them (because he was a crazy tiefling.. or monkeyling or something.) None of this is possible in NWN, yet he did it anyway and it was very colorful RP.
 
  ----
 
  I will support the assertion that there ARE INDEED more traps and locks in the game outside of GMed quests than seems to be the widely held perception at this time.
 
  Send me a tell IG (since this is obviously an ooc query, your character most likely isn't intentionally trying to seek out the dungeon filled with the most deadly traps with intention to make a beeline for it.. er, but if your character is, feel free to ask my characters IC hehe) and I'll clue you in to some west server dungeons with traps. Some of which REQUIRE a rogue. And... I'm not going to say storan's because everyone already knows that one.
 
  ----
 
  Oh and building a good dungeon with traps and such takes time. It hasn't been that long since 1.67 came out and made it fesible (I personally thought most of the respawnable trap systems previously weren't really worth using.) I AM building at least one dungeon that will involve your every fantasy that spawned this thread. However, it is on hold at the moment as my time is occupied with another project this summer along with RL.
 
  As for trap/lock xp: I doubt we will implement this. It surely has no place in NWN as traps and locks are currently implemented.
 
  #1 criteria for gaining xp - how much of a "challenge" something was.
 
  Well, whats a challenge? A challenge is measured by the chance of failure AND the consequences of failure. In NWN traps and locks there is absolutely no consequence for failing to disarm them.
 
  I personally would like to rewrite the whole trap system (including take 20s and theives tools, introducing a consequence for failure) but I haven't and likely won't have time to write it before NWN2 even less get it in Layo before then.
 
 

Faldred

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2006, 04:35:08 am »
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darkstorme - 6/28/2006  10:38 AM

Again, this doesn't address the problem that we low-level rogues perceive.  We know that there is ample opportunity in high-level dungeons for rogues to shine.    It just takes a long time to finally wind up somewhere where we're valuable as more than damage enhancement - and this can hamper RP as well as Character Development.


Should there be more chances for Rogues to use their skills?  In theory, yes, however in the case of NWN (and by extension, Layonara), this becomes more exaggerated not only by the limits of the class progressions, but by the mechanics of the game engine -- the ability to reset traps and locks, for example.

Besides, even at low levels, there's a Rogue class skill that can be used, although I don't see it used often -- SET Trap.  Combined with a typical Rogue's stealth capabilities, Set Trap can help the party ambush the critters, rather than vice-versa.  Of course, you'd either have to clean up your unsprung traps or there'd be some nasty surprises waiting for the next group, but then that plays into your desire for more traps for Rogues to deal with anyway.  :)
 

Thunder Pants

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2006, 07:44:51 am »
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Faldred - 6/29/2006  4:35 AM

Quote
darkstorme - 6/28/2006  10:38 AM

Again, this doesn't address the problem that we low-level rogues perceive.  We know that there is ample opportunity in high-level dungeons for rogues to shine.    It just takes a long time to finally wind up somewhere where we're valuable as more than damage enhancement - and this can hamper RP as well as Character Development.


Should there be more chances for Rogues to use their skills?  In theory, yes, however in the case of NWN (and by extension, Layonara), this becomes more exaggerated not only by the limits of the class progressions, but by the mechanics of the game engine -- the ability to reset traps and locks, for example.

Besides, even at low levels, there's a Rogue class skill that can be used, although I don't see it used often -- SET Trap.  Combined with a typical Rogue's stealth capabilities, Set Trap can help the party ambush the critters, rather than vice-versa.  Of course, you'd either have to clean up your unsprung traps or there'd be some nasty surprises waiting for the next group, but then that plays into your desire for more traps for Rogues to deal with anyway.  :)


the main reasons set trap is hardly used is actually 2 fold, first off, with the exception of a few places there are few strong traps aquiring to use, and the trap crafting currently requires a slightly rediculous amount of ingots (which most rogues can't mine due to lack of STR and weapon feat)

the other reason most don't use it is because using the set traps skill takes the character out of hiding after the trap is set, and one of the last places the rogue wants to be is at the front of the group with all the baddies targeting him when they start their rush
 

Faldred

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2006, 08:08:56 am »
Quote
Thunder Pants - 6/29/2006  10:44 AM

the other reason most don't use it is because using the set traps skill takes the character out of hiding after the trap is set, and one of the last places the rogue wants to be is at the front of the group with all the baddies targeting him when they start their rush


No one said life is without risk.   8)

Seriously, though, is it realistic to sneak right into the midst of a group, set a trap, and then slip away without them noticing?  A more realistic tactic would be you scout... see baddies up ahead... backtrack... lay your trap(s)... and then go back (or send someone a little more durable to go back) to draw the critters into the ambush.

As for trap crafting, that goes into CNR discussion -- if the availabilty of traps is really what's keeping people from using them, rather than playing style, then changes can be requested to make traps easier to obtain -- either via stores, CNR recipe changes, or drop frequency changes.

Also, the availability issue should encourage Rogues to try recovering, rather than disarming traps when found, which would mean that they would want to go on trips to the few places where traps are available, just to fill up on inventory, making finding a Rogue to do, say Storan's, much easier for everyone else.
 

darkstorme

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2006, 08:13:20 am »
Quote
Talan Va'lash - In NWN traps and locks there is absolutely no consequence for failing to disarm them.


There is, in fact, a consequence to failure in disarming a trap.  Locks, no, but I didn't recommend an XP reward be attached to lock successes.  If a disarm (or Recover) attempt on a trap misses the DC by more than 10, it's a Spectacular Failure, and the trap triggers immediately.  (I'm looking into making it happen with a 5-point miss, to make it a bit more of a dicey proposition, but the threat remains.)  This is part of the DnD 3.0 ruleset - think of it as the Rogue's hand slipping, and falling across the tripwire he was about to loose the tension from.

Granted, as I said in an earlier post, this does not equate with the threat inherent to facing down an orc.  But if it's a sufficiently deadly trap, the rogue is still putting his life (or health) on the line in the disarm attempt - and the experience thus gained is surely greater than that acquired through baking bread or fishing with rod and tackle.  In my equation at the beginning of this thread, I would expect c to be low - no more than 2, certainly - and probably the term could be removed altogether.  The key is that even were a novice thief to spend all his time disarming traps a mentor set as practice, this would leave him better able to find things in the field.  So, respectfully, there IS suitable "challenge" in disarming traps to make it worthy of an XP reward.  I've implemented this system retroactively in my in-progress module (currently at 112 areas), and I feel it will make the much-overlooked Rogue slightly more popular, as well as making more sense.

Your RP comment is appreciated, but misplaced.  I was not saying that my character could not sneak around all he wanted.  I was saying that game mechanics force my character to take a role on the frontlines of combat, flanking and using sneak attack extensively.  An alternate, trapped route would negate the need for substantial combat participation, and my character would not have to be involved in things that he would be uncomfortable doing.  (Direct combat.  He has no objection to meteing out justice to those that deserve it, but striking from darkness against one adversary at a time is different than doing fighter support.)  So while Kell can be as stealthy as he likes, he would not be much appreciated on quests if he didn't wade in with the rest.

Now, granted, you can't be a sailor who sails, or a scrying wizard (though I've seen limited implementations of both  - the latter, far more successfully), but these are not intrinsic to the character class (again, the latter is more intrinsic than the former).  There is no Seafaring skill (despite its prescence in the PHB), nor any of the "expert" skills that would lend themselves to seafaring, so it would be a custom class, surely.  Similarly, the lack of scrying is what takes all the teeth out of being a Diviner in NWN.  But the Rogue class is built with the ability to disarm traps (as are all the classes, if they're willing to invest some points in cross-classing), because traps are an established part of dungeon-delving (particularly by whip-bearing archaeologists).  I would argue that the comparison of a lack of opportunity to use a skill with the lack of opportunity to use a nonexistent skill or spell is fractious, at best.  All can be equally RPed, this is true, but when dungeon-delving in a party, individuals will look askance at the rogue who sneaks ahead and claims to have cleared the path of nonexistent traps or deadfalls.

In addition (not to belabour the point), the argument was not that there do not exist dungeons that require a Rogue's assistance - merely that for the first 10 levels of a Rogue's life, there are precious few that the Rogue is likely to survive, particularly given our sparse HD.  Too many times I've gone into fairly mundane dungeons with a party, quite successfully... and my character and a mage short on spells would be the ones to face the Soul Mother, because one successful hit was enough to finish us, and respawns/lures occured such that our characters were IoI, rather than the fighters/barbarians/anyone who can take a hit and roll with it.  Now, if the threat were primarily traps, and then the Rogue could safely hang back and pick ranged targets while the fighter and spell-hurling types deal with all that is big and goes "Thwack*crunch*" in the night, then a Rogue could feel truly useful, rather than particularly vulnerable.  Regardless, it's the low-level types that suffer - as has been abundantly (and unarguably) made clear, high-level Rogues are in hog's heaven. *grins*

Faldred - setting traps is one of my favourite techniques when mining for copper - that way, if I must be disturbed, I get to watch some hapless critter get zapped while I put away my pick. ;) Edit: posts come in surges, it seems.  Laying traps in ambush is definitely the way to go.  As you aptly pointed out, it'd be unrealistic to set a trap in the midst of a group of enemies.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2006, 06:55:27 pm »
Why did interest die in this topic? I rather like the idea of having a few more traps around Layo.
 

Eight-Bit

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2006, 11:31:25 pm »
I'm pretty sure when Dorg said 'Wait until NWN 2, we're working on it.', is when everyone backed away on the subject.
 

Dorganath

RE: All the Trappings
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2006, 06:37:22 am »
Heh....well that's kinda two answers there.
  First, respawning traps takes a slightly different system than what is used for the doors and chests that was added a few months ago. So on that one, it's planned, so just hang tight.
  On "wait until NWN2"....we actually do not know if the functions that support respawning traps will be in for the initial release of NWN2. We also cannot really even speculate on what we can/can't do until the game is released.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2006, 07:47:12 am »
Cool... *Grins.* Every time I wonder about an idea, I hear "it's in the works," and a little while later, BAM, it's ingame.

You guys rock.