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Author Topic: All the Trappings  (Read 1258 times)

darkstorme

All the Trappings
« on: June 27, 2006, 01:09:33 pm »
Given that this was becoming an OT focus in General Discussion, I thought I'd make a post thread about it here, where it might do more good.  I'm also copying the pertinent comments here:  
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Niles09 -- Layo has a BIG lack of traps and locks. Layo generally fullfill(sic) what I expect of a dnd universe, or roleplaying universe, except the sentence: "deep dungeons filled with monsters and deadly traps." ...  
 
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SquareKnot -- If all the rogue skills aren't useful until you either go on a quest or become 15th level and travel with a large, high level group to a formidible dungeon, then there is a balancing issue here. There is a shortage of opportunities for rogues to use their skills. Can you imagine telling a mage "You can only use magic from 3 schools unless on a quest or when you hit high level?" ... The only thing that makes a rogue special is the skills. [In rebuttal to one of Dorgonath's comments.]
 
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Stephen Zuckerman -- In the Crypts, Rogues are useless. The whole undead not having vital areas thing. There are no traps, no locks, and nothing to Sneak Attack. They're about as useful as a Brownie Fighter with a focus in Archery. ... Seeing a small XP reward for disarming a trap would be nice, too. What good is "practice" if you're not learning anything? You get XP for killing something. You get gold for killing something. How different is that from recovering a trap and getting a little bit of XP, plus the trap?
 I've included all that I feel to be reasonably pertiment and non-spurious from the original thread.  A number of Niles09's posts, while well-meaning, seemed to ignore Dorganath's responses.  I also feel, however, that Squareknot's analogy between wizards and rogues is apt, but not in the way that it was taken.  It was apparently taken as meaning that rogues ought to be as powerful as wizards - and on an open field, this just isn't true.  However, what SquareKnot was implying, from my perspective, was "how would you like half of what makes your character class what it is to be made useless until you're 12th level, when you'll finally have some use for it?  Even if a Rogue isn't a thief, they serve as scouts, clearing the way for the rest of the party.  With that in mind, even simple areas like the Hlint crypts ought to have traps that seriously threaten those that step on them unawares, in such a way that they'd want a rogue along - in the same way that you'd want a spellcaster along for a major battle.  In reality, there ought to be more traps than creatures in most crypts.  Which is cheaper to put in for your basic evil wizard/tyrant/lich?  Some sort of monster that requires upkeep, or a trap that will sit where it is until some hapless adventurer steps on the pressure plate/breaks the line of light/opens the door?  Finally, SZ's other point, that of an XP reward for traps, would be fairly easy to retroactively implement (bit by bit, though, most likely, if they're not dyamically placed traps), but should be (obviously) significantly less than would be given for a monster of equal threat level, for the simple fact that the trap isn't trying to hit you as you disarm it.  However, if the traps are sufficiently deadly to make a fighter pause, they'd probably kill a Rogue, so the risk of Spectacular Failure provides sufficient risk to justify reward on a successful disarm.  Something like:   // in the "On Disarm" event of the XP-granting traps  void main() {  object oPC = GetLastDisarmed(); if (GetIsPC(oPC) { int XPGranted = FloatToInt(GetTrapDisarmDC(this) * c / GetCharacterLevel(oPC)); // where c is some balancing constant GiveXPToCreature(oPC, XPGranted); } }  
 
Anyway, that's my two copper pieces.  Anyone else?  Rebuttals?  Praise?  Adulation?
 

Weeblie

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2006, 01:25:48 pm »
Just a random thought...

Traps everywhere would result in that fighters would have no chance at all going anywhere without a rogue, but only being a minor annoyance for clerics/bards/wizards/sorcers as they have a nifty spell called "Find Traps" that gives a nice bonus to "Disable Traps"-skill. :)
 

darkstorme

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2006, 01:37:08 pm »
They needn't be everywhere, nor impossible to detect for anyone with a half-decent WIS or Search skill... but they should still actually put the fear of [insert deity of choice here] into fighters.
 

Niles09

RE: All the Trappings
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2006, 01:50:31 pm »
I did most certainly not ignore Dorganath, he kept mentoined there was four traps in Hlint, and I said thats just not enough, and when you moves outside Hlint it becomes worse. In respone to Halas I have indeed explored many dungeons and I have yet to experience a truly dnd dungeon. Secondly as I already mentoined traps doesnt have to be advanced mechanisms, the ratboy could easily make some snares, generally the red light goblins and the kobolds in their respective caves could do the same.

In response to Weeblie, it doesnt have to be uber deadly traps. Just something that would take some hit points. Sure it would make it more diffucult for the fighter, but when have an rogue been able to single through the same dungeons as an equally level fighter?
 

Dorganath

RE: All the Trappings
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2006, 02:03:59 pm »
*sighs* I never said there were four traps. I said there were several places in Hlint alone, and NOT within the crypts or sewers, that have multiple traps and locks, including chests with treasure, upon which rogues may apply their trades. Let me repeat: They are NOT in caves, dungeons, crypts or sewers in or near Hlint.
  Whether you feel that is "enough" or not...*shrugs* we're not going to litter the town with traps.
  Similar situations exist in other towns and cities...again, not necessarily in dungeons or crypts or whatever.
  I'm now officially done with saying any more on this.
 

Stephen_Zuckerman

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2006, 02:06:56 pm »
No, he said there are four examples of traps OR locks in the Hlint area.

I actually plan to go looking for these things.

But aside from that... Let's have some more tangle traps. Put 'em right in the boss chamber... Storan's, anyone? That can have a devastating effect on a battle. Or a few more spike traps of equal DC to the dungeon. That one down in the sewers (that isn't set to reset, btw) can take a nice chunk of HP from a low-level character and totally change the outcome of the boss battle.

Besides, with the changing state of the world, you'd think more people would lock up their valuables.

I'd much prefer to see, for example, lootable houses (for those whose alignment doesn't quiver in rage at the thought) as added content, rather than, say, persuade options added to conversation trees.
 

darkstorme

Re: All the Trappings
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2006, 02:10:40 pm »
My apologies, Niles.  What I meant was that you kept away at the same point.  This is greater clarification, which is good.

And I would argue that traps, on the whole, should take more hit points than they do currently - otherwise, a fighter, with HP to spare, won't even hesitate before walking into an obviously-trapped door.  And I absolutely agree with your suggestions on where they could be planted in the Hlint vicinity, as well.  Nice, indoor areas, where traps make sense.  The crypts, perhaps less - but then we deal with the problem SZ outlined - that of the Rogue's utter uselessness down in the boneyard.

While I'm not aiming for utter dependance on rogues, at the moment, they are dispensible until high level dungeons, at least, when a) they needn't be, and b) the situation really would CALL for traps.  Places like the Haven mines.. they have an Ogre Mage down there.  He'd surely supervise the construction/planting of deadfalls and dart traps as part of the fortifications as the ogres dug in.

Edit -- wow, the comments are just flying in!

Tangle traps are good, especially in areas where the boss would set them up, to inconvenience those who break into his inner sanctum - but for the areas where no one is INTENDED to get in (an area, say, where the boss doesn't care whether he fights the adventurers or not), the traps should scare an adventurer's insurance guild, plain and simple.  *grins*

And further consideration still....

As Dorganath suggests, littering towns with traps is ridiculous.  The situation in BG and BGII was insane - normal households do not have sophisticated acid traps waiting, just in case a raving lunatic breaks into the house with the intention of taking the silver.  Similarly, lootable houses ought to have a chance of homemakers being home.. in which case, if the hapless thief is spotted, he can be apprehended... there are many possibilities here.  (And this is not intended as a way of heaping work on the developers - if anyone here has a definite idea, I expect to see a solid outline of how it could be easily implemented! *grins*)
 

Dorganath

RE: All the Trappings
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2006, 02:15:40 pm »
Until the recent update from Bioware, it was not possible to "respawn" a trap without it triggering every time you step over it....which most people agree is a bad thing.
  This is not something we've taken advantage of yet, but it is something we are aware of and at some point will move toward where it seems appropriate.
 

Pen N Popper

RE: All the Trappings
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2006, 02:21:35 pm »
One interesting idea for future design is to make a long way and a short way through dungeons/mines/crypts. The short way would be trapped and the long way would be free of traps.
  For example, towards the bottom of Haven mines there is a long snaking passage that must be run through to get deeper. A shortcut in this case with a trap would make it useful to bring a rogue along. Alternatively, the long way may involve no danger (no XP) or lots of danger (chance at death).
  Even in straight hallways, there could be traps ina pattern that could be walked around (if spotted or memorized). For example, trap on left edge, then right, left, right, etc. with room to get past in a snaking pattern. You could go through safely but it would be slower than having a rogue clear the way. Perhaps there is a dangerous situation at the far end that having a safe path for retreat would be beneficial.
  Another thing is to make doors unbashable but have them not reset when unlocked. Again in Haven mines there are several doors which are simply bashed down by the first that enter the area. They don't respawn. A rogue would have to be brought along the first time after server reset to unlock it. Fighters/miners would then have to decide if they risk going down to find them locked or bring a rogue along just in case. Once open then they'd stay open.
  These ideas I put forth for future consideration. The class is fine now if you travel in a party, in my opinion.
 

twu

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    Re: All the Trappings
    « Reply #9 on: June 27, 2006, 02:21:58 pm »
    On the issue of tanks just walking through traps, would it be possible to put in traps with more secondary effects so that it is a little more inconvenient to just walk through it?  For instance, negative energy traps that drain a level or two.  Sure, you can walk through it, but it will also mean a potion of restoration.  Or maybe poison/disease traps would work too.

    On the issue of mages having spells with similar effects, I'll say this.  I played a wizard through many trapped & locked areas meant for rogues on another server by using find traps, knock, and my familiar to "tank" traps for me.  It was totally cheap.  I was actually a happy when I can to a dungeon that had been specifically designed for rogues.  By this, I mean:
       1)  Knock spells only worked on about 40% of the locks there
       2)  The strongest traps reset themselves, so that only a successful disarm trap roll allowed you to remove it and pass through unscathed.  ("Fluffkins, thank you for your sacrifice..." *strolls through*zap*dead*)


    Just some things to think about.
     

    Weeblie

    Re: All the Trappings
    « Reply #10 on: June 27, 2006, 02:46:55 pm »
    Heh, in my own experience, the Knock spell is more and less useless here on Layo. Nearly all locked doors I've seen are un-knockable. :)
     

    Niles09

    RE: All the Trappings
    « Reply #11 on: June 27, 2006, 02:48:13 pm »
    sorry but I do not recall myself saying the houses should be trapped. About the house in Hlint to loot, I havent touched it since a GM said it was banable just like a player house. Im talking about the caves around Hlint. Goblins, kobolds and all those sneaky creatures are experts in rude combat.

    If you want put up teh amount of traps, fine, but dont ask for more rouges then, cause as it is now, the advantages of the other classes are far far greater.
     

    Weeblie

    Re: All the Trappings
    « Reply #12 on: June 27, 2006, 03:17:25 pm »
    But we are back to square number one again, now...

    The advantages of the other classes might be greater, but a rogue is a must-have on DM quests.

    My character has died 5 times on quests and 3 of them was due to traps (epic traps hurts badly!). A party without a rogue (or anyone else who can disable traps) in a dungeon full with them... Well... Heh... You can easily imagine what happens!

    Rogue might not be the best class in "everyday life". But, they do really shine when you stand in the dungeons with the ultra high DC lock or 100+ damage traps. And, no, these dungeons aren't exclusively on DM quests. I know at least 3 mid-level places that you absolutely have to have a rogue to visit.

    I think PenNPopper's idea of having a "long but safe route" and a "short but trapped one" is a very good idea. It would need a rebuild of the areas though, so I think that idea would better be saved for NWN2.

    Edit: Oh, heh... Rogues might be weak at low levels, yes... But, that's why most people multiclass them! Fighter/Rogue anyone? The best of two worlds... ;)
     

    Thunder Pants

    RE: All the Trappings
    « Reply #13 on: June 27, 2006, 03:20:28 pm »
    Quote
    Niles09 - 6/27/2006  2:48 PM

    sorry but I do not recall myself saying the houses should be trapped. About the house in Hlint to loot, I havent touched it since a GM said it was banable just like a player house. Im talking about the caves around Hlint. Goblins, kobolds and all those sneaky creatures are experts in rude combat.

    If you want put up teh amount of traps, fine, but dont ask for more rouges then, cause as it is now, the advantages of the other classes are far far greater.


    i don't know what DM told you that, but Leanthar has said time and again that they are there to be lootable (granted the rewards in thoses chests is a little subpar but it's something)
     

    SquareKnot

    RE: All the Trappings
    « Reply #14 on: June 27, 2006, 03:32:14 pm »
    Thanks, darkstorme. Your interpretation of my original analogy is exactly right. Thanks for putting it so much better than I did.

    And I also have to say that I really like Pen N Popper's idea about the either/or routes in dungeons. You can either plough through a horde of ogres OR disarm a trap and go around. It doesn't lock your party into a "must have a rogue" situation, but it does create a "sure be nice to have a rogue right about now" situation.

    Good ideas all around, really. This is turning out to be a fairly productive thread.
     

    Stephen_Zuckerman

    Re: All the Trappings
    « Reply #15 on: June 27, 2006, 03:35:49 pm »
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    Weeblie - 6/27/2006  6:17 PM

    Edit: Oh, heh... Rogues might be weak at low levels, yes... But, that's why most people multiclass them! Fighter/Rogue anyone? The best of two worlds... ;)


    So you're saying "Oh, sure, Rogues are weak, but that's why you shouldn't single-class them! We're not about to change anything for those icky icky single-class rogues."

    I'm not being antagonistic here, it's just that more and more, I feel almost punished for having chosed to level my character as a Rogue/Duelist. The bugs with the Duelist class have been stated to "not be worth the Team's time," according to more-or-less reliable hearsay, and, well, we all know how weak low-to-mid-level Rogues are. It's like being a Diviner. Not so useful, mechanically.

    I know that Layonara was designed to be for GMed quests, but there are a lot of players who have a hard time getting to them consistently. I'm one of those. I've signed up for probably twice as many quests as I've ended up able to attend... And because of that, my character has progressed, mechanically, very very slowly. I just want to get to Duelist before the character wipe. That's all, but... I can't see that happening if my only real options are partying up with a lower-level group and going somewhere I could solo with Pyyran, or partying up with a much higher-level group and muling XP while trying desperately to be useful without getting slaughtered. As for equal-level groups... The characters at the same level as Pyyran seem to be in the same boat, with nowhere to vent thier frustrations outside of DM quests.

    Are there just character types that are unfeasible on Layonara?
     

    Dorganath

    Re: All the Trappings
    « Reply #16 on: June 27, 2006, 04:54:58 pm »
    Quote
    Stephen_Zuckerman - 6/27/2006  5:35 PM   ...according to more-or-less reliable hearsay....
     Just not sure how to respond to that.... *shakes head*
      Oh...and no one is "punishing" you for choosing the Deulist class...
      *sighs and walks off*
     

    Weeblie

    Re: All the Trappings
    « Reply #17 on: June 27, 2006, 06:07:11 pm »
    Quote
    Stephen_Zuckerman - 6/28/2006  12:35 AM

    Quote
    Weeblie - 6/27/2006  6:17 PM

    Edit: Oh, heh... Rogues might be weak at low levels, yes... But, that's why most people multiclass them! Fighter/Rogue anyone? The best of two worlds... ;)


    So you're saying "Oh, sure, Rogues are weak, but that's why you shouldn't single-class them! We're not about to change anything for those icky icky single-class rogues."


    Am I? Heh... :)

    I thought I was only saying exactly what I said: What other people do right now to counter the bad sides with rogues is to multiclass.

    A suggestion of what one can do to quickly "fix" it. Nothing about "you shouldn't make a pure rogue" or that "nothing will be changed" (it's not my decision whether things will change or not). I'm actually planning to make a pure rogue myself one day (as soon as I can find the time and interest to write down the submission) just because there are so few of them.

    In my opinion, rogues aren't weak. They are like bards. Their strength differs from the others classes.
     

    Stephen_Zuckerman

    Re: All the Trappings
    « Reply #18 on: June 27, 2006, 06:43:43 pm »
    Dorg: Didn't say people were "punishing me" for it, just that it felt like it. We all know how unreliable feelings are.

    Weebs: I was mainly making a tounge-in-cheek response to what I assumed to be an equally tounge-in-cheek comment about never single-classing rogues.

    Still, the question really does stand as to whether some character types just aren't feasible to play in Layonara. I mean, if the general consensus is that there's no place for a swashbucklery Rogue, then I'd like to know now, so I can invest more time in a class that I can take at least to the culmination of my plans for the character.
     

    darkstorme

    Re: All the Trappings
    « Reply #19 on: June 27, 2006, 06:57:28 pm »
    I love the word 'swashbucklery'.  Is it an adjective?  Is it a noun? *laughs*

    Regardless, Kell's pure Rogue (or one day, maybe, Rogue/Shadowdancer) because that's the way his backstory laid him out to be.  He's not got any inborn gift for magic, he doesn't have his mother's voice, he doesn't trust gods... he's a rogue.  It's just a pity that he's so useless in parties until those high-level dungeons come about.  With suitable preparation, he can hold his own - sniping to add damage to allies' attacks, tossing explosives and choking powder to disable enemies when the party is retreating, setting traps, and whatnot, but it would be nice to serve as a scout and not as damage enhancement for once.

    After all, Kell's character calls for him to be vaguely stealth-obsessed... and he's had precious little opportunity to show that.  The ideal situation (which, due to a lack of time-overlap with GM-run quests, has not yet occurred) would be one in which, with enemies all in close proximity, Kell had to sneak ahead of the party to disable the traps that would make them easy pickings for the waiting adversary.

    Regardless, the two-route technique is nice.  Also, something like the Chesspiece Puzzle from the OC would be nice to see from time to time - something that can be avoided using intellect - or a Rogue can take it apart.
     

     

    anything