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Author Topic: Earth genasi / fire giant spawn - Mount Thil near Undead Resting Place, below ledge  (Read 764 times)

Filatus

Description: At the area, Thil Mountains there is an Earth Genasi spawn that appears between the destroyed Tower, and the Undead Resting Place, on a ledge further down. If one engages said Fire giants, the earth genasi lock on to you and come chasing across the entire map to get out on your way out. We went into the Undead Resting Place when we first saw it happen, but on our way out the same incident repeated itself.

One of the fire giant spawns in question is bugged as well, in that they are fenced in as they spawn. What happens is that the sorcerors start spamming spells that reach  without even being near you. Perhaps this is how the earth genasi lock on to us without line of sight.

We tried to leave but as we neared exit of the map, the earth genasi were upon us, taking us by surprising, ending in full party wipe.


Location: Mount Thil, near Undead Resting Place.

Verified:

Reproducable: Happened twice.
 

Dorganath

Re: Earth genasi / fire giant spawn - Mount Thil near Undead Res
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2011, 05:10:23 pm »
I'll review the creatures, but AI/NPC perception is more than just line-of-sight.

Under review.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: Earth genasi / fire giant spawn - Mount Thil near Undead Res
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2011, 05:34:15 pm »
As per what Dorg said, I am also fairly certain that the Bioware perception part of the AI is working like designed.

As for the design of the spawns, that's a different question, and though it has been a while since I actually messed with the giants up there, I do recall something funky about how they spawned behind the gate, though it didn't dawn on me at the time that there might be a problem (perhaps because we survived the last time I was there?). The spawn could probably use a tweak so the giants don't actually get stuck, because while the spell spamming is annoying for the PCs, a bunch of giants clustered nice and close together is also easy pickings with AOE spells used by PCs against the giants.

I know the Earth Genasi have certain perceptive abilities and are placed in that part of the map for a reason (by design, though that design is not to trek across the map to chase PCs heard fighting on another mountainside), and I'm not sure if there is anywhere else that makes sense to place them, or any way you could change their spawn to make it so that they don't trek around the map and surprise attack PCs at the cave transition (which is rather mean, because you can't see them coming at all, and they aren't really supposed to be in that part of the map).

Perhaps raising the platform upon which the giants spawn by one more level would give enough space so as not to kick up the genasi.

These are just thoughts and further insight meant to be helpful, just to be clear. Dorganath or another admin will of course make the final ruling on this.
 

wild_down_under

Re: Earth genasi / fire giant spawn - Mount Thil near Undead Res
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2011, 08:53:50 pm »
This has happened to me several times. If you engage that particular group of fire giants right next to the group of earth genasi, the earth genasi will target you. Although the two groups (fire giants and earth genasi) are next to each other, the fire giants are on the top of the hill while the earth genasi are at the bottom of the hill.

The way I interpret that setup is as followed. You are fighting a group of fire giants at the top of the hill. At the bottom of the hill is the group of earth genasi. They see and hear the fighting so they run up to check out what's going on. That's the situation you have described. You engage the fire giants at the top of the hill. You cannot expect the earth genasi not to hear your fighting and run up to check out the situation. As for the purpose/design of the area, I do not know if that was the intent.

As for the auto target of the earth genasi, they will autolock you for a very long time. Even if you leave the area (go to a different transition), they are still there. They do not despawn unless it's an extremely long time where no PC is around that area. I am guessing you engaged the fire giants not knowing the earth genasi were on their way up. Then, you proceeded to enter the crypt and on your way out the group of earth genasi jumped on your group. *wince*
 

Dorganath

Re: Earth genasi / fire giant spawn - Mount Thil near Undead Res
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2011, 10:29:09 pm »
Well that's just it.  The target-and-follow of Bioware's AI for NPC is pretty common and certainly not related specifically to our custom genasi.  I've seen a slow-moving ooze track a PC across two areas (meaning the PC was 2 areas away) because that's how the AI and path finding works.  There was nothing special or "buggy" about it.  The ooze had all the default scripts...same as any other creature.  The difference really is: 1) the CR of the creature(s) and 2) whether or not players know they're being followed.

Regardless, I'm still going to review the creatures to see if there's anything unusual about them or their placement.  Whether it's unusual or buggy remains to be seen.
 

davidhoff

Re: Earth genasi / fire giant spawn - Mount Thil near Undead Res
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2011, 10:36:22 pm »
One of the issues is that the earth gensai are hard to see from the Giant platform, and if you don't know they are there you might miss them below.  Also, even if you know they are there, its hard to tell if you've agravated them because they are out of plain view for the most part.  So, then it can be a surprise when you go across the bridge to the next AT and after engaging the air gensai for a couple minutes, here come the earth gensai run'n to help their kin out.
 

Dorganath

Re: Earth genasi / fire giant spawn - Mount Thil near Undead Res
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2011, 10:44:59 pm »
That's not really an "issue" as such.  There's nothing that says PCs must always have the upper hand. Our modules are littered with "ambushes" by design.  These are intentional and made to be more of a challenge, whether you know about it or not.

Whether a spawn is known, obvious or otherwise visible from all vantage points has never been a qualification as a "bug."
 

davidhoff

Re: Earth genasi / fire giant spawn - Mount Thil near Undead Res
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2011, 11:06:10 pm »
*coughs* well my comments about the gensai were more along the lines of Milt's observations about possibly relocating the gensai or raising the platform to avoid them from chasing PC's, not so much about it being a bug.  Understood that if its an intended "ambush", then by all means let them rage.  Although, I do recall certain spawns in Sharawood being moved to avoid an ambush type scenario near an AT transition.
 

Dorganath

Re: Earth genasi / fire giant spawn - Mount Thil near Undead Res
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2011, 01:44:11 am »
Spawns too close to a transition are one thing.  Spawns that do what they're programmed to do and follow PCs, whether the PCs know it or not, are completely different.
 

Dorganath

Re: Earth genasi / fire giant spawn - Mount Thil near Undead Res
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2011, 10:30:04 pm »
OK, I've given this some review.  Results are below.


Quote from: Filatus
Description: At the area, Thil Mountains there is  an Earth Genasi spawn that appears between the destroyed Tower, and the  Undead Resting Place, on a ledge further down. If one engages said Fire  giants, the earth genasi lock on to you and come chasing across the  entire map to get out on your way out. We went into the Undead Resting  Place when we first saw it happen, but on our way out the same incident  repeated itself.

As best I can tell, there is nothing unusual about this behavior.  Bioware's perception and path-finding AI seem to be doing their thing as  designed.  Line-of-sight is only one means of detecting a potential  target, and without giving too much away, those Genasi have some pretty  good perception skills.  They're going all the way across/around the map  because of the map's design. If they were going to try to get at you,  they'd keep at it until they could reach you.

Quote
One of the fire giant spawns in question is bugged as well,  in that they are fenced in as they spawn. What happens is that the  sorcerors start spamming spells that reach  without even being near you.  Perhaps this is how the earth genasi lock on to us without line of  sight.

Spells have ranges, that fence is very see-through.  I'm not sure that's  "bugged" as you say. If there is something in particular about this  behavior that you think is wrong, please be more specific.

Quote
We tried to leave but as we neared exit of the map, the earth  genasi were upon us, taking us by surprising, ending in full party wipe.  

My sympathies for your wipe, but this general area is intended to be one of the "endpoints" of the server, and as such, its challenges are meant to be high.  I don't particularly see a tenacious opponent that tracks you across the area as being out of line.


Quote from: miltonyorkcastle
As per what Dorg said, I am also fairly  certain that the Bioware perception part of the AI is working like  designed.


As said above, this appears to be the case.

Quote
As for the design of the spawns, that's a different question, and though  it has been a while since I actually messed with the giants up there, I  do recall something funky about how they spawned behind the gate,  though it didn't dawn on me at the time that there might be a problem  (perhaps because we survived the last time I was there?). The spawn  could probably use a tweak so the giants don't actually get stuck,  because while the spell spamming is annoying for the PCs, a bunch of  giants clustered nice and close together is also easy pickings with AOE  spells used by PCs against the giants.

I've considered that in my review.  The ledge upon which they spawn is not particularly large, and there are other giants that spawn close to that same spot. Moving them outside the fence may well cluster too many fire giants too close together, making the threat level even higher than it is now. I'm not yet sure it's warranted to change it really.  I'm not opposed either.

Quote
I know the Earth Genasi have certain perceptive abilities and are placed  in that part of the map for a reason (by design, though that design is  not to trek across the map to chase PCs heard fighting on another  mountainside), and I'm not sure if there is anywhere else that makes  sense to place them, or any way you could change their spawn to make it  so that they don't trek around the map and surprise attack PCs at the  cave transition (which is rather mean, because you can't see them coming  at all, and they aren't really supposed to be in that part of the map).

In truth, you're fighting very close to where they stand, so that they may try to come after a group should not be surprising.

Quote
Perhaps raising the platform upon which the giants spawn by one more  level would give enough space so as not to kick up the genasi.

If it were only that simple... Tileset dynamics being what they are, "simply" raising up the ledge would actually require expansion and/or redesign of a significant portion of the area at the least, if not the whole thing.  Bioware's AI is doing what it does.


Quote from: davidhoff
*coughs* well my comments about the gensai were more along the lines of Milt's observations about possibly relocating the gensai or raising the platform to avoid them from chasing PC's, not so much about it being a bug.  Understood that if its an intended "ambush", then by all means let them rage.  Although, I do recall certain spawns in Sharawood being moved to avoid an ambush type scenario near an AT transition.

To be clear, no spawns are placed close enough to a transition to be able to jump a PC or group coming through an area transition.  The issue here is simply one of the AI behaving in a way that it was designed. What can be surprising is that they are persistent enough to path all the way to you. In a way, it makes sense, as denizens of such a place would be familiar with the terrain.

So, right now, I'm not seeing justification for a bug. I am seeing an unexpected challenge, but that is not the same thing.
 

Filatus

Re: Earth genasi / fire giant spawn - Mount Thil near Undead Res
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2011, 09:46:45 am »
Thanks for looking into it.
 

 

anything