A few thoughts...

[Script Wrecked]

With all that said, one has to consider that in quite a lot of quests, the NPCs are not of epic power. Actually, the NPCs might not be powerful at all. It's just that if one attends a quest aimed at epic characters... well... one kind of has to expect the baddies to be of epic proportions also. Take a random quest aimed more towards low/mid level (say "Pseudonym - Stand Alone Quest") and one suddenly notices the NPCs are generally rather weak to nature...

Even though they might not be epic, LynnJuniper's "grievance" stands, specifically if you have been on any of the aforementioned quests involving Pseudonym's Menestas protagonist.

While it may be annoying that your own spellcaster will never be able to shrink things down so small for a "Fantastic Voyage" type journey through one end of a cat and out the other, it was fun trip for the players, if not the characters.

[lonnarin]

Even though they might not be epic, LynnJuniper's "grievance" stands, specifically if you have been on any of the aforementioned quests involving Pseudonym's Menestas protagonist.

While it may be annoying that your own spellcaster will never be able to shrink things down so small for a "Fantastic Voyage" type journey through one end of a cat and out the other, it was fun trip for the players, if not the characters.

ARGH! even more reasons to curse my EST schedule for not ever being awake for Pseudo's quests!  I always seem to miss out on the really good ones.

[iceyfire]

Sorcerers, combined with a level of monk, and 10 levels of RDD are crazy powerful , thats one thing they introduced to help balance out the fun factor of casters, but that obviously does not apply here since the rules behind changing class, and taking levels in classes makes it very hard to go with the concept of powerbuilding a character.

Thats one thing that should be remembered, a lot of the characters on the server are built around RP reasoning rather then Powerbuilt cookie cutting.
I have made mistakes with Sabrissia i admit, but i still enjoy playing her for the rp aspect, fact is im a evocation specialist, and i find i cant hit anything at all with my spells so even when we enter some new areas with magic enabled, it gets mass dispelled, and it does not hit at all, especially places like that tower, cough cough.

Kinda boring walking behind melee'ers at times up those mountains, and well tanks dont wont to go anywhere else these days heh, so its ethier sit around and do nothing, RP, or walk behind a bunch of fighters healing them occassionally.

Needless to say this is why i started a new character, fora bit of a change and a class i can actually count on later on.

[LynnJuniper]

to Counter myself, because I'm weird like that:

A GM, knows what his characters can do. There's less confrontation, less conversation, none of that

//I want to try this _______. Its not neccesarily mechanics and not neccesarily a spell, but I think its a good idea can I give it a go?

No, that all happens split second, in the GM's head, where there isnt a bunch of white green blue aqua text flying around rapid speed crazy.

Makes it easier for the flow of the quest; also makes it easier for the GM to know what his characters can and can't do.

I just wish that a good Lore roll would give us the general information on "Random Quest NPC" that ain't so random, and that everyone should technically have heard of atleast in passing. It'd be cool.

And yeah >_> PC Necros should so be able to raise an army of undead and attack a small city...

Seriously, I know where my greviance spouted from, and weather it was one event or a series of events I've pinpointed one of my biggest problems as a player, and I'm going to use this thread as an apology now (Since I started it HAH!)

Sorry to Chongo and the people I've quested and partied with in the past.

I have this sick, sometimes random and unjustified desire, urge, need to prove myself to myself and other people. Doing it with wits, in a game; kind of sad but true. "Hey, look, while everyone else seems unsure, I'm going to do this and save the day. To Be The Hero Is All I Ask". I guess a lot of people want to be the center of attention, but I really let it get to me on quests.. a lot. And I'm sorry. My character is built around RP, and I , without being arrogant, Can think outside the NWN box. And Often do so...without telling the rest of the party..

It's led to serious problems last year...its led to serious problems recently. But hey...the first part of getting over it is admitting its there..

So here's hoping, and while I'm at it, any suggestions of what I can do with this silly need to proove myself good/smart enough that won't take away from any one else's fun?

As for Rhynn...yeah, I put a bit too much of myself into her sometimes...I want to change, but should she in RP or should I keep playing her this way? She'll always be the angry , dry, sarcastic person she is..

But seriously...suggestions? (You can PM em or put them here I really don't mind my problem being out there, or else I wouldnt've stated it).

Sorry for the off topic rant: But I respect your input

[Acacea]

Epic Characters...They do epic things...and for that, people know who they are...Following?

So Why is it , that 'epic NPCs' (not the named ones even, Milara, Selian, etc) Can do all of these fancy things that PCs couldn't even dream of or try...but no one's ever heard of them? I understand quest progression...but it kind of miffs me when some random nobody from some quest that will either die in the end or isn't plot eccencial can do things that no PC will ever be able to directly accomplish....but their name isn't even on the maps?

Fact of life, NPCs 'cheat'. Or seem to. In varying manners, some unfair and some simply misunderstood and interpreted. The GM quests that I've always preferred are pretty open on what someone wants to try magically. Some horrendous consequences have resulted, but anything and everything can be attempted and possibly succeeded with preparation. They also rolled for their NPCs and didn't assume success. We saw some NPCs do some things none of us had ever managed to do...and we also had never attempted them, as there was no previous occasion to do so. And we had no experience whatsoever with x activity which was NPC's only specialty.

Likewise, some NPCs have special abilities, and only those special abilities, that are not defined by mechanics, like if they belong to some blessed sect of whomever but we can't really allow PCs to do that for x reason.

In other cases, though I wager much less often than one might assume, a GM delights in being a GM to be free of all those silly little restrictions on his characters, and abandons them when making his NPCs because they're more fun that way, but doesn't allow PCs to do x because that's 'against the rules' or 'not appropriate' or, you know, 'would ruin the plot.' Even then it's far more likely that its simply for convenience than trying to make you feel bad.

This topic is closely related to the Elminster syndrome, I guess, where NPCs become more important/powerful/prevalent than any PC could ever hope to be. You make up super epic non player characters and make them have traveled the planes, fought epic battles in the pits of hell, mastered magic that no one could ever dream of, because hey, that sounds pretty sweet. Or make their NPC the start of every quest, the one with all the knowledge, the purpose of every journey, always knowing things at a lower experience level than no one else can, because it's the GM's NPC.

Then every PC in the world has to come crying to all the Elminsters of the world because they need help saving the world and he's too busy reading a book and just divulges cryptic sentences now and again, so all these NPCs that are WAY more powerful than the PCs have to have their butts saved all the time, or thousands of years of campaign slaving can be easily ruined by a previously little known villain's cough, because he's just that powerful. It's just how it works at times.

Regarding the epic villains part, well, I would generally ask where the heck those came from too, which is why I don't beg for more epic quests all the time. Epic quests require epic villains, and all need to be checked by Ed for continuity because of their larger area spread; people make lower level quests that conflict with existing information all the time, but you can just shrug off a one shot quest or try to explain it away, which doesn't work in the upper scale world affecting things (low OR high level). I love them and appreciate the work done on them, so I'd just as soon wait til one is planned than demand a one shot epic quest or something...since the last thing I want is a whole supply of disposable level 40 villains.

I guess the whole point of this post is to say "It's actually not often that way at all - but when it is, that's just the way it is."

[Masterjack]

Then every PC in the world has to come crying to all the Elminsters of the world because they need help saving the world and he's too busy reading a book and just divulges cryptic sentences now and again, so all these NPCs that are WAY more powerful than the PCs have to have their butts saved all the time, or thousands of years of campaign slaving can be easily ruined by a previously little known villain's cough, because he's just that powerful. It's just how it works at times.

"

I'm in a quest right now were that is the opposite. We need specific PCs to complete the quest. We gained more information from PCs then NPCs. It was an NPC that stared the quest but it was PC information that has made it continue. That is only one quest though.

 I would have to agree that most quests are like what Acacea has mentioned. I think it mostly has to do with PCs only looking out for themselves. Sure we have charitable oragnisations that help once the damage has been done. We just do not have PC organisations that raise armys to fight evil when it raises it's ugly head.

I guess now would be a good time to start.


PS. I assume that could also apply to the evil PC side. I just do not know anything about that side of Layo.

[Polak76]

Or conversely, how does the PC necromancer take over the world with his single undead summons, whereas his NPC counterpart has an army of undead? *shrugs*

That is one of the oldest paradoxes since the earliest days of the "D&D Boxed Edition", best not contemplated by us mere players.

Or, you can put it down to too much DM creativity.

I brought this to the team ages ago with my old Palemaster.  I was hoping to have multiple summons.

A little while ago I made a character on another Aussie server which intergrated the latest conversions of PrC's.  There where heaps of classes to choose from.  I made a True Necromancer (Wiz5/Clr5/TN20).  God that was a fune concept.  The only restrictions on the amount of summons one could have was limited by the HD available to summon based on your PrC ability.  At one point I summoned around 10 Skeletal Cheiftans, a Vampire Lord and Ghoul King.  Throw some group buffs and a spell like ability from the PrC which enhances damage and you had a force.  Additionally they had around six undead summoning feats which further bolstered your undead summons.  God I had fun with this build.