Author Topic: A new faith? (Read 817 times)

Tazmanius · « **on:** August 21, 2006, 05:20:47 am »

While pondering the submission and development of a character..I was wondering if it would be possible to have one,preferably a priest who does not follow the existing deities..but believes in a single divine entity...some sort of metaphysical creator...along the same lines as christianity etc.
Wondered what problems could be encountered with this in relation to the gameworld...well not so much gameworld..more could this be considered offensive to the playerbase/gm's.

Also,if there was a potential for approval,i.e a new religion that sees all the existing ones as pagan..what would be needed to submit such to the GM's..?
My way of thinking runs along the lines that..as the old god's fail..the sky has darkened and such...perhaps new religions could come to fruition as the common people search for guidance and salvation...and new hope..as often happens in times of crisis.

This is just in basic form at present to throw open a bit of debat on the matter..and guage opinion.

Dorganath · « **Reply #1 on:** August 21, 2006, 05:40:05 am »

Something like this, especially if you're talking about a cleric character, would absolutely have to be approved by Leanthar and EdTheKet.
Clerics derive their powers directly from a deity. For this hypothetical character to be a cleric and have these powers, this deity would have to exist in the pantheon.
Oh, and....the old gods have not failed, nor begun to really. Even though their constellations cannot be seen through the thick clouds that cover Layonara, they are still very much present in the Heavens.

elmo13 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 21, 2006, 05:42:36 am »

I like the idea of a new faith appearing though I not sure that it would be a good idea to base it on a major world religion. I think that it could be offensive to people and that if this new religion, is as you say based on christianity, then other players may want to bring in the other major religions, which to me would kinda undermine the whole point of playing layonara. Also if this deity was brought in then it may bring with it prejudice.

Nibor21 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 21, 2006, 06:05:59 am »

it is always important to separate fantasy from reality. RL religions and the tensions that surround them are probably one the greatest (excuses at any rate) named reason for conflict on the planet. Bringing those into game may cause strife in a harmonious community

Fantasy religions like the ones here on Layo are more akin to simple moral concepts and ideals - fertility, luck, law, thievery etc. Each deity in a fantasy setting holds it own portfolio and the gods wage war amongst themselves and through their followers. In Layo it is easy to see why Toran dislikes Branderback - it is a clash of ideals.

Bringing a monotheistic deity into Layo means the following:
1.) If he is already here and is the one true god, then all the other deities are actually either his servants or pretenders to the throne

2.) If he is a new arrival then he is attempting to usurp all of the existing deities. Your PC may be witness to a unique Layo event. All of the layo deities gathering together, both good and evil, lawfull and chaotic, and then he could watch them go to war with your god who they would attempt to erase from the cosmos. It could be assumed that Coranth or a similar god may stop to pick his teeth with the aforementioned one-gods follower as the smoke settles.

I see no reason though why you couldn't ask Leanthar to let you play a character who believes in only one god. After all the world needs madmen etc. I cant see you getting any clerical spells though.

I actually play a barbarian woman who believes her tribes totem animal the Great Elk is her spirit guide and views him as a minor god. I do not with annoyance that he hasn't actually stopped her gaining any soul stones though......

Tazmanius · « **Reply #4 on:** August 21, 2006, 06:45:17 am »

Not trying to offend anyone with this concept..just think it would be interesting to rp...a mad prophet etc..

With regard to offending say Christianity..well..technically..all the seperate religions as defined in Layo could be said to cause offence..given that Christianity has a commnadment denying false gods.
With regard to spells..why could a character not gain divine powers from his new god..or from the metaphysical multiverse..could he not be tapping in to latent or hidden resources..or energies generated by the events of the war with Blood etc.Maybe the new entity is the third dragon god?
Like i said..it's just a concept at present..and should there be a chance of any approval then yes..I would work closely with Leanthar and co..to flesh this out etc. so as to not make it overpowerful or offensive.
Just something to further rp and make Layo an even more interesting and diverse place..after all Christianity started with one man(albeit potentially semi-divine)..then grew froma handful..supplanted a mutlti-theistic religion that had been Rome...and now has one third of the world's population nominally following it.

cbnicholson · « **Reply #5 on:** August 21, 2006, 07:28:44 am »

Dorganath " Oh, and....the old gods have not failed, nor begun to really. Even though their constellations cannot be seen through the thick clouds that cover Layonara, they are still very much present in the Heavens."

Tazmanius "Maybe the new entity is the third dragon god?"

hmm.. *ponders a bit*

Ar7 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 21, 2006, 07:50:49 am »

There is simply no way, as far as I see it, that a new religion can appear. At this moment there are various gods that offer extreme powers to their followers and every peasant can see these powers with his own eyes. Clerics of Aeridin acting as healers, Clerics of Vorax acting as great generals able to turn the tide of the battle, Paladins of Toran being the symbol of every virtue for the helpless peasant and the followers of Corath being the curse to the land they walk upon. In this situation it is impossible that a person would begin to believe in an abstract "God" since he won't be able to show anything for it - no powers, magic or abilities.

So I am not saying a new got can appear, I just don't think an abstract creator of universe may come out of nowhere.

Dorganath · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2006, 07:53:19 am »

Bear in mind, what I'm about to say reflects the way things are right now....
If you submit a cleric character without a deity, it will not be approved. If you get it approved with a deity and then do not specify that deity on character creation, we will correct that for you when noticed. As things currently stand, you cannot be a cleric and pull from the "multiverse" or whatever. It just doesn't work that way. Your powers come directly from your deity; there are no exceptions. Pulling energies from the "multiverse" might be considered more arcane and/or druidic.
As I said before, for the concept to even begin to have approval, the entity in question must exist in the Layonara pantheon/cosmology, and that of course would go through EdTheKet and Leanthar. Whether it is known publicly or not is another story. RPing another deity or universal entity might be permissible, but playing that character as a cleric will not.
And regarding Christianity...I think the point was to not introduce a Christian-like religion into Layonara, for it might bleed too much from fantasy into reality, prompt other players to create an analog of their own favored religion, and bring all the RL dogmatic conflicts and frictions of such into a game world...where it has no place.

lunchboxkilla · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2006, 09:11:50 am »

"Then people pray, a god is born"

I'm ripping that one line from black and white...

I'm adding my two cents, and I strongly agree that your char can't be a cleric.. What may be a grand idea of a time is making a odd little character that is beyond par with a few insane characters in this world, gain a few dozen followers and try to make a new religon through huge ammonuts of RP.

I was planning on making this one totaly insane character that is a bard and worships a god Leanthar

I wont go into how he'll pull off followers but it may work( OR MAYNOT) work.

Things you may try is going to less civilsed tribes and using things like a lighting storm to tell the barbarians that this is your gods wrath if they do not follow him. Play with ideas, Write up some off the wall back story about your god that is so insane that it becomes sane. Gather followers (good) or start an amy and pillage your way till a new a god accends (evil). There is many ways to make a god and many ways to gather followers.

Just be smart about it

Faldred · « **Reply #9 on:** August 21, 2006, 09:18:44 am »

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lunchboxkilla - 8/21/2006 12:11 PM

Things you may try is going to less civilsed tribes and using things like a lighting storm to tell the barbarians that this is your gods wrath if they do not follow him. Play with ideas, Write up some off the wall back story about your god that is so insane that it becomes sane. Gather followers (good) or start an amy and pillage your way till a new a god accends (evil). There is many ways to make a god and many ways to gather followers.

Just be smart about it

Heck, if your character is a Sorcerer, then it is even possible to RP the character believing it himself. The character would just be using arcane spells rather than divine.

Black Raven · « **Reply #10 on:** August 21, 2006, 09:51:11 am »

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Faldred - 8/21/2006 7:18 PM
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lunchboxkilla - 8/21/2006 12:11 PM Things you may try is going to less civilsed tribes and using things like a lighting storm to tell the barbarians that this is your gods wrath if they do not follow him. Play with ideas, Write up some off the wall back story about your god that is so insane that it becomes sane. Gather followers (good) or start an amy and pillage your way till a new a god accends (evil). There is many ways to make a god and many ways to gather followers. Just be smart about it
Heck, if your character is a Sorcerer, then it is even possible to RP the character believing it himself. The character would just be using arcane spells rather than divine.

I actually kinda think that using a sorcerer or even a wizard to conjur lightning storms, or use other spells to make people into thinking it's a whole new god is a hell of an idea! The only problem is, that with alot of powerful wizards, clerics, druids etc etc. Such spells become common to the players's characters, and therefor will be hard to show off as acts of god unless you go directly into the new characters (if in their past they havent wittnessed such spells of course) or use it via help of GM's into dazzling peasents and farmers.

Nice idea all in all.

Faldred · « **Reply #11 on:** August 21, 2006, 10:14:20 am »

The reason I say "sorcerer", rather than "wizard", is that the power is innate, rather than learned. As such, it is possible for a charatcer to have built an entire belief system around these innate powers, believing himself or herself to be the avatar of his or her own imagined deity.

Things like arcane spell failure would just be taken as an indication that the god despises the use of armor, or some such.

It's an entirely different story if the character knows no such deity exists, but is still trying to recruit followers...

Black Raven · « **Reply #12 on:** August 21, 2006, 10:27:45 am »

I know what you ment but sorc's only. To use them like clerics with only arcane magic only without knowings its birth magic, and believing it was given by a god.

And as I've said, perhaps a false church or just a rather nasty person that knows the truth that theres no real god could be also concidered as a slightly differnt idea. Same result, different motives.

Ar7 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 21, 2006, 10:46:50 am »

I somehow immediatly visualized Ozy doing people a "favor" by allowing them knowledge about a secret and forgotten god. *grins* All they need to do to gain the God's favour is listen to Ozy

Ozy_Llewellyn · « **Reply #14 on:** August 21, 2006, 11:24:25 am »

I haven't laughed so hard in a long time Ar. Chances are he does something similar but theirs nothing secret or forgotten about Aragen, just some insults and expletives along the way. *Giggles* Thou what has me still laughing is any god granting favor instead of disfavor with someone listening to Ozy. He’s a heretic to his fingertips. *stumbles off giggling*

I suspect while possible for someone to raise a simple belief system amongst primitive tribes without gaining dangerous attention. Most of Layonara would scoff at any new deity, and it would instantly attract unwanted attention from clergies ever eager to make certain competition true or false isn’t spread. Making a bid for divine fallowing, could be dangerous and foolish indeed in a world where miracles are somewhat commonplace.

Stephen_Zuckerman · « **Reply #15 on:** August 21, 2006, 05:07:40 pm »

Faldred, I was thinking exactly the same thing: Sorcerers are the answer to the dilemma.

Though really, having a Neutral-aligned caster... The summons wouldn't fit so well with the idea of some overdeity. Go with Good.

Yosemite Sam · « **Reply #16 on:** August 22, 2006, 09:48:49 am »

In addition, the sorcerer's high charisma would be a boon when trying to recruit/convert others.

EdTheKet · « **Reply #17 on:** August 22, 2006, 09:55:46 am »

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Clerics derive their powers directly from a deity. For this hypothetical character to be a cleric and have these powers, this deity would have to exist in the pantheon.

Dorg is correct. And we will not be adding deities to the pantheon just like that. We almost had a new one (or two) during the last campaign and that took a large part of that campaign, so no quick ascensions to godhood for new arrivals, sorry.

As for a sorceror claiming he's following a new god. He'd be found out quite fast, as it'd be arcane magic and every decent mage could see the difference between somebody casting arcane spells or somebody casting divine ones.

Faldred · « **Reply #18 on:** August 22, 2006, 10:12:38 am »

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EdTheKet - 8/22/2006 12:55 PM

As for a sorceror claiming he's following a new god. He'd be found out quite fast, as it'd be arcane magic and every decent mage could see the difference between somebody casting arcane spells or somebody casting divine ones.

Oh, I never said it would be effective, just that it would be a possible way to RP the scenario. To a certain degree, I can imagine it would be quite fun to RP a disturbed individual who thought he was the forerunner of a new religion only to have people tell him how deluded he is. Of course, for a while, this would only reinforce a "martyr" complex, having to deal with the scorn of followers of the "lesser" or "false" gods, etc.

He may even evangelize, telling other CHA-based casters that their so-called "arcane" power is really the divine gift of this "new" god, they just didn't know it before. Wizards, who use study, rather than innate ability, to access the power, may be thought of as heretics, even.

Eventually, the character either makes converts, becomes isolated/ostracized (including going just plain nuts), or realizes the error of his ways...

EdTheKet · « **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2006, 10:18:42 am »

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He may even evangelize, telling other CHA-based casters that their so-called "arcane" power is really the divine gift of this "new" god, they just didn't know it before

Lucinda?