a possible answer for the drow problem

[IceDragonDuvessa]

both

[Drizzlin]

Ne'er - 9/8/2006  1:52 PM

Niles09 - 9/8/2006  2:32 PM

Drizzlin - 9/8/2006  8:23 AM

Harlas Ravelkione - 9/8/2006  5:19 AM

The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is when I attend quests, where there are drow in the party Kobal does not know. Those Kobal knows he can keep an eye on and be calmed by the fact that he knows what they can do - he knows he can take them down should the need arise. But new drow are a problem, and I have left a few quests due to that over the years, which I do not like to do. I have challenged drow to leave and asked other members of the group to back me up before they consider fighting alongside someone who may trip you or stab you in the back. 9 out of 10 times I have ended up leaving the group and the quest myself - anything else would be bad RP of Kobal's character.

This is a big problem on both sides and the main reason I stopped attending quests. I want to be there OOC, but I feel my drow never would want to be. I admit I have not tried "hard" to look at the exact quests, but I wish there were more quests out there that focused on shady tasks that would appeal to more monster races. If there are, and I haven't noticed them, please feel free to point me towards their direction!

This is an RP server, however RP should never directly limit a player from having a good time. Being forced to leave a quest because of your char is not right. At least not if it happens often.

If your character is a drow, tiefling, goblin, orc, etc. then it is something you should take into consideration before you submitted the character.If you want a character that everyone will accept and be friendly with, don't play one of the 'evil' races. If you play one, you've got whatever other players throw out you. If that means you've essentially been "forced" off a quest, well, that's what you get for being a drow. If you have a problem with not being able to make quests, then submit another character or just find out a way to prove yourself. It won't be (or at least shouldn't be) easy though.

Just remember, if you play a drow, you essentially signed up for having trouble like this.

I agree 100%, but at the same time that doesn't mean the shady PCs can't hope for a Shady run quest here and there.


EDIT: My pc has been kicked off of DM quests in the past, and he completely deserved it. I don't complain about that at all.

[Acacea]

Elegant clothes mean nothing when they are draped about the unhooded body of murder, deceit, and backstabbing evil. The shady man might be bad news, he looks bad news, you maybe "don't like his kind and he better not stir up any trouble" but the drow is drow is drow is drow is drow. The shady man is a fearful unknown, the drow is a drow is a drow is a drow, he is a KNOWN threat, a KNOWN evil, a KNOWN grab-the-children-and-run situation.  You cannot make the comparisons to real life, this is not my opinion of who I would personally be more afraid of in a situation near my home, because there ISN'T one. Your example is not correct unless you say, "There is a man in a ski mask with a gun at his hip lurking shady in the shadows, and the world's number one threat whose face has been plastered all over the television and descriptions posted and broadcasted as a murderer, rapist, torturer, responsible for massacres and completely -utterly- recognizable in front of you--which are you afraid of?"  The simple answer is that shady man is NOT my biggest concern right at that moment, and I don't care how pretty Known Threat looks in his dress.     I can understand people feeling that being "forced" off a quest feels extreme to them, who just want to hang out and have a good time.  I've walked out of quests for roleplay reasons before and it's better than making the whole thing "just for the xp" or something for me. At least in walking out or arguing until being thrown out feels more true to character and those around me, rather than forcing everyone out of character just because I couldn't make any accomodations.  It's very simple though. If you just want to get along with everyone while you're on, don't play a hated race. Don't play a reviled race. Don't play a race that might just be killed by an NPC instead of dealt with.   Name calling and bluffing is usually pointless and taking it further more than once is time consuming and rarely with any lasting results or impressions. If you want to go on a quest, why do it looking like a drow? Again, I strongly suggest putting on a helmet.  I know this sounds laughably simple, and yet that is the most pathetic, flimsy version of a disguise you can get... but so few bother. If you show up in a tanktop and shades to a quest full of dwarves, I don't think it's at all out of line to not be that welcome. Can we not see how silly it is that despite how inadequate something like a helmet is as a disguise, it's still asked for as some token attempt at acknowledgement?  Look at how much more threatening Shady Man looks in comparison when Known Threat actually bothers to wear a wig...

[EdTheKet]

They've done it though. There have been Drow attacks on Hlint and Spellgaurd in the past (Im assuming these were actual attacks and not just a written history seeing as I myself was not there for them).

Oh yes, these were actuall attacks and actual occupations. We've also had the goody-goody-NPC dark elfenter Hlint and ask for a tour. He was taken across Mistone (by players), showed around cities and their defenses and then we launched attacks. We've done all that and more, like burning down all craft houses so people couldn't craft for several weeks.
However, as was stated before here already, we shouldn't have to run a dark-elves-are-evil-event every month or so to prove that they are.
That's what the handbook is for, that's what the history is for (nice quote above ).

Playing a dark elf is hard, and RPing distrust/hatred of them is hard within the rules of the server. Can it be done? Most certainly. Is it easy for the person plainyg on? No it's not. Is it easy for those who meet a dark elf PC in game? No it's not either, because maybe in the back of your mind, you're tihnking "this person is also only here to have fun so maybe I shouldn't be too nasty" , or maybe you are not certain how far you can go.

And indeed this tension may cause people to leave quests, be it the one who plays the dark elf, or one woh doesn't want to travel with one. Agreed, you're going to miss out on a quest, but on the other hand you are playing your character which people will respect and applaud you for.

[LynnJuniper]

EdTheKet - 9/9/2006  5:15 AM
And indeed this tension may cause people to leave quests, be it the one who plays the dark elf, or one woh doesn't want to travel with one. Agreed, you're going to miss out on a quest, but on the other hand you are playing your character which people will respect and applaud you for.

Perhaps with the advent of the New World Leader wand, a Drow that leaves a quest that he or she could have gotten EXP/had tons of fun on Due to the fact that In character the Drow would not have been welcome/would not have wanted to be welcome, some small reward could be granted for going along with the roleplay in spite of really wanting to go on the quest as a player

[Weeblie]

LynnJuniper - 9/9/2006  5:02 PM

EdTheKet - 9/9/2006  5:15 AM
And indeed this tension may cause people to leave quests, be it the one who plays the dark elf, or one woh doesn't want to travel with one. Agreed, you're going to miss out on a quest, but on the other hand you are playing your character which people will respect and applaud you for.

Perhaps with the advent of the New World Leader wand, a Drow that leaves a quest that he or she could have gotten EXP/had tons of fun on Due to the fact that In character the Drow would not have been welcome/would not have wanted to be welcome, some small reward could be granted for going along with the roleplay in spite of really wanting to go on the quest as a player

I assume a DM is present too to do that.

[LynnJuniper]

Well yeah it would be nice..I mean not that EXP should be at all required for Rping well. With those World Leader wands, if a WL tried to give me EXP for general good RP I'd tell them to kindly take it back, its not why I Rp.

Getting back on topic.

HOWEVER: Not getting to go on a quest due to the fact that your character would not be welcome despite your OOC wishes to go, and upholding the nature of your character, I think, is a special condition

[Eorendil]

EdTheKet.. Hit. nail. head. I've seen people play their anti-drow sentiment or fear very well with occasional cutting comments or ignoring the any drow in question.  Now, some individuals should be a bit more engaging in their sentiment but when does attempting to escort that drow off Mistone or out of town become possible griefing or harassment?  Even if a person were doing it equally to all drow...
  EXP for good RP is always a good reward, even if its a few hundred or even one or two points just to let the player know that they are doing a great job.  Its called positive reinforcement.  It wouldn't have to be an amount similar to finishing a quest to be a reward.

[LynnJuniper]

Agreed, Hence, Small reward.

[Drizzlin]

EdTheKet - 9/9/2006  2:15 AM

They've done it though. There have been Drow attacks on Hlint and Spellgaurd in the past (Im assuming these were actual attacks and not just a written history seeing as I myself was not there for them).

Oh yes, these were actuall attacks and actual occupations. We've also had the goody-goody-NPC dark elfenter Hlint and ask for a tour. He was taken across Mistone (by players), showed around cities and their defenses and then we launched attacks. We've done all that and more, like burning down all craft houses so people couldn't craft for several weeks.
However, as was stated before here already, we shouldn't have to run a dark-elves-are-evil-event every month or so to prove that they are.
That's what the handbook is for, that's what the history is for (nice quote above ).

Playing a dark elf is hard, and RPing distrust/hatred of them is hard within the rules of the server. Can it be done? Most certainly. Is it easy for the person plainyg on? No it's not. Is it easy for those who meet a dark elf PC in game? No it's not either, because maybe in the back of your mind, you're tihnking "this person is also only here to have fun so maybe I shouldn't be too nasty" , or maybe you are not certain how far you can go.

And indeed this tension may cause people to leave quests, be it the one who plays the dark elf, or one woh doesn't want to travel with one. Agreed, you're going to miss out on a quest, but on the other hand you are playing your character which people will respect and applaud you for.

EdTheKet for president!!!

Couldn't say it better. It is a blast being different (even if different is suppose to be the norm). I spend a lot of lonely hours out in the wild, but have a blast in public.

[AeonBlues]

Boy, you ask and you receive.

My character Cymeran Vrin's lore page now says:

Killed By: Ketibojorn Svadi
Killed On: 2006-09-10
03:45:03

Hey says it was a miss click, and I feel I have to beleive him.  Still he did not help Cym back to his grave, after cym cast many buffs and heals on Ket.

For those of you that were rooting....

Cym did not get a death token

AeonBlues

P.S. Ket's great quote after the battle was, "He musta slipd."

[Chongo]

You can just ask bud instead of posting on the forums.

Surrounded by creatures, IKD misclick, two hits in that flurry, both sneak crits, I apologized then and I will again in the very public forums...sorry.

It has nothing to do with the fact that you're drow or any assumption that I don't like you or anything wild like that.  There are other unfortunate incidents that have happened like this.  I know I've been KD'd three times by friends with my character.  I have had one character here killed twice by KD's crits... one rather magnificent swing by a greataxe once.  I've killed Akki once with Ketil, and while an elf, she's certainly not drow.  And you're skin is whiter then mine... hard to tell you're a drow to begin with.  I imploded Celgar by accident once, and I hit Triba with a destruction once by accident as well.  It's not that I'm a god-awful player (I hope)... it's just that when you're in large groups, and you take chances with those sorts of things... sometimes you misclick.  So the lesson I've taken from those incidents is to avoid any action that can result in instant death in large groups or confusing combat.  The exception to this is in cases like this, where my character is responsible for getting people out, and really is the only melee capable of insuring that in the group.  So you use what you have, in my case, IKD.


And my response was... 'oh mah, tat ain' good'  *other party members look at your grave as you immediately respawned and ask what just happened*  'Ah slipped an' chopped off te skinny's 'ead...'.  

So do me justice on that one at least.  

Furthermore, you're very hasty to assume things.  Bear in mind you had to run back to Dalanthar to get back to the party.  We were planning on helping you, all of us including me and someone that was running across the world in an unfortunate OOC manner to come help with that task.  Then I rp'ed that I had to take a nap.  This means I'm going afk instead of saying //afk for 15 folks, gotta help the wife with something.  I did this, I came back, you had retrieved your grave and had already logged.  There's not much more to this scenario.

It's very easy to allow forum tension to translate in-game to some sort of conspiracy.  I've fallen prey to that self conscious behavior myself in the past.  You just start assuming things based on the overwhelming resistance to your forum posts and that folks are out to get you.

But it's not the case, and while it's not fun to get killed by a party member, just learn to laugh at the misfortune instead of potentially getting upset about it and making any further stirs on the forums.

[AeonBlues]

Oh I know it was an accident, and was not trying to discredit you there Ket.  My true intension of that post was to make people laugh at my character's expense.  I spare no oportunity to get a chuckle.

Sory, I just remembered the slipped part, and was a bit confused at the time.

Just to let you know though, Cym will probably have issues with Ket that may or not be resolved depending on future RP.  I know it was an accident, but Cym sure doesn't see it that way.

Aeon

[Tanman]

EdTheKet - 9/9/2006  9:15 PM

They've done it though. There have been Drow attacks on Hlint and Spellgaurd in the past (Im assuming these were actual attacks and not just a written history seeing as I myself was not there for them).

Oh yes, these were actuall attacks and actual occupations. We've also had the goody-goody-NPC dark elfenter Hlint and ask for a tour. He was taken across Mistone (by players), showed around cities and their defenses and then we launched attacks. We've done all that and more, like burning down all craft houses so people couldn't craft for several weeks.
However, as was stated before here already, we shouldn't have to run a dark-elves-are-evil-event every month or so to prove that they are.
That's what the handbook is for, that's what the history is for (nice quote above ).

I have seen this happen as well, where there was a raid and still character (even one of Paladin and cleric classes) were still showing kindness to a Drow. When I saw a Drow and RP suspicion and mistrust there a few that defended her, including classes like Clerics and Paladins. It broke out into an IC argument and what it boiled down to was a statement from the Paladin that went like saying that he was from the Toranite church and had their support so he had the justification what he did.

I think what players need to see is a properly played out RP scenario with a WL or a high leveled player (from a Church perferably) that is part of the team where there is an argument/fight(whatever it is called) and a Drow. They need a role model. Otherwise people have "no standards" to benchmark. Whenever there is a Drow attack they have justifications saying that not all Drow are like that so you cannot judge people on what other Drow have done. What is misunderstood in my opinion, and correct me if i am wrong is that people don;t understand that warlike mindset is in the Drow's blood.

Not too long ago, what I suggested did happen on a certain level. A high level and well versed character started to explain to a group of us the true meaning of what a Drow is. What they really represent and dispelled a lot of myths. Thats a good start, but in my mind, not enough.

And the RP to Drow  from high level characters or from the team needs to be done constantly till it permeates to the community. Once players catch on, then it will ripple throughout the community even to the new people.

I am not saying that there should not be "good Drow". If they ever do become Good Drow, they should have earnt it, with at least a CDQ.

Oh, I do wonder how many new players do actually read the handbook fully?

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Eh. I have to say that I've been disappointed in the RP of people in Hlint regarding this issue lately. I started a new character a while back, named Barret Glib, and what's the first thing he did when he saw Cymeran? He shot him. (Dicebag work with approval from AeonBlues, in case there's doubt.)

Now, I can understand Cym's RP. He's a well-known cleric of Az'atta, so why should anyone be bothered by him? Anyhow, Cym got ticked off, and started coming after Barret. This was good. What wasn't good was the number of onlookers, some of whom didn't even know Cymeran, who chastised Barret for attacking "an evil, murderous, spellflinging Drow!"

In another instance, Barret attacked Tash'r, a tiefling. Understandably, she got torqued and started throwing spells at him. (Again, after organizing it with the player.) This is all well and good, however... Again, the problem is the people around. A clearly terrified little halfling is attacking what he's screaming is a murderous planetouched, and everyone flocks to support not the halfling, but the creature with fiendish blood in its veins.

The biggest problem I'm seeing isn't the RP of the evil races so much. It's the reactions of everyone around them.

Everyone will freak out if someone summons a skeleton to fight ogres, but noone cares when a Drow starts threatening brownies.

[AeonBlues]

Tanman - 9/24/2006  3:17 PM


It broke out into an IC argument and what it boiled down to was a statement from the Paladin that went like saying that he was from the Toranite church and had their support so he had the justification what he did.

My experience is, that about 80% of the PCs my dark elf meets, begins with suspicion and doubt.  The Torite paladin here knows that the drow female in question is a follower of Az'atta.  So, they must have a past RP experience (s) that most likely started with distrust. The god Toran and the dark elf goddess Az'atta are friends in the pantheon.  Opposites attract as they say.  Perhaps this is about lust, but most likely because they share common enemies in the pantheon.  More importantly then that, there are numerous examples of Az'atta followers working with Toranites, common enemies again, with in our game world.  So much so, that the Az'atta clergy is starting to feel a bit threatened that they will lose converts to Toran.

Stephen_Zuckerman - 9/24/2006  4:00 PM


The biggest problem I'm seeing isn't the RP of the evil races so much. It's the reactions of everyone around them.

Everyone will freak out if someone summons a skeleton to fight ogres, but noone cares when a Drow starts threatening brownies.

The lawfull characters should allways try to stop the fighting and put them both in front of a judge.  This is why we should blame Garnet for bad RP.  By all rules and standards, both our characters should have been arested, and given a fair trail.

As far as for the chaotic characters:  What ever man, it's their personal opinion at the time.

I am sure that if Cymeran started attacking anyone for an unprovoked reason, all good characters would be against him. Many would be shocked with disbelief

AeonBlues

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I think you misunderstand the idea of a Chaotic alignment. This simply means that they are less ordered in nature... Not that thier beliefs and childhood programming are subject to change at any given moment. They typically feel less comfortable with strict and exacting rules, but... Come on. A drow is a drow is a drow.

You see some guy in a bottlebrush mustache sporting a huge swastika and shouting in a german accent about the purification of the races, you're going to be inclined to be hostile to this fellow (let's assume this isn't a satire). Likewise, someone on Layo'll see an elf (or even a slender human) with black skin, and what'll come to mind are images of Drow slaughtering anything and everything in sight, just as a person in our world would see a concentration camp when they look at our aforementioned nazi.

Garent is an NPC. Without a DM possessing him, he is mindless and worthless in terms of protecting the town from non-MOB hostiles. You can't lay blame on him; if you did that, Drow would be free to walk around unmoles- Oh, wait! They are!

Many Lawful characters would see a Monster when they saw a Drow, and would be obliged to kill it. Those who knew Cym (or at least knew OF Cym) would try to stop those others, but... Eh. Again, just because a Drow isn't glowing red doesn't mean it's not here to kll everyone and everything.

The fact remains that people properly fear a Necromancer, even if they know him (or her), while any Drow or Tiefling that walks into Hlint must automatically be a reformed soul looking to help everyone.

[AeonBlues]

Well, in most civalized towns and cities, if you start shooting anyone who is minding their own busniss while sitting on a bench, then you have broken a law.  If you have a problem with somone, you should report it to the authorities.  To do otherwise is criminal.

Actualy, if our character ended up in a jail cell for a month or two, that would make for some good RP.

AeonBlues

[Etinfall]

If Cole walked up to any halfling, elf, half elf, human, dwarf arguing with a drow then he would automatically be inclined to side against a drow. But to be honest I am worn out of the explaining myself as to why I do not like drow. Everytime in Hlint I see a drow chatting with everyone. I get argumentitive, I then need to explain why, I usually say go ask the bar keep or waitress in the wild surge. There was group that were killed in there by two drow. They snuck in with the shadows and bam, many dead. (Stormspirit and Pankoki, a year ago) This would be a  harsh memory for the people of Hlint, especially the workers in the Wild Surge Inn. Cole saw Garent kill a large force of drow that stormed the city about that same time. Cole fell in that battle, but was brought back by a kindly cleric who had his work cut out for him that night. But, worn out is Cole of that line of RP. Soooo...now what? And I agree, the people playing them are not NOT rp'ing thier chars. The have back stories and a lifetime of events that led them to Hlint, or to Azatta. But we either need to change the back story of drow in Layo to make them a non evil race or rp like you heard horror stories as a kid about them

Drow ARE a playable race on Layonara. I have said before that I would never want to stop someone from having fun rp'ing thier chars and enjoying Layonara.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Yes it would. But the fact remains that Drow are creatures out of nightmares. They are not citizens, and you cannot murder them. If you could, then every goblin that got shot down just inside Hlint's gates, every Orc who came through the north gates, and every merc who chased someone in the eastern gates would have been murdered, as well.

The only reason YOUR character is accepted is because he's a powerful cleric of Az'atta. But most people just don't know that, and can't be expected to. Someone who went up against a Drow in Hlint would be considered to be trying to protect the people, because frankly, that's what they're doing. If we were to just leave every Drow who came into Hlint alone, we'd all be killed in our sleep!

The issue isn't specifically about YOUR character, Aeon. IT's about all the characters.