a possible answer for the drow problem

[Talan Va'lash]

Allorian - 9/26/2006  4:10 PM

I do not think a drow walking uncovered is metagaming. A young good drow new to the surface world would most likely be ignorant to the rules of the land.

The drow make frequent raids on the surface and are well aware of how they are percieved there and they percieve surfacers especially surface elves with equal enimity

[Polak76]

Talan
What I meant by that is a non-drow PC should view a Drow as being evil until proven good.
While if one plays a Drow Character they should start as CN and work their way towards good or evil.

[Yllyrryon]

I"m missing why they should be CN.  In offering the premise that requirements/hurdles should be in place for those players wishing to play drow, contributors to this thread have pointed to the rules for CN characters as an example.  If there are any further alignment restrictions it should be that a drow PC must begin non-good (LN, N, CN - and the latter only if they meet the CN requirement too).  And if the player wants them to become good, they must establish it through excellent roleplay and a well written development thread, all culminating in a cdq for the alignment shift to good.

[Yllyrryon]

I didn't contribute to this thread previously because I reject the notion that we have a "drow problem".

As Miltonyorkcastle has said in other threads where we've discussed and debated issues, sometimes passionately as has been done here - "It's all about growth".  There are a lot of good ideas here about how we can keep the drow a playable sub-race for skilled roleplayers who are willing to accept the challenge of roleplaying a member of the world's most hated race.  This thread could go on and on, ad nauseam, but I'm hoping that soon we can begin condensing this into something constructive.  

One possiblity to include - we can come up with a set of guidelines/considerations that all players submitting drow characters must certify that they have read and understand.  This would be along the lines of the statements I have seen players required to make in submitting clerics.

Well, it's late here and I'm weary, so I'll stop while I'm ahead lest this post devolve into incoherent babbling.  =P

But rest assured, there will be more to come from this Layo member.  

[AeonBlues]

“My response to this is simply that your character is not a hero...yet. “

*Big Grins*  He is working vary hard at it.  In his own mind he is a hero.  And who ever became a hero without acting like one in the first place?

“She is not a beacon for summoning all Drow. “

I totally agree.  

But imagine that a drow worshiper of Az'atta believed very strongly, I dare say with faith.  Faith that one by one a few drow here and there would trickle out, one by one, they start walking the path of Az'atta.  Over many generations, thousands of years, a few become hundreds, hundreds become thousands, and thousands become millions.


Again, this will never happen in my RL life time, or my character's virtual one.  So, yes I realize that Az'atta is not the beacon of light to all drow.  In my opinion, to be a religious fanatic, implies that you are not just capable of believing in the impossible, you will dedicate your life to making the impossible happen in somone elses life time.

So say this religious fanatic is respected.  Through good RP discussions, his view becomes not just his view, but the views of others.  Now we have something stronger then any army.  We have an idea.  Idea's shape our world, not generals.  Generals are but pawns to the powerful idea that motivates them.

Again I challenge the notion that villagers would not recognize the symbol of Az'atta.  If there is a symbol that will always take you in.  Will always help you when you are sick or deprived.  Will always be there to protect you.  Now, who is going to tell me that if all of a goddess's clerics and priests are bound by oath to aid and protect the needy when ever possible.  Who is going to tell me that kind of charity would be not noticed, not recognized, and definitely not appreciated.

I must say that non cleric worshippers of Az'atta are not bound by this oath.  If the concept aiding and protecting all who need it is has not been RP'd into the game world, well...  It is now.

Aeon

[Allorian]

The drow make frequent raids on the surface and are well aware of how they are percieved there and they percieve surfacers especially surface elves with equal enimity

A good drow should have, according to the LORE site, either killed or banished from the Underdark and many are quite young at the time (or so they are RP'ed in the game world). I am unsure how aware a young elf would be of the law of the land still.

[Weeblie]

Allorian - 9/27/2006  2:46 PM

The drow make frequent raids on the surface and are well aware of how they are percieved there and they percieve surfacers especially surface elves with equal enimity

A good drow should have, according to the LORE site, either killed or banished from the Underdark and many are quite young at the time (or so they are RP'ed in the game world). I am unsure how aware a young elf would be of the law of the land still.

If he has lived on the surface for some time, he would personally have experienced how people thinks about drow.

[D Blaze]

The Drow have spent Elven lifetimes underground, learning to be just as harsh and unforgiving as their environment. It is indoctrinated into their young through experiences and history tales. If a drow leaves to the surface and is not an infant, they will know this one simple general concept by then:

All inhabitants in the Underdark hates the Surface inhabitants, and vice versa.

The drow PC leaving might be an exception in that they are not like the rest of their kin, and there may also be exceptions on the surface in a similar position. But if they do not understand the concept above that would have been taught to them from birth, then they really are too stupid to have lived long enough to have escaped at all, and would have been killed long before they had the chance.

[Niles09]

It was mentioned somewhere earlier that some drow players hide behind the PvP rule well... my experience certainly says the opposite. Many a PC have said things to Zan that hit her so hard, that she (she might be good, but she is still a drow) would have ripped their head off in a blind anger, if it wasnt because of the PvP rule.. instead it always end up with her taking out her sword threating them showing that she is serious and then.... they go on arguing.

Secondly: somewhat this discussion is beginning like it started: "many drow players are awfully bad RP's"... Situations where drows and whatever other race comes into conflict are sometimes RP'ed bad, but it is as often the fault of the attacker or the neutral PC's around, as it is the fault of the drow. Yes, the whole drow thing is RP'ed bad more often than most other situations, but dont say it is the drow player that lacks the RP.

[Allorian]

The Drow have spent Elven lifetimes underground, learning to be just as harsh and unforgiving as their environment. It is indoctrinated into their young through experiences and history tales. If a drow leaves to the surface and is not an infant, they will know this one simple general concept by then:

All inhabitants in the Underdark hates the Surface inhabitants, and vice versa.

The drow PC leaving might be an exception in that they are not like the rest of their kin, and there may also be exceptions on the surface in a similar position. But if they do not understand the concept above that would have been taught to them from birth, then they really are too stupid to have lived long enough to have escaped at all, and would have been killed long before they had the chance.

I highly doubt that. I have already gone into heavy detail describing the previous situation and multiple others. And I am yet to see a 'old' drow played by a PC walking the surface.

Second. How can it be said that many Drow are bad RP'ers? How? Is not each character unique? How can a person who wants to play a drow a certain way be considered a bad RP'er compaired to someone who wants to play another race specifically?

I find that most characters who play Drow actively keep their CDT updated and in each thread (yes I do read alot of CDT's) I find that the person has developed a quite in depth character. I think it is foolhearty to call someone a bad RP'er because they are not playing an evil drow. Guidelines allow for players to create and change every aspect of their Avatar. A bad roleplayer is a person who runs around town begging for help with every quest in an attempt to level extremely fast. A bad roleplayer is the cleric who goes out and solos countless lizardmen (yes, I have seen this on quite a few occasions) for experience and profits beyond the means of which should be possible. A bad roleplayer is a person who extensively metagames (I am not speaking of loremasters and people of knowledge who RP their ability to have learned/learning about the realm). A bad roleplayer is that level three party member in the group who knows the land much better than a mid-level druid simply because this is their second character. And finally, a bad roleplayer is a person who groups with  party much higher than their current level for no other reason than simply to gain accelerated experience. The few people who do play drow on this server can hardly be called bad roleplayers. I am yet to see an instance where a drow player has stepped out of his character. Ninety percent of the people who even have drow characters on this game are extremely experienced in their character development and portrayal. Each is unique and each has his own strengths and weaknesses. I find more people out of character who are not drow; and with that stated there is no drow problem.

If there is such a worry for RP reasons, why not set a level restriction for future drow applicants similar to that of CN characters? However, I doubt this will solve much simply for the fact that I simply believe those who are not good RP'ers will give up their drow characters. As in the Underdark, let the strong survive.

[Eight-Bit]

The answer to this is pretty simple. I think it's simple. Because we do not have a massive and visible NPC populace, and we generally need to make one up in our own heads, we have to act in a reasonable manner. Not that we HAVE to, we can act like an idiot if we want, but there is rarely any sort of punishment for such behavoir. What we need is more player-responsibility, if we are to observe this hidden populace.

That means all over, not just for Drow, but for every single character. When you drag your summons into Hlint, you're just as bad as the 'poor drow RPers'. When you're running around polymorphed, lumbering around as a Half-Giant or Half-Ogre, playing a Goblin, Orc, Tiefling or whatever; everyone needs to think about it. It takes a level of responsibility that even some non-subrace characters are not observing. It is up to the player to impose their own restrictions on themselves, be it from Merchants, Garent, or just skulking about town. There are too many possibilities being an enigma could bring up. We're in the dark ages now, everyone is afraid, and I feel that we as subraces need to take a step back and think about how our characters would feel in a situation like this.

Key has taken to wearing a hood and cloak basically anywhere, but even then, the character herself is generally accepted. It's not that people are too nice, it's that the edge has been lost. We're only humans, and after having seen a near constant supply of strange and unusual subraces, is it our fault that we've become used to them?

There doesn't need to be another restriction on being a Drow, or any subrace in general. There should, however, be more focused attention to a character's application on just WHY this Elf needs to be a Drow (Or Tiefling, or Half-Giant, etc), and why it can't just be RPed as a normal character. I've read a lot of character applications, and I've been very much impressed thus far with the backgrounds which express the necessity for the subrace. Yet, I have to wonder, what can the next flock of Drow bring to the table? Fleeing from your Great House, the perils of the Underdark, or even just being born with a good heart; they're all just overdone. What level of depth can be added to a subrace that in most cases has no real reason to be on the surface?

[Drizzlin]

Talan Va'lash - 9/26/2006  8:49 PM

Drizzlin - 9/26/2006  8:53 PM
TN should be allowed too. One step removed from their dieties is more than ok. After all if it were CN only, there would be NO clerics of Ca'Duz.

TN is not allowed for a cleric of any CE god. TN is two steps away from CE, one step on the good axis and one step on the law axis.

http://nwn.layonara.com/Baraeon%20Ca'Duz

Which is exactly my point. Ca'Duz is NE (check the link above) which means that a cleric of Ca'Duz (like my PC) is TN. That is one step removed from the deity. That is why I said that I think one step removed from a drow diety is fine. Why everyone so many think drow have to be Chaotic is beyond me. I have never said that, I have only said NON good.

I am guessing from your reply to me that you thought Ca'Duz to be CE.

[Drizzlin]

Yllyrryon - 9/26/2006  9:42 PM

I"m missing why they should be CN.  In offering the premise that requirements/hurdles should be in place for those players wishing to play drow, contributors to this thread have pointed to the rules for CN characters as an example.  If there are any further alignment restrictions it should be that a drow PC must begin non-good (LN, N, CN - and the latter only if they meet the CN requirement too).  And if the player wants them to become good, they must establish it through excellent roleplay and a well written development thread, all culminating in a cdq for the alignment shift to good.

I agree completely and this was my point/suggestion back around post number 5 on this thread. After that this thread, IMO, quickly became a "i am right, you are wrong" issue and I stopped posting here. I still find myself drawn here when I see new posts from people, who are giving constructive ideas and solutions to the drow issues. The people who are saying CN only are the ones, for the most part, who do not want drow as PCs. The other people, again from what I have gathered, are the ones that are not adding anything constructive to this discussion outside of tryin to prove the "opinions" of others wrong. I have spoken in game tells with a lot of the people on this thread, and it is why they stopped posting here.  

Watch what will happen to my opinion above, it will be cut and pasted and taken "personally", or I will be told how I am mistaken and "missunderstanding", when all I did was give my opinion of what the thread has become. Like I said before, we need suggestions and opinions, not an argument thread about right and wrong, or bad RP. There have been some great ideas, like yours, but the majority of the thread has caused those ideas to be lost.

[Gulnyr]

AeonBlues - 9/27/2006  2:57 AM

Again I challenge the notion that villagers would not recognize the symbol of Az'atta.  If there is a symbol that will always take you in.  Will always help you when you are sick or deprived.  Will always be there to protect you.  Now, who is going to tell me that if all of a goddess's clerics and priests are bound by oath to aid and protect the needy when ever possible.  Who is going to tell me that kind of charity would be not noticed, not recognized, and definitely not appreciated.

There are other gods with the exact same commandment.  It is specifically stated on the LORE pages for Aeridin and Rofirein that their followers are to help others.  Aeridin's even says, "Temples to Aeridin can be found everywhere, from the largest city to the smallest village."  Followers of other gods are likely to help, too, like the followers of Toran and Prunilla and any other Good god with Good followers.  According to the Player's Handbook, a Good alignment implies altruism, and Good characters will make personal sacrifices to help others.  The very nature of a Good god would therefore imply helping others, even if that is not the god's main focus.

So, let's imagine that all the churches are somehow well known across all of Layonara, deep into every valley and up the highest peaks.  And let's also imagine that every commoner knows the ins and outs of every one of those religions, so they know who to go to for help.  If there are indeed temples of Aeridin everywhere, and they are sworn to help (LORE page: "Do not refuse to aid those who need it."), and there is a choice between getting help from the Aeridinite who lives next door or an Az'attan Drow who wandered in from who knows where, where do you think most people will actually seek help?

I'm not trying to destroy Az'atta.  I think maybe we're looking at her and her whole faith in two different ways.  I think there are large churches and small churches, some with more influence and some with less, some well-established in some regions and practically unknown in others while some are sprinkled liberally across the face of the world.  Az'atta's church, in my mind, is one that has a foothold but isn't necessarily widespread, or has small temples in several places but doesn't have very much influence.  I think it is entirely possible that a lot of commoners, who have a lot of work to do in a day just to stay alive, don't know jack about Az'atta.  Being a Drow and trying to help people without some sort of disguise is just going to be hard.  It's hard to be a Drow on the surface.

Az'atta says her followers should not be passive, but should be an active force for good.  Her priests also have to display her symbol so it is visible to others so they can seek aid.  Nothing about that says they need to become famous.  It is entirely possible to become a hero even if no one knows your name or your face.  It is possible that hiding the fact that a priest is Drow could make it easier to aid others, since people are afraid of Drow.  You don't help people by sending them into a panic.

[Gulnyr]

Drizzlin - 9/27/2006  5:06 PM

The people who are saying CN only are the ones, for the most part, who do not want drow as PCs.

I don't want Drow as PCs, but they are and that's that.  I don't think there should be any limits to the alignment of Drow.  Forcing non-Good makes it harder to submit a Drow Cleric of Az'atta.  True Neutral is a permitted alignment for her Clerics, but it seems an odd one for a god who commands, "Do not be passive, but be an active force for good in Layonara."  A TN character who is "an active force for good" is not playing his alignment correctly, in my opinion.

The other people, again from what I have gathered, are the ones that are not adding anything constructive to this discussion outside of tryin to prove the "opinions" of others wrong.

You can't disprove an opinion, you can only debate its merits.  Sometimes, it helps to debate a little to better understand the other opinions.  I think the "problem" can be solved by player action, and that we don't need more rules and regulations.  I don't believe that limiting alignments for Drow will make a difference in how they are treated nor in how they behave.  Some people will still befriend Drow a little too easily, and some Drow will continue to prance about like sunburned Elves, as if no one is scared stupid by Drow.

Maybe I don't understand what the whole problem is.  I have a vague memory that this thread began with the idea that Drow are somehow RP'd badly.  If I recall correctly, it became a weird hybrid discussion of how Drow (and other monstrous races) should behave and how they should be treated.  If there is something to the discussion besides that, please let me know, because I am lost otherwise.  I really, honestly, absolutely do not understand how limiting Drow to non-Good will help resolve the issue of behavior and treatment, so if someone could explain that I would appreciate it.

[Allorian]

Thank you Drizz...Thank you

[AeonBlues]

Ok Gulnvr, those are very valid, well thought out and well articulated points.  I have a lot to think about.  I have been trying to find a way to hear peoples concerns but not put my character through a major re development.

Thanks for your input, it is very constructive, and I will give this all a lot of thought.

Though it does kind of remind me of a time when Cym told a cleric of Vorax that she she spent too much time praying for her own might, and not enough about the might of others.  She later said, “Maybe you are right, I think Vorax is punishing me.”

Cym responded, “Maybe Vorax is punishing you for letting a dark elf shake your faith.”

Aeon

[Drizzlin]

Gulnyr - 9/27/2006  3:41 PM

Drizzlin - 9/27/2006  5:06 PM

The people who are saying CN only are the ones, for the most part, who do not want drow as PCs.

I don't want Drow as PCs, but they are and that's that.  I don't think there should be any limits to the alignment of Drow.  Forcing non-Good makes it harder to submit a Drow Cleric of Az'atta.  True Neutral is a permitted alignment for her Clerics, but it seems an odd one for a god who commands, "Do not be passive, but be an active force for good in Layonara."  A TN character who is "an active force for good" is not playing his alignment correctly, in my opinion.

The other people, again from what I have gathered, are the ones that are not adding anything constructive to this discussion outside of tryin to prove the "opinions" of others wrong.

You can't disprove an opinion, you can only debate its merits.  Sometimes, it helps to debate a little to better understand the other opinions.  I think the "problem" can be solved by player action, and that we don't need more rules and regulations.  I don't believe that limiting alignments for Drow will make a difference in how they are treated nor in how they behave.  Some people will still befriend Drow a little too easily, and some Drow will continue to prance about like sunburned Elves, as if no one is scared stupid by Drow.

Maybe I don't understand what the whole problem is.  I have a vague memory that this thread began with the idea that Drow are somehow RP'd badly.  If I recall correctly, it became a weird hybrid discussion of how Drow (and other monstrous races) should behave and how they should be treated.  If there is something to the discussion besides that, please let me know, because I am lost otherwise.  I really, honestly, absolutely do not understand how limiting Drow to non-Good will help resolve the issue of behavior and treatment, so if someone could explain that I would appreciate it.

I am not going to get into it with you Gulnyr. I will try to answer the question you asked, but that is it. You come off as an extremely argumentative person on these forums and are always out for a "debate". I am not, nor are the the VAST majority of others who posted here. A few wanted to suggest an idea, not debate their idea. If you don't like their ideas/opinions, just let it go. If you are willing to take some advice from me....follow your own advice. Stop trying to "disprove an opinion" or make people change their opinions to fall in suit with yours. I, along with others, do not get the feeling you are "trying to understand" what we are saying.


To answer your final question about how "limiting Drow to non-good will help resolve the issue of behavior and treatment".

It is simple. If the DMs limit the alignment and limit Drow to following Drow gods only, the problem will resolve fast. Well as soon as the soul mother gets rid of the previously approved drow. If everyone played Drow the way they were written in LORE, we would not have the other races accepting every single drow they meet in game with open arms. The problem right now is that is that every single PC Drow you run into right now on layonara is a good-two-shoes drow (outside of two or three drow TOPS). This is the reason drow are accepted with open arms. I do the best I can to represent the Drow community, when I'm logged in, in the spirit of how Drow are written in LORE, given the restrictions/rules of the server. I promise you, no one walks away from my Drow IC loving drow more and wanting to open their arms and accept them. Those that are nice to my drow, I am even meaner too. If every active PC drow approved, were RPed in the same fashion, the problems would go away.


If the DMs set the limits and make sure the people being approved to play drow, are people who will follow the guidelines, then two things will happen. First, the people who would have made that Drow paladin of Toran will not be approved and thus make a something else. Second, the people who will RP drow in the spirit of how they are written in LORE will become the norm and they will make sure the reputation of drow in game are as they are meant to be in LORE. In the end this will mean that every time a PC runs into a drow in game, it will be a pompous, surface hating, backstabbing, son of a spider drow.

Now before Aeonblue comes and gets me...=) The only exception will be followers of Az'atta, which should be rare. The DMs should regulate how many are approved. If the DMs treated/made it as hard for drow to becoming good, as they do for everyone to become Evil, there would not be a ton of good drow running around. How many evil aligned PCs do you see running around Layo? Why you ask? Because it is hard work and restricted by the DMs.

I know you might want to "debate" this with me, but I am not going to debate it. There really is nothing debate. The are no CE PCs, because the DMs don't approve them. There are NO evil PCs at CC, because the DMs do not approve them. The are SO few evil aligned PCs, because it is too much work in game for most, and the DMs limit them. Assimir PCs were once everywhere, and the DMs limited them to the point where you don't see many of them running around. The only "argument" you can give is the exception to the rule, which will become RARE if the DMs place a limitation for drow. People are nice to drow in game, because 99% of the drow they run into are nice to them. If the DMs limited the drow and set hard rules for their approval the numbers will change so that 99.9% of drow you run into are vicious, mean, and untrustworthy...the perceptions and behaviors from other PCs will reflect.

When the mail man comes to your door you smile and say thank you. If everytime you opened the door the mail man kicked you in the groin...your warm welcome and smile would go away quickly, along with the thanks.

[Gulnyr]

Drizzlin - 9/27/2006  9:28 PM

I promise you, no one walks away from my Drow IC loving drow more and wanting to open their arms and accept them. Those that are nice to my drow, I am even meaner too. If every active PC drow approved, were RPed in the same fashion, the problems would go away.

Excellent.  If we limit Drow to being played as jerks, no one will befriend them.  I get it.  That doesn't keep them walking around openly as if they had no worries, but at least it would handle the problem of overly friendly PCs.

Anyone else?  Insult me first if it makes you feel better.

[Leanthar]

Be nice folks. Be nice.