a possible answer for the drow problem

[Gulnyr]

Drizzlin - 9/1/2006  8:07 PM

As far as Az'atta, she is a Drow god and should be one of the small few IMO that Drow should be allowed to worship. IMO Drow who do worship Az'atta are the ones that should be on the surface and following her "good" ways. These Drow would have been the ones who ran away from the underdark to seek a place of acceptance.

This doesn't address the idea that Drow who escaped the to the surface may have families of their own.  A Drow that turned away from the evil ways may well seek redemption through service to Az'atta, that being Az'atta's thing.  But what of their children, who have no reason to be seeking redemption?  Why could those children not grow up to follow their own paths, perhaps in the service of gods who are allied with, or even friendly toward, Az'atta?  

Yes, I suppose most people write up their Drow as coming straight from the Underdark.  I suppose I could argue that a PC is not like a 'normal' person of his race; he's special somehow and does not necessarily share the 'normal mindset' of his race.  Should Dwarves be resricted to Vorax, Dorand, and maybe Sulterio, since Dwarven communities are more or less isolated, and Dwarves are generally conservative and very fond of tradition?

Let me make sure my position is clear.  I'm not a fan of Drow as a playable race.  I like them as villains only.  Ar7 made a recent post about the nature of confronting the generally unwelcome races in town (Drow, Orcs, Goblins...) and the futility of even trying.  Acacea has pointed out that Drow don't really have it bad, since they can still visit the shops and the craft halls and do everything the standard races can do.  I think the open arms toward Drow are the natural end result of the facts pointed out by Ar7 and Acacea, and I think it's unfortuante.  But this isn't my world; I just play here.  And here on Layonara, Drow are in.  Being in, there is no reason the imagination behind those characters should be restricted in any way.  If someone submits a character who is a Drow Paladin of Toran, and it passes the rules laid out for special subrace and Paladin submissions, then that character should be approved.

[Drizzlin]

Hey I agree with all your points, but my point is they should be limited and I suggested a way to limit them. What you say about Drow living on the surface being good and following Az'atta is fine, but it should be rare and not the norm.

The problem right now is Drow, as they are written do not exist for the most part. Instead almost all Drow are are exactly what was said earlier, Elves with a sun burn. You and I both agree that Drow can be good and should be allowed, but they should be RARE. The problem is they are not.

[Polak76]

Well youve touched on a subject that I've had a gripe with for a long time.  In this case Acacea summed it up pretty well.
I think the problem is the amount of good drow and the way people accept them with "open arms" even on first meeting.  But this doesnt just highlight drow but other races such as goblins, orcs, half giants..etc...even other alignments.
I remember once along time ago when my old character spotted an Orc in Hlint.  He was a brand new char to layo and walked around relatively unhindered and even was greeted formally.  I then walked up to him and started questioning him and even harrased him a little.  When the conversation was over he sent me a tell saying something like "thank god somebody had a go at me. Thanks for the abuse".  His sole purpose to RP the orc was to see how they functioned in a town and he wasn't receiving the outcome he desired.  Lets just say he was most disappointed.

My own personal feeling is that all drow should begin either CN or TN and follow the aligned gods or none at all.  To become good should be a slow process of CDQ's.  On the most rare occasions, and only if the bio was written beautifully should one be allowed who is LG or any other similar alignments.  We all love Drizzt and I think many of us would love to make a similar char.  But we must remember Drizzt is one in a million.

anyway thats my personal opinion.

Cheers,
Polak76

[Drizzlin]

I couldn't have said it better Polak76, and I love it when people treat my PC like a drow. It adds the fun I wanted when I made the PC. I also completely agree with the restriction on alignment for the drow that you suggested.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I have to say that of all the Drow on Layo, Daralith Del'Mar is the most Drow-like of them (that I've ever seen, anyhow).

All of my other point have been stated, mostly by Acacea; I mainly just want to help support raising the requirements for Drow in particular to the same as the requirements for a CN character - Drow of ANY alignment should be as difficult or more to roleplay as the True Chaotic alignment.

I would never, myself, say someone is a "bad" RPer. A "poor" RPer, perhaps... Different connotations and all that. The thing is that even the players I was -disgusted- with when they first joined up have improved very noticably, and, after I thought about it, at a faster rate than I did, back when I started RPing at RPGChat. All it really takes to be a "good" or "skilled" Roleplayer is experience, maturity, and decent writing abilities.

All of which come with time.

Oh, and to head back from my tangent... I'm glad to see all of the subraces restricted, including half-elves and half-orcs. I personally love half-orcs, and wish we had more of them, but understand that in this campaign, they're just rare.

[Deacon]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 9/2/2006  6:32 PM

I have to say that of all the Drow on Layo, Daralith Del'Mar is the most Drow-like of them (that I've ever seen, anyhow).

Well you and Caldiir should have to meet sometime.  

Polak and Drizzlin are now both my heroes.  They have said some things that really make sense, and they could work.  I agree with you both in how I want my character to be treated.  When I'm being my true Drow self, I like it when people get in heated arguments with me.  Mostly because I can always come off with the last word, and it makes the game more interesting.  Furthermore, if you take a look at the writings in popular D&D books, you will see that even Drizzt, who has been on the surface for years and saved countless lives still had to tread cautiously in towns where he was not known.

Also, I like the idea of Drow PC's being required to RP their good alignment through months of in game time.  The reason I am in support of this is because in those same popular writings, there are a handful of Drow who are good aligned.  That is only a few of an entire race, and those who are good aligned still worship a Drow god.  This means that a lot of what Drizzlin is saying is true, Drow are inherently born with malcontent in their hearts, and are only taught the teachings of Drow deities.  

But that is FR, Layonara is completely different!  I agree, but the similarities far outweigh the differences.  One of the main differences I see in Layonara and FR as far as Drow are concerned is that the Drow society is not so female ruled.  The sexes are more equal, and the deities are different.  The overall psyche of the Drow in both campaigns remain the same.  

If it were me, I would also limit the alignments available at character creation.  The alignments that I would allow would only be TN and CN.  Never would good be approved at CC.  This would help limit the amount of good Drow on the server, and make the setting mroe realistic.  

Gulnyr - 9/1/2006  8:17 PM
And here on Layonara, Drow are in.  Being in, there is no reason the imagination behind those characters should be restricted in any way.  If someone submits a character who is a Drow Paladin of Toran, and it passes the rules laid out for special subrace and Paladin submissions, then that character should be approved.

I could not disagree more.  Now, don't get me wrong I am a fan of creativity since it makes the world as a whole more interesting.  However, there are limitations on a lot of the other subraces.  For example, Brownies are required to be Good or Neutral and never Chaotic; Half-giants are required to be Non-lawful.  Should they be changed because they limit creativity?

I submit no.  The reason they are limited is because there are certain traits and ideologies of those races that make these restrictions necesarry.  The same should hold true for Drow, because as already stated the only thing that they know is what the priests and priestesses of their Evil Aligned deities teach them.  Not only that, but the Chaotic nature of Drow makes it impossible for one to be good straight out of the Underdark.  

I further agree that the followers of Az'atta could concievably reproduce and have families on the surface.  However, as Drizzlin said, these Drow should not be the norm.  And these same Drow would be severely hated by any other Drow who follows one of the evil deities, especially Baraeon Ca'duz.  

Another point I wanted to address which Acacea brought up, is that of the treatment that Drow recieve while in Hlint and the surrounding towns.  It would be interesting to see what would happen if one day a Drow was unable to buy and sell anything within Hlint.  I have seen merchants refuse service to elves on a different server, why not on Layonara?  I am not the one to answer that, because I am not the Creator only a player.  However, what CAN be changed is the behavior of other PC's.  I have been able to waltz through Hlint on many occasions, without a single person confronting me.  Most of the time if I am confronted, it is by a person whom Caldiir has already made mad in the past, or it is a Dwarf properly roleplaying a Dwarf.

I keep going back to the fact that Hlint has been invaded MANY times by Drow, and yet noone in the town seems to care.  Out of the two years I have played as Caldiir, only once has he been forced out of town.  It should be everytime he steps into the city walls.

*Pants as though he is out of breath*

Sorry it is so long folks, but I had to put my word in on a subject that I am passionate about.

Deacon

[Gulnyr]

Drizzlin - 9/1/2006  4:03 PM

... a Drow should never follow in the first place, especially Drow following elven Gods. Now I know the next argument will be, "well I wrote this up, and my Drow did this to become good and was accepted by Toran...".

Gulnyr - 9/1/2006  9:17 PM

Why could those children not grow up to follow their own paths, perhaps in the service of gods who are allied with, or even friendly toward, Az'atta?

The second is a direct response to the first.  It is a reasonable concept that allows a Drow to be non-evil and follow a non-Drow god, thus countering the "never allowed to" argument.  

Gulnyr - 9/1/2006 8:17 PM

And here on Layonara, Drow are in. Being in, there is no reason the imagination behind those characters should be restricted in any way. If someone submits a character who is a Drow Paladin of Toran, and it passes the rules laid out for special subrace and Paladin submissions, then that character should be approved.

This is just me getting all libertarian.  Maybe there should be rules that limit Drow alignment *shrug*, but as long as there aren't, I'm going to argue that imagination should not be limited.  The Drow Paladin of Toran, Synal'dur, is a well played Drow.  This is a character who is always covered head to toe in armor.  I'll admit I haven't seen him lately, but not once have I ever seen him without a helmet and full armor, completely covered.  You can't just look at him and know he's a Drow.  Jennara thinks he's just some regular ol' Elf.  He doesn't walk about town openly, expecting to be embraced by hippie crowds and ignored by commoners and guards.  He hides who he is on the outside and lets who he is on the inside show through the armor.  Can anyone give me any reason why that character should not exist, or why a similar character shouldn't be allowed?

Deacon - 9/3/2006  2:50 AM

However, what CAN be changed is the behavior of other PC's. I have been able to waltz through Hlint on many occasions, without a single person confronting me. Most of the time if I am confronted, it is by a person whom Caldiir has already made mad in the past, or it is a Dwarf properly roleplaying a Dwarf.

I keep going back to the fact that Hlint has been invaded MANY times by Drow, and yet noone in the town seems to care. Out of the two years I have played as Caldiir, only once has he been forced out of town. It should be everytime he steps into the city walls.

Go here, scroll down to Ar7's post, and read his first point.  That's what it turns into.  It is more the fault of the Drow players than the other characters' players.  The Drow openly display themselves in town, metagaming the knowledge that the NPCs are not going to do anything, and metagaming the knowledge that no other character can really do anything to them because we have no PvP.  Garent won't attack, Vale will trust them with letters, the vendors will sell them anything, and they can scoff in the face of a huge mob and stand fast in town, making silly faces until the mob decides that the metagaming Drow isn't fun any more.  Since there is no way for a player to know how a given Drow will react, and far too many fall back on the metagaming, it's just not worth the effort to confront them, or the Goblins or Orcs or Half Giants or anyone else.  Yes, it would be wonderful if the players of Drow would start having their characters act like Drow "should" on the surface, and it would be great if other characters would react appropriately, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Deacon]

Gulnyr - 9/3/2006  12:33 PM

Can anyone give me any reason why that character should not exist, or why a similar character shouldn't be allowed?

No I cannot give you any reason why the character should not exist.  However, I think that the character (if he is indeed a Drow straight from the Underdark) should have to start out as Neutral and roleplay his acceptance into the Toranite Order.  That would require an expansion from the 2 available alignments I originally stated to include LN.  I would see no problem with this because there are LE Drow in the Underdark.

What about those born on the surface?  If a Drow is born on the surface from a couple followers of Az'atta, it seems logical to me that these Drow would grow up worhipping Az'atta and nothing else since they woul grow up around their parents and not priests of Toran, who I might add, would apsolutely despise Drow since they embody chaos, evil, treachery, and all things nasty...I.E. everything Toran does not represent.  

I'm not saying that a Drow should not be allowed to play a Paladin of Toran.  I'm saying that a Drow Paladin of Toran, or any Drow wanting to be Good aligned should undergo months of roleplaying in order to indicate to the GM team, the players around them, and the other 'True Drow' that they are indeed a different breed.

On the other point, I agree with Ar7 about the metagaming and uselessness of trying to RP hatred towards the monster races.  It is just too hard to crack down on this, and with the limitations on PvP it is indeed next to impossible to force the character in game to do anything.  The only thing that can be done is for the player to actually RP the burden of merchants refusing service, of the NPC's on the lookout for Drow and so forth.  However, as has been said that task is far too large to handle at the moment.

-EDIT-

Even I am guilty of this metagaming without even being totally aware of it.  This thread has doen some good to bring some ideas and such to my eyes that I had not noticed before.  I for one will be roleplaying Caldiir a bit different.  Hopefully others take notice and begin treating him accordingly.

[Vyris]

Deacon - 9/3/2006  12:48 PM



What about those born on the surface?  If a Drow is born on the surface from a couple followers of Az'atta, it seems logical to me that these Drow would grow up worhipping Az'atta and nothing else since they woul grow up around their parents and not priests of Toran, who I might add, would apsolutely despise Drow since they embody chaos, evil, treachery, and all things nasty...I.E. everything Toran does not represent.

I'm a different religion than my parents, I imagine my children will fall in wherever they feel comfortable too.

It would seem logical to me that the parents might be devout followers of Az'atta, but the children would have a broader perspective, and the third generation would be even broader.

If it were up to me Drow would be monsters, period. It bothers me far more that I'm not allowed to pummel drow PC's into puddles of goo than it does that 90% of the Drow I see in game have a prince charming complex... or maybe it's Rodney King (Can't we all just get along). Either way. Since there is no down side to playing 'The most evil and hated race' I just tend to ignore them. Perhaps thats poor RP on my part, but if I can't follow through with my characters logical RP and leave a steaming pile of Drow guts in the middle of the street, I don't want to bother with the RP at all.

Berdin would not stop at trading insults with a known drow.

My suggestion would be:

Restrict Drow PC's like CN alignment. Make Drow start out as CN or TN.
Allow PvP on Drow PC's. Want them to fear coming to town? Let them get chased out by a mob that can actually do something about it. Conversely, a high level Drow PC could be a real bugger if he wanted. Play your evilness to the hilt.

Anyway.. not my sandbox, I just play with the toys that are here.

Vyris

[Niles09]

Now, my time has been limited so I havent read all the posts in here, so sorry if Im answering something completly wrong or taking up an old discussion, as a player of a good drow I just felt like defending myself.

I think good drows is just as normal as evil ones, because of their evil heritage. While some drows raisen in evil and cruelty turn out to be evil themselves, others ecpicially those who surffers without being able to fight back those in really weak positions, will turn out to be the completly oppostie of evil, followers and fighters of goodness, why? Because they have indeed seen what evil and cruelty leads too, and therefore takes distance from it. I think this is represented very well by the fact that one of the only (or only) gods that dont even have a favorite weapon because she simply dont like the killing of living beings is a drow. Drows truly holds the potential to turn very very evil, but because of that they also hold the potential to be fighters of peace and understanding. And well Daralith and Caldiir, how deep has you two ever RP'ed with a good drow? Since our kind usually dislikes you like elves we might look like them, but most good drows I know, are indeed marked by their past.

About the gods, why should Toran not accept a drow? Gods arent earthly beings filled with prejustice, they are wiser than that. Besides take a paladin in dnd. If he turnes into a blackguard he will be rewarded for every level of paladin by evil, because the evil gods enjoy watching a defender of good turn to them, therefore they welcome him with open arms. Wouldnt the opposite be just as big a victory for a good god?

About the general public of Hlint welcoming drows openly, I can only agree. If those of Carduz or Vierdi'ira where smart they would one by one send their agents to Hlint until they had an army there, the public would never know what hit them.

[Drizzlin]

Gulnyr - 9/3/2006  10:33 AM


"This is just me getting all libertarian. Maybe there should be rules that limit Drow alignment *shrug*, but as long as there aren't, I'm going to argue that imagination should not be limited. "

Which you are allowed to do, but it is just arguing to argue. What I, along with others here are saying is that limitations should be placed. I am personally not arguing to argue, I'm simply giving a possible solution to a problem and thus trying to help. There are current limitations on Layonara to balance the game and give it diversity already. Some of those “limitations” are great for the server and were created by suggestions from players. Right now there is little to no diversity among Drow in Layonara because the majority of Drow are playing “elves with a sunburn”. Suggestions on how to reach those limitations are what we need, not arguments for sport.

By your own words you are just arguing because you can. The players of Drow, such as me and the others who posted above are not speaking here to just argue. We actually feel there is a problem with the way the Drow race is portrayed, accepted, and currently being approved on Layonara. I for one don’t want to come here just to argue with people who want to argue. I am trying to add constructive suggestions for a possible solution to the current problems that the Drow community is facing on Layonara. Now I appreciate any suggestions or input you may have, but I don’t want to argue just because one can. I honestly feel that the issue brought here is valid and should be looked at.

Gulnyr - 9/3/2006  10:33 AM

"The Drow Paladin of Toran, Synal'dur, is a well played DrowYou can't just look at him and know he's a Drow. Jennara thinks he's just some regular ol' Elf. He doesn't walk about town openly, expecting to be embraced by hippie crowds and ignored by commoners and guards. He hides that he is on the outside and lets that he is on the inside show through the armor. Can anyone give me any reason why that character should not exist, or why a similar character shouldn't be allowed?"

I have to disagree with this, especially the hiding part. Paladins are among the most proud and visible that there are. Hiding one’s true self is not what I think of when I think of a Lawful Paladin of any God. I am not saying an exception can’t be made, but it just doesn’t seem like a Lawful Paladin who would be hiding at all. I am not attacking the player you mentioned, I have never actually seen them in game.

The second point is about detecting a Drow or Elf. While I agree that the average human may not be able to distinguish a Drow from an Elf, you can bet an Elf and a Drow know one from the other, even if covered in armor. Drow and Elf move different than humans and they are extremely agile. The agility and dexterity of a Drow is one of the major characteristics of how they can sign in the underdark. What Deacon said about Layonara having a lot of similarities with FR is true. You also have to keep in mind that Dark Elf (Drow) came from RA Salvatore and Forgotten Realms. One of the reasons Drizzt said he could not teach the Drow Sign language to Catti-brie was due to her lacking the agility and dexterity of a Drow.

Drow and Elf are not the same size. Drow are smaller than Elf, especially the males. While Layonara’s Lore section only briefly touches on the differences, they are still huge. The eye color and black skin are almost impossible to hide anyway, even through the visor of a helm. I am not saying through years of disguise and hard work that an elf or Drow could not try to pass as one or the other through completely trying to cover their bodies and face, but why would they? Drow and Elf hate each other and neither would want to be like the other. I am sure you can give me a reason why one would want to, but my counter is that it should be rare and not the norm, which it currently is on Layonara.

[Drizzlin]

Niles09 - 9/3/2006  1:17 PM

And well Daralith and Caldiir, how deep has you two ever RP'ed with a good drow?

Yes Daralith has, and they never forget him. Ask Cymeran or any other follower of Az'atta. Daralith told him, "Az'atta is nothing but a backstabing betrayer". Daralith spoke the truth, through his teachings and always does.

As far as other "good" Drow, Daralith always makes sure to leave a mark on them, along with any "non good" Drow he runs into. Daralith however keeps in mind that Drow are Drow. Good or bad he knows what they are capable of.

[Niles09]

Drizzlin - 9/3/2006  10:31 AM

Niles09 - 9/3/2006  1:17 PM

And well Daralith and Caldiir, how deep has you two ever RP'ed with a good drow?

Yes Daralith has, and they never forget him. Ask Cymeran or any other follower of Az'atta. Daralith told him, "Az'atta is nothing but a backstabing betrayer". Daralith spoke the truth, through his teachings and always does.

As far as other "good" Drow, Daralith always makes sure to leave a mark on them, along with any "non good" Drow he runs into. Daralith however keeps in mind that Drow are Drow. Good or bad he knows what they are capable of.

Yes Im quite aware of that, but there is a difference between RP'ing the differences of people and going deep into their background.

EDIT: My fault in my orignal post, deep RP was a bad choice of words. What I meant is, Caldiir and Daralith are obviosly evil, at least thats how Zan have met them, and therefore she as a good drow, is very hostile (maybe even arrogant) and therefore they will never know her inner problems because of her heritage.

[steverimmer]

The Drow openly display themselves in town, metagaming the knowledge that the NPCs are not going to do anything, and metagaming the knowledge that no other character can really do anything to them because we have no PvP. Garent won't attack, Vale will trust them with letters, the vendors will sell them anything, and they can scoff in the face of a huge mob and stand fast in town, making silly faces until the mob decides that the metagaming Drow isn't fun any more. Since there is no way for a player to know how a given Drow will react, and far too many fall back on the metagaming, it's just not worth the effort to confront them, or the Goblins or Orcs or Half Giants or anyone else. Yes, it would be wonderful if the players of Drow would start having their characters act like Drow "should" on the surface, and it would be great if other characters would react appropriately, but I don't see that happening any time soon

 

I agree with this too, to a certain extent anyway...I think it might be less of a problem with Hlint which is a self confessed 'adventurers town' drawing all sorts of races seeking adventure.  So its always had its share of monster races albeit a small share.  Obviously these races will draw antagonism and hostility towards themselves but less so than in other towns and cities in the world, or so it seems to me.  I remember when I first made Bilvikki, one of the main reasons I chose the school of illusion for his specialist school of magic, was that I thought he'd use illusion extensively just to survive in a non goblin town.  Of course most of the illusion spells in the PnP spellbook are just not available in NWN so it was just a token effort in the end.  But if the game supported spells like 'disguse self' for instance, I don't think many other players would know that, he was in fact a goblin.  Of course now he's been in Hlint for a very long time and not only that he's an acomplished wizard to boot so he's well known to the authorites.  I still mourn the fact though that he can't use his spell school in the way I originally hoped.  But he still does generate hostility and suspicion from other players, even now and thats all to the good.

What I'm really trying to say that there are limits to NWN which wouldn't be there in a PnP game and so some allowance has to made for that. However this doesn't mean that monster races should be ignored and treated as other races, rather people should treat them fully IC. I like the idea mentioned above though about the drow and alignments and I think that would make the drow a much more interesting race to play.

I would also like to point out though that it can be difficult to play a character who does have a deep prejudice to another race. I once had a Svirfneblin who literally hated drow and showed it every time he met one, years of persecution by them, death of his kin by them etc. He was a great character one I did like to play but I dropped him after it became apparent that he was causing too many problems for people, not IC within the game, but in RL and this was reflected in the forums.

[Gulnyr]

Drizzlin - 9/3/2006  4:19 PM

By your own words you are just arguing because you can.

Which words?  

I never argue just to argue.  I truly believe that since there are no restrictions on the application standards, no one has created an inappropriate Drow, nor can they create one.  I also truly believe that changing the standards for approval to limit deity and alignment choice will not solve the problem.  Players of Drow characters will still metagame.  Drow will still be accepted or ignored, they will still scoff at the mob, they will still run errands for Postmaster Vale and Ronus, and they will still shop freely in the shops.

We actually feel there is a problem with the way the Drow race is portrayed, accepted, and currently being approved on Layonara.

Me, too, but the problem is not that there are Good Drow or Drow Paladins.  The problem is that there are not the negatives that there should be for Drow.  

I hate Drow as PCs.  Hate 'em.  I don't believe people can be trusted to play them "right", and I think all the effort to make systems that make Drow hated (like making Garent attack or the shops refuse to sell) could be better spent elsewhere. But if they are going to be allowed, and they are supposed to be the most hated race ever, there must be the negatives that make that true in place before they are allowed as PCs.  That's not the case currently, and that's nobody's fault.  It just happened that way.  So now we have a little problem.  The best way to fix it is to start over from scratch, which means waiting for the next version of Layonara.  A more immediate solution is to remove all the Drow PCs, but that's really not fair to the players.  Relying on the players to play Drow "properly" is not any solution at all, since it is inevitable that someone will fall to the temptations of metagaming and ruin the whole thing for everyone.  It's human nature.

[Gulnyr]

steverimmer - 9/3/2006  4:48 PM

I think it might be less of a problem with Hlint which is a self confessed 'adventurers town' drawing all sorts of races seeking adventure.  So its always had its share of monster races albeit a small share.  

Yeah, Hlint's not a perfect example, but it is a convenient one because everyone is familiar with Hlint and it's a place that has been directly attacked by Drow rather recently.

[Vyris]

Drizzlin - 9/3/2006  2:19 PM

You also have to keep in mind that Dark Elf (Drow) came from RA Salvatore and Forgotten Realms.  

You are wrong. Drizzt came from R.A. Salvatore, Drow were around long before forgotten realms.

At least as a monster race... where they should have stayed.

Vyris

[Polak76]

hehehe...Gulnyr dont get too cranky.  Not all PC's RP drow badly (actually a select few I've met a rather great RPers).  Maybe you'll meet my new Cleric of Vierdri'ira, but i rather doubt it.  She doesnt really stop to talk with anyone and I'm never really online much these days which makes it even better for her.  (mind you, if anyone see's her running around and immediately picks her to be a drow send me a tell first before you react in anyway towards her.  This is so we can roll opposing checks.  I've got her heavily cloaked and using bluff.)

Anyway in future for Layo 2 it would be ideal if we could have a separate place for races to begin, grow and develop without needing to interact with enemy races.  Now that would probably take too much time, effort and resources so I guess we'll have to dream it.  I used to play drow on an Aussie server down here called drow wars (world of edon).  Typically you were a surfacer (kivvyl) or from the underdark being a drow or slave (rothe) to the drow.  Basically they made two worlds, above and below and each side had the same resources, difficulty in mosnters, items and similar quests.  Players RP'ed there character well as it was PvP should oposing sides meet.  We even had battles among ourselves with leading houses against others and wars between the dark gods.  All in all it was fantastic and one could even spend their whole existance and make epic levels in the underdark without seeing the sun once.  If this could be possible it would solve alot of problems on Layo at the moment -

*Firstly drow would be attacked on sight should their identity be discovered (thus allowing PvP).
*Players would then only venture to the surface at their own risk, thus avoiding metagaming.
*If you wanted to RP a good Dark Elf you'd be in for a ride with serious RP and CDQ's (which is how it should be)
*Only serious RPers would take on the challenge of playing one.

In my opinion you cant have the best of both worlds.  If you pick a typically evil race you should be mentally focused and prepared to play them that way.  I remember I had a drow chick once and got into an argument with another drow chick from another party who shouted to her comrads something like.."look, she's a drow!  She's a traitor!".  Lets just say I almost fell off my chair at that little commotion.

Look, maybe it's just me but it doesnt gel right playing drow good, so dont get offended if you do.  To me it's like some sort of juxtaposition.  I think a little of my personal distatste came out when my old char Ramanon used to constantly fight with Syn, but it made for interesting RP.

Anyway I hope Layo 2 brings a new flavor to the whole topic.

Cheers,
Polak76

[ZeroVega]

Gonna weigh in here. I'll end up repeating things that people have said and that's fine with me as long as it's alright with everyone else.
  1. I like playing drow. I like playing with drow. I find them to be a very exciting subrace and I find it much easier to be creative with them than other subraces. It's just what fits me better (or fit me better since I don't really know any more).
  2. Drow do not have a "bad reputation". (I've said it in the past, but I think now, that I was wrong.) They have a bad history. It's not speculation or gossip; rumor or fear of the unknown. They've done terrible things (hehe, I speak as if they're real). Their actions have touched almost every corner of the world. What have we established then? You should have a good RP reason for trusting a drow off the bat (as many players have done in my Layo career). Either woefully ignorant, blissfully naieve, flat out stupid or the eternal optomist who thinks there is good in everyone.
  3. Drow probably shouldn't start off in Hlint, that much is clear and has been started a thousand times. It don't make sense but is it that important right now that we must restate it? Maybe we could have a GM run over this topic and just put "Noted" by all of the ideas that the GMs see and are considering.
  4. Yes yes yes they are (along with Aasimar) the most powerful subrace in Layonara.
  5. What do I think needs to be done? Exactly what they're doing now and exactly what I think they'll do come NwN2. Wait for the world to become populated with Humans, Elves, Halflings, Dwarves and Gnomes (we need more Gnomes... never enough Gnomes...) before opening up certain subraces. Set prerequisites as to who can even apply for drow-ship and then even more limits on what must be in the Bio in order for it to be approved.
  Gonna sum up quickly with blunt statements.
  1. Our GMs ain't stupid. They can see what's happening, they hear the complaints and just because you can't hear them talking or see them working don't mean they ain't.
  2. Our players have varying levels of RP experiance, maturity and creativity. Maturity must be felt out by the GMs and players; it can be brought up through discipline and by the example of other players. Creativity (or lack thereof) must be made up for and understood. Help a brotha out, so to speak, and don't knock him down cause he don't got the most flowry n' wordy story. RP experiance comes with time; that's why they have the 10 month rule for CN characters. (Think it's 10.)
  3. I'm done. I'm hungry. And tired. Happy Labor Day. Go eat food.
  ZV-

[Chongo]

A lot of folks have been mentioning different start points, and I'm not sure if anyone has addressed the problems with this, but here's a vantage on that one at least.

A primary goal of a server at it's beginning is to create an area of maximum gravity to pull players together to bring about greater ease of roleplay situations or finding a group.  This achieves a few goals, the first and foremost building a sustainable playerbase from grass root beginnings.  Which is not easy.  The 'Hlint' type meeting point, the crossroads of the server, is a lot more then just a spawn point for players.  It's what the server initially revolved around to get going and pick up speed.

A lot of servers out there have begun under grandiose pretense of a massive world with kingdoms, empires, civilizations... all leading to multiple spawn points that ultimately only serve to spread out the playerbase.  I mean, it's great in theory and when you write it out in a book... but it doesn't work.  Now Layonara has a pretty awesome playerbase.  You don't see it like Layo has except on maybe two other RP servers out there (of which Layo is undisputed emperor of all things fun).  So yeah, it's doable with this many people to have multiple spawn points, but the way the general layout of Layo is set up, I just don't think it's conducive to creating a natural crossroads for people to link up using different spawn points.  There *has* to be a Hlint.  Maybe in the future this Hlint can be a place that's designed to gather all PC's from different spawn points as they have to travel through it or some other natural draw.  Some place that has a nuetral atmosphere and an extremely desirable gather point that just makes players want to pass through.  But I'd still say that the different spawn point needs to be no more then a couple maps of travel off this center of gravity.

We end up taking for granted the playerbase here.  The groups of 15+ on that single map square all chatting away.  Almost so much as to wish there were fewer people around.  But think about that new player and how you're going to keep him on your server.  The single greatest thing is going to be maximum exposure to the existing playerbase so that the new player can find friends and immediately build relationships and a connection to the server.  We forget that quickly once we're engrained in the playerbase and know our friends.

If you ask me, and I know you're all holding your breath here, we should all always start at the intended center of gravity for the server.  For NWN 2 I say make a city the start point and make that city neutral racially and alignment-wise so that all things have a place there.  And if a certain race doesn't belong there, get rid of it for PCs.  A very rich city with multiple taverns and buildings circling one obvious and wonderfully built center stage that everyone's going to pass through and gather in.  Let the drow go to their tavern or whatever hole they find gathering in comfortable.  But make that gathering point the center of all travel on the world to keep the spirit of a roleplay server and keep drawing in new talent instead of spreading it out.

Everyone needs a Hlint to go home to at night.  And without it new players will go elsewhere.