The World of Layonara
The Layonara Community => General Discussion => Topic started by: Wraithdur on September 01, 2006, 03:02:09 am
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yes, it's that time of the day again: time to complain about the drow!
the real problem isn't that there are drow, just that drow are sometimes awful at RP.
all you have to do is put limits on who can play them (which the creator has done by stopping all new sub-race characters), a more long term solution is to make sure that only experienced players (who actually can RP) are allowed to create drow characters, have rules similar to CN limitations.
or (this could work), only allow a player to create a drow PC when a DM has seen the player RP well, and can deal with the drow circumstances.
DM sends the player a PM on the forums saying (for example):
because of your briliant roleplay (demontrated yesterday), i have decided that you are capable of succesfully playing a drow character and can cope with the dificult RP situation.
see?
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Many drow players are good RPers. I do not think a blanket statement, "drow players are bad RPers" is appropriate.
The "drow issue" is a semi-complex one, due to many factors such as:
- Hlint's role as a THE gathering point of all characters regardless of type
- Limitations on evil characters
- % of the player base who would like to play a drow character
I think the second is really the most important factor that resulted in the unique issue we're having on layonara with drow right now (and to varying degrees in the past.)
I have seen the similar issue of too many drow (or various "rare" subrace) on many other servers that offer similar options to players. However, since a vast majority of other servers allow evil characters and many allow PvP in some less restricted form than is available on layonara, their problem ends up quite different, even though the population dynamic problem is the same. They end up with too many drow that are almost all evil and sometimes end up with bad situations that the DMs don't intend to be representative of the reality of the story they're trying to tell. Like, a bunch of drow players are on at the same time and they decide to go attack the main "good guys" city, and... end up winning. Despite the fact that the city is supposed to be really well guarded and occupied by all the PC hero's etc. hehe.
So, we have a more unique problem than just too many drow. Though that in and of itself is often a problem.
Hmm, I don't think I really have a point I'm trying to prove, just pontificating on the issue as a whole.
In conclusion, pontificating is a good word, and sleep deprivation causes one's prose to tend to wander.
Thank you.
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Wraithdur - 9/1/2006 11:02 AM the real problem isn't that there are drow, just that drow are mostly awful at RP.
No the real problem is postings like this. It is rude and offensive which demonstrates a disturbing lack of respect for your fellow players.
If you wish to be taken seriously please adress your fellow players in a manner befiting this forum.
The DM team work very hard for balance within the world and there have been stops on races before that were in no way linked to how the present characters were RP'ed.
The point was raised that we should limit a few races as we tend to suffer from influxes, some people play them well, some badly...That can be said of character classes too!
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Good reply DMOE.
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in what manner should i make complaints like this?
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Like everything in life the minority gives the rest a bad name i have met some really good Drow RPers and they play their character well but it does strike me odd that every drow i meet is friendly :). But having elvis' ghost nudge you about while he is in stealth mode makeing you move around when not wanting to is not RP and annoying.
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i am sorry and i now realise that most bad RPers just stick out more, there are (now that i think about it) quite well RP'd drow characters.
but what are we supposed to do about the minority of bad RP'ers?
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Remember that many players are new to the whole concept of RP when they start out on Layonara. Give these people time to adapt. We all started somewhere.
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This solution, albeit temporary, seems to work just fine for me:
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29613&posts=1&start=1
A while back, roughly a year ago drow submissions were closed for a long time. Over time, the drow started to fade a bit and only a few drow were around after that. I think this will work just as well as that solution did.
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Wraithdur - 9/1/2006 12:02 PM i am sorry and i now realise that most bad RPers just stick out more, there are (now that i think about it) quite well RP'd drow characters. but what are we supposed to do about the minority of bad RP'ers?
Define a bad RP'er... I'll give an example... I have an elven character...She doesn't act very elven...She acts quite human in fact So you met her in Hlint...See she doesn't act very elven and decided I'm a bad RP'er Of course if you RP'ed with her for a length of time you'd discover that she actually grew up as one of only four elves in a human settlement, thus explaining why she doesn't act very elven at all But if you don't RP with her and go off that first impression, I'm a bad RP'er... So ban me for not playing a very elven elf when you have no idea of my character background or why she acts’s that way? Yes...I suppose every community will have it's share of what could be considered by some as 'bad Rp'ers' I tend to find from experience that people who don't enjoy RP leave Layo very quickly thanks to the fact that we are a RP world, something the DM Team strives hard to promote. But I for one never want to see anything done about 'bad RP'ers' as what makes a bad RP'er is very subjective and not something we should police. The DM team do what they can to ensure alignments, character classes (where appropriate, like say paladins) are all being played correctly and that in my mind is the ONLY thing that should be being done.
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of course.
you are correct.
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Drow to me are just like Tieflings. They're funny lookin', they're unusual, they don't belong here, and yet there they are. So what are we supposed to do about them? Well, everyone seems to trust them at first, but maybe we just have an excess of polite characters. If you look around, and look at how people interact on the server, it's easy to notice that a great number of people (and espically characters) are indeed very polite. So, it is not hard to assume that the characters being played here are not so much accepting of the Drow than they are having a quiet vigiliance while they're around. If they are evil, they will eventually do something evil. If they aren't, they will eventually stand out as good; or atleast a limp-wristed neutral character.
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*tosses his drow / dualist idea out the window* ah well :)
When we 1st had these new races and such the amount allowed was limited. I hope it goes back to that once things even out again.
My possible answer to the drow problem.
Play your character as they should when dealing with Drow... if you character IS a Drow... play them as you submitted them.
Have fun!
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I happen to RP a Drow, and I am possitve if you ask anyone who has RPed with Daralith, I RP a drow. Now I know you are not singling me out, I am simply saying I know where you are trying to say, or at least I think I do.
Not that I agree with you completely, but I do agree there is a huge problem with drow on layonara. I do not feel the problem is with "bad RP". I feel the problem is with Drow following Gods that a Drow should never follow in the first place, especially Drow following elven Gods. Now I know the next argument will be, "well I wrote this up, and my Drow did this to become good and was accepted by Toran...".
I feel that the only way a Drow should be allowed to follow a god outside of a Drow god, should be done in game via DM approval and it should be as hard to obtain as an Evil alignment. Drow on the surface should/are not born there, they come from the underdark where they should only know of and follow underdark gods. There summoning to Hlint should be there first introduction to gods outside of Drow and that is why it should be a quest done later.
My suggestion to what I consider the problem to be, is that Drow should not only be limited on approval, but they should have strict restrictions on what Diety they can follow. That change alone would limit Toran following Drow =P.
If Drow were limited to following a Drow diety, you would see less of what I am assuming you call "bad RPing drow".
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Drizzlin - 9/1/2006 2:03 PM
There summoning to Hlint should be there first introduction to gods outside of Drow and that is why it should be a quest done later.
No one is summoned to hlint anymore, the dragon is gone.
In time I imagine the starting area(s) will grow to refelct this (though if I had to make a guess, I'd say it might not be until nwn2.)
Disclaimer: The above information is personal speculation and not really based on anything official.. or.. anything at all.
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Perhaps it's appropriate for them to worship another god. Whether they're accepted as a cleric or something is a different argument, but if they're not a divine-oriented character I'd probably let a misguided dwarf worship Grand if you gave me enough backstory. (Let's not test the exaggerated example though...) Drow RPing drow is as much a problem as anything else, as the populace cannot RP their reaction to drow RPing drow. The only reason all the good drow are actually a problem is because of how they are welcomed, which is with open arms. One of the huge penalties of playing a Dark Elf should be the RP baggage of being driven out of towns, unable to purchase things from merchants, forced to hide their face or cling to shadows, but none of this is the case and instead they are essentially elves with sunburns, buying from anywhere and everywhere, openly drow in Hampshire, Spellgard, Hlint, wherever. I feel that there are simple solutions to this that don't necessarily need to restrict them to evil-only, or pull them as a playable race, or even require massive amounts of paperwork. The reason I said drow RPing drow was as much a problem as anything else is because whenever I see it, it is done just as openly as the other drow. A drow being good openly and undisguised and roleplaying that he is welcomed all over the world is annoying yes. A drow being threatening, dangerous, and offensive openly and undisguised is to me just roleplaying that the NPCs wouldn't burn them at the stake. While the former has always seemed a little metagamey to me, the latter one is blatant abuse of AI in my opinion. I don't care if we have good drow. I don't care if we have offensive drow. I like offensive. It's more interesting. It is the neglect of the consequences that are first troublesome and then tiresome and then just plain annoying to me. This was not meant to be a direct reply to the post above this one, as I don't recall the "open and undisguised abuse of no PvP" applying to them, just that forcing all drow to be jerks isn't necessarily a solution since there would still be no consequences for it. A Toranite drow paladin who acts annoying lawful good is not bad RP. He's a Toranite paladin. It's what his character does. Calling the good drow who RP being good drow, "bad RPers" is not appropriate. Should there less of them? Probably. Will there be? They'll fade off for a time like G said, yeah. It's when there is a blatant lack of acknowledgement of the things that would happen as a result of their actions, that cannot, that it drifts into another zone. I personally think it would be easy to add things to help this even without PvP or evil, along with some things to help paladins keep their oaths without constant supervision, but for right now, no drow submitted after yesterday will be approved, as they and all the other subraces are on hold. (http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29613&posts=1&start=1) So for the moment, that is your Answer to Drow.
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Acacea - 9/1/2006 1:46 PM I don't care if we have good drow. I don't care if we have offensive drow. I like offensive. It's more interesting. It is the neglect of the consequences that are first troublesome and then tiresome and then just plain annoying to me. This was not meant to be a direct reply to the post above this one, as I don't recall the "open and undisguised abuse of no PvP" applying to them, just that forcing all drow to be jerks isn't necessarily a solution since there would still be no consequences for it. So for the moment, that is your Answer to Drow.
You don't have to be "evil", "rude", or "offensive" to be a Drow. It is a mind set. Drow believe they are better than the rest. Drow come from evil gods, even here on layonara. My suggestions are not to "force" drow to be "jerks". It is to have people who play a Drow, keep the mind set of Drow, or at least have to start off with the mindset at character creation. Just like the alignment for evil is what you say "forced" to be RPed by the DMs, so should the race of a Drow. Right now, on Layonara, I only know of one active Drow (outside of myself) who RPs (IMO) a Drow. Most Drow RP just as you said, an Elf with a sun burn. That doesn't make them "bad RPers", which I peronsally never said anyone was or even mentioned. I enjoy RPing with most of these people, I just dislike their concept of a drow. If you look at the list of Drow on line sometime, there are in fact clerics of deties that IMO, a Drow should never be. I also agree with you that too many players open their arms to Drow, when they should be treating them like the rumored murdering evil creatures they are. And to say again, i NEVER said anyone "RPs Bad". That was the original poster.
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Acacea - 9/1/2006 1:46 PM
This was not meant to be a direct reply to the post above this one,
As quoted, out the door but that pretty much says it all. No I don't think they should all be goody goodies, yes I think they should be more drow-y, I was simply stating that it is not just the "mindset" that is the problem, as if they act with that mindset and there are no consequences whatsoever, the problem still exists.
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Drizzlin - 9/1/2006 4:03 PM
Drow on the surface should/are not born there, they come from the underdark where they should only know of and follow underdark gods.
Just a little confused, here. Why would Drow know nothing about the surface? Humans and Elves and Halflings have heard of Baraeon Ca'Duz, so why shouldn't Drow have heard of Toran? If you're going to fight the surface folk, you need to know what resources the surface folk have, right? Surely that includes information on their holy artillery.
EDIT: Besides that, there is a well-established Drow goddess with temples on the surface. Her name is Az'atta. There are probably more than a few Drow followers who staff her temples, and I would imagine they have families like everyone else, so there could be Drow born on the surface.
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Acacae,
Sorry =P I was running out the door when I read and replied to your post. I misread it.
Gulnyr - 9/1/2006 2:50 PM
Drizzlin - 9/1/2006 4:03 PM
Drow on the surface should/are not born there, they come from the underdark where they should only know of and follow underdark gods.
Just a little confused, here. Why would Drow know nothing about the surface? Humans and Elves and Halflings have heard of Baraeon Ca'Duz, so why shouldn't Drow have heard of Toran? If you're going to fight the surface folk, you need to know what resources the surface folk have, right? Surely that includes information on their holy artillery.
EDIT: Besides that, there is a well-established Drow goddess with temples on the surface. Her name is Az'atta. There are probably more than a few Drow followers who staff her temples, and I would imagine they have families like everyone else, so there could be Drow born on the surface.
Drow know about the surface, but they know what they are taught before they raid the surface. Drow are taught all races are inferior and their enemies. From birth, in Drow society, they are trained to kill. No other race, as a whole is so deceitful, war minded, and evil. Most other races, even though they are evil, don’t slaughter their own just to do so. The Drow that are different or weak are slaughtered quickly, most at birth. Sure Drow know of Toran, but they only know that his followers need to be slaughtered and are weak. Drow are unlike every race out there. I suggest reading up on Drow.
http://nwn.layonara.com/Dark%20Elf
Keep in mind this is the normal mindset of a Drow. This is the way most Drow should be with a few exceptions. Like you said, "humans, elves, and Halflings have heard of Baraeon Ca'Duz", not they know everything about him. This is a quote from LORE and in the link above... "The surface world is hardly aware of the nature of Dark Elven society". So sure some may know, but not everyone.
Unlike the surface world, Drow do not teach the ways of Toran in their cities. Drow are not able to go down to the local temple of Toran in their underdark cities and listen to his clergy preach. This is why Drow only know Drow gods. Unlike the surface, a Drow can only learn what the clergy of their evil Gods tell them. What they would be taught is a twisted view point on the other faiths and how evil those faiths.
As far as Az'atta, she is a Drow god and should be one of the small few IMO that Drow should be allowed to worship. IMO Drow who do worship Az'atta are the ones that should be on the surface and following her "good" ways. These Drow would have been the ones who ran away from the underdark to seek a place of acceptance.
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Drizzlin - 9/1/2006 8:07 PM
As far as Az'atta, she is a Drow god and should be one of the small few IMO that Drow should be allowed to worship. IMO Drow who do worship Az'atta are the ones that should be on the surface and following her "good" ways. These Drow would have been the ones who ran away from the underdark to seek a place of acceptance.
This doesn't address the idea that Drow who escaped the to the surface may have families of their own. A Drow that turned away from the evil ways may well seek redemption through service to Az'atta, that being Az'atta's thing. But what of their children, who have no reason to be seeking redemption? Why could those children not grow up to follow their own paths, perhaps in the service of gods who are allied with, or even friendly toward, Az'atta?
Yes, I suppose most people write up their Drow as coming straight from the Underdark. I suppose I could argue that a PC is not like a 'normal' person of his race; he's special somehow and does not necessarily share the 'normal mindset' of his race. Should Dwarves be resricted to Vorax, Dorand, and maybe Sulterio, since Dwarven communities are more or less isolated, and Dwarves are generally conservative and very fond of tradition?
Let me make sure my position is clear. I'm not a fan of Drow as a playable race. I like them as villains only. Ar7 made a recent post about the nature of confronting the generally unwelcome races in town (Drow, Orcs, Goblins...) and the futility of even trying. Acacea has pointed out that Drow don't really have it bad, since they can still visit the shops and the craft halls and do everything the standard races can do. I think the open arms toward Drow are the natural end result of the facts pointed out by Ar7 and Acacea, and I think it's unfortuante. But this isn't my world; I just play here. And here on Layonara, Drow are in. Being in, there is no reason the imagination behind those characters should be restricted in any way. If someone submits a character who is a Drow Paladin of Toran, and it passes the rules laid out for special subrace and Paladin submissions, then that character should be approved.
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Hey I agree with all your points, but my point is they should be limited and I suggested a way to limit them. What you say about Drow living on the surface being good and following Az'atta is fine, but it should be rare and not the norm.
The problem right now is Drow, as they are written do not exist for the most part. Instead almost all Drow are are exactly what was said earlier, Elves with a sun burn. You and I both agree that Drow can be good and should be allowed, but they should be RARE. The problem is they are not.
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Well youve touched on a subject that I've had a gripe with for a long time. In this case Acacea summed it up pretty well.
I think the problem is the amount of good drow and the way people accept them with "open arms" even on first meeting. But this doesnt just highlight drow but other races such as goblins, orcs, half giants..etc...even other alignments.
I remember once along time ago when my old character spotted an Orc in Hlint. He was a brand new char to layo and walked around relatively unhindered and even was greeted formally. I then walked up to him and started questioning him and even harrased him a little. When the conversation was over he sent me a tell saying something like "thank god somebody had a go at me. Thanks for the abuse". His sole purpose to RP the orc was to see how they functioned in a town and he wasn't receiving the outcome he desired. Lets just say he was most disappointed.
My own personal feeling is that all drow should begin either CN or TN and follow the aligned gods or none at all. To become good should be a slow process of CDQ's. On the most rare occasions, and only if the bio was written beautifully should one be allowed who is LG or any other similar alignments. We all love Drizzt and I think many of us would love to make a similar char. But we must remember Drizzt is one in a million.
anyway thats my personal opinion.
Cheers,
Polak76
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I couldn't have said it better Polak76, and I love it when people treat my PC like a drow. It adds the fun I wanted when I made the PC. I also completely agree with the restriction on alignment for the drow that you suggested.
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I have to say that of all the Drow on Layo, Daralith Del'Mar is the most Drow-like of them (that I've ever seen, anyhow).
All of my other point have been stated, mostly by Acacea; I mainly just want to help support raising the requirements for Drow in particular to the same as the requirements for a CN character - Drow of ANY alignment should be as difficult or more to roleplay as the True Chaotic alignment.
I would never, myself, say someone is a "bad" RPer. A "poor" RPer, perhaps... Different connotations and all that. The thing is that even the players I was -disgusted- with when they first joined up have improved very noticably, and, after I thought about it, at a faster rate than I did, back when I started RPing at RPGChat. All it really takes to be a "good" or "skilled" Roleplayer is experience, maturity, and decent writing abilities.
All of which come with time.
Oh, and to head back from my tangent... I'm glad to see all of the subraces restricted, including half-elves and half-orcs. I personally love half-orcs, and wish we had more of them, but understand that in this campaign, they're just rare.
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 9/2/2006 6:32 PM
I have to say that of all the Drow on Layo, Daralith Del'Mar is the most Drow-like of them (that I've ever seen, anyhow).
Well you and Caldiir should have to meet sometime. :)
Polak and Drizzlin are now both my heroes. They have said some things that really make sense, and they could work. I agree with you both in how I want my character to be treated. When I'm being my true Drow self, I like it when people get in heated arguments with me. Mostly because I can always come off with the last word, and it makes the game more interesting. Furthermore, if you take a look at the writings in popular D&D books, you will see that even Drizzt, who has been on the surface for years and saved countless lives still had to tread cautiously in towns where he was not known.
Also, I like the idea of Drow PC's being required to RP their good alignment through months of in game time. The reason I am in support of this is because in those same popular writings, there are a handful of Drow who are good aligned. That is only a few of an entire race, and those who are good aligned still worship a Drow god. This means that a lot of what Drizzlin is saying is true, Drow are inherently born with malcontent in their hearts, and are only taught the teachings of Drow deities.
But that is FR, Layonara is completely different! I agree, but the similarities far outweigh the differences. One of the main differences I see in Layonara and FR as far as Drow are concerned is that the Drow society is not so female ruled. The sexes are more equal, and the deities are different. The overall psyche of the Drow in both campaigns remain the same.
If it were me, I would also limit the alignments available at character creation. The alignments that I would allow would only be TN and CN. Never would good be approved at CC. This would help limit the amount of good Drow on the server, and make the setting mroe realistic.
Gulnyr - 9/1/2006 8:17 PM
And here on Layonara, Drow are in. Being in, there is no reason the imagination behind those characters should be restricted in any way. If someone submits a character who is a Drow Paladin of Toran, and it passes the rules laid out for special subrace and Paladin submissions, then that character should be approved.
I could not disagree more. Now, don't get me wrong I am a fan of creativity since it makes the world as a whole more interesting. However, there are limitations on a lot of the other subraces. For example, Brownies are required to be Good or Neutral and never Chaotic; Half-giants are required to be Non-lawful. Should they be changed because they limit creativity?
I submit no. The reason they are limited is because there are certain traits and ideologies of those races that make these restrictions necesarry. The same should hold true for Drow, because as already stated the only thing that they know is what the priests and priestesses of their Evil Aligned deities teach them. Not only that, but the Chaotic nature of Drow makes it impossible for one to be good straight out of the Underdark.
I further agree that the followers of Az'atta could concievably reproduce and have families on the surface. However, as Drizzlin said, these Drow should not be the norm. And these same Drow would be severely hated by any other Drow who follows one of the evil deities, especially Baraeon Ca'duz.
Another point I wanted to address which Acacea brought up, is that of the treatment that Drow recieve while in Hlint and the surrounding towns. It would be interesting to see what would happen if one day a Drow was unable to buy and sell anything within Hlint. I have seen merchants refuse service to elves on a different server, why not on Layonara? I am not the one to answer that, because I am not the Creator only a player. However, what CAN be changed is the behavior of other PC's. I have been able to waltz through Hlint on many occasions, without a single person confronting me. Most of the time if I am confronted, it is by a person whom Caldiir has already made mad in the past, or it is a Dwarf properly roleplaying a Dwarf.
I keep going back to the fact that Hlint has been invaded MANY times by Drow, and yet noone in the town seems to care. Out of the two years I have played as Caldiir, only once has he been forced out of town. It should be everytime he steps into the city walls.
*Pants as though he is out of breath*
Sorry it is so long folks, but I had to put my word in on a subject that I am passionate about.
Deacon
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Drizzlin - 9/1/2006 4:03 PM
... a Drow should never follow in the first place, especially Drow following elven Gods. Now I know the next argument will be, "well I wrote this up, and my Drow did this to become good and was accepted by Toran...".
Gulnyr - 9/1/2006 9:17 PM
Why could those children not grow up to follow their own paths, perhaps in the service of gods who are allied with, or even friendly toward, Az'atta?
The second is a direct response to the first. It is a reasonable concept that allows a Drow to be non-evil and follow a non-Drow god, thus countering the "never allowed to" argument.
Gulnyr - 9/1/2006 8:17 PM
And here on Layonara, Drow are in. Being in, there is no reason the imagination behind those characters should be restricted in any way. If someone submits a character who is a Drow Paladin of Toran, and it passes the rules laid out for special subrace and Paladin submissions, then that character should be approved.
This is just me getting all libertarian. Maybe there should be rules that limit Drow alignment *shrug*, but as long as there aren't, I'm going to argue that imagination should not be limited. The Drow Paladin of Toran, Synal'dur, is a well played Drow. This is a character who is always covered head to toe in armor. I'll admit I haven't seen him lately, but not once have I ever seen him without a helmet and full armor, completely covered. You can't just look at him and know he's a Drow. Jennara thinks he's just some regular ol' Elf. He doesn't walk about town openly, expecting to be embraced by hippie crowds and ignored by commoners and guards. He hides who he is on the outside and lets who he is on the inside show through the armor. Can anyone give me any reason why that character should not exist, or why a similar character shouldn't be allowed?
Deacon - 9/3/2006 2:50 AM
However, what CAN be changed is the behavior of other PC's. I have been able to waltz through Hlint on many occasions, without a single person confronting me. Most of the time if I am confronted, it is by a person whom Caldiir has already made mad in the past, or it is a Dwarf properly roleplaying a Dwarf.
I keep going back to the fact that Hlint has been invaded MANY times by Drow, and yet noone in the town seems to care. Out of the two years I have played as Caldiir, only once has he been forced out of town. It should be everytime he steps into the city walls.
Go here (http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29584&posts=36&start=1), scroll down to Ar7's post, and read his first point. That's what it turns into. It is more the fault of the Drow players than the other characters' players. The Drow openly display themselves in town, metagaming the knowledge that the NPCs are not going to do anything, and metagaming the knowledge that no other character can really do anything to them because we have no PvP. Garent won't attack, Vale will trust them with letters, the vendors will sell them anything, and they can scoff in the face of a huge mob and stand fast in town, making silly faces until the mob decides that the metagaming Drow isn't fun any more. Since there is no way for a player to know how a given Drow will react, and far too many fall back on the metagaming, it's just not worth the effort to confront them, or the Goblins or Orcs or Half Giants or anyone else. Yes, it would be wonderful if the players of Drow would start having their characters act like Drow "should" on the surface, and it would be great if other characters would react appropriately, but I don't see that happening any time soon.
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Gulnyr - 9/3/2006 12:33 PM
Can anyone give me any reason why that character should not exist, or why a similar character shouldn't be allowed?
No I cannot give you any reason why the character should not exist. However, I think that the character (if he is indeed a Drow straight from the Underdark) should have to start out as Neutral and roleplay his acceptance into the Toranite Order. That would require an expansion from the 2 available alignments I originally stated to include LN. I would see no problem with this because there are LE Drow in the Underdark.
What about those born on the surface? If a Drow is born on the surface from a couple followers of Az'atta, it seems logical to me that these Drow would grow up worhipping Az'atta and nothing else since they woul grow up around their parents and not priests of Toran, who I might add, would apsolutely despise Drow since they embody chaos, evil, treachery, and all things nasty...I.E. everything Toran does not represent.
I'm not saying that a Drow should not be allowed to play a Paladin of Toran. I'm saying that a Drow Paladin of Toran, or any Drow wanting to be Good aligned should undergo months of roleplaying in order to indicate to the GM team, the players around them, and the other 'True Drow' that they are indeed a different breed.
On the other point, I agree with Ar7 about the metagaming and uselessness of trying to RP hatred towards the monster races. It is just too hard to crack down on this, and with the limitations on PvP it is indeed next to impossible to force the character in game to do anything. The only thing that can be done is for the player to actually RP the burden of merchants refusing service, of the NPC's on the lookout for Drow and so forth. However, as has been said that task is far too large to handle at the moment.
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Even I am guilty of this metagaming without even being totally aware of it. This thread has doen some good to bring some ideas and such to my eyes that I had not noticed before. I for one will be roleplaying Caldiir a bit different. Hopefully others take notice and begin treating him accordingly.
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Deacon - 9/3/2006 12:48 PM
What about those born on the surface? If a Drow is born on the surface from a couple followers of Az'atta, it seems logical to me that these Drow would grow up worhipping Az'atta and nothing else since they woul grow up around their parents and not priests of Toran, who I might add, would apsolutely despise Drow since they embody chaos, evil, treachery, and all things nasty...I.E. everything Toran does not represent.
I'm a different religion than my parents, I imagine my children will fall in wherever they feel comfortable too.
It would seem logical to me that the parents might be devout followers of Az'atta, but the children would have a broader perspective, and the third generation would be even broader.
If it were up to me Drow would be monsters, period. It bothers me far more that I'm not allowed to pummel drow PC's into puddles of goo than it does that 90% of the Drow I see in game have a prince charming complex... or maybe it's Rodney King (Can't we all just get along). Either way. Since there is no down side to playing 'The most evil and hated race' I just tend to ignore them. Perhaps thats poor RP on my part, but if I can't follow through with my characters logical RP and leave a steaming pile of Drow guts in the middle of the street, I don't want to bother with the RP at all.
Berdin would not stop at trading insults with a known drow.
My suggestion would be:
Restrict Drow PC's like CN alignment. Make Drow start out as CN or TN.
Allow PvP on Drow PC's. Want them to fear coming to town? Let them get chased out by a mob that can actually do something about it. Conversely, a high level Drow PC could be a real bugger if he wanted. Play your evilness to the hilt.
Anyway.. not my sandbox, I just play with the toys that are here.
Vyris
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Now, my time has been limited so I havent read all the posts in here, so sorry if Im answering something completly wrong or taking up an old discussion, as a player of a good drow I just felt like defending myself.
I think good drows is just as normal as evil ones, because of their evil heritage. While some drows raisen in evil and cruelty turn out to be evil themselves, others ecpicially those who surffers without being able to fight back those in really weak positions, will turn out to be the completly oppostie of evil, followers and fighters of goodness, why? Because they have indeed seen what evil and cruelty leads too, and therefore takes distance from it. I think this is represented very well by the fact that one of the only (or only) gods that dont even have a favorite weapon because she simply dont like the killing of living beings is a drow. Drows truly holds the potential to turn very very evil, but because of that they also hold the potential to be fighters of peace and understanding. And well Daralith and Caldiir, how deep has you two ever RP'ed with a good drow? Since our kind usually dislikes you like elves we might look like them, but most good drows I know, are indeed marked by their past.
About the gods, why should Toran not accept a drow? Gods arent earthly beings filled with prejustice, they are wiser than that. Besides take a paladin in dnd. If he turnes into a blackguard he will be rewarded for every level of paladin by evil, because the evil gods enjoy watching a defender of good turn to them, therefore they welcome him with open arms. Wouldnt the opposite be just as big a victory for a good god?
About the general public of Hlint welcoming drows openly, I can only agree. If those of Carduz or Vierdi'ira where smart they would one by one send their agents to Hlint until they had an army there, the public would never know what hit them.
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Gulnyr - 9/3/2006 10:33 AM
"This is just me getting all libertarian. Maybe there should be rules that limit Drow alignment *shrug*, but as long as there aren't, I'm going to argue that imagination should not be limited. "
Which you are allowed to do, but it is just arguing to argue. What I, along with others here are saying is that limitations should be placed. I am personally not arguing to argue, I'm simply giving a possible solution to a problem and thus trying to help. There are current limitations on Layonara to balance the game and give it diversity already. Some of those “limitations” are great for the server and were created by suggestions from players. Right now there is little to no diversity among Drow in Layonara because the majority of Drow are playing “elves with a sunburn”. Suggestions on how to reach those limitations are what we need, not arguments for sport.
By your own words you are just arguing because you can. The players of Drow, such as me and the others who posted above are not speaking here to just argue. We actually feel there is a problem with the way the Drow race is portrayed, accepted, and currently being approved on Layonara. I for one don’t want to come here just to argue with people who want to argue. I am trying to add constructive suggestions for a possible solution to the current problems that the Drow community is facing on Layonara. Now I appreciate any suggestions or input you may have, but I don’t want to argue just because one can. I honestly feel that the issue brought here is valid and should be looked at.
Gulnyr - 9/3/2006 10:33 AM
"The Drow Paladin of Toran, Synal'dur, is a well played DrowYou can't just look at him and know he's a Drow. Jennara thinks he's just some regular ol' Elf. He doesn't walk about town openly, expecting to be embraced by hippie crowds and ignored by commoners and guards. He hides that he is on the outside and lets that he is on the inside show through the armor. Can anyone give me any reason why that character should not exist, or why a similar character shouldn't be allowed?"
I have to disagree with this, especially the hiding part. Paladins are among the most proud and visible that there are. Hiding one’s true self is not what I think of when I think of a Lawful Paladin of any God. I am not saying an exception can’t be made, but it just doesn’t seem like a Lawful Paladin who would be hiding at all. I am not attacking the player you mentioned, I have never actually seen them in game.
The second point is about detecting a Drow or Elf. While I agree that the average human may not be able to distinguish a Drow from an Elf, you can bet an Elf and a Drow know one from the other, even if covered in armor. Drow and Elf move different than humans and they are extremely agile. The agility and dexterity of a Drow is one of the major characteristics of how they can sign in the underdark. What Deacon said about Layonara having a lot of similarities with FR is true. You also have to keep in mind that Dark Elf (Drow) came from RA Salvatore and Forgotten Realms. One of the reasons Drizzt said he could not teach the Drow Sign language to Catti-brie was due to her lacking the agility and dexterity of a Drow.
Drow and Elf are not the same size. Drow are smaller than Elf, especially the males. While Layonara’s Lore section only briefly touches on the differences, they are still huge. The eye color and black skin are almost impossible to hide anyway, even through the visor of a helm. I am not saying through years of disguise and hard work that an elf or Drow could not try to pass as one or the other through completely trying to cover their bodies and face, but why would they? Drow and Elf hate each other and neither would want to be like the other. I am sure you can give me a reason why one would want to, but my counter is that it should be rare and not the norm, which it currently is on Layonara.
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Niles09 - 9/3/2006 1:17 PM
And well Daralith and Caldiir, how deep has you two ever RP'ed with a good drow?
Yes Daralith has, and they never forget him. Ask Cymeran or any other follower of Az'atta. Daralith told him, "Az'atta is nothing but a backstabing betrayer". Daralith spoke the truth, through his teachings and always does.
As far as other "good" Drow, Daralith always makes sure to leave a mark on them, along with any "non good" Drow he runs into. Daralith however keeps in mind that Drow are Drow. Good or bad he knows what they are capable of.
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Drizzlin - 9/3/2006 10:31 AM
Niles09 - 9/3/2006 1:17 PM
And well Daralith and Caldiir, how deep has you two ever RP'ed with a good drow?
Yes Daralith has, and they never forget him. Ask Cymeran or any other follower of Az'atta. Daralith told him, "Az'atta is nothing but a backstabing betrayer". Daralith spoke the truth, through his teachings and always does.
As far as other "good" Drow, Daralith always makes sure to leave a mark on them, along with any "non good" Drow he runs into. Daralith however keeps in mind that Drow are Drow. Good or bad he knows what they are capable of.
Yes Im quite aware of that, but there is a difference between RP'ing the differences of people and going deep into their background.
EDIT: My fault in my orignal post, deep RP was a bad choice of words. What I meant is, Caldiir and Daralith are obviosly evil, at least thats how Zan have met them, and therefore she as a good drow, is very hostile (maybe even arrogant) and therefore they will never know her inner problems because of her heritage.
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The Drow openly display themselves in town, metagaming the knowledge that the NPCs are not going to do anything, and metagaming the knowledge that no other character can really do anything to them because we have no PvP. Garent won't attack, Vale will trust them with letters, the vendors will sell them anything, and they can scoff in the face of a huge mob and stand fast in town, making silly faces until the mob decides that the metagaming Drow isn't fun any more. Since there is no way for a player to know how a given Drow will react, and far too many fall back on the metagaming, it's just not worth the effort to confront them, or the Goblins or Orcs or Half Giants or anyone else. Yes, it would be wonderful if the players of Drow would start having their characters act like Drow "should" on the surface, and it would be great if other characters would react appropriately, but I don't see that happening any time soon
I agree with this too, to a certain extent anyway...I think it might be less of a problem with Hlint which is a self confessed 'adventurers town' drawing all sorts of races seeking adventure. So its always had its share of monster races albeit a small share. Obviously these races will draw antagonism and hostility towards themselves but less so than in other towns and cities in the world, or so it seems to me. I remember when I first made Bilvikki, one of the main reasons I chose the school of illusion for his specialist school of magic, was that I thought he'd use illusion extensively just to survive in a non goblin town. Of course most of the illusion spells in the PnP spellbook are just not available in NWN so it was just a token effort in the end. But if the game supported spells like 'disguse self' for instance, I don't think many other players would know that, he was in fact a goblin. Of course now he's been in Hlint for a very long time and not only that he's an acomplished wizard to boot so he's well known to the authorites. I still mourn the fact though that he can't use his spell school in the way I originally hoped. But he still does generate hostility and suspicion from other players, even now and thats all to the good.
What I'm really trying to say that there are limits to NWN which wouldn't be there in a PnP game and so some allowance has to made for that. However this doesn't mean that monster races should be ignored and treated as other races, rather people should treat them fully IC. I like the idea mentioned above though about the drow and alignments and I think that would make the drow a much more interesting race to play.
I would also like to point out though that it can be difficult to play a character who does have a deep prejudice to another race. I once had a Svirfneblin who literally hated drow and showed it every time he met one, years of persecution by them, death of his kin by them etc. He was a great character one I did like to play but I dropped him after it became apparent that he was causing too many problems for people, not IC within the game, but in RL and this was reflected in the forums.
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Drizzlin - 9/3/2006 4:19 PM
By your own words you are just arguing because you can.
Which words?
I never argue just to argue. I truly believe that since there are no restrictions on the application standards, no one has created an inappropriate Drow, nor can they create one. I also truly believe that changing the standards for approval to limit deity and alignment choice will not solve the problem. Players of Drow characters will still metagame. Drow will still be accepted or ignored, they will still scoff at the mob, they will still run errands for Postmaster Vale and Ronus, and they will still shop freely in the shops.
We actually feel there is a problem with the way the Drow race is portrayed, accepted, and currently being approved on Layonara.
Me, too, but the problem is not that there are Good Drow or Drow Paladins. The problem is that there are not the negatives that there should be for Drow.
I hate Drow as PCs. Hate 'em. I don't believe people can be trusted to play them "right", and I think all the effort to make systems that make Drow hated (like making Garent attack or the shops refuse to sell) could be better spent elsewhere. But if they are going to be allowed, and they are supposed to be the most hated race ever, there must be the negatives that make that true in place before they are allowed as PCs. That's not the case currently, and that's nobody's fault. It just happened that way. So now we have a little problem. The best way to fix it is to start over from scratch, which means waiting for the next version of Layonara. A more immediate solution is to remove all the Drow PCs, but that's really not fair to the players. Relying on the players to play Drow "properly" is not any solution at all, since it is inevitable that someone will fall to the temptations of metagaming and ruin the whole thing for everyone. It's human nature.
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steverimmer - 9/3/2006 4:48 PM
I think it might be less of a problem with Hlint which is a self confessed 'adventurers town' drawing all sorts of races seeking adventure. So its always had its share of monster races albeit a small share.
Yeah, Hlint's not a perfect example, but it is a convenient one because everyone is familiar with Hlint and it's a place that has been directly attacked by Drow rather recently.
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Drizzlin - 9/3/2006 2:19 PM
You also have to keep in mind that Dark Elf (Drow) came from RA Salvatore and Forgotten Realms.
You are wrong. Drizzt came from R.A. Salvatore, Drow were around long before forgotten realms.
At least as a monster race... where they should have stayed.
Vyris
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hehehe...Gulnyr dont get too cranky. Not all PC's RP drow badly (actually a select few I've met a rather great RPers). Maybe you'll meet my new Cleric of Vierdri'ira, but i rather doubt it. She doesnt really stop to talk with anyone and I'm never really online much these days which makes it even better for her. (mind you, if anyone see's her running around and immediately picks her to be a drow send me a tell first before you react in anyway towards her. This is so we can roll opposing checks. I've got her heavily cloaked and using bluff.)
Anyway in future for Layo 2 it would be ideal if we could have a separate place for races to begin, grow and develop without needing to interact with enemy races. Now that would probably take too much time, effort and resources so I guess we'll have to dream it. I used to play drow on an Aussie server down here called drow wars (world of edon). Typically you were a surfacer (kivvyl) or from the underdark being a drow or slave (rothe) to the drow. Basically they made two worlds, above and below and each side had the same resources, difficulty in mosnters, items and similar quests. Players RP'ed there character well as it was PvP should oposing sides meet. We even had battles among ourselves with leading houses against others and wars between the dark gods. All in all it was fantastic and one could even spend their whole existance and make epic levels in the underdark without seeing the sun once. If this could be possible it would solve alot of problems on Layo at the moment -
*Firstly drow would be attacked on sight should their identity be discovered (thus allowing PvP).
*Players would then only venture to the surface at their own risk, thus avoiding metagaming.
*If you wanted to RP a good Dark Elf you'd be in for a ride with serious RP and CDQ's (which is how it should be)
*Only serious RPers would take on the challenge of playing one.
In my opinion you cant have the best of both worlds. If you pick a typically evil race you should be mentally focused and prepared to play them that way. I remember I had a drow chick once and got into an argument with another drow chick from another party who shouted to her comrads something like.."look, she's a drow! She's a traitor!". Lets just say I almost fell off my chair at that little commotion.
Look, maybe it's just me but it doesnt gel right playing drow good, so dont get offended if you do. To me it's like some sort of juxtaposition. I think a little of my personal distatste came out when my old char Ramanon used to constantly fight with Syn, but it made for interesting RP.
Anyway I hope Layo 2 brings a new flavor to the whole topic.
Cheers,
Polak76
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Gonna weigh in here. I'll end up repeating things that people have said and that's fine with me as long as it's alright with everyone else.
1. I like playing drow. I like playing with drow. I find them to be a very exciting subrace and I find it much easier to be creative with them than other subraces. It's just what fits me better (or fit me better since I don't really know any more).
2. Drow do not have a "bad reputation". (I've said it in the past, but I think now, that I was wrong.) They have a bad history. It's not speculation or gossip; rumor or fear of the unknown. They've done terrible things (hehe, I speak as if they're real). Their actions have touched almost every corner of the world. What have we established then? You should have a good RP reason for trusting a drow off the bat (as many players have done in my Layo career). Either woefully ignorant, blissfully naieve, flat out stupid or the eternal optomist who thinks there is good in everyone.
3. Drow probably shouldn't start off in Hlint, that much is clear and has been started a thousand times. It don't make sense but is it that important right now that we must restate it? Maybe we could have a GM run over this topic and just put "Noted" by all of the ideas that the GMs see and are considering.
4. Yes yes yes they are (along with Aasimar) the most powerful subrace in Layonara.
5. What do I think needs to be done? Exactly what they're doing now and exactly what I think they'll do come NwN2. Wait for the world to become populated with Humans, Elves, Halflings, Dwarves and Gnomes (we need more Gnomes... never enough Gnomes...) before opening up certain subraces. Set prerequisites as to who can even apply for drow-ship and then even more limits on what must be in the Bio in order for it to be approved.
Gonna sum up quickly with blunt statements.
1. Our GMs ain't stupid. They can see what's happening, they hear the complaints and just because you can't hear them talking or see them working don't mean they ain't.
2. Our players have varying levels of RP experiance, maturity and creativity. Maturity must be felt out by the GMs and players; it can be brought up through discipline and by the example of other players. Creativity (or lack thereof) must be made up for and understood. Help a brotha out, so to speak, and don't knock him down cause he don't got the most flowry n' wordy story. RP experiance comes with time; that's why they have the 10 month rule for CN characters. (Think it's 10.)
3. I'm done. I'm hungry. And tired. Happy Labor Day. Go eat food.
ZV-
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A lot of folks have been mentioning different start points, and I'm not sure if anyone has addressed the problems with this, but here's a vantage on that one at least.
A primary goal of a server at it's beginning is to create an area of maximum gravity to pull players together to bring about greater ease of roleplay situations or finding a group. This achieves a few goals, the first and foremost building a sustainable playerbase from grass root beginnings. Which is not easy. The 'Hlint' type meeting point, the crossroads of the server, is a lot more then just a spawn point for players. It's what the server initially revolved around to get going and pick up speed.
A lot of servers out there have begun under grandiose pretense of a massive world with kingdoms, empires, civilizations... all leading to multiple spawn points that ultimately only serve to spread out the playerbase. I mean, it's great in theory and when you write it out in a book... but it doesn't work. Now Layonara has a pretty awesome playerbase. You don't see it like Layo has except on maybe two other RP servers out there (of which Layo is undisputed emperor of all things fun). So yeah, it's doable with this many people to have multiple spawn points, but the way the general layout of Layo is set up, I just don't think it's conducive to creating a natural crossroads for people to link up using different spawn points. There *has* to be a Hlint. Maybe in the future this Hlint can be a place that's designed to gather all PC's from different spawn points as they have to travel through it or some other natural draw. Some place that has a nuetral atmosphere and an extremely desirable gather point that just makes players want to pass through. But I'd still say that the different spawn point needs to be no more then a couple maps of travel off this center of gravity.
We end up taking for granted the playerbase here. The groups of 15+ on that single map square all chatting away. Almost so much as to wish there were fewer people around. But think about that new player and how you're going to keep him on your server. The single greatest thing is going to be maximum exposure to the existing playerbase so that the new player can find friends and immediately build relationships and a connection to the server. We forget that quickly once we're engrained in the playerbase and know our friends.
If you ask me, and I know you're all holding your breath here, we should all always start at the intended center of gravity for the server. For NWN 2 I say make a city the start point and make that city neutral racially and alignment-wise so that all things have a place there. And if a certain race doesn't belong there, get rid of it for PCs. A very rich city with multiple taverns and buildings circling one obvious and wonderfully built center stage that everyone's going to pass through and gather in. Let the drow go to their tavern or whatever hole they find gathering in comfortable. But make that gathering point the center of all travel on the world to keep the spirit of a roleplay server and keep drawing in new talent instead of spreading it out.
Everyone needs a Hlint to go home to at night. And without it new players will go elsewhere.
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Chongo for the win... I've been at a few other servers with multiple start points. They're empty. It's not that they don't have many players on the server. It's just that you can't find anyone, so you end up building a DD with an AC of 45 to go solo things with. Not very fun, and zero roleplaying.
I like the idea of Hlint; it works. Maybe starting characters at different locations based on race or class... Druids and rangers at the campfire, arcanists outside of Moraken's, bards in the Surge... That sort of thing.
ZV, it's six months and a character of 10th level or higher.
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that would be better than the other option........
(place a catapult at the spawn point, it activates on new characters, catapults them a distance dependant on the rolls of the crazy gnome controlling it)
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Thanks for the info Stephen. Been gone so long I forgot. :)
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ZeroVega - 9/4/2006 1:09 PM
4. Yes yes yes they are (along with Aasimar) the most powerful subrace in Layonara.
Not to nit pick =P, but I want to make clear there are more powerful races than drow which we can play here. The ECL is suppose to show the strength of PCs. Drow are only +2 ECL, there are ECL +3 out there. IMO, the strongest PR is a Snirfneblin by far. All though halfgiants lack the SR, they are amazingly powerful given the low magic of Layonara (they are also +3).
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Yeah, but you throw in the natural resistance to spells along with some good spell resist items and a Drow can quickly become on par with an ECL +3 or higher.
Well said Chongo! Good post. I do agree that each server should have a central hub that draws the player base too, and i further agree that this hub should be easily accessible to everyone. However, I also see the need for Drow starting in a separate location. I REALLY like Ramanon's idea of having the Drow start in the Underdark. The only problem is, finding that playerbase to RP with. I played on a server called Lands of Lore, and they had multiple spawn points. I ultimately left because there was no way for the players of each race to meet up and find each other.
I think Layonara would be able to pull something like this off though, because the GM team genuinely cares about what goes on here, and the playerbase is stinking massive. I think that it would be possible for Drow to have a starting point in the Underdark, with access to the surface and easy access to the central hub town. One of my only complaints with Layonara, is the fact that even though I am a Drow who hails from the Underdark, and misses his home dearly, I have only seen the Underdark one time, and then it was on a GM quest and we met a Black Dragon. I want to be able to travel there on my own and do quests there, and see the obsidian walls of Olath Chath. I want to gaze in the eyes of the statues of Baraeon Ca'duz. I want to go into the spider shaped temples of the Left Hand of Black, and make sacrifices in his name.
Get the picture? I absolutely LOVE Drow, and I want the same things that a lot of the players of Good Aligned characters want but for some reason am unable to attain.
What would I do? I would have a separate underground world that would allow players who choose to play the monster races could live and play at without even venturing to the surface if they did not want to. However, since there are multiple exits from the Underdark, I would have one or two of these exits close enough to the central hub that players could still reach it. It would be interesting to see this happen, because it would make people want to play Drow the RIGHT way more often...and would force those who wanted to "defect" to have to go through some heavy RP in order to get that way. It would also open up the lines for the surface dwellers to refuse service to those evil ones. But, that's where this hub comes into play, since the town is neutral to any and all.
This all sounds well and good, but I have no idea how much work this would put on a team which already has a plate full of things. But it would be nice....
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Sorry if I was rambling, I'm kinda tired and can't really discern what I'm typing...
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Yeah, it's neat, the idea of starting them in the UD, but I still just don't see it doing much else other then to alienate new drow players. Bear in mind that in all this said... the server I ran had multiple spawn points and it was an utter disaster building playerbase because things were simply too big and too spread out. So I'm obviously jaded, bear with me ;). That said, the problems I see in this: - Persistant PC Location defeats the entire issue. You'll still have drow and other 'I don't belong' races gravitating to the server hub. - The only time they'll see this place is upon initial creation, where they'll be alienated and confused because typically secondary spawn points are not as obviously built as the server primary. - It's a subrace, and an ECL one at that, so it will be regulated to the point that there will be no chance of a sustainable population in that spawn. Leading to confused new drow, lack of RP opportunities, and generally something that can't sustain itself. That population will never exist. - Once you link UD areas to the surface you either get a UD 'pod' of an area or two, or you get a fast-track link to UD areas that are supposed to be quite difficult to get to for balancing purposes. And if you make it a one way link to the central hub, then you have a spawn point that still means nothing other then a sidestep into their identity for a breif moment to be followed by daylight and clean Hlint benches. That said, I think the goal here is twofold. 1) Create a realistic initial identity for this monster race. 2) Alleviate the issue of not belonging in Hlint and attempting to lump them into their own melting pot. So, this would be my proposal, for future or current projects. Figure out if you're going to maintain monster races that aren't generally cohesive with society, if so, do the following. Stick with a central hub that all players start in directly. Let's just consider this a city, like Pranzis. All players start in the Pranzis-like city. Now, create an underground. Orcs, Half Giants, Ogrekin, Goblins, Tieflings, Duergar, Drow... all the rejects that don't belong on city streets smacking high fives with the humans - they all start here. And it is in the same city, right underneath the spawn point for all the normal PCs. Create an atmosphere suitable to this scenario and a city background to support it. Maintain PvP rules as they are, but create this 'barrier' to promote cultural roleplay in a peaceful 'you don't belong in that dark alley, that's the monster tavern' sort of way. Make the underground very fitting of the idea of having monsters living in it. I'm thinking the atmosphere or feel you get in the CODI Sigil Interior tiles (http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=55636). You know, it's the bad part of diagon alley of Harry Potter. Harmless, but not your sort of people. This maintains all the players in a central hub. More importantly, it pools the populations so that the 'pretty' and the 'ugly' races all have a sustainable environment to roleplay in. Things to watch out with something like this: Gang behavior. "Let's go rile up the humans'. But there's really no other middleground. You either choose to stay anti-PvP in all aspects and force a precedent of ignoring the cultural strife altogther, or you create that atmosphere, maintain anti-PvP, and hope that everything people are preaching here stands true, and that they can roleplay cutural strife in a mature, interesting, and enjoyable way.
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Deacon - 9/6/2006 7:20 AM
Yeah, but you throw in the natural resistance to spells along with some good spell resist items and a Drow can quickly become on par with an ECL +3 or higher.
Spell resistance doesn't stack... It's always the "highest one" that counts.
Which mean that a mid-level drow cleric (okay... druid could probably be possible too, but... eerrh... drow druid? *shudders*) wouldn't benefit from the racial SR, except as a backup SR... :)
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I must admit Ive always thought the reason we had to make a background was because our chars should have that and not just to describe who their mummy and dad was... Zan's background explains how she escaped the underdark and why she is good, look around and you might discover the same for the other drows chars around.
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Weeblie - 9/6/2006 12:10 AM
Deacon - 9/6/2006 7:20 AM
Yeah, but you throw in the natural resistance to spells along with some good spell resist items and a Drow can quickly become on par with an ECL +3 or higher.
Spell resistance doesn't stack... It's always the "highest one" that counts.
Which mean that a mid-level drow cleric (okay... druid could probably be possible too, but... eerrh... drow druid? *shudders*) wouldn't benefit from the racial SR, except as a backup SR... :)
Not to mention Svirfneblin have spell resistance as well. This is what they get.
As standard gnome except as follows:
+2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Strength, -4 Charisma (ESA +2 DEX, -2 CON, +2 WIS, -4 CHA)
Spell Resistance of 10 + 1/level
Darkvision
+2 to Search and Hide checks
+2 Universal Saves
+2 Dodge Modifier to AC
Blur as a spell like ability
Blindness as a spell like ability
Light Sensitivity
ECL: 3
Not only do they ahve spell resitance, they have a universal +2 save to all splls, +2 AC. They are more powerful that Drow, and thus an ECL 3.
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Would someone volunteer to right up a set of guidelines for drow PCs as well as non-drow PCs that come into contact with drow?
I think that if we can all come up with, and agree to, some RP framework to play off of we'll end up with some fun situations.
My biggest gripe with drow is just the inconsistency their presence brings to the environment. If they're to be treated friendly, that's fine but let's all commit to RPing that. If they're to be treated with outright suspicion and hostility at first meeting and perhaps need to be vouched for by a trusted ally, fine. It's really not the drow players that are providing the inconsistency, it's the rest of us boneheads. :-)
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This is a place to start: http://nwn.layonara.com/Dark%20Elf
That's the 99.9999% description for the Drow subrace. The remaining 0.0001% of the drow population are exceptions to the general description given. Those that fall into this very minor subset are either killed in the Underdark or somehow escape that life...though never truly escape the darkness in their blood. A Drizzt-like Drow is among the rarest of the rare.
Pretty much all of the surface and underdark races have had a dubious history with the Drow in general. Elves especially, with their long lives and long memories, should not ever, ever, ever trust a drow on first sight...if at all. Of course, there are exceptions to this as well, but in general, there is no reason for any degree of trust between Drow and elves at all, and the same holds true for Drow and pretty much everyone.
Drow shouldn't even really trust each other.
When we had Dragon Called PCs, there was an assumption that the dragon called them for a reason, and thus people treated them differently. The "elves with really bad sunburns" trend was born. We no longer have that mechanism, so the presence of Drow appearing among surface towns and cities should be seen with suspicion, if not with outward hostility.
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Chongo - 9/6/2006 12:48 AM Figure out if you're going to maintain monster races that aren't generally cohesive with society, if so, do the following. Stick with a central hub that all players start in directly. Let's just consider this a city, like Pranzis. All players start in the Pranzis-like city. Now, create an underground. Orcs, Half Giants, Ogrekin, Goblins, Tieflings, Duergar, Drow... all the rejects that don't belong on city streets smacking high fives with the humans - they all start here. And it is in the same city, right underneath the spawn point for all the normal PCs. Create an atmosphere suitable to this scenario and a city background to support it. Maintain PvP rules as they are, but create this 'barrier' to promote cultural roleplay in a peaceful 'you don't belong in that dark alley, that's the monster tavern' sort of way. Make the underground very fitting of the idea of having monsters living in it. I'm thinking the atmosphere or feel you get in the CODI Sigil Interior tiles (http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=55636). You know, it's the bad part of diagon alley of Harry Potter. Harmless, but not your sort of people. This maintains all the players in a central hub. More importantly, it pools the populations so that the 'pretty' and the 'ugly' races all have a sustainable environment to roleplay in. Things to watch out with something like this: Gang behavior. "Let's go rile up the humans'. But there's really no other middleground. You either choose to stay anti-PvP in all aspects and force a precedent of ignoring the cultural strife altogther, or you create that atmosphere, maintain anti-PvP, and hope that everything people are preaching here stands true, and that they can roleplay cutural strife in a mature, interesting, and enjoyable way.
Wow. I REALLY like that idea. It's well thought out, and it keeps that central hub like was being stated. I think it would also work well if the NPC's in both areas gave beginner quests, but not to both the above ground and underground. Would also make sense to have merchants and such in the Underground, which would only sell to undergrounders and vice versa.
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I like it. The biggest problem I've seen is... well... first it's that I personally think there needs to be limits to the number of drow right off the bat (like there were in the beginning) and require a massive bio (like in the beginning... take a look at Ed's for Zaraun). People should put a lot of thought into drow. If they're good, why are they good. Are your reasons really important to the characters development. Are the events that led up to it really that important to you or are they just excuses to get that "good" alignment.
Not only that, but what about those select few (I hope there are only a few) dark-fleshied characters who are "good" (and I'm talkin alignment). The same problems are still going to exist for them that exist now. Either there will be too much trust or people won't know how to play the untrusting. The biggest biggest problem though, is that drow flat out SHOULD NOT be allowed into towns without someone leading them in. Period. If I'm a guard for Hlint. My family has been devastated over the past twenty years by drow attacks and I see a lone drow approaching. Yeah, I'm gonna plunk the guy right in the crotch and give him something to think about. Problem is, it won't happen. (And that's no one's fault, just won't.)
ZV the Drow Lovin' Smack Talkin Muffin Huggin Hoolagin-
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At least not now. I cross my fingers that the Team has some good things planned in the future, and I have faith that they are not going to let me down.
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Vyris' guide to drow encounters
Player meeting Drow is:
Human, wemic - reaction depends on the human's alignment, range from distrust to hatred.
Hal-elf - a happy middle between human and elf, which is still pretty unhappy.
Elf, dwarf - start with maniacal need to slaughter them, move on towards forming a war party as the situation warrants.
Halfling, Gnome, Brownie - Fear to hatred.
Other 'moster' races - Fear to nuetral.
Easy way to limit the number of any 'monster' race, be it Tieflings to Drow... let them be killed by players, and double the odds of getting a soul strand if they die in PvP. Might not be such an attraction to play a Drow if you are in constant fear of getting permed by that rabid dwarf cleric of Vorax. Lets see how many Tieflings make it through their first encounter with a paladin... Whatever. I am sliding off on a tangent now, but if you want to add a penalty thats real, and effective theres not much else that works that doesn't involve a bunch of custom coding.
I suggest that in all seriousness because I think the playerbase here could handle it. If restrictions were in place on those who were ALLOWED Drow, like those who are allowed CN alignments they would know what to expect and be able to handle the RP required. Plus I am sure we would have a rule such as no serial killing, which would dive right into the griefing zone, etc. but...
Bottom line is either we, as players all act like adults and treat each other with respect, or things get regulated by the GM team, and then aspects of RP are verboten! I personally would love to be able to have the option to outright attack Drow if it fits within your characters RP (A dwarven battle priest of Vorax in my case). And I am pretty sure that something like that could be handled between myself and the other drow player without any wounded feelers. Trading insults then walking away isn't my style, put up, shut up, or just walk by and keep your mouth shut.
Vyris
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I agree with Vyris there too. This isn't a huge problem that NEEDS GM intervention to fix it. (Though that would probably work, it would most likely turn out in an unsavory way for all of us.) It's something that the playerbase could pick and "fix" themselves. It's common sense really (which seems to have become uber rare in this world). I'm convinced that Layonara has enough of it to make things work though.
Be cool peoples...
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ZeroVega - 9/6/2006 7:05 PM
It's common sense really
(repeated for emphasis)
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Vyris - 9/6/2006 4:52 PM
Easy way to limit the number of any 'monster' race, be it Tieflings to Drow... let them be killed by players, and double the odds of getting a soul strand if they die in PvP. Might not be such an attraction to play a Drow if you are in constant fear of getting permed by that rabid dwarf cleric of Vorax.
As if the giants and ogres were not bad enough... Now I have a cleric of Vorax to worry about.
Luckily this idea is so ridiculously against the grain for what Layo is all about, that I will never have to worry about my character getting perma killed by a PC.
While I am not touching this argument with a ten foot pole. I will brake out the elven foot pole, and state the following.
The persistent idea in this thread that the drow have it easy. That they do not encounter enough animosity. That they are treated kindly from the get go, is greatly removed from how drow PC are really treated on Layo. Since my character Cymeran was summoned by the dragon. He has interacted with hundreds of character who were afraid of him when they met. He has been sneered at a myriad of times, along with other assorted *looks of hostility and or animosity* He has also been ridiculed, ignored, threatened, and even puked on.
Further more, it is my opinion, that the disadvantages to being a drow on Layo balances out the advantages quite nicely. The advantages have been laid out nicely already by the way. The social disadvantages on layo are so extreme that my character will not step foot into the Leonin arms and tavern, in fear of racial persecution. Oh, and then you meet the drow, that consider my character a traitor to their race.
Actually it gets a bit overwhelming, to experience so much hatred from characters that claim to be good.
Hatred is a tool that evil people use to corrupt good people into doing evil things, like murdering people.
I strongly suspect this is why there are so few drow PCs which stay active for a long time. I have seen many drow PCs get started and mysteriously disappear. I would say that maybe 10 to 20% last a RL month.
Now, while I don't take any of this personally, my character has been a never ending challenge for me to role play, as role playing a drow should be. I have gained countless hours of great joy, and satisfaction from these challenges.
I also strongly support the idea of making all special races, even brownies, subject to the same restrictions as playing a CN character.
AeonBlues
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Sorry, they can purchase things from merchants who supposedly loathe them, walk freely and openly in any town anywhere no matter how many times its been sacked, without ever fearing anything from the multiple guards that may be present. They can use the crafthouses, inns, benches, they can elope with elves. Any resource that is open to a human is open to a drow, plain and simple. That's not harsh. They can continue to prance openly under the noses of NPCs who would throw them out, and the best you can do is glare about it or make some grumbly noises. This is only a natural progression from various elements in place, as Gulnyr pointed out, but just because it was bound to happen, does not mean they "have it hard."
The only real harshness is the danger of hurt feelings OOC, and if one is a person who cannot quite separate Role-play from Real-life, then he or she should not play a reviled race.
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Acacea - 9/6/2006 11:01 PM
The only real harshness is the danger of hurt feelings OOC, and if one is a person who cannot quite separate Role-play from Real-life, then he or she [big]should not play a reviled race.[/big]
(repeated for emphasis)
Do I owe you royalties, Dorg?
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In direct response to Acacea's comments:
I am not on the GM team, and not a writer of world plot and story. My only real point is, that I enjoy playing a race that is challenging to RP. Would you want to ruin the gaming experience of people who play dark elves? If you never RP with Zanirth, then you are missing out on a top notch roll played character.
I would like to hear more input from world story writers as to how common folk perceive the very few drow who walk the streets of surface cities and towns.
Maybe I am too naive, but I just think that if put your society on the “good axis” then you should allow people a chance for redemption. A chance to prove themselves as a beneficial part of your society. I would think that since my character is both charismatic and persuasive, and hands merchants big sacks of gold in exchange for crafting oils and gems, ummm, that they would have built some kind of reasonable business relationship over the years. Maybe the guards would would know my character's reputation. Maybe even my character saved that guards life at one point in time. You would be amazed about how much appreciation people give you after saving their lives.
Of course the idea of hiring someone to do my shopping for me, has some interesting RP potential. The challenge of organizing sit down strikes, hunger strikes, and a few acts of sabotage would be interesting also. Luckily this is a fantasy world, and I can spend most of my time slaying undead, and then hiking across the desert with a half dozen shovels.
Acacea - 9/6/2006 8:01 PM
The only real harshness is the danger of hurt feelings OOC, and if one is a person who cannot quite separate Role-play from Real-life, then he or she should not play a reviled race.
Which is probably why 90% of our dark elves don't make it past their first RL month. I am guessing 90% by the way.
AeonBlues
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AeonBlues - 9/6/2006 8:06 PM
Vyris - 9/6/2006 4:52 PM
Easy way to limit the number of any 'monster' race, be it Tieflings to Drow... let them be killed by players, and double the odds of getting a soul strand if they die in PvP. Might not be such an attraction to play a Drow if you are in constant fear of getting permed by that rabid dwarf cleric of Vorax.
As if the giants and ogres were not bad enough... Now I have a cleric of Vorax to worry about.
Luckily this idea is so ridiculously against the grain for what Layo is all about, that I will never have to worry about my character getting perma killed by a PC.
Layonara isn't about anti-PvP, it's about anti-PK. PK'rs would sit and wait at the campfire outside Hlint for people to log on and gank them. Layonara is about the RP experience, which in my opinion is hampered by my inability to feed any drow I'm able to get my hands on through a meat grinder. That doesn't mean Berdin would sit and wait for Drow to walk by and attack them, but... If he happened to be out and about and encountered a Drow, there would be hellfire and brinstone a-plenty. This would apply to Orcs, Half-giants, and if I thought I could get away with it, priests of Az'atta and quite a few wizards as well, which is ALL entirely within Berdins RP.
I guess it rubs me wrong that as per my character bio Berdin spent the better part of 30-40 years fighting the Drow in the tunnels of his clans mines, and now, since he's on the surface he's restricted to sneering and threating, which, the recipient is likely to respond to by mocking me and hiding behind the FACT that I can't do a darned thing to them. Dwarves aren't the type to tell you what a lowly worm you are, if they are going to expend effort in your direction it's going to be with an axe. I understand why, because PvP always gets out of hand, and there is far more constructive things the GM team can do with their time than make sure that we aren't out just hunting other PC's down and being jerks.
While I am not touching this argument with a ten foot pole. I will brake out the elven foot pole, and state the following.
Doesn't matter how big the pole is, if your gonna chime in, just chime in.
The persistent idea in this thread that the drow have it easy. That they do not encounter enough animosity. That they are treated kindly from the get go, is greatly removed from how drow PC are really treated on Layo. Since my character Cymeran was summoned by the dragon. He has interacted with hundreds of character who were afraid of him when they met. He has been sneered at a myriad of times, along with other assorted *looks of hostility and or animosity* He has also been ridiculed, ignored, threatened, and even puked on.
Drow, Tieflings (which are MY favorite race by the way), orcs, half-orcs, half-giants... All of them have it pretty easy, considering they are all pretty nefarious stock.
Further more, it is my opinion, that the disadvantages to being a drow on Layo balances out the advantages quite nicely. The advantages have been laid out nicely already by the way. The social disadvantages on layo are so extreme that my character will not step foot into the Leonin arms and tavern, in fear of racial persecution. Oh, and then you meet the drow, that consider my character a traitor to their race.
Those players who strive to play a GOOD Drow ARE traitors to thier race. Lets take everyones favorite Drow.. Drizzt *gag* He aint gonna be welcome in the underdark until mephisto and Lloth are havin a snowball fight. A Drow PC is never going to make amends and go live back in the underdark, it's just not within the mechanics of the game. You could RP it and retire the character, but thats about it. As Acacea says, Drow can do anything, anywhere, that any other race can do. Thats not being penalized.
Actually it gets a bit overwhelming, to experience so much hatred from characters that claim to be good.
Imagine how overwhelming it would be if the people who sneer at you were instead really after your blood. Imagine if the townspeople who exist but aren't represented as NPC's due to server/game engine limitations had a chance at a lone Drow in their town. It might not be pretty, but to draw a RL parallel, WWII was 60 years ago, and guess what, Germans still aint real popular in places like Poland, Holland and France.
Hatred is a tool that evil people use to corrupt good people into doing evil things, like murdering people.
You can insert any adjective that describes an emotion or a school of thought in that previous sentence and find people that agree with you, it's an opinion. Hatred is a learned response brought about by repeated reinforcement of a negative image. The Drow on Layonara (and anywhere Drow exist in an RP setting) are bent on the destruction of the surface dwelling peoples. Repeated, persistant agression by a race of people WILL result in the hatred of that race by the recipients of thier aggression. Hatred is not evil, hatred is natural. It's not popular, or always desireable, but it is, and always will be. The nanosecond a 'people' lose thier capacity for hate they WILL be the victims of a less pacifist society.
I strongly suspect this is why there are so few drow PCs which stay active for a long time. I have seen many drow PCs get started and mysteriously disappear. I would say that maybe 10 to 20% last a RL month.
I strongly suspect that they realize that being a drow aint at all like tearing a page from an R.A. Salvatore book, ECL penalties suck tremendously at low levels, and if you don't have time to do three quests a week than that level 10 'wall' takes you a lot longer to get past. They see their freinds begin to pull away in levels and get frustrated, then give up.
Now, while I don't take any of this personally, my character has been a never ending challenge for me to role play, as role playing a drow should be. I have gained countless hours of great joy, and satisfaction from these challenges.
Glad you are having fun with it. I don't think I've ever RP'd with you, but then again, since I can't follow through on what I feel to be my logical RP is regarding drow I just tend to ignore them.
I also strongly support the idea of making all special races, even brownies, subject to the same restrictions as playing a CN character.
And there, at last we find some common ground.
AeonBlues
Vyris
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http://nwn.layonara.com/Dark%20Elf
Mysterious, elegant, dark and deadly, they are feared and hated by all the races of Layonara. They are masters of magic and treachery, trusted by none, not even each other.
When Dark Elves come to the surface to raid, they come at night, and every child of Layonara has heard the whispered tales of the Dark Ones even before they have been officially warned of Those Below...
I don't think this thread's intent was to ask, "Hey, wait, do the common people actually hate drow?" It's one of a thousand complaints over time reminding people that yes! They do! Most of the comments on this thread (which is kind of moot at this time) acknowledge that and either say it is well handled, or how it can be handled better. Dorg posted. Players of drow have posted. You don't need to drag GMs and writers in here to post it again, just search the forums for "drow." The view of the surfacers towards drow has been posted gods know how many times by a huge amount of people.
I'm not saying that people can't learn to accept one that has proven his or herself, or Lucinda forbid, deny someone their RP. We're talking about the vast majority of people on Layonara who DON'T have those years of experience saying, "Whatever, I can kick his butt if he tries anything." They are afraid and hateful, and rightly so. Please let's not bring the "we should all love each other" IC arguments out of game, to apply back in-game...it doesn't make any sense.
I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun. It's actually the exact opposite. It's not about forbidding exceptions, either--it's a reminder of the rule that the exception is for. I really dislike the definition and perception of an entire race being changed because a few people think maybe they're okay, after all.
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AeonBlues - 9/7/2006 12:08 AM
Would you want to ruin the gaming experience of people who play dark elves?
Nope. I want to make it better. I don't want Drow players to have a good time, I want them to have an awesome time. I want them to know that when they earn the trust of another character, they have EARNED it, and that it wasn't just someone making a new buddy in town, who just happened to be an Elf with a bad sunburn.
Maybe I am too naive, but I just think that if put your society on the “good axis” then you should allow people a chance for redemption. A chance to prove themselves as a beneficial part of your society. I would think that since my character is both charismatic and persuasive, and hands merchants big sacks of gold in exchange for crafting oils and gems, ummm, that they would have built some kind of reasonable business relationship over the years. Maybe the guards would would know my character's reputation. Maybe even my character saved that guards life at one point in time. You would be amazed about how much appreciation people give you after saving their lives.
See the red? That sounds cool. But when have you ever not been able to do business with a merchant? When have you ever not been able to wave at a guard like he is your pal? You never really earned it, you just decided your character was friendly enough to do that. Maybe your character is stunningly personable, which would be great, but we'll never really know. I am all for Drow working their way into surface society, and, as you say, proving themselves beneficial. That should be a feat of roleplaying akin to achieving an Evil alignment. As it stands now, though, it's not even slightly necessary. Drow are automatically "in".
Which is probably why 90% of our dark elves don't make it past their first RL month.
I really think Vyris is closer to the mark on this one. There are a lot of casual players here, and trying to work past the ECL without a lot of quest time is rough. It's tough enough with the standard classes. Also, yours is the only post I remember that says Drow have it bad enough. Most posts, now and in the past, have said it's not hard enough, and that Drow are too easily accepted, and those by players of Drow characters. It may just be that playing a sunburned Elf isn't what they were looking for, so they dropped the Drow. *shrug*
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Gulnyr - 9/6/2006 9:57 PM
I really think Vyris is closer to the mark on this one. There are a lot of casual players here, and trying to work past the ECL without a lot of quest time is rough. It's tough enough with the standard classes. Also, yours is the only post I remember that says Drow have it bad enough. Most posts, now and in the past, have said it's not hard enough, and that Drow are too easily accepted, and those by players of Drow characters. It may just be that playing a sunburned Elf isn't what they were looking for, so they dropped the Drow. *shrug*
Yah, now that I think about it, the ELC +2 is a heavy penalty. If I wanted to power game a character on Layo, I would play a human.
If a player does not think drow have it bad enough, then they have not had the honer of playing a drow. The drama that comes out against our drow characters is a never ending ox turd in the face. And if you can't earn people's respect, then forget it.
It is also my opinion that if you make it harder on the drow, you will be basicly making the race unplayable. At a certain point it will beccome more work then it's worth.
I seriously doubt I would play another drow on Layo. A deep gnome cleric of Baryl, now we're talking layo 2.
AeonBlues
P.S. If you think I lag the server whe my character loads now, wait till I have to hire someone to buy my crafing suplies for me. Yah, I need 50 leather pouches, 50 flasks, 20 juice bottles .... Here is 5000 gold, keep the change.
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I strongly suggest you read the other posts on this thread and other threads before assuming what the majority of drow players, and people who have interacted with them, think of the situation. I'm glad someone has found it enough. The vast majority happily agree that it is not. "Please, make it harder on me--if I wanted to be hugged I would have played a stinking elf!"
I'm not really sure how else to point this out. If a drow not bothering with even a token attempt at subtlety, such as a helmet or gods even a hood, can become a licensed crafter in Port Hampshire or the capital, and preach tolerance on the streets without being dealt a glare from the authorities, let alone a heavy smite, they do not have it hard.
If ever a drow begins to be wonder at the (rare, I feel) negative reactions to his undisguised terror of the Eternal Night, I humbly propose that (s)he Put On a Helmet.
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AeonBlues - 9/7/2006 1:41 AM
The drama that comes out against our drow characters is a never ending ox turd in the face.
This sounds like a Lucindite confronting a Toranite, not anyone confronting a Drow. Not only here in this post, but also in-game; that's all it sounds like. Speaking of that...
As if the giants and ogres were not bad enough... Now I have a cleric of Vorax to worry about.
Why should a Drow character not have to worry about a Cleric of Vorax? You want drama? There's your drama. A Drow should be drowning in a sea of drama, not having a few petty squabbles before returning to his picnic lunch outside the bank in Hlint, bare face turned up to feel the warmth of the sun as a butterfly lands gently upon his nose and giggling children dance gaily about him. "O gods above! Would that I need not return to the drudgery of mine tasks within the craft hall this eve! Woe is the life of the common man!"
Alright, I got a little carried away. But my point is valid; a Drow should be concerned that everyone could be, and probably is, out to get him. A few confrontations now and then are nothing. That happens to any character with strong convictions.
At a certain point it will beccome more work then it's worth.
Maybe so, for some. How many Evil characters are there on Layonara? Is that path more trouble than it's worth? Most people probably think so, but there are some who stick it out and earn that alignment. Not only is it a real achievment, but the server is not overrun with Evil characters. Playing a successful Drow should be a similar achievment. Drow are hated by everyone. It should be very difficult to survive on the surface. It should be very difficult to play a Drow.
If you think I lag the server whe my character loads now, wait till I have to hire someone to buy my crafing suplies for me.
You're not thinking enough about the consequences of being Drow. If merchants won't sell to you, you can't even purchase a crafter's badge (they can't be transfered between characters, which can be thought of IC as requiring some sort of verifiable identification on the badge, so you can't buy one for someone else). Even if you could fake one, it's unlikely you would be allowed to enter the craft hall, anyway. This is where great PnP skills like Disguise and Forgery would come in handy... Anyway, I understand you already have the crafter's badge, but you aren't going to be shut out of the shops any time soon, so it's really a moot point.
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Why not be afraid of a cleric of Vorax? Because Layo is not a PVP server. Honestly, you all sound like a bunch of thugs at a hick town bar, "We don't take kindly to your kind around here." Sounds great when a bunch of thugs are beating up on one drow, but we know how this escalates. THe drunk thugs wander out of the bar, and a dozen dark elves go to work on them, and then the thugs sober up infront of the bind stone. Then there are more drow burnigns, more ambushes, you get the picture? If you say it's ok for a cleric of Vorax to kill a drow, then it becomves ok for a drow to slay a cleric of vorax, and you will get a server were the older characters are perming the younger ones out of existance. While my character would nevver kill an innocent in cold blood, I am sure you would get some drow that see any young cleric of Vorax as a threat to be taken out while they are sill weak in power.
As as far as the merchants and crafthalls are concerend... I suspect that would take more programming time then it is worth, if it is even possible.. More importantly, it would realy make the drow an unplayable race of PCs. Besides craft hall certifacates, there are also many things merchants sell that characters must have access to. Like spell componets, canteens and other basic suplies. What about temples? If new characters could not access temple merchants, then drow clerics would not be able to get the holy symbols they need. Not to mention he complexity around issues like, Toran is friendly with Az'atta....
Oh and by the way, being a cleric of Az'atta, my character can't realy hide himself. Technicly, he has to display a symbol of Az'atta at all times, to ensure that anyone that needs protection, aid, or healing can idendify him as a cleric of Az'atta and get help. Being a dark showdy figure that hides under a hood, offering help to anyone who needs it jusst doesn't work. If you want followers of Az'atta to hide in the shadows and not show their faces, then you would have to re develop Az'atta as a deity.
AeonBlues
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AeonBlues - 9/7/2006 4:45 PM
Why not be afraid of a cleric of Vorax? Because Layo is not a PVP server.
That's right. It isn't.
Honestly, you all sound like a bunch of thugs at a hick town bar, "We don't take kindly to your kind around here."
Show me where I said PvP against Drow should be allowed, please. I'm pretty sure the only things "we all" have said is that there is something screwy with the way Drow are being played and treated, and that things are too easy on the Drow.
Sounds great when a bunch of thugs are beating up on one drow, but we know how this escalates. THe drunk thugs wander out of the bar, and a dozen dark elves go to work on them, and then the thugs sober up infront of the bind stone. Then there are more drow burnigns, more ambushes, you get the picture?
If this were a novel or a PnP campaign, I think this is quite possibly the sort of thing that would be happening. I doubt a dozen Drow would retaliate, though. If that single Drow was stupid enough to put himself in that position, he got what he had coming. Drow are almost entirely Evil, remember? They care about other people only so far as the other people can help them. A stupid Drow is not very helpful.
If you say it's ok for a cleric of Vorax to kill a drow, then it becomves ok for a drow to slay a cleric of vorax, and you will get a server were the older characters are perming the younger ones out of existance. While my character would nevver kill an innocent in cold blood, I am sure you would get some drow that see any young cleric of Vorax as a threat to be taken out while they are sill weak in power.
I think we can agree that automatic PvP is a bad idea. Let it go and reconsider the situation. Pretend that Layonara is a real place, and that your Drow character exists in it. Consider that Drow have been enemies of the surface-dwellers for generation upon generation, and that they have attacked within the lifetime of every adult in the world. Pretend that no one has any access to LORE or any other reference materials, and consider it a fair chance that most commoners can't read, so libraries would be useless. If you were a Human commoner in Hlint, attacked not very long ago by Drow, and you saw Drow in town, what would you think? Yes, the symbol of Az'atta is visible, but what difference does that make? Everyone knows Drow can't be trusted, that they have no honor, that they only want to kill us. That Drow probably isn't a priest at all, but a spy trying to disguise himself, marking us for the next attack. I bet all those Az'attans are spies, and they do just enough good to divert suspicion.
And what about that Dwarf who fought Drow to safeguard his Clan home for four decades? All the pain and the death, the loss of his Clansmen to those horrid black raiders. Do you think he's going to look at a Drow and ignore him? Of course not. It's already part of who he is that Drow should all be destroyed. He probably thinks the Drow is a spy, too.
Oh no! The Dwarf has confronted your Drow in town. Mothers hurry their children into homes, other townsfolk make space, but you can see a few standing ready with pitchforks and crude clubs. It'll be mob mentality soon. What will you do? Remember that you know there is no PvP, but your character is in a real Layonara. Are you going to stand there metagaming that the Dwarf can't hurt you, that his threats are meaningless because he can't back them up, and that there is no mob because the game engine won't allow us to have townsfolk milling about? Or will you get into the world and play a Drow, a hated person. Hated even if he is Good. Hated for the actions of his brothers. Hated just because of how he looks.
Horrible as that sort of hatred is in real life, it makes for interesting roleplaying for mature people. If you don't want to have a hard time and you don't want to be hated for nothing, don't play a Drow.
As as far as the merchants and crafthalls are concerend... I suspect that would take more programming time then it is worth, if it is even possible..
Yes. Yes it would take more scripting than it's worth. That's exactly what I said before. There are better things to spend time on.
More importantly, it would realy make the drow an unplayable race of PCs.
No, it wouldn't. Well, it would if some half-baked system were used, but I can guarantee that the team here doesn't make half-baked systems. If Drow (and other monstrous races) were not allowed at the regular merchant and craft halls, there would almost certainly be some sort of underground, black market areas where they could conduct business. Yes, that's more scripting and areas and ... bothersomeness.
What about temples? If new characters could not access temple merchants, then drow clerics would not be able to get the holy symbols they need.
Which temples? Buying from temples should be just like making Holy Water at a temple. If your deity isn't at least "friendly" with that deity, don't make Holy Water there, and don't buy their stuff. Why would you support a church your deity doesn't like?
Not to mention he complexity around issues like, Toran is friendly with Az'atta.
Then there is a pretty good chance the Toranites would let Drow of Az'atta in. One at a time. They have temple guards, y'know, which just aren't visible because of the limitations of NWN. The guards would be on high alert while a Drow was in the temple, but wouldn't be likely to attack unless the Drow provoked them somehow. Drow are hated and distrusted. They have to be careful. It's a hard life.
Oh and by the way, being a cleric of Az'atta, my character can't realy hide himself. Technicly, he has to display a symbol of Az'atta at all times, to ensure that anyone that needs protection, aid, or healing can idendify him as a cleric of Az'atta and get help. Being a dark showdy figure that hides under a hood, offering help to anyone who needs it jusst doesn't work. If you want followers of Az'atta to hide in the shadows and not show their faces, then you would have to re develop Az'atta as a deity.
A fair point. That doesn't mean, though, that everyone goes all hippie and loves your character. He's still a Drow. He'll still be judged by his skin color far too often. He'll still be hated. It should take a LOT of work to become tolerated - not even accepted but only tolerated - in a single town. It should take a long time and a lot of good deeds before people walk by without spitting on a Drow or trying to stab him, no matter what holy symbol he wears. That has not been the case for any Drow on Layonara in quite a while. Drow are either ignored or quickly accepted by PCs, and the townsfolk just treat them like any ol' Elf.
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AeonBlues - 9/7/2006 3:45 PM Why not be afraid of a cleric of Vorax? Because Layo is not a PVP server.
It seems that you are making the points for the "you alls" but not seeing it. This is not a PVP server. Drow are hated in Layonara. When a drow walks into a public place, "we all" want to rp our characters properly and threaten, gather, and force that drow to leave. Or Kill the drow, depending on the character. But we can't. If a drow were to properly rp in Layonara, he or she should not go into these places. But you do because (metagame here) you know "we all" are not allowed to actually attack you.
Honestly, you all sound like a bunch of thugs at a hick town bar, "We don't take kindly to your kind around here." Sounds great when a bunch of thugs are beating up on one drow, but we know how this escalates. THe drunk thugs wander out of the bar, and a dozen dark elves go to work on them, and then the thugs sober up infront of the bind stone. Then there are more drow burnigns, more ambushes, you get the picture? If you say it's ok for a cleric of Vorax to kill a drow, then it becomves ok for a drow to slay a cleric of vorax, and you will get a server were the older characters are perming the younger ones out of existance.
And this is why this is not a pvp server. But it IS a RP server. So we all need to Rp our characters.
While my character would nevver kill an innocent in cold blood, I am sure you would get some drow that see any young cleric of Vorax as a threat to be taken out while they are sill weak in power. As as far as the merchants and crafthalls are concerend... I suspect that would take more programming time then it is worth, if it is even possible.
which is why we as players need to RP the situations
More importantly, it would realy make the drow an unplayable race of PCs. AeonBlues
[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]
Which is where this topic started. At least as far as I remember.
Now, I apologize for comming into this topic at such a late date I just needed to chime in.
Etinfall
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What disturbs me about this thread (other than I keep replying to it because of some horribly masochistic need to correct what seems inaccurate) is the roleplay-blending. This is exactly why playing a drow is hard for many people.
We don't hate you.
We don't even hate your character.
If someone tried to beat you up, a good amount of people here would probably help you kick their butts. Some would laugh... some would call someone else to beat them up because they spend their lives in front of a computer screen and are thus not really in the kind of shape you kick-butt with, unless it requires a keyboard...
But I digress. For the most part, the people who have replied the most often on the thread, reply because they like drow. They either love the villains and wish our drow could somehow be a part of it, or love the unique opportunities for roleplay for such a reviled race. Do we personally hate them? Uh...there aren't really any evil races in reality, just individuals and majorities. That's the difference. This is fantasy. They are a sweepingly evil race and the good ones are FREAKS. :) Telling us OOC that sweeping hatred of a race is wrong, oh my, does nothing. I'm pretty sure necromancy and Toranites wouldn't be all that popular, either.
You can't just change their definition and the perception of the common people that is written in a thousand different places, because hatred is a tool for evil. That doesn't change that it's a fact that it exists. We want the situation to REFLECT the fact.
So please don't start tossing around "thugs at a bar" comparisons when we just want players of drow to be challenged and play in an environment that has appropriate responses to drow, not play some weak, watered down sunburned elf who is widely accepted everywhere. Ruin someone else's fun? I think not. We want them to have fun, and we want our characters to be able to have fun without some drow characters parading around openly and taking advantage of the fact that neither our characters, nor the unseen NPCs can actually DO anything.
Ruin fun, no. Get some of it back, yes.
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Acacea - 9/7/2006 4:42 PM
What disturbs me about this thread (other than I keep replying to it because of some horribly masochistic need to correct what seems inaccurate) is the roleplay-blending. This is exactly why playing a drow is hard for many people.
We don't hate you.
We don't even hate your character.
If someone tried to beat you up, a good amount of people here would probably help you kick their butts. Some would laugh... some would call someone else to beat them up because they spend their lives in front of a computer screen and are thus not really in the kind of shape you kick-butt with, unless it requires a keyboard...
But I digress. For the most part, the people who have replied the most often on the thread, reply because they like drow. They either love the villains and wish our drow could somehow be a part of it, or love the unique opportunities for roleplay for such a reviled race. Do we personally hate them? Uh...there aren't really any evil races in reality, just individuals and majorities. That's the difference. This is fantasy. They are a sweepingly evil race and the good ones are FREAKS. :) Telling us OOC that sweeping hatred of a race is wrong, oh my, does nothing. I'm pretty sure necromancy and Toranites wouldn't be all that popular, either.
You can't just change their definition and the perception of the common people that is written in a thousand different places, because hatred is a tool for evil. That doesn't change that it's a fact that it exists. We want the situation to REFLECT the fact.
So please don't start tossing around "thugs at a bar" comparisons when we just want players of drow to be challenged and play in an environment that has appropriate responses to drow, not play some weak, watered down sunburned elf who is widely accepted everywhere. Ruin someone else's fun? I think not. We want them to have fun, and we want our characters to be able to have fun without some drow characters parading around openly and taking advantage of the fact that neither our characters, nor the unseen NPCs can actually DO anything.
Ruin fun, no. Get some of it back, yes.
You are wasting your time. Some of the people you are arguing with here on this thread, argue just because they can. They think their characters are number one and are not going to listen to an opinion or an idea from anyone else. They didn't come here to give constructive solutions or help with valid input for the community as a whole. I haven't even bothered trying to explain that RA Salvatore created what we know as Drow. I know that Gary Gygax was the one who actually first created Drow and even had it set for them to show up in the Fiends Folio around 1979. Gary gave drow the concept and used them as monsters. RA Salvatore released Homeland and made Drow into a society with a background and history, he took Gary Gygax's idea and made it what we call Drow today. The Wright Brothers may have been the first to fly, but in no way am I going to give them credit for the 747 Jet I hop to Chicago. Now the little prop plane they try to shove me on as a connecting flight...maybe =)
I understand where the Az'atta Drow are coming from, and agree it should be the hardest on you, because everyone should see you for a hated drow and treat you as such. Your PC being apart of Az'atta should make the local folk suspicious of the temple of Az'atta for having a Drow among her ranks. I have played a Drow PC on Layo since Oct of 2004. Is it hard? Is it easy? It is exactly what I make it as a player. I personally choose the road less traveled here on Layonara and make it hard. I make sure all PCs walk away from my drow either fearing him or disgusted and wanting to never see him again. No one ever complains about the RP, and most love that they can be hateful to me IC and treat my PC like a Drow.
These people saying the shops should be KoS and the guards KoS are IMO correct. However the simple solution is a black market with a trade hall. Then so what if a Drow can not go to Hlint and Hampshire openly? The drow could still go else where for their supplies. This is not hard code, you just set all NPCs kos to those races. Then you make one small city some where known for it's black market where everyone can go and buy from. It only makes it harder for the monster races by making them run a bit further.
I played on another server that put monster races on one side of the world underground, and everyone else on the other side above ground. Monster races were KoS every where but the starting location and a select few "dark" merchants that sold to everyone. All non monster races were kos in that underdark city. I played a Minotaur of Malar there. When my other evil allies (Bane/Talos worshiping humans mostly) went to town, I stayed out and terrorized the locals around the city walls until the guards came. The players were not spread out at all. It gave a central hub for like minded PCs who wanted to play evil/monster races and for the rest of the player base.
I hope in the future that something like this can be done here on Layonara, or in Layo II. Either way I recommend just letting it go with the few who are fighting with you. They are not contributing to ideas or the thread. I love the one who said it is the drow communities fault that he can not RP with them, because he wrote his history up having faught drow for like 40 years. He is the one to blame to blame for his lack of "RP' the way he would like too. He knows Layo and the rules of Layo. If he didn't want the RP problems, then he should have written up a different background. I just love how it is my personal fault for his concept.
If I didn't want the problems my Drow faces, I could have made him a Paladin of Toran like others have.
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Well, let me put it this way.
As a Dwarf. I feel it would be within my logical RP to attack and attempt to kill:
Drow, Orcs, Duergar, Half/races of the Giant, Ogre and Orc stock.
I also feel that as a battleprist of Vorax, due to the dogma or Vorax, it would be within my logical RP to attack and attempt to kill:
Priests of any 'enemy' diety, and any mage that casts an arcane spell ON my person against my wishes, this includes mages who think it's funny to cast darkness on voraxians while in town because they know I can't retaliate with anything meaningfull.
Now, As a for instance, if you and I were both amenable to a physical confrontation between our characters and say... oh, Pankoki happened to be on, we could ask him witness the fight as long as there was an RP reason behind the bloodshed and we both agreed that this was a logical conclusion to our RP. He would ask us if we could settle it with dice-bags, etc, etc. but ultimately, we CAN do it if we both agree. The GM team strives to discourage this course of action.
In my vision of a 'better' system all the 'monstrous' races would have the same restrictions as a CN alignment does currently, that was we understand that the people playing them have some RP experience. Further I would add a section like Paladins and clerics do now, about thier dieties Dogma, but this would essentially be a disclaimer that the player would agree to stating that they understand that playing a 'monstrous' race will no doubt lead to another player confronting them with the intent to kill them, that such encounters will result in the loss of XP if the attacker succeeds. Further the disclaimer would not that merchants in populated areas will react negatively to the presence of a 'monstrous' race in their shop. Their reaction would range from unwillingness to trade to hostility (calling the guard, etc.).
As a 'monstrous' race of course you would have the option of doing what your racial tendancies say, ie. attacking as opportunity dictates. In order to provide a family friendly experience for those who wish to avoid such confrontations I would think a "PvP list would be sufficient. Those players of 'goodly' races who WISH to be able to follow that course of RP sign up and are then allowed PvP unless they abuse their priveledges. Monstrous races have no choice, thats the price they pay for being monstrous. But in return they are free to ambush any character who has put himself on that list as well. That way my 8 year old can play with all the tanned elves he wants, and not worry about getting ganked, which is not the experience I'd want for my son.
And really, all we are doing here is espousing our beliefs on what our current system allows. I really don't think things will change much. Some people say that allowing PvP is a pandoras box, and far more trouble than it's worth.
I personaly would rather not have Drow on the server at all, than do as I currently do and ignore them. I feel that the current system doesn't allow me to react appropriately, and allows THEM to react innapropriately, with no recourse for myself.
Anyway, it's not a 'thug' mantality, it's a logical conclusion to a illogical situation. My character is Never going to accept a Drow, period. If Berdin were fighting undead and was outnumbered and having a tough time, and a Drow came along, and offered to help, Berdin would stop attacking the undead and attempt to kill the Drow before the undead killed him. It's not that I as a person want to hunt you down and kill your character, it's that your characters race are mortal enemies of my characters entire race. Regardless of whether Drow on the surface fart rainbows or not.
//edit
What I am trying to point out is that due to server restrictions, and a lack of a willingness on 'many' peoples part who play these races to 'self ostracise' themselves, or react as if they actually ARE a reviled race it impinges apon MY ability to RP what I consider a fitting reaction to what MY character would wish to do if he were able. The restrictions on 'monstrous' races rely on voluntary RP on those parties part, and voluntary reactions on other players parts to RP a sense of strife. I, personally am no longer willing to go through the metagame dance, and lose my immersion in the game because of it. That is all I am trying to point out. basically expanding on the ideas that others have stated already in this thread for why THEY don't like the way Drow are now.
Vyris
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Drizzlin - 9/7/2006 8:54 PM
You are wasting your time. Some of the people you are arguing with here on this thread, argue just because they can. They think their characters are number one and are not going to listen to an opinion or an idea from anyone else. They didn't come here to give constructive solutions or help with valid input for the community as a whole.
Vague remarks like this only work to cause problems through misunderstanding. It is much more constructive and effective to site specifics and ask for clarification. It could simply be that something was poorly written or misread.
Can you please point out specific instances of people arguing just because they can, people proclaiming their characters number one, people refusing to listen to ideas from others, or people purposely sabotaging the thread by not being constructive or providing valid input?
Thank you.
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IMHO
#1: We do NOT have a Drow problem!
#2:However we do have a RP problem.
#3: Some of the RP problem cannot be fixed-> (Due to server rules)
#3a=Example 1: Vyris - 9/7/2006 8:09 PM
As a Dwarf. I feel it would be within my logical RP to attack and attempt to kill:
Drow, Orcs, Duergar, Half/races of the Giant, Ogre and Orc stock
Vyris
#3b=Example 2:
We MUST work around or adapt our RP accordingly. Like the fact that Garnet has friends that are Drow and/or Goblin, some are Arcane casters and even warshipers of Enemy races. If this was pure PnP type RP, this would never just happen, and only happen with DM intervention.
CURE:
As I see it we need to try to get along and any "evil" races or classes need to reject their past and work for the good of the community. After all you "left" for a reason. Make one up and use it.
How well if you are "evil" or from an "evil" background (even LE alignment) can work with others, yes for a personal goal but get along with others that can help you. If played correctly you will just Never reach that goal thus always letting you work with others.
Zen
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Vyris - 9/6/2006 4:52 PM
I guess it rubs me wrong that as per my character bio Berdin spent the better part of 30-40 years fighting the Drow in the tunnels of his clans mines, and now, since he's on the surface he's restricted to sneering and threating, which, the recipient is likely to respond to by mocking me and hiding behind the FACT that I can't do a darned thing to them. Dwarves aren't the type to tell you what a lowly worm you are, if they are going to expend effort in your direction it's going to be with an axe. I understand why, because PvP always gets out of hand, and there is far more constructive things the GM team can do with their time than make sure that we aren't out just hunting other PC's down and being jerks.
Drizzlin - 9/7/2006 6:54 PM
I hope in the future that something like this can be done here on Layonara, or in Layo II. Either way I recommend just letting it go with the few who are fighting with you. They are not contributing to ideas or the thread. I love the one who said it is the drow communities fault that he can not RP with them, because he wrote his history up having faught drow for like 40 years. He is the one to blame to blame for his lack of "RP' the way he would like too. He knows Layo and the rules of Layo. If he didn't want the RP problems, then he should have written up a different background. I just love how it is my personal fault for his concept.
Essentially, what I gather from that quote, is that I shouldn't play a dwarf, because it's not the drows fault that dwarves don't like them. I don't ever remember blaming you personaly for anything. I would love to RP conflict with a drow, I RP conflict with a couple clerics of Az'atta, and several magicians, who all RP thier side of the conflict, not sit mockingly on a park bench in Hlint and tell me to "Do something about it, stubby."
I brought up my characters Bio because it's typical. Ask any Dwarven character in game, in character how they feel about Drow and you'll recieve about 98% 'bash 'em' responses. Nowhere did I say it's the 'Drow communities fault' that Layonara isn't a PvP server, and I certainly don't blame YOU personaly, unless your the one who was sitting on the park bench casting darkness, then running around bumping me while I was invisible and trying to craft...Then you ARE the problem. I did however build apon a point made by AR7, who I personally regard as one of the very best roleplayers on Layonara, and who's opinion I give much weight.
Ar7 - 8/31/2006 9:31 AM
1) Monster races
I used to RP hatred towards all monster races and tried to drive them out of town. I was successful at first but as the world grew and more and more players came I faced very weird situations. Unfortunately many people began metagaming here and I just dropped the entire thing, it just became a useless waste of time that just wasn't fun. The example of the situation, very much simplified, just to give the basic idea.
Rufus: Get out of town!
Drow: But I am a good drow...
Rufus: You don't belong here, just wait until the militia arrives
Drow Metagame Nr 1: I am not afraid of the law, the people of Hlint have nothing against me (nothing against a drow?!?!)
Rufus: Alright, then I will personally remove you from this town
Drow Metagame Nr 1: I am not afraid of a little wizard and your magic
Rufus: *summons something big and nasty*
Drow: *laughs*
So this was a rough example, conclusion? It becomes really old really fast when I am not able to do anything and just face a blank wall. In reality Rufus would have executed that drow or goblin or giant or whatever on sight, if he didn't have a good reason to be there aaaaand would so arrogantly mouth off.
It is exactly THAT situation which I have encountered innumerable times when encountering Drow, and which I would have to say directly relates to my "lack of "RP" the way I want to", which I thought was a pretty rude comment on your part.
It has nothing to do with how I would LIKE to RP my character. I would be perfectly content using the PC dicebag to either intimidate the drow, or have a 'virtual physical' confrontation and either I pick my butt up off the ground and admit I got beat, or I trot the drows' butt off to the gates and give him a healthy kick in the kiester as I RP tossing the dark skinned devil out of town.
It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that a large portion of the Drow I have encountered react exactly as AR7 described, if not to make things worse by following my character and casting darkness, etc at him, or casting invisibility on themselves and 'bumping' me after I've given up on being able to RP the confrontation the way it SHOULD be.
As for argueing, whats the point in having an opinion if you aren't willing to defend it? being dismissive of other peoples opinions doesn't validate your own. I have actually changed or modified several thoughts I had in the course of this discussion based on input from people who's opinions differ from my own. Debate is the lifeblood of innovation, without it there would be no intellectual advancement at all. Perhaps through this thread the GM team may find ideas they would like to implement in Layonara II.
Judging from my experience on the GM team I am pretty positive that there was a fair bit of discussion about not allowing any sub-race applications for a while, just as I am sure theres probably a thread in the GM forum that tracks this discussion. If not I am positive that it's being read by members of the GM team, checking to make sure peoples tempers stay in check.
Regardless, it passes the time, and in some way we are coming together to find an ideal model of what we think the drow society and such should be like on Layonara. I can honestly see a consensus of common ideas beginning to form, and thats the first step towards formulating any serious solution.
Vyris
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Allow me to state something that DS said over Yahoo (and approved for posting here, never fear).
Elf : Drow IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO Caucasian : African American.
They are difference species. Not just different skin colours. And this isn't just a societal difference, either...
Personality traits tend to run in families. We can all accept this, right? That there's some hereditary link regarding personality.
The Drow have been killing any and all children who showed "defects" like kindness, compassion, or charity. For millenia.
Sure, there's the odd one who isn't a ruthless, siblicidal death machine, but... They're reasonably few and far between.
Drow are killers. That's how the general populace sees them, and that's how they are.
Why we don't kill them on sight, I don't really know. ;)
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Gulnyr - 9/7/2006 6:36 PM
Drizzlin - 9/7/2006 8:54 PM
You are wasting your time. Some of the people you are arguing with here on this thread, argue just because they can. They think their characters are number one and are not going to listen to an opinion or an idea from anyone else. They didn't come here to give constructive solutions or help with valid input for the community as a whole.
Vague remarks like this only work to cause problems through misunderstanding. It is much more constructive and effective to site specifics and ask for clarification. It could simply be that something was poorly written or misread.
Can you please point out specific instances of people arguing just because they can, people proclaiming their characters number one, people refusing to listen to ideas from others, or people purposely sabotaging the thread by not being constructive or providing valid input?
Thank you.
Why? I am not attacking anyones opinion. I am not cutting and pasting their opinion so I can tell them they are wrong. If the shoe fits...well you know the old saying. This is the problem with this thread right now, too many people are attacking each other and trying to be "right", rather than give some constructive input.
If I read a thread, and I can not add to it constructively (mainly threads where people are giving opinions, or asking questions) I don't post on it. If you don't agree with someone, you don't have to pick their post about and try to "prove" their opinion wrong.
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I always considered it a courtesy to add quotes in a reply when you are responding to a specific point someone else has made. I don't think it detracts from the previous persons position at all, it just lends a referance so you don't have to scroll back and forth to find what someone is talking about.
I'm beginning to get the feeling that some of the people who've been active in either watching or participating in this thread get the feeling that their opinions are being under-valued or dismissed, but in reality, if we were all sitting around a big table at a Denny's or something, drinking bad coffee and discussing this the discussion might be intense at times, but I can honestly say that I'd be listening attentively to what you had to say.
Anyway, such as it is I guess we get to a point in a conversation where people have said all they can to support their view or refute the view of people they are attempting to sway with their arguements. I'm thinking I've pretty much said all I can about how I feel on it and I'll leave everyone else to chime in or not as they wish.
Vyris
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Drizzlin - 9/7/2006 11:50 PM
Why? I am not attacking anyones opinion.
But you are. You have made the statement that one or more people have posted opinions that are somehow unworthy, that their opinions are not constructive, and that they are posting merely to amuse themselves.
This is the problem with this thread right now, too many people are attacking each other and trying to be "right", rather than give some constructive input.
Your post is the closest I have seen anyone come to attacking anyone. Several people have posted opinions of what they think is wrong, or what they think might be a solution, and several people have expanded on those posts with reasons why the ideas may or may not be sound. That is the essence of debate. It's how people come to a consensus. "Constructive" doesn't necessarily involve giving positive responses. Commenting on why something is impractical, for example, can be constructive.
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Lets keep this contructive and polite or the thread will be locked. Drizzlin please don't snipe at people a healthy discussion lends both sides of an argument and doesn't leave broad statments of inferiority as implied in this post as you are doing exactly what you are complaining about. Thank you.
Drizzlin - 9/7/2006 8:54 PM
You are wasting your time. Some of the people you are arguing with here on this thread, argue just because they can. They think their characters are number one and are not going to listen to an opinion or an idea from anyone else. They didn't come here to give constructive solutions or help with valid input for the community as a whole.
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To make some inputs to the debate...
Firstly... Someone mentioned the problem with Drows in Hlint, well that is the problem with it being a starting area, a person making a Drow cant help ending up there ?... in a real life, the world would be full of shady places where the drow could choose to start its carrieer, in places where no one would give a ... what you were, atleast to some extent... ewen getting items, gear and such... but to my knowledge these places dont exist, couse everything that could be in a real world isent in a created one, that is a limitation due to the fact that the creators ewen if they so wish cant create or build everything or populate it with NPCs representing every person that would excist in a real world...
Secondly... Most drow that get out of the underdark is usually rather experienced and are rather powerfull, ewen more so if they done it on their own, wich also adds to the fear of the drow...
Thirdly... In the little time iwe played on layonara, iwe been scorned, mistrusted, asked to leave the village, but i have also been met with friendliness... Hlint is a wery little place, the word/rumour would spread wery fast, for example if my character is seen with a paladin Toran, law and order, Paladins wich are known to sense evil at mere sight... now if i walk side with side with that paladin, wouldent all commoners see this, and wouldent word spread about this... There are sooooo many aspects that cant and will newer befully represented ewen if we wish it to be...
Fourthly... Ewen if you see the arms or legs of a character and not its face, you cant know its a drow... you should as NON-drow asume its a darkskinned elf or ewen darkskinned human... black tanned humans would be ALOT more common then drows on the surface... Take for example the Tuareg culture of sahara in africa, they are veiled and are wery dark skinned... Then we have the limitations of the game mechanics, i want my character to look good, and if i am to cower my characters complete body in clouthes, you will end up with wery little choises left, and still look good...
Fifth... Dont asume someone roleplays badly, there might be alot of aspects behind the role, you have no idea about...
/M
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This discussion has been very good, barring a few remarks towards others posting in this thread. Let us not pull a sound discussion into personal accusations and stay on topic. This IS a topic I have argued in dozens of times and it comes up every once in a while because it creates frustration.
I am on the same fence as AR7 and Vyris here. I have RPed heavily against any drow Kobal has met on Layonara for a long time. After two years though it gets old and these days I ignore them or bluntly tell them to bugger off when they approach me. I mostly refuse to deal with them in wares - and in the cases where one has proven his personality by bringing others that spoke for him and having a priest speak for him I have dealt with them on the same terms as everyone else. In all other cases I tend to refuse to deal with them or I ask double the normal price.
As a rule of thumb Kobal views ANY drow on the surface as spies. Why else would they be running around Hlint, trying to make friends? It is because they want to learn about us, then ask questions about defences and the strength of our garrisons and standing army.
Those who claim to be good and try to convince one by commiting acts of good cannot be trusted either because they are traitors to their kin. And every dwarf knows: You cannot trust a traitor.
The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is when I attend quests, where there are drow in the party Kobal does not know. Those Kobal knows he can keep an eye on and be calmed by the fact that he knows what they can do - he knows he can take them down should the need arise. But new drow are a problem, and I have left a few quests due to that over the years, which I do not like to do. I have challenged drow to leave and asked other members of the group to back me up before they consider fighting alongside someone who may trip you or stab you in the back. 9 out of 10 times I have ended up leaving the group and the quest myself - anything else would be bad RP of Kobal's character.
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Hmm…I avoided from shoving my two cents into this conversation for a while, but now If it’s alright I wish to make a few comments.
I don’t remember exactly how long ago it was, but back when I was still in highschool (Somewhere between May and June I’m guessing) I made a Drow character , just to see what it was like: Shri. My top reasons for doing this were
1) too many of the Drow I had seen had expected to be (And almost always , as a result, were) Trusted, good, not struggling with the darkness that’s supposed to reside within them at all. Either that or they were “Chaotic mischief makers” (The type that cast darkness and run, or bump into you invisible). I wanted to try something different, something that I’ve only seen two to three Drow do in the past: I wanted to play a Drow.
2) Of those Three Drow I speak of that actually played as what I’ll refer to as “True Drow” (not counting the Az’attites , they get a free pass with me), none of them, so far as I could tell were females. Meaning, all three of their were followers of Ca’Duz. As a result, I saw (While looking upon the Server Stats quite extensively) that very few people worshipped Vierdri’ira. So I decided to give it a shot.
Needless to say I got fed up with her fast. If It wasn’t people trying to convert me to “The ways of the surface” or the ways of Az’atta (which was actually kind of fun), It was people treating me with friendliness , then whining to me (Both in character and out) When I replied with hostility. I put Shri aside and focused back on Rhynn: it just wasn’t going the way that I had planned.
With the advent of this thread, I decided to try an experiment and pull her back out. What I came back to was a MUCH better representation of how Drow in Hlint should be treated. Granted, there were still some problems, but it was a much better rp then it was back in May/June. I was sure to thank everyone (Via tells) Who reacted accordingly to Shri, and eventually had to have her suck it up and realise that if she didn’t at least appease the “blexing surfacers” until the time comes where she could surpass them (Shri isn’t an idiot, she knows these people can swing a sword/axe/whatever/take a hit better than her. She’s a bit of a runt/weakling anyway, just striving to follow her people‘s way of things) that she would have nothing but trouble, and while relishing in manipulating and overtaking people, she knows its just not something she’s ready to face yet.
So What am I trying to get to with this, if you read nothing else, read this:
PEOPLE ARE LISTENING TO THIS THREAD!
GOOD JOB! =)
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ok, so... we have established that there is a problem, and that it needs to be... tweaked, modified, or somehow saved.
well, how about have GM's randomly attack Hlint or various other towns when there is a gathering of PC's!!! see 10 people RP'ing in Hlint? take a half dozen (or less, depending on strength of characters.. or more!!!!) drow and attack Hlint. if theres a drow in the party, that would be better... people could learn from it
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They've done it though. There have been Drow attacks on Hlint and Spellgaurd in the past (Im assuming these were actual attacks and not just a written history seeing as I myself was not there for them). I've seen Drow come to Hlint personally targeting certain people (during the time just after the Pandemonium horses Arch in April, a Drow came to attack Ireth. Im sure there are more instances of this).
More recently two drow followed by a Bebelith (I think that's what it was. Snakey thing) attacked Hlint as well...
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more, more often? it IS the dark ages, and drow can see better now, right? day or night? remember, game time, its been years since a drow attack
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With my Drow character I have found mixed reactions, however I have grown quite bored with him. I've decided no longer to play him for multiple reasons which I will not delve into. However, I find it odd how some characters are so trusting of a Drow walking the streets. I guess I will use an analogy...(hopefully I do so without offending anyone)
A group of people who wear Dark Blue - Black clothing and tatoo their face with some symbol to mark their appearance continuesly go around your school/place of work/community and savagely beat random people for no odd reason. This group would obviously cause some suspicioun and mistrust (with 99% of the people minus perhaps some that would want to join the group); people would fear being assulted and the police would obviously be called for multiple reasons on multiple occasions. A prejudice and aprehension would from amongst the community of this group. Parents would tell their children to avoid the group and police would keep an eye out for member of the group.
now, a member of this group wants out, yet he is branded with his group's symbol on his head. When attempting to confrom back to society, people would not trust this man, no matter if his heart is now good. Police would keep an eye to his actions, etc.
I feel such is the same with Drow, they would be this group. I find it odd that Drow are accepted so easily in society. My character grew increasinly weak and hid appearance ... but at the same time someone acts outside of RPing and just shout out your a drow and basically ruin all RPing ability. Honestly, at first I expected much resistence and haven't been greeted with much making my character somewhat boring to play...
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Perhaps that is so, but we must remember that the GMs have a lot on their hands. Weather or not the Drow have attacked in the last few years, it is a RP stance, and the PLAYER's responsibility to realise Drow are a hated feared and shunned race. While it would be nice, the GMs shouldn't really be required to take time away from their Quest planning and/or their playing plus whatever other behind the scenes stuff they're doing for us to basically say:
This is a friendly neighborhood reminder: HATE DROW
Now I bring you back to your regularly scheduled programming....
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Harlas Ravelkione - 9/8/2006 5:19 AM
The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is when I attend quests, where there are drow in the party Kobal does not know. Those Kobal knows he can keep an eye on and be calmed by the fact that he knows what they can do - he knows he can take them down should the need arise. But new drow are a problem, and I have left a few quests due to that over the years, which I do not like to do. I have challenged drow to leave and asked other members of the group to back me up before they consider fighting alongside someone who may trip you or stab you in the back. 9 out of 10 times I have ended up leaving the group and the quest myself - anything else would be bad RP of Kobal's character.
This is a big problem on both sides and the main reason I stopped attending quests. I want to be there OOC, but I feel my drow never would want to be. I admit I have not tried "hard" to look at the exact quests, but I wish there were more quests out there that focused on shady tasks that would appeal to more monster races. If there are, and I haven't noticed them, please feel free to point me towards their direction!
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Drizzlin - 9/8/2006 8:23 AM
Harlas Ravelkione - 9/8/2006 5:19 AM
The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is when I attend quests, where there are drow in the party Kobal does not know. Those Kobal knows he can keep an eye on and be calmed by the fact that he knows what they can do - he knows he can take them down should the need arise. But new drow are a problem, and I have left a few quests due to that over the years, which I do not like to do. I have challenged drow to leave and asked other members of the group to back me up before they consider fighting alongside someone who may trip you or stab you in the back. 9 out of 10 times I have ended up leaving the group and the quest myself - anything else would be bad RP of Kobal's character.
This is a big problem on both sides and the main reason I stopped attending quests. I want to be there OOC, but I feel my drow never would want to be. I admit I have not tried "hard" to look at the exact quests, but I wish there were more quests out there that focused on shady tasks that would appeal to more monster races. If there are, and I haven't noticed them, please feel free to point me towards their direction!
This is an RP server, however RP should never directly limit a player from having a good time. Being forced to leave a quest because of your char is not right. At least not if it happens often.
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Niles09 - 9/8/2006 2:32 PM
Drizzlin - 9/8/2006 8:23 AM
Harlas Ravelkione - 9/8/2006 5:19 AM
The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is when I attend quests, where there are drow in the party Kobal does not know. Those Kobal knows he can keep an eye on and be calmed by the fact that he knows what they can do - he knows he can take them down should the need arise. But new drow are a problem, and I have left a few quests due to that over the years, which I do not like to do. I have challenged drow to leave and asked other members of the group to back me up before they consider fighting alongside someone who may trip you or stab you in the back. 9 out of 10 times I have ended up leaving the group and the quest myself - anything else would be bad RP of Kobal's character.
This is a big problem on both sides and the main reason I stopped attending quests. I want to be there OOC, but I feel my drow never would want to be. I admit I have not tried "hard" to look at the exact quests, but I wish there were more quests out there that focused on shady tasks that would appeal to more monster races. If there are, and I haven't noticed them, please feel free to point me towards their direction!
This is an RP server, however RP should never directly limit a player from having a good time. Being forced to leave a quest because of your char is not right. At least not if it happens often.
If your character is a drow, tiefling, goblin, orc, etc. then it is something you should take into consideration before you submitted the character.If you want a character that everyone will accept and be friendly with, don't play one of the 'evil' races. If you play one, you've got whatever other players throw out you. If that means you've essentially been "forced" off a quest, well, that's what you get for being a drow. If you have a problem with not being able to make quests, then submit another character or just find out a way to prove yourself. It won't be (or at least shouldn't be) easy though.
Just remember, if you play a drow, you essentially signed up for having trouble like this.
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I dont have a problem that people assualt (verbally) drows at the streets, but forcing someone of a quest is not right. Playing here is to have a good time, it can be arguing with character because they hate a character, it can be adventuring, it can be playing a quest, but how can you have a good time if you cant play the quest?
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I have both left quests and forced others to leave based on RP. If a person misses out on a quest due to sticking to their rp guns then good for them for not bending on the core of their character for ooc reasons such as I want to be on a quest, I want XP, I want neat items etc...
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I don't believe I've ever seen anyone "forced" off a quest. It all depends on the level of immersion YOU want and how much you're willing to comprimise for other players immersion wants. Harlas said he leaves quests because "anything else would be bad RP of Kobal." If your drow or drow hating character should probably leave, decide then and there (or before you even make said character) what you'll do. Do you want to stay in character and act accordingly or do you want to have fun and disregard it?
I'll admit, I've stayed on quests and compromised more than Tathnolu normally would in order to do so. Other times, I've left when Tath definatly would have stayed or at least bugged the heck out of people until it started. Some times I just wasn't in the mood to go to the trouble of RPing it all out or being dissapointed because I too had been waiting weeks for the quest. But all in all I've stepped out more than a few times because I felt that staying in character was more important than going on that totally awesome quest. *sigh* It's up to the players. (I highly doubt anyone's ever going to make a rule about it or that any GM will force you off a quest for those reasons.)
Role Play the hatred that people would and should have for drow.
Drow, Role Play that part of your drow that is intelligent and don't have your character strut around like he can't be touched.
Just don't be a total pain in the butt.
Play it out like the threats can be carried out (and if necessary, carry them out in an RP fashion).
And again, don't be a total pain in the butt.
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IceDragonDuvessa - 9/8/2006 11:35 AM
I have both left quests and forced others to leave based on RP. If a person misses out on a quest due to sticking to their rp guns then good for them for not bending on the core of their character for ooc reasons such as I want to be on a quest, I want XP, I want neat items etc...
It depends very much on how often you go on quest. Quests are some of the funniest things in here, and what truly makes Layo annihilate all the big money online RPG's, some can surely spare a quest or two since they can join them several times a week, some can only join a quest once in a week or month.
But generally, making rules that would allow players freely to kill drows as they please (RP or not, and it is absolutly absurd) or pushing people towards going out of a quest against their will - its not fun for the player anymore.
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I agree Niles, it is not fun. But having your character compromise(in rp fasion) his beliefs just to go on a quest gets to be not fun also. My characters beliefs on drow came from reading up in Lore, and before lore the regular weg pages. Also, the attacks he has seen from drow and what one paticular drow did to him (see Storm :) ) When I go to a quest and there is a drow, first thing I do is send the drow a tell saying how my char really doeasn't like drow and that he might get rude about travelling with him. I make sure it is ok with that pc that there is hard tension between them. The last thing I want to do is ruin a quest for someone else. If it seems like it will be hard to rp my char's true feelings then I will bow out. I will be truley dissapointed to leave but it just will not be woth it. I have never forced or try to force someone of a quest, even though I wanted to at times ;) I just can't do that.
On many occasions the entire party gets upset with me for speaking out on the drow being there. And when that happens I will definitely leave the party. RP'ing it the whole way, but feeling a little odd about it. Players have been allowed to create drow PCs, so I do understand it is not fair to not allow them thier fun. I just hope said drow feel the same way about the other players.
Just today I was in Hlint. A large group of people were rp'ing in town. There were a few drow there. Right in the middle of all the rp. I did not hear one mention of there being a drow sitting there chatting with everyone like they were joe farmer from down the road. So, instead of griping that drow are back in Hlint, I kept to the shadows, equipped my bane of the elf and watched. I was just not sure how to procede. I could have started the drow hate thing right there but I was afraid I would ruin some good rp'ing from everyone else. So I kept quiet. Did not get to rp very well with some very fun people, and not because there was a drow there, but because I am never sure how to procede.
I use the history of Layonara and DnD to create my views on drow.
Etinfall
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these are things that people playing a notoriously evil race need to take into consideration before they make the decision to play one of these races. As others have been said there are races you can play that people will happily include and I for one do not get to go on many quests yet I stand be my statement and would still leave if rp dictated me to do so.
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My frame of reference on this is quite simple:
"The Dark Elves, The Drow, Those Below, Those Who Have Turned To Evil, The Accursed. These are the names given by surfacers to the obsidian-skinned elves who dwell in Underdark cities. Mysterious, elegant, dark and deadly, they are feared and hated by all the races of Layonara. They are masters of magic and treachery, trusted by none, not even each other.
When Dark Elves come to the surface to raid, they come at night, and every child of Layonara has heard the whispered tales of the Dark Ones even before they have officially warned of Those Below "
--- Layonara Campaign Handbook 2nd Edition page 31
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We have a dark elf on a bench having a conversation while dressed in elegent cloths. We also have a a dark clothed man, hiding in the shadows, and keeping his hand on his sword.
Who would you be more afraid of?
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both
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Ne'er - 9/8/2006 1:52 PM
Niles09 - 9/8/2006 2:32 PM
Drizzlin - 9/8/2006 8:23 AM
Harlas Ravelkione - 9/8/2006 5:19 AM
The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is when I attend quests, where there are drow in the party Kobal does not know. Those Kobal knows he can keep an eye on and be calmed by the fact that he knows what they can do - he knows he can take them down should the need arise. But new drow are a problem, and I have left a few quests due to that over the years, which I do not like to do. I have challenged drow to leave and asked other members of the group to back me up before they consider fighting alongside someone who may trip you or stab you in the back. 9 out of 10 times I have ended up leaving the group and the quest myself - anything else would be bad RP of Kobal's character.
This is a big problem on both sides and the main reason I stopped attending quests. I want to be there OOC, but I feel my drow never would want to be. I admit I have not tried "hard" to look at the exact quests, but I wish there were more quests out there that focused on shady tasks that would appeal to more monster races. If there are, and I haven't noticed them, please feel free to point me towards their direction!
This is an RP server, however RP should never directly limit a player from having a good time. Being forced to leave a quest because of your char is not right. At least not if it happens often.
If your character is a drow, tiefling, goblin, orc, etc. then it is something you should take into consideration before you submitted the character.If you want a character that everyone will accept and be friendly with, don't play one of the 'evil' races. If you play one, you've got whatever other players throw out you. If that means you've essentially been "forced" off a quest, well, that's what you get for being a drow. If you have a problem with not being able to make quests, then submit another character or just find out a way to prove yourself. It won't be (or at least shouldn't be) easy though.
Just remember, if you play a drow, you essentially signed up for having trouble like this.
I agree 100%, but at the same time that doesn't mean the shady PCs can't hope for a Shady run quest here and there.
EDIT: My pc has been kicked off of DM quests in the past, and he completely deserved it. I don't complain about that at all.
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Elegant clothes mean nothing when they are draped about the unhooded body of murder, deceit, and backstabbing evil. The shady man might be bad news, he looks bad news, you maybe "don't like his kind and he better not stir up any trouble" but the drow is drow is drow is drow is drow. The shady man is a fearful unknown, the drow is a drow is a drow is a drow, he is a KNOWN threat, a KNOWN evil, a KNOWN grab-the-children-and-run situation. You cannot make the comparisons to real life, this is not my opinion of who I would personally be more afraid of in a situation near my home, because there ISN'T one. Your example is not correct unless you say, "There is a man in a ski mask with a gun at his hip lurking shady in the shadows, and the world's number one threat whose face has been plastered all over the television and descriptions posted and broadcasted as a murderer, rapist, torturer, responsible for massacres and completely -utterly- recognizable in front of you--which are you afraid of?" The simple answer is that shady man is NOT my biggest concern right at that moment, and I don't care how pretty Known Threat looks in his dress. I can understand people feeling that being "forced" off a quest feels extreme to them, who just want to hang out and have a good time. I've walked out of quests for roleplay reasons before and it's better than making the whole thing "just for the xp" or something for me. At least in walking out or arguing until being thrown out feels more true to character and those around me, rather than forcing everyone out of character just because I couldn't make any accomodations. It's very simple though. If you just want to get along with everyone while you're on, don't play a hated race. Don't play a reviled race. Don't play a race that might just be killed by an NPC instead of dealt with. Name calling and bluffing is usually pointless and taking it further more than once is time consuming and rarely with any lasting results or impressions. If you want to go on a quest, why do it looking like a drow? Again, I strongly suggest putting on a helmet. I know this sounds laughably simple, and yet that is the most pathetic, flimsy version of a disguise you can get... but so few bother. If you show up in a tanktop and shades to a quest full of dwarves, I don't think it's at all out of line to not be that welcome. Can we not see how silly it is that despite how inadequate something like a helmet is as a disguise, it's still asked for as some token attempt at acknowledgement? Look at how much more threatening Shady Man looks in comparison when Known Threat actually bothers to wear a wig...
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They've done it though. There have been Drow attacks on Hlint and Spellgaurd in the past (Im assuming these were actual attacks and not just a written history seeing as I myself was not there for them).
Oh yes, these were actuall attacks and actual occupations. We've also had the goody-goody-NPC dark elfenter Hlint and ask for a tour. He was taken across Mistone (by players), showed around cities and their defenses and then we launched attacks. We've done all that and more, like burning down all craft houses so people couldn't craft for several weeks.
However, as was stated before here already, we shouldn't have to run a dark-elves-are-evil-event every month or so to prove that they are.
That's what the handbook is for, that's what the history is for (nice quote above :) ).
Playing a dark elf is hard, and RPing distrust/hatred of them is hard within the rules of the server. Can it be done? Most certainly. Is it easy for the person plainyg on? No it's not. Is it easy for those who meet a dark elf PC in game? No it's not either, because maybe in the back of your mind, you're tihnking "this person is also only here to have fun so maybe I shouldn't be too nasty" , or maybe you are not certain how far you can go.
And indeed this tension may cause people to leave quests, be it the one who plays the dark elf, or one woh doesn't want to travel with one. Agreed, you're going to miss out on a quest, but on the other hand you are playing your character which people will respect and applaud you for.
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EdTheKet - 9/9/2006 5:15 AM
And indeed this tension may cause people to leave quests, be it the one who plays the dark elf, or one woh doesn't want to travel with one. Agreed, you're going to miss out on a quest, but on the other hand you are playing your character which people will respect and applaud you for.
Perhaps with the advent of the New World Leader wand, a Drow that leaves a quest that he or she could have gotten EXP/had tons of fun on Due to the fact that In character the Drow would not have been welcome/would not have wanted to be welcome, some small reward could be granted for going along with the roleplay in spite of really wanting to go on the quest as a player
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LynnJuniper - 9/9/2006 5:02 PM
EdTheKet - 9/9/2006 5:15 AM
And indeed this tension may cause people to leave quests, be it the one who plays the dark elf, or one woh doesn't want to travel with one. Agreed, you're going to miss out on a quest, but on the other hand you are playing your character which people will respect and applaud you for.
Perhaps with the advent of the New World Leader wand, a Drow that leaves a quest that he or she could have gotten EXP/had tons of fun on Due to the fact that In character the Drow would not have been welcome/would not have wanted to be welcome, some small reward could be granted for going along with the roleplay in spite of really wanting to go on the quest as a player
I assume a DM is present too to do that. ;)
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Well yeah it would be nice..I mean not that EXP should be at all required for Rping well. With those World Leader wands, if a WL tried to give me EXP for general good RP I'd tell them to kindly take it back, its not why I Rp.
Getting back on topic.
HOWEVER: Not getting to go on a quest due to the fact that your character would not be welcome despite your OOC wishes to go, and upholding the nature of your character, I think, is a special condition
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EdTheKet.. Hit. nail. head. I've seen people play their anti-drow sentiment or fear very well with occasional cutting comments or ignoring the any drow in question. Now, some individuals should be a bit more engaging in their sentiment but when does attempting to escort that drow off Mistone or out of town become possible griefing or harassment? Even if a person were doing it equally to all drow...
EXP for good RP is always a good reward, even if its a few hundred or even one or two points just to let the player know that they are doing a great job. Its called positive reinforcement. It wouldn't have to be an amount similar to finishing a quest to be a reward.
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Agreed, Hence, Small reward.
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EdTheKet - 9/9/2006 2:15 AM
They've done it though. There have been Drow attacks on Hlint and Spellgaurd in the past (Im assuming these were actual attacks and not just a written history seeing as I myself was not there for them).
Oh yes, these were actuall attacks and actual occupations. We've also had the goody-goody-NPC dark elfenter Hlint and ask for a tour. He was taken across Mistone (by players), showed around cities and their defenses and then we launched attacks. We've done all that and more, like burning down all craft houses so people couldn't craft for several weeks.
However, as was stated before here already, we shouldn't have to run a dark-elves-are-evil-event every month or so to prove that they are.
That's what the handbook is for, that's what the history is for (nice quote above :) ).
Playing a dark elf is hard, and RPing distrust/hatred of them is hard within the rules of the server. Can it be done? Most certainly. Is it easy for the person plainyg on? No it's not. Is it easy for those who meet a dark elf PC in game? No it's not either, because maybe in the back of your mind, you're tihnking "this person is also only here to have fun so maybe I shouldn't be too nasty" , or maybe you are not certain how far you can go.
And indeed this tension may cause people to leave quests, be it the one who plays the dark elf, or one woh doesn't want to travel with one. Agreed, you're going to miss out on a quest, but on the other hand you are playing your character which people will respect and applaud you for.
EdTheKet for president!!!
Couldn't say it better. It is a blast being different (even if different is suppose to be the norm). I spend a lot of lonely hours out in the wild, but have a blast in public.
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Boy, you ask and you receive.
My character Cymeran Vrin's lore page now says:
Killed By: Ketibojorn Svadi
Killed On: 2006-09-10
03:45:03
Hey says it was a miss click, and I feel I have to beleive him. Still he did not help Cym back to his grave, after cym cast many buffs and heals on Ket.
For those of you that were rooting....
Cym did not get a death token
AeonBlues
P.S. Ket's great quote after the battle was, "He musta slipd."
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You can just ask bud instead of posting on the forums.
Surrounded by creatures, IKD misclick, two hits in that flurry, both sneak crits, I apologized then and I will again in the very public forums...sorry.
It has nothing to do with the fact that you're drow or any assumption that I don't like you or anything wild like that. There are other unfortunate incidents that have happened like this. I know I've been KD'd three times by friends with my character. I have had one character here killed twice by KD's crits... one rather magnificent swing by a greataxe once. I've killed Akki once with Ketil, and while an elf, she's certainly not drow. And you're skin is whiter then mine... hard to tell you're a drow to begin with. I imploded Celgar by accident once, and I hit Triba with a destruction once by accident as well. It's not that I'm a god-awful player (I hope)... it's just that when you're in large groups, and you take chances with those sorts of things... sometimes you misclick. So the lesson I've taken from those incidents is to avoid any action that can result in instant death in large groups or confusing combat. The exception to this is in cases like this, where my character is responsible for getting people out, and really is the only melee capable of insuring that in the group. So you use what you have, in my case, IKD.
And my response was... 'oh mah, tat ain' good' *other party members look at your grave as you immediately respawned and ask what just happened* 'Ah slipped an' chopped off te skinny's 'ead...'.
So do me justice on that one at least. ;)
Furthermore, you're very hasty to assume things. Bear in mind you had to run back to Dalanthar to get back to the party. We were planning on helping you, all of us including me and someone that was running across the world in an unfortunate OOC manner to come help with that task. Then I rp'ed that I had to take a nap. This means I'm going afk instead of saying //afk for 15 folks, gotta help the wife with something. I did this, I came back, you had retrieved your grave and had already logged. There's not much more to this scenario.
It's very easy to allow forum tension to translate in-game to some sort of conspiracy. I've fallen prey to that self conscious behavior myself in the past. You just start assuming things based on the overwhelming resistance to your forum posts and that folks are out to get you.
But it's not the case, and while it's not fun to get killed by a party member, just learn to laugh at the misfortune instead of potentially getting upset about it and making any further stirs on the forums.
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Oh I know it was an accident, and was not trying to discredit you there Ket. My true intension of that post was to make people laugh at my character's expense. I spare no oportunity to get a chuckle.
Sory, I just remembered the slipped part, and was a bit confused at the time.
Just to let you know though, Cym will probably have issues with Ket that may or not be resolved depending on future RP. I know it was an accident, but Cym sure doesn't see it that way.
Aeon
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EdTheKet - 9/9/2006 9:15 PM
They've done it though. There have been Drow attacks on Hlint and Spellgaurd in the past (Im assuming these were actual attacks and not just a written history seeing as I myself was not there for them).
Oh yes, these were actuall attacks and actual occupations. We've also had the goody-goody-NPC dark elfenter Hlint and ask for a tour. He was taken across Mistone (by players), showed around cities and their defenses and then we launched attacks. We've done all that and more, like burning down all craft houses so people couldn't craft for several weeks.
However, as was stated before here already, we shouldn't have to run a dark-elves-are-evil-event every month or so to prove that they are.
That's what the handbook is for, that's what the history is for (nice quote above :) ).
I have seen this happen as well, where there was a raid and still character (even one of Paladin and cleric classes) were still showing kindness to a Drow. When I saw a Drow and RP suspicion and mistrust there a few that defended her, including classes like Clerics and Paladins. It broke out into an IC argument and what it boiled down to was a statement from the Paladin that went like saying that he was from the Toranite church and had their support so he had the justification what he did.
I think what players need to see is a properly played out RP scenario with a WL or a high leveled player (from a Church perferably) that is part of the team where there is an argument/fight(whatever it is called) and a Drow. They need a role model. Otherwise people have "no standards" to benchmark. Whenever there is a Drow attack they have justifications saying that not all Drow are like that so you cannot judge people on what other Drow have done. What is misunderstood in my opinion, and correct me if i am wrong is that people don;t understand that warlike mindset is in the Drow's blood.
Not too long ago, what I suggested did happen on a certain level. A high level and well versed character started to explain to a group of us the true meaning of what a Drow is. What they really represent and dispelled a lot of myths. Thats a good start, but in my mind, not enough.
And the RP to Drow from high level characters or from the team needs to be done constantly till it permeates to the community. Once players catch on, then it will ripple throughout the community even to the new people.
I am not saying that there should not be "good Drow". If they ever do become Good Drow, they should have earnt it, with at least a CDQ.
Oh, I do wonder how many new players do actually read the handbook fully?
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Eh. I have to say that I've been disappointed in the RP of people in Hlint regarding this issue lately. I started a new character a while back, named Barret Glib, and what's the first thing he did when he saw Cymeran? He shot him. (Dicebag work with approval from AeonBlues, in case there's doubt.)
Now, I can understand Cym's RP. He's a well-known cleric of Az'atta, so why should anyone be bothered by him? Anyhow, Cym got ticked off, and started coming after Barret. This was good. What wasn't good was the number of onlookers, some of whom didn't even know Cymeran, who chastised Barret for attacking "an evil, murderous, spellflinging Drow!"
In another instance, Barret attacked Tash'r, a tiefling. Understandably, she got torqued and started throwing spells at him. (Again, after organizing it with the player.) This is all well and good, however... Again, the problem is the people around. A clearly terrified little halfling is attacking what he's screaming is a murderous planetouched, and everyone flocks to support not the halfling, but the creature with fiendish blood in its veins.
The biggest problem I'm seeing isn't the RP of the evil races so much. It's the reactions of everyone around them.
Everyone will freak out if someone summons a skeleton to fight ogres, but noone cares when a Drow starts threatening brownies.
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Tanman - 9/24/2006 3:17 PM
It broke out into an IC argument and what it boiled down to was a statement from the Paladin that went like saying that he was from the Toranite church and had their support so he had the justification what he did.
My experience is, that about 80% of the PCs my dark elf meets, begins with suspicion and doubt. The Torite paladin here knows that the drow female in question is a follower of Az'atta. So, they must have a past RP experience (s) that most likely started with distrust. The god Toran and the dark elf goddess Az'atta are friends in the pantheon. Opposites attract as they say. Perhaps this is about lust, but most likely because they share common enemies in the pantheon. More importantly then that, there are numerous examples of Az'atta followers working with Toranites, common enemies again, with in our game world. So much so, that the Az'atta clergy is starting to feel a bit threatened that they will lose converts to Toran.
Stephen_Zuckerman - 9/24/2006 4:00 PM
The biggest problem I'm seeing isn't the RP of the evil races so much. It's the reactions of everyone around them.
Everyone will freak out if someone summons a skeleton to fight ogres, but noone cares when a Drow starts threatening brownies.
The lawfull characters should allways try to stop the fighting and put them both in front of a judge. This is why we should blame Garnet for bad RP. By all rules and standards, both our characters should have been arested, and given a fair trail.
As far as for the chaotic characters: What ever man, it's their personal opinion at the time.
I am sure that if Cymeran started attacking anyone for an unprovoked reason, all good characters would be against him. Many would be shocked with disbelief :)
AeonBlues
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I think you misunderstand the idea of a Chaotic alignment. This simply means that they are less ordered in nature... Not that thier beliefs and childhood programming are subject to change at any given moment. They typically feel less comfortable with strict and exacting rules, but... Come on. A drow is a drow is a drow.
You see some guy in a bottlebrush mustache sporting a huge swastika and shouting in a german accent about the purification of the races, you're going to be inclined to be hostile to this fellow (let's assume this isn't a satire). Likewise, someone on Layo'll see an elf (or even a slender human) with black skin, and what'll come to mind are images of Drow slaughtering anything and everything in sight, just as a person in our world would see a concentration camp when they look at our aforementioned nazi.
Garent is an NPC. Without a DM possessing him, he is mindless and worthless in terms of protecting the town from non-MOB hostiles. You can't lay blame on him; if you did that, Drow would be free to walk around unmoles- Oh, wait! They are!
Many Lawful characters would see a Monster when they saw a Drow, and would be obliged to kill it. Those who knew Cym (or at least knew OF Cym) would try to stop those others, but... Eh. Again, just because a Drow isn't glowing red doesn't mean it's not here to kll everyone and everything.
The fact remains that people properly fear a Necromancer, even if they know him (or her), while any Drow or Tiefling that walks into Hlint must automatically be a reformed soul looking to help everyone.
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Well, in most civalized towns and cities, if you start shooting anyone who is minding their own busniss while sitting on a bench, then you have broken a law. If you have a problem with somone, you should report it to the authorities. To do otherwise is criminal.
Actualy, if our character ended up in a jail cell for a month or two, that would make for some good RP.
AeonBlues
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If Cole walked up to any halfling, elf, half elf, human, dwarf arguing with a drow then he would automatically be inclined to side against a drow. But to be honest I am worn out of the explaining myself as to why I do not like drow. Everytime in Hlint I see a drow chatting with everyone. I get argumentitive, I then need to explain why, I usually say go ask the bar keep or waitress in the wild surge. There was group that were killed in there by two drow. They snuck in with the shadows and bam, many dead. (Stormspirit and Pankoki, a year ago) This would be a harsh memory for the people of Hlint, especially the workers in the Wild Surge Inn. Cole saw Garent kill a large force of drow that stormed the city about that same time. Cole fell in that battle, but was brought back by a kindly cleric who had his work cut out for him that night. But, worn out is Cole of that line of RP. Soooo...now what? And I agree, the people playing them are not NOT rp'ing thier chars. The have back stories and a lifetime of events that led them to Hlint, or to Azatta. But we either need to change the back story of drow in Layo to make them a non evil race or rp like you heard horror stories as a kid about them
Drow ARE a playable race on Layonara. I have said before that I would never want to stop someone from having fun rp'ing thier chars and enjoying Layonara.
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Yes it would. But the fact remains that Drow are creatures out of nightmares. They are not citizens, and you cannot murder them. If you could, then every goblin that got shot down just inside Hlint's gates, every Orc who came through the north gates, and every merc who chased someone in the eastern gates would have been murdered, as well.
The only reason YOUR character is accepted is because he's a powerful cleric of Az'atta. But most people just don't know that, and can't be expected to. Someone who went up against a Drow in Hlint would be considered to be trying to protect the people, because frankly, that's what they're doing. If we were to just leave every Drow who came into Hlint alone, we'd all be killed in our sleep!
The issue isn't specifically about YOUR character, Aeon. IT's about all the characters.
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I don't know man. There are goblin PCs. The reason you can kill a goblin that comes into hint and get away with it, is because the NPC goblins that come into Hint have short shwords equipped, and they are using them too! They start attacking any person or ox until they are put down. If a unarmed goblin messanger came into town, delivering a message from the goblin leader, he would not be killed. Just forced to leave after delivering said message.
It seems to elude everyone in this discussion that there are 3 drow gods in the patheon. Ca'Duz, Vierdri'ra, and Az'atta. One of these gods is good aligned, enemies with all the evil underdark gods, and on good terms with most of the good ones. She is the shining example to all Drow that they can turn from evil, betray their masters, and live a life of good.
So, the drow are more complex then "They are all evil monsters." There are good drow in the underdark, living in secret and making secret plots to promote their good agenda. Their are drow living on the surface, that follow the path of Az'atta, and provide an example that being good is possible. Thogh is it more difficult.
Quite frankly there are many very well played dark elfs in the PC comunity. Ranging from LG to CN. I would say that about 80% of all drow PCs I come across worship Az'atta. One I know worships Folian. The rest either worship an evil drow god or no god at all.
Yes most dark elf PC's you meet are good, and they act that way. This is not bad RP, this represents the fact that there is a good dark elf goddess in the patheon, and she is represented mostly by the heoros and adventures. And a small city of undead, but that is a story for another time. One out of a thousand dark elves are good, and mostly to be found in Hint, go figure.
AeonBlues
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One out of ten million is a closer estimate, Aeon. As far as your average commoner knows, Drow ARE all evil monsters.
If we allowed Pit Fiends to be player races, would some of them suddenly be good, and the sheer terror their image invokes in ANYONE simply fade out?
Sadly, I think so.
If a goblin came into Hlint, most people (read: most commoners and NPCs) wouldn't care if it had a weapon out; how long does it take to draw one, or simply bite someone's face off?
The problem arises when ANYONE expects people to be accepting and slow to judge. There's no process of judgement with the evil races for VIRTUALLY ALL of the population. If it's one of the "evil races," it is a monster, and will kill you if you don't kill it first. There are exceptions to this, yes, but VIRTUALLY NOONE KNOWS THIS.
Until we get a WL Drow, I can't think of any reason it should be any other way.
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The view of my character, a priest of Aeridin, Valdemar Harredsunn, is that he knows drow are generally evil.
A big word that, 'generally'.
Even 'overwhelmingly' evil is not 100%.
It still means that there are some who are not.
Even if it is only a handful in a race of tens of thousands who defy the trend, isn't it better to be CONTINUOUSLY disappointed than to not trust any of them? Valdemar believes on judging every individual on deeds alone - it strikes him as irrelevant what the overwhelming trend may be about a race. This is his same perspective/attitude be it teiflings, goblins, giantkin, orckind or for that matter, aasimar or some other 'generally' benevolent race.
Maybe that come across as 'bad RPing' on my behalf? Maybe there are others who share this view and that's why they treat the drow in and around Hlint as they do ...
PS. My other character, Arkolio's opinion? Kill em all!
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However, Pseud, your priest is a very small minority, even among the teensy, teensy percentage of the population that is the adventurers.
It doesn't make it bad RP... Your character is specific about extending an olive branch towards everyone; it's not just an apathetic "Oh, another drow" thing.
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Well I dont see the problem in the few good drows around, because they are few. Sure, the good drow PC's outnumbers the evil ones, but dont forget about the NPC's. How many active good drows do we have at the moment? 10? That would be fine, considering the millions of evil drows down in the underdark.
About people not acting hostile against drow, yeah they are supposed to do that, but I wouldnt force them. How far RP can go differs from person to person, some of us see it all as RP, some prefer to keep it comfortly meaning avoid verbal assualts on other characters.
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Well Just speaking from the out of Drow perspective and personal experiance
1) Rhynn's too stupid to judge people (unless they're enchantresses/enchantors, then you're automatically on her blacklist), This goes for Drow , Teiflings, Wemics, you name it. It lands her in some stupid ... she just -doesnt learn-. And thats mainly because...well..I like laughing at Rhynn's grief and stupidity...
2) Meriam's scared to death of Drow. Nuff said. Teiflings don't scare her unless its extra noticable. IE: If you're skintone is a bit off she may not notice but if you're walking around with Horns and a Tail spitting planar Cant you're going to get a bad reaction.
3) Laereth is the problem....her Elven heritage puts a basic Hatred of Drow within her, but as a paladin of Aeridin she is taught not to judge. She is at constant battle for this reason with the ways of her race and the ways of her deity, and therefore attempts to ignore the Drow problem completley....
So Like Niles stated, you shouldn't force the Rp. Sometimes people just have reasons for acting the way they do twoards others, and you can't really set a standard otherwise. Yes, I agree "Monster Races" Should be generally distrusted, but you also can't assume people don't have a sound reason for trusting them off the bat. They may just be idiots *hugs Rhynn*
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oh and another thing. Why should people assault drows? Say a 8 lvl ranger comes into Hlint for the first time. There on the benches he sees a drow. Now, everything he knows is drows are evil - what to do? Assualt him verbally? That would be ok if it wasnt because the drow is dressed in an platinium armor, a glowing amulet hangs around his neck and his armor bears many many scars from battle, obviously he is a very experienced warrior. Now how smart is it to provoke someone that obviously can kill you in seconds, and you think he is plain evil meaning he would, after your opnion, not take provokes "lightly"? Ofcourse the elf might think that he would start attacking people anytime anyway, but the chance of survival is still much much bigger if you start running at that point. It would ofcourse be absolutly ok, that and equal assualted an equal.
Point is: It might be bad RP to ignore another race but.... Hiding behind the non existing PvP is just as bad.
EDIT: Doh! screwed my finish line... What is the opposite of PvP called?!
Point is: It might be bad RP to ignore another race but.... Hiding behind the fact-that-you-cant-be-killed-by-another-players is just as bad.
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The drow in question wouldn't in fact sit in the middle of Hlint. Drows has attacked Hlint before, so I seriously doubt any non-disguised drow would be able to freely "sit in the town" before a large mob of citizens started to gather with pitchforks. :)
I'm not going to write a long thread of "why this and why that" here now, as I don't think it will make any real difference. Arguments for why people generally should dislike/hate drow has already been laid out. This kind of start to feel like a "Intel vs AMD" thread... Hehe... The ones who love Intel will still do it, and the others will still stick to AMD. Though, in a "like drow/dislike drow" way instead. ;)
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Again.... The farmers wouldnt stand a chance, I doubt they ever would get the will to do such a thing. And I think it would be a bit harsh to ban the drow PC's from the benches of Hlint :P
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The poor drow would be in a no-win situation. If he raised a finger against the farmers, he would have an army and a half of paladins and other "good" people on his back. If he's not... Well... I think he would prefer to run out from town rather than getting burned. Most people really dislikes to be on fire! :P
One could say that what the farmers are doing would be against the law and things. But I doubt the rouling council would actually punish them for doing that. Though, Leanthar or EdTheKet or some other GM would probably have to confirm/decline this. :)
Edit: Wow... This thread -is- getting old... hehe!
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You have to see it from the farmers point of view! Sure the drow is good and wont kill them, but they dont know! If they think it is evil enough to be a serious thread I doubt they would think it would be scaried by them or run instead of slaying a few of them, before the guards come.
And by the way Intel RULES!... or wait.. dont I have a... AMD IS THE ONE!
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One must take in consideration the experiences of each adventurer, their upbringing and divine beliefs. As Aeon mentioned, if a drow exposes their deity and that deity is allied with your own, there is no reason why one would not be willing to make friends with that PC or NPC for that matter. The concept of religion as in RL should be considered strongly in RP. As each religion of the RL world has its own alliances and/or enemies as would religions in Layonara. Another thread analyzed the ideaology of religious hatred; and such would make a great deal clarity. Many devout followers of the deity would be commiting, in a way, a blasphemous act to disdain a follower of an allied deity. RPing religion should be considered greatly when analyzing other characters actions; yes I see many people suspicious of the Drow, it is an obvious occurence considering the majority of them are devious and malicious. However, if you see a drow waving a flag of A'zatta and you are a follower of an allied deity, you may want to think differently about what actions you take with this Drow in RP; no character wants their patron to turn their head because of blasphemy.
Furthermore, the concept of drow in Hlint. We must remember that Hlint's population IS 10% DROW. These drow have earned their right to stay within the city walls. Beastmen have not, simply put. Though they may be a bit mistrusted, when 1/10 of a cities population is a certain race, characters should not go around telling other characters how to act. The law of Hlint has not changed; if your name is not Garnet, you have no right to tell someone what to do. I cannot express how annoyed I can sometimes get when I am told how to RP my own character. Now understandably, drow are most likely to be mistrusted by a newcomer to the town of Hlint, however, those who have been in the city for some time know should know the laws and know of the drow population residing in the town.
Just adding my observations....Mostly some annoyances with being told how to play my own character, that was my rant :-P.
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Allorian - 9/25/2006 4:36 PM
One must take in consideration the experiences of each adventurer, their upbringing and divine beliefs. As Aeon mentioned, if a drow exposes their deity and that deity is allied with your own, there is no reason why one would not be willing to make friends with that PC or NPC for that matter.
Why should a god's feelings toward another god translate into automatic behavior in that god's worshipers? You are suggesting that Jennara should dislike Freldo for no other reason than because Rofirein dislikes Ilsare. Where is the justice in that? You are suggesting that a follower of Aeridin, sworn to protect and preserve life, should never ever heal a Shadonite who is bleeding to death, since Aeridin and Shadon are enemies. Which is more important, preserving life or poking Shadon in the eye?
You also seem to be suggesting that racial tensions should be ignored, or at least severely minimized, in favor of religious tensions. Racial tensions are an important part of the roleplay. Playing a Drow in Layonara should be similar to playing an Arab in a Medieval England game world. No matter how good the Arab is, a lot of Englishmen are going to hate him because of his race. He may have a few supporters in the church if he has converted to Christianity, but that won't make everyone automatically love him. The vast majority of people will still judge him by his race. So it is with Drow.
We must remember that Hlint's population IS 10% DROW.
This is entirely wrong. Look at this LORE page (http://nwn.layonara.com/Hlint). Elves are only 5% of the population. Drow would fall into that category, and probably don't make up a very noticeable chunk of that 5%. Starting from the false concept of 10% Drow population in Hlint negates the rest of your paragraph.
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Yes, the poor farmers would probably run away. But then... I doubt the guards would allow the drow to stay in the town, spreading fear among everyone.
Check lore: http://nwn.layonara.com/Hlint
The drow isn't 10% of the population if you want to trust that page. I think you are mixing the terms "Player Controlled Population" and "Real Population".
Disclimer: I'm in no way trying to tell how people should play drow or how non-drow people should react. I understand the fact that the adventuring people are already the "very few ones" and that the tolerance against drow is probably much higher than the rest of the population. I actually play a quite drow (or generally, "bad people") friendly character. But, say that I had 5 characters. I would surely make 4 of them to "distrust/hate drow"-types.
Edit: Woops... Too slow... ;)
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The argument of "Oh, the battle-hardened Drow would mop up any little farmers" is ridiculous for the idea of a Good Drow. Or even any Drow that doesn't want to be promptly fried to a crisp, tracked to his Bindstone, and repeatedly slaughtered until the Soul Mother swallowed him whole.
Sure, there are Drow that have non-Drow friends. Even powerful friends.
But even if Farmer John shoved a pitchfork through Jimmy the Drow's chest, you can't say Farmer John is in the wrong. Farmer John, like every other Hlintite who could hold a weapon, has fought in the innumerable attacks by the Drow on Hlint. Drow are the ENEMY. Drow are MUDEROUS AND EVIL.
Just because you can't see Farmer John, Brewer Steve, and Seamstress Mildred, because of the limitations of NWN, doesn't mean they're not still there to grab thier torches and pitchforks against a threat to thier lives, families, and homes.
Most commoners won't know any more about Az'atta than Baraeon Ca'Duz. Sure, there are tales, but the idea of a GOOD Drow? Preposterous. Bedtime stories, even more than those about Storold besting armies of undead and defeating a Lich in single combat.
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I do not even know where to start other than by saying, wow.
Anyway, to not get into a flame fest (which seems to have alraedy started) my appolgies about the 10% drow figure; I had heard a World Leader speaking of Hlint's population and misread the dwarf figure (horrible vision, I am sorry).
Now to the deity statement. Chracters who have taken vows to uphold their deities values, (heal the sick, aid the weak, etc.) should follow the oaths that they have obliged. This would encompass healing ANY who are in need if that is their oath. You heavily misinterperetted what I was attempting to say. I am backing the virtue of deity relations. The only terms I can put this in is well (sorry if I offend), Catholics, protestants and jews have the same basic beliefs, therefore those who follow that belief have a common connection, no matter their race (in more recent times). Christianity is also a convert religion, which activily seeks out and attempts to convert others to their cause. This doctrine has provided missionaries with the freedom to aid any who are in need, no matter their background (religious, criminal etc.). Now what I am saying is, although one's race may be different or minor religious differences, once one discover's another's religion, common ground is formed. No, one does not have to trust the other, however in certain doctrine this trust is highly regarded (love thine neighbor).
If that was not a good enough example, another would be in the ancient times.
Playing a Drow in Layonara should be similar to playing an Arab in a Medieval England game world.
Yes, playing a drow would be a such, but how about if we take into consideration that Arab is a second generation Catholic. He would be treated MUCH differently than an islamic arab, turk or persian. The fact is yes, racial relations are indeed a great factor in roleplaying, but I am backing what AeonBlues is stating.
I don't know man. There are goblin PCs. The reason you can kill a goblin that comes into hint and get away with it, is because the NPC goblins that come into Hint have short shwords equipped, and they are using them too! They start attacking any person or ox until they are put down. If a unarmed goblin messanger came into town, delivering a message from the goblin leader, he would not be killed. Just forced to leave after delivering said message.
It seems to elude everyone in this discussion that there are 3 drow gods in the patheon. Ca'Duz, Vierdri'ra, and Az'atta. One of these gods is good aligned, enemies with all the evil underdark gods, and on good terms with most of the good ones. She is the shining example to all Drow that they can turn from evil, betray their masters, and live a life of good.
We sometimes forget living in a westernized country how strong religious values actually are. In a medieval setting (such as Layonara) wouldn't religion be so as well? Take this into consideration before you respond. The gods are aligned with each other for specific reasons, and their followers should follow their dogmas.
Furthermore I would like to post this as well. (I do not know how to link on this forum, tried url, link, hyperlink etc.) http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23626&posts=28&start=1
Yes, ultimately my argument comes down to how a person wants to RP their character. However, these posts are for all those people out their who get tells asking why, based on your race, are you communicating with a drow?
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Stephen_Zuckerman - 9/24/2006 8:21 PM
One out of ten million is a closer estimate, Aeon. As far as your average commoner knows, Drow ARE all evil monsters.
Yes.
We are not forgetting religious values, nor trying to strictly speak for all characters, nor have I really seen any example of a flamefest, though some posting styles simply don't get on with others.
The attitude towards drow is simply severely underestimated and overdefended. It is not our opinion, it is a fact of Layonara, of the opinion of the MAJORITY of the populace, that has been posted many times and by many people, and only defended by those who want to defend their specific character interactions and justify the whole with them, which does not apply.
Saying, well, attacking someone in a civilized society while they're just standing there is against the law!
For one, Hlint is not really civilized. This is shown by how the drow generally does sit there minding his own business, without anyone even trying to do anything anymore. In any civilized town or city, it is the drow who are not welcome and this is forgotten over and over again.
It's not "eluding everyone posting" that there is a good drow goddess. We're not idiots. We're just repeatedly restating (and clarifying for those who do not understand) the official view of the NPC populace and, while leaving the specifics of PC interactions up to the individual players, encouraging acknowledgement of that when forming character attitudes and roleplaying.
I'm finally bailing on this thread and covering my eyes and loudly singing to avoid seeing any new posts :)
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Allorian - 9/25/2006 6:15 PM
Anyway, to not get into a flame fest (which seems to have alraedy started) my appolgies about the 10% drow figure; I had heard a World Leader speaking of Hlint's population and misread the dwarf figure (horrible vision, I am sorry).
Don't worry about it. I don't think anyone is trying to flame you.
Now what I am saying is, although one's race may be different or minor religious differences, once one discover's another's religion, common ground is formed. No, one does not have to trust the other, however in certain doctrine this trust is highly regarded (love thine neighbor).
I think you are missing two important ideas.
First, consider your real-world religious example. People of the same or similar faith may very well find common ground with each other rather easily. Still, racial differences and prejudices have and do often overcome religious similarities. People who claim to be of a certain religion will attack others of that exact same religion for nothing more than racial differences. Religion does not automatically trump race, not even in the Middle Ages. In fact, religious agreement alone sometimes means nothing. During one of the Crusades, crusaders from Western Europe stopped in Constantinople on their way to the Holy Land, noticed their Greek, Christian allies in the city had a lot of good stuff, and decided to attack those allies and plunder the city rather than go to all the trouble to fight Muslims. Even among the most religious, there is more than religion being considered.
Second, Drow are known to be insidious and deceptive. How can a character be sure that Drow wearing the symbol of Az'atta is really a follower of Az'atta, and not simply disguised to hide his true intentions? Paranoia? Maybe. Maybe even justifiable paranoia.
Yes, playing a drow would be a such, but how about if we take into consideration that Arab is a second generation Catholic. He would be treated MUCH differently than an islamic arab, turk or persian.
But ONLY by those who really knew the second-generation Arab. Consider the second-generation Chinese on the west coast of America during the 1800's. Were they actually treated that much better than new arrivals from China?
The gods are aligned with each other for specific reasons, and their followers should follow their dogmas.
The gods' attitudes towards each other are beyond the understanding of the mortal characters. Some of the reasons could probably be guessed, but others... *shrug* Who knows? Do you think characters aren't playing their religions correctly? Do you think a Katian and a Dorandite should never be friends, since Katia is unfriendly toward Dorand? Would such a friendship be against Katia's dogma? Should a Goranite Gnome who had survived an attack by Drow on his village automatically befriend Az'attan Drow just because Goran and Az'atta are allies? Would it be against Goran's dogma if the Gnome avoided and distrusted all Az'attans?
However, these posts are for all those people out their who get tells asking why, based on your race, are you communicating with a drow?
Every character should have a reason. If your character accepts or rejects people according to their religions and cares nothing for race, perhaps he's a bit of a fanatic, but that is his reason.
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I never once mentioned that religion should be the only cause of tension or acceptence. However, for some religion should be a means. Also, I could go more in depth about historical fallacies and points, however such would detract from the purpose of the thread.
I will quote myself for my response to the inquery about how others should reat each other... I simply write that I am tired of being told how to RP and these are my reasons why my character acts the way he does.
I know that Drow are hated; I have a drow as well and I expect others to mistrust his presence. Stephen is right in saying that the majority of the populace is uneducated and would not know the difference between a good and evil drow. Yes, when I play I expect to ragged on as a drow. And I am not saying everyone be nice to the drow. I guess I am just going to have to beat what I am saying so I no longer have to post:
My past two posts are in regards to mean being frustrated with people sending me tells in game about how to play my character.
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Hey, I love how Raine's played, personally. Even with all my knowledge as a player, I had NO clues that he was a Drow until I spoke with you OOC. *Chuckles.* You give no hints that your character's a Drow, so... Bada-bing, bada-boom.
Many characters have specific RP reasons for such-and-such. However, many of those are based on misinformation... Such as the quoted figure of 10% Drow for Hlint's populace. (Just for an example.)
The problem isn't those who have RP reasons to do whatever. It's not even, so much, those whose reasons are misinformed.
It's those who don't put thought into it, or simply refuse to accept that people aren't always nice to you just because you're a PC.
Then again, those sort probably aren't reading this thread.
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Haha. Yes, I stated some misinformation earlier, I actually happy that I was corrected, but I could have sworn seeing it on Hlint's page after being told. *shrugs* But, Raine really isn't the problem, its my rogue... Raine is trying to keep his identity covered up; he was badly beaten by witchhunters. But in any case, I agree with you in all cases, misinformation is probably a key aspect in bad RPs.
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Allorian - 9/25/2006 8:47 PM
I guess I am just going to have to beat what I am saying so I no longer have to post:
I'm not trying to upset you. I'm trying to understand what you are saying. I can see by your last statement that you were attempting to explain your own character's actions, but your previous posts looked to me like generalizations regarding the entire interaction between Drow and others.
There were also some absolutes that struck me as odd, such as:
if a drow exposes their deity and that deity is allied with your own, there is no reason why one would not be willing to make friends with that PC or NPC for that matter.
When I read that, it seems very clearly to state that the religion of a given Drow should be the only factor in deciding whether or not to befriend that Drow. That's what "no reason" means to me in that sentence; "IF Drow's deity = 'Allied' THEN Friends." Combined with what appeared to me to be a generalization rather than your particular approach with your character, I hope you can understand why I misunderstood.
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I meant that in a way to say why my own character is friendly toward the few drow that he communicates, not a generalization. The setence was a bit vague, that was my fault. I type quick alot and hate to proof read.
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I like a few points that have been illustrated:
Stephen mentioned the rarity of good drow would be something like 1 in a million+. I think think thats right on the money. Drizzt wouldn't be special if he had dozens of other good Drow buddies in Forgotten Realms. Likewise Az'atta wouldn't shine like a beacon on Layo if there were so many others doing the same deeds as her. The reason these characters are heroes or Gods is becuase they are extremely rare. On Layo I find it the opposite. Other than my drow or Hoodlums, I've only ever met one other PC 2years ago that played CN. It feel that to be rather disappointing.
Secondly Stephen also mentioned that how do PC's really know what an Az'atta symbol is or who a Lucinite is...etc. I think many of us metagame too often by claiming our characters know all deities, their symbols, leaders, alignment etc. I doubt in reality I could tell you all about aspects of christianity or buddism, Islam..etc.
Gulnyr brought up a good point about Drow using their talents of deception to veil themselves as clerics of Az'atta..etc. That would be the exact sort of thing Drow would do. Yet we easily accept them at face value (gonna make a personal note to try that tactic one day).
At the end of the day I'm glad we've put a stop on allowing sub-classes at this point in time. I think all Drow should be treated as evil, and played as CN. Then only through a series of rigourous CDq's should they be considered for alignemnt shift and alternate Deities.
NB: this is only my opinion.
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Good points and I agree. But as players we are restricted to certain alignments considering we are all technically heroes (few exceptions). And playing a TN drow who masks his identity and yearns to be a normal elf brings me enjoyment :-D.
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I wish we could all sit down in a mediated discussion. The forum thing only goes so far.
We have identified that he drow are a monster race. The vast and overwhelming number of drow on Layo are evil.
I think we can all agree on this.
Having a drow walk into town is at least as bad as having an ogre or half gaint, whemic, goblin, or a tiefling show up in town.
I would like to just point out at this time, that all we have to do about this, is write into the lore that merchants from just about all races travel the lands and interact in cities and villages. They have to obey the same rules that everyone else does, but these traveling merchants of exotic goods exist and create level of diversity that makes our game world a fun and interesting place to RP. Then assume heroes of all races also and exist... and you end up basically where we are today.
If you write this into the lore, then boom, individual of any race are occasionally seen, and probably not pitchforked. They would be watched and most likely searched with great scrutiny. While we are making Layo into a perfectly realistic fantasy setting, please inform the deer that they are acting very OOC to any deer I have ever seen. I think most deer would run from anyone clunking down the road in full plate armor. I guess my point with that, is there has to be a certain margin of realism that is sacrificed to the fact that we are enjoying a computer game world.
There is the idea that the drow would use the image of Az'atta or just pretending to be good, to spy on cities and prepare for an invasion. Well you know, drows are wizards more then any other class. They love magic. So they could be the little kitty. They could be the courier hawk. They could be invisible. There are a lot of possibilities that would allow dark elves to spy, and nothing anyone does will ever stop the drow from getting the information that they want. They could hire a halfling merc to gather the information for them.
Dark Elves enjoy magic, especially releasing its power. They also love sculptures or other crafted items (especially well-made lethal weapons). They also admire physical beauty; Dark Elves are proud of their physique and do not hesitate to show it. This has also led to the custom of slaying all newborns with physical deficiencies." *Evil Grin* I left that last part in just to be fair and objective
So, it seems to be a reasonable concept that there are some drow merchants wandering the surface, with a reputation for selling the most well made weapons and enchantments that gold can buy.
Let me ask you all a question.
Does having drow PCs in public places take the joy of playing on Layo away from you as a player?
I am loving this tread by the way, it has been a whirlwind of chaos from the get go.
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To answer bluntly I would say yes. And that came from the manner they have addressed my PC or the way people intereact with them.
Then again I have met some Drow who I've had some of the best RP sessions ever.
Actually one of my all time favourite sessions was when Storm worked with my char Ramanon to break the marriage between Veldrin and Lal. But that was a troubled drow played extremely well.
Anyway I can go on about it but this is starting to get repetitive. We have an even split of Drow do-gooders and ones that feel they should be played as monsters.
You know my opinion so I'll leave it at that.
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Evil drows disgused as one of Azatta? Evil drows see other races as lesser and Azatta and her followers as traitors... It might be smart, but also under their dignity.
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AeonBlues - 9/26/2006 3:33 AM
I would like to just point out at this time, that all we have to do about this, is write into the lore that merchants from just about all races travel the lands and interact in cities and villages. They have to obey the same rules that everyone else does, but these traveling merchants of exotic goods exist and create level of diversity that makes our game world a fun and interesting place to RP. Then assume heroes of all races also and exist... and you end up basically where we are today.
Please tell me if I misunderstand. Are you suggesting a change to the history and handbook to support the current status rather than a change by the players to roleplay the history as it stands?
While we are making Layo into a perfectly realistic fantasy setting, please inform the deer that they are acting very OOC to any deer I have ever seen. I think most deer would run from anyone clunking down the road in full plate armor.
They used to run. When the new system was put in so that Rangers and Druids could calm several animals at once, the deer got a little wonky. *shrug*
I guess my point with that, is there has to be a certain margin of realism that is sacrificed to the fact that we are enjoying a computer game world.
Of course, but changing the history and handbook has nothing to do with the limitations put on us by the game engine. Those are external to the game engine, and should be used as tools for proper roleplaying within the game engine. Altering the background to match our roleplaying, in my opinion, would be admitting that we are too pitiful to roleplay according to the history and conditions as they are written. I believe we are a good enough group of roleplayers to read the history and the handbook and play within those guidelines.
So [the Drow] could be the little kitty. They could be the courier hawk. They could be invisible. There are a lot of possibilities that would allow dark elves to spy, and nothing anyone does will ever stop the drow from getting the information that they want. They could hire a halfling merc to gather the information for them.
I don't think anyone suggested that the Az'atta disguise was the best way to get the information, or that there weren't other ways. I would argue that cats and birds can't open doors or gates (regardless of NWN allowing it and bad RPers doing it), and doors seemingly opening and closing on their own (because of invisible people) could attract unwanted attention. But you are right - if they want info, they can get it. Look back a page at Ed's comment about PCs taking Drow spies on a tour of Mistone. Dumb enemies are the best enemies. It's amazing Drow don't control the surface with all the Drow-hugging going on.
Does having drow PCs in public places take the joy of playing on Layo away from you as a player?
Only because of metagaming. Any metagaming bugs me. It is irritating when the player of a Drow, knowing Drow are hated and feared and shunned, has his Drow character walking around town openly, doing all the things a regular Elf would do as if Drow were not hated and feared and shunned. As you said, we have to allow for the limitations of the game. Since the game can't treat Drow like Drow, the players need to suck it up and make their Drow behave like Drow.
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Perhaps the Drow shows his face out of Arrogance and the belief that they should be treated as equals? Before Raine visited the Temple of Aragen and had his 'realization', he was an arrogant drow who openly held verbal fights with others around Hlint; that was until Garnet told him to leave town nicely (afterward he found himself lost and decided to seek the guidence of Ozy and Aragen). Now he walks with a hood and disguises his appearance, many people no longer know his identity (minus a few who he's RP'd with for quite some time).
Only because of metagaming. Any metagaming bugs me. It is irritating when the player of a Drow, knowing Drow are hated and feared and shunned, has his Drow character walking around town openly, doing all the things a regular Elf would do as if Drow were not hated and feared and shunned.
I do not think a drow walking uncovered is metagaming. A young good drow new to the surface world would most likely be ignorant to the rules of the land. For instance, I RP'ed my Drow getting beaten savagely by withchunters for walking the surface uncovered. However I guess this can be disputed. But I guess if a drow is walking around openly, they should be prepared to deal with the consequences, ex; a DM taking control of a guard and removing the dark elf from the town. If you choose to play arrogance, then you choose to except the consequences. (Gul, I'm sure you remember the encounter between Jennara and Raine). However, I agree totally that drow players should not openly attempt to purchase goods from merchants or try to receive quests from good aligned PC's uncovered. But I must also point out that mot characters do not receive a helm until near level three or four. This could cause a dilema. Also I would like to touch on the point of beastmen walking around in Hlint. Should no tthy be treated equal to drow? Considering Ogres frequently raid the trade lanes between Hlint and Llast (or so it is told, correct me if I am wrong once more) I highly doubt they will be warmly accepted as well. But there really is not means to cover up an Ogre or Half Giant...
Just some inqueries and statements to add to the discussion... (I like to debate; actually I like to debate alot and both sides of arguements at that :-) )
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Allorian - 9/26/2006 6:10 PM
Gul, I'm sure you remember the encounter between Jennara and Raine.
I do. Jennara was looking out for the welfare of the citizens of Hlint. She didn't want to see a panic among the people, and a Drow could easily cause a panic. She thinks a Drow who is truly good and courteous would cover himself to prevent trouble for others.
Also I would like to touch on the point of beastmen walking around in Hlint. Should no tthy be treated equal to drow? Considering Ogres frequently raid the trade lanes between Hlint and Llast (or so it is told, correct me if I am wrong once more) I highly doubt they will be warmly accepted as well. But there really is not means to cover up an Ogre or Half Giant...
In most cases, they should be treated poorly. I think Wemics might be odd enough to create enough curiosity to overcome fear... sometimes.
Half Ogres and Half Giants would have it rough, but they are more likely to be exploited for their strength, and may be treated somewhat like a cross between an ox and a pet dog. They still might not be able to deal with merchants or rent a room in the inn.
Orcs and Goblins should be treated about the same as Drow. Half Orcs probably aren't very popular with most people, but they may be able to cover up and pass as a bulky Human.
Drow are really the worst of the worst, though. I bet even Giants and Orcs tell their children scary stories about Drow.
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Gulnyr - 9/26/2006 2:53 PM
AeonBlues - 9/26/2006 3:33 AM
I would like to just point out at this time, that all we have to do about this, is write into the lore that merchants from just about all races travel the lands and interact in cities and villages. They have to obey the same rules that everyone else does, but these traveling merchants of exotic goods exist and create level of diversity that makes our game world a fun and interesting place to RP. Then assume heroes of all races also and exist... and you end up basically where we are today.
Please tell me if I misunderstand. Are you suggesting a change to the history and handbook to support the current status rather than a change by the players to roleplay the history as it stands?
Yes, we as players can to a certain extent write the history and story of Layonra. When ever someone writes up a biography of a new character, their story has to fall in line with lore, or their story is incorporated into lore Effectively changing the history. When a change to the story is approved by the lore team, the world becomes a richer and more colorful place.
The extreme desire I am reading from this thread, is that all drow disguise them selves, hide in the shadows, never interact with other PCs, and be denied access to merchants and craft halls. Of course, most the players complaining about the drow PCs and calling us bad roll players, are the same ones that never interact with drow PCs in the first place.
And YES, I think that if the game mechanics does not match the story, we should alter the story just a tad so that we have a smooth plot that we can all enjoy and work with.
Also, I think it was a mistake to put Az'atta in the pantheon, without also building some story around Az'atta worshipers that are found on the surface. Oh wait, as a cleric of Az'atta that would be my character's job right?
The fact that there is a good drow goddess makes this whole issue very complex.
It would be a lot easier to RP a drow worshiper of Az'atta if there was more stories of Az'atta worshipers to reference. This would be another positive way we could enrich our game world without making it impossible to play a drow and interact with other PCs.
Cym's biggest goal in life, though I know it is not a very realistic one, is to make everyone on the surface world know that if you need help, you should ask the church of Az'ata. Also to make every dark elf in the under dark know that it is possible to betray their masters and change the way they live their life. That there is a better life waiting for them on the surface.
The bottom line here is, how can you accuse any drow PC of bad roll play, when everyone has a different opinion of how a drow would be perceived?
Did everyone stop to think that dark elf worshipers of Az'atta should RP a bit of denile about being a drow? Az'atta is a goddess of Love, so worshipers of Az'atta would be much more likely to think of them selves as worshipers of Az'atta then to think of them selves as Drow. Which does infarct represent a completely different culture and system of values.
Really, it seems like a very small % of players are disgruntled with how Drow are perceived. So yah, stating that merchants of all races travel and sell their goods, is both believable and is a quick and simple fix. I have never read in the handbook or lore, that commoners will raise arms and attack a lone drow in their town that is not attacking anyone. Everyone in this thread seems to think that any drow would get killed on site. So, since about 80% of drow PCs worship a Good Dark Elf Goddess, I think we can come up with a more clever fix to these issues then making dark elf worshipers of Az'atta an unplayable character theme.
AeonBlues
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The extreme desire I am reading from this thread, is that all drow disguise them selves, hide in the shadows, never interact with other PCs, and be denied access to merchants and craft halls. Of course, most the players complaining about the drow PCs and calling us bad roll players, are the same ones that never interact with drow PCs in the first place.
There could be a several good reasons for this. One is that the people who feel drow are RP'd poorly are the same people who play characters that would kill a drow if they spotted them. They DO NOT WANT to interact with a drow because the very fact that they are talking to one in the open contridicts their character. They should be killing or scaring away that drow, not discussing their differences.
So, since about 80% of drow PCs worship a Good Dark Elf Goddess, I think we can come up with a more clever fix to these issues then making dark elf worshipers of Az'atta an unplayable character theme.
80% of drow PCs worship Az'atta because they cannot be evil, and most people want to play that "outcast" from the drow society. After all, Drizzt was cool. Most of us can admit that. But Drizzt was a freak, and a freakish freak. He is, by no means, a percentage of the drow population. He is not representative of them. Just like the "good" drow of Layonara are NOT representative of the drow population.
The drow helped serve Bloodstone. The drow have raided Port Hamphire, Hlint, Spellgard, and that is to name a few. Milara, one of the most feared and evil people in Layonara is a drow. These drow ARE representative of the drow population. Why? because this is what most drow are like. They are not the good guys. They are like devils, demons, beasts, giants, orcs, goblins, and the monsters that adventurers go out and hunt all the time. They are the villains. No one ever asks the monsters taht get slaughtered every day "Are you a good one or a bad one?" (yes this has been asked of me when I played a drow awhile back). Instead, they are killed on sight. So why would a race a PC goblin, orc, drow, half-giant, or half-ogre recieve a different treatment?
The answer is that people know better. These are players. They can't be evil, because you can't play evil from the start. You can't PvP them, so what are you left with doing? Many just call it quits and embrace them openly.
So what would I suggest in this drawn-out debate that doesn't change the rules of the game? Sadly, there is very little that can be done. Although the fact that less drow are being approved is good. That means that we have less non-evil drow flooding the world and watering down an alrighty watered-down character idea.
Instead, the only thing I can really say is to try and pt yourself into the mindset of your character. You're whole life everyone has told you that drow are evil. They are in that group with demons, the "Kill on sight" class of creatures. So what are you going to do? Really, it only makes sense that you would, at the very least avoid or make life difficult for them. And Drow PCs, the way to solve this problem on your end is to not hide behind the PvP rule and metagame. If they threaten you with violence, RP it with dicebags or request PvP, or leave. Don't stand their and say "No, I am not evil. You cannot hurt me." Really, that just frustrates everyone.
And that's all of my thoughts and ideas. On a side note, I am impressed with this thread, and I do think it has set a record for longest potentially heated subject thread without being frozen. Good job everyone!
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Ne'er - 9/26/2006 4:44 PM
Instead, the only thing I can really say is to try and pt yourself into the mindset of your character. You're whole life everyone has told you that drow are evil. They are in that group with demons, the "Kill on sight" class of creatures. So what are you going to do? Really, it only makes sense that you would, at the very least avoid or make life difficult for them. And Drow PCs, the way to solve this problem on your end is to not hide behind the PvP rule and metagame. If they threaten you with violence, RP it with dicebags or request PvP, or leave. Don't stand their and say "No, I am not evil. You cannot hurt me." Really, that just frustrates everyone.
I feel a bit insulted by this. I fully understand that this frustration does exist because Players do this.
I do not RP my character that way. My character does not respond to threats by running away. Sorry, but that is not the metal that a hero is made of. Secondly, if someone starts attacking him, he will do one of two things. Fight back, or cast a spell. Darkness, The domain sanctuary power, or Greater Sanctuary are all effective means of escape.
You want to talk about bad RP, lets talk about all the Players that ignore the fact that they are confronted with a persuade check of 21 to 40 in response to their character pulling out a sword.
AeonBlues
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I did not mean to insult you. This is in no way directed at your character, because I have not once RP'd with you so to make claims about your personal RP would be ignorant of me. The things that you present as your means of 'fighting back' are perfectly viable, and I applaud that.
However, as far as persuade checks go there are situational modifiers to checks like that. If you try and say something believable, okay, a simple DC works. HOWEVER, if you are trying to convince someone that a drow is good, well, the DC is going to be VERY high. As I said before, they are categorized with demonsand devils in the evil group. As in, they are all mean and nasty and only the darkest people affiliate themselves with it. Someone who has had this drilled into their head their entire life is not likely to accept this, especially if it is coming from a said creature. If I were to watch such an encounter, I would set the Persuade DC very high, quite likely higher than 40. After all, why should any one belief the devil when they know better through education?
And please, remember that this thread is not targeted at you Aeon. As I said, I do not know you as a player or as a character, so to make judgements about how you play would be foolish on my part. But I am afraid that you, playing a drow PC (regardless of how you play it) are going to get grouped in with the other drow players. And I know not all are bad RPers. However, I have noticed trends, and I felt they needed to be pointed out.
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Ok, taking a step back here. I know this is not about me. Players were sending me tells stating that this is not about me before I jumped into this discussion. I am learning from it though, and I feel it is my responsibility as a player to play my character the way a dark elf cleric of Az'atta should be played.
Off hand, I do not know of any other dark elf cleric's of Az'atta. My character has had almost no guidance from his church. Myself as a player has had very little guidance on how to play a dark elf cleric of Az'atta on Layo. This has put me in the position of feeling that it is my responsibility as a player, and Cymeran's responsibility as a cleric, to define what a dark elf worshiper of Az'atta is suppose to be. This is why I have become so involved with this discussion. At first I was staying out of this thread, but gah, Az'atta is being ignored.
I am frustrated because I am reading between the lines, and seeing that Az'atta has no real place on this game world. It is like the very concept of a good dark elf is so backwards, and ridiculous, there has to be one in the pantheon. That a dozen or so that do exist, has a severe negative impact on this game world.
Aeon
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Polak76 - 9/25/2006 9:30 PM
At the end of the day I'm glad we've put a stop on allowing sub-classes at this point in time. I think all Drow should be treated as evil, and played as CN. Then only through a series of rigourous CDq's should they be considered for alignemnt shift and alternate Deities.
NB: this is only my opinion.
TN should be allowed too. One step removed from their dieties is more than ok. After all if it were CN only, there would be NO clerics of Ca'Duz.
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AeonBlues - 9/26/2006 9:59 PM
My character has had almost no guidance from his church. Myself as a player has had very little guidance on how to play a dark elf cleric of Az'atta on Layo. This has put me in the position of feeling that it is my responsibility as a player, and Cymeran's responsibility as a cleric, to define what a dark elf worshiper of Az'atta is suppose to be.
That can be tough. I've felt the same way with Jennara at times, odd as that may seem.
This is why I have become so involved with this discussion. At first I was staying out of this thread, but gah, Az'atta is being ignored.
I can assure you I have not been ignoring Az'atta in my posts. It's more that I don't think most people care about the Drow's religion. It is my position that the 99%+ of people who are not adventurers and not directly represented in-game don't care that a Drow is wearing the symbol of Az'atta. The lowly and uneducated see a Drow and are afraid. Their villages and towns have been attacked by Drow. They are prejudiced and it will take a lot of hard work to change that, if it can be changed at all. An obvious Drow in a town is a disturbance whether a DM has an NPC react or not.
I don't speak with an official voice, but I imagine that most villagers might say prayers to a handful of gods, and not care much about the others. Prunilla will get prayers from the farmers, craftsmen will toss a few prayers to Dorand, anyone with things to sell might pray to Deliar now and then, young lovers might pray to Ilsare, sailors could make offerings to Mist for their own safety, and the sick might pray to Aeridin if the village healer can't help much. Most of the other gods probably wouldn't get a lot of attention. Sure, there could be a few who have a special prayer for one of the other gods now and then, but most people aren't going to dwell on the law and justice of Rofirein or how much Aragen knows. Even town guards and militia aren't likely to think much about Vorax until they actually have to fight.
Now, on top of that, if these common folk know anything of Az'atta at all, it is likely that she is a Drow goddess. That's pretty much the stopper for most people right there. "Drow? Tha's all I gorta know." Even if they are open-minded enough to consider further, most people probably don't think they need a whole lot of redemption. If they wrong their neighbor, they don't pray to Az'atta, they go next door and apologize and it's all over and behind them. Is there more to Az'atta than that? Of course, but most citizens of Layonara really and truly do not want the help of a Drow, and they don't want to help that Drow. They are terrified of Drow. They probably believe that any Drow offering to help is planning some sort of trick, and they certainly don't want to assist in that devious plan somehow.
I know that isn't exactly in line with the LORE page about Az'atta, since her Clerics are to be clearly labeled so people can find them to ask for aid. Of course, it doesn't say the Clerics are Drow, but that seems like a fair possibility. I can see how you would be frustrated by this sort of anti-Drow reaction alongside that dogma.
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"I do not RP my character that way. My character does not respond to threats by running away. Sorry, but that is not the metal that a hero is made of. "
My response to this is simply that your character is not a hero...yet. We all would like to hve our characters be hero's but that title must be earned. So if you wish to act in any specific manner you'll be treated accordingly I would hope. I've played many PC's, most of them hated. I love the arguments and the reactions. I even have a Drow Cleric of Vierdri'ira (CN) but I keep her well hidden or invisible. My only interactions have usually lead to arguments or me fleeing. Thats what makes her fantastic to play.
"I am frustrated because I am reading between the lines, and seeing that Az'atta has no real place on this game world. It is like the very concept of a good dark elf is so backwards, and ridiculous, there has to be one in the pantheon. That a dozen or so that do exist, has a severe negative impact on this game world."
Actually I really like that Deity, and Az'atta being a drow Goddess is a metaphor for love, compassion and most of all redemption. She is not a beacon for summoning all Drow. I've played two characters who followed Az'atta and I think she definately has an important role on Layo...lets not overlook that. Secondly the concept is not backwards. It's accented! As we've mentioned, Drizzt is special because of how rare he is. So in the token is Az'atta.
Anyway I'd love my Drow Priestess to cross your path. I dont think we've ever met before but I can't even begin to imagine how I'll RP it. Could be some fireworks!!
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Polak76 - 9/25/2006 9:30 PM
At the end of the day I'm glad we've put a stop on allowing sub-classes at this point in time. I think all Drow should be treated as evil, and played as CN. Then only through a series of rigourous CDq's should they be considered for alignemnt shift and alternate Deities.
NB: this is only my opinion.
All drow should be treated as evil and played as CN...?
I'm probably not reading that as you intended.
Drizzlin - 9/26/2006 8:53 PM
TN should be allowed too. One step removed from their dieties is more than ok. After all if it were CN only, there would be NO clerics of Ca'Duz.
TN is not allowed for a cleric of any CE god. TN is two steps away from CE, one step on the good axis and one step on the law axis.
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Allorian - 9/26/2006 4:10 PM
I do not think a drow walking uncovered is metagaming. A young good drow new to the surface world would most likely be ignorant to the rules of the land.
The drow make frequent raids on the surface and are well aware of how they are percieved there and they percieve surfacers especially surface elves with equal enimity
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Talan
What I meant by that is a non-drow PC should view a Drow as being evil until proven good.
While if one plays a Drow Character they should start as CN and work their way towards good or evil.
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I"m missing why they should be CN. In offering the premise that requirements/hurdles should be in place for those players wishing to play drow, contributors to this thread have pointed to the rules for CN characters as an example. If there are any further alignment restrictions it should be that a drow PC must begin non-good (LN, N, CN - and the latter only if they meet the CN requirement too). And if the player wants them to become good, they must establish it through excellent roleplay and a well written development thread, all culminating in a cdq for the alignment shift to good.
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I didn't contribute to this thread previously because I reject the notion that we have a "drow problem".
As Miltonyorkcastle has said in other threads where we've discussed and debated issues, sometimes passionately as has been done here - "It's all about growth". There are a lot of good ideas here about how we can keep the drow a playable sub-race for skilled roleplayers who are willing to accept the challenge of roleplaying a member of the world's most hated race. This thread could go on and on, ad nauseam, but I'm hoping that soon we can begin condensing this into something constructive.
One possiblity to include - we can come up with a set of guidelines/considerations that all players submitting drow characters must certify that they have read and understand. This would be along the lines of the statements I have seen players required to make in submitting clerics.
Well, it's late here and I'm weary, so I'll stop while I'm ahead lest this post devolve into incoherent babbling. =P
But rest assured, there will be more to come from this Layo member. ;)
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“My response to this is simply that your character is not a hero...yet. “
*Big Grins* He is working vary hard at it. In his own mind he is a hero. And who ever became a hero without acting like one in the first place?
“She is not a beacon for summoning all Drow. “
I totally agree.
But imagine that a drow worshiper of Az'atta believed very strongly, I dare say with faith. Faith that one by one a few drow here and there would trickle out, one by one, they start walking the path of Az'atta. Over many generations, thousands of years, a few become hundreds, hundreds become thousands, and thousands become millions.
Again, this will never happen in my RL life time, or my character's virtual one. So, yes I realize that Az'atta is not the beacon of light to all drow. In my opinion, to be a religious fanatic, implies that you are not just capable of believing in the impossible, you will dedicate your life to making the impossible happen in somone elses life time.
So say this religious fanatic is respected. Through good RP discussions, his view becomes not just his view, but the views of others. Now we have something stronger then any army. We have an idea. Idea's shape our world, not generals. Generals are but pawns to the powerful idea that motivates them.
Again I challenge the notion that villagers would not recognize the symbol of Az'atta. If there is a symbol that will always take you in. Will always help you when you are sick or deprived. Will always be there to protect you. Now, who is going to tell me that if all of a goddess's clerics and priests are bound by oath to aid and protect the needy when ever possible. Who is going to tell me that kind of charity would be not noticed, not recognized, and definitely not appreciated.
I must say that non cleric worshippers of Az'atta are not bound by this oath. If the concept aiding and protecting all who need it is has not been RP'd into the game world, well... It is now.
Aeon
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The drow make frequent raids on the surface and are well aware of how they are percieved there and they percieve surfacers especially surface elves with equal enimity
A good drow should have, according to the LORE site, either killed or banished from the Underdark and many are quite young at the time (or so they are RP'ed in the game world). I am unsure how aware a young elf would be of the law of the land still.
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Allorian - 9/27/2006 2:46 PM
The drow make frequent raids on the surface and are well aware of how they are percieved there and they percieve surfacers especially surface elves with equal enimity
A good drow should have, according to the LORE site, either killed or banished from the Underdark and many are quite young at the time (or so they are RP'ed in the game world). I am unsure how aware a young elf would be of the law of the land still.
If he has lived on the surface for some time, he would personally have experienced how people thinks about drow. ;)
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The Drow have spent Elven lifetimes underground, learning to be just as harsh and unforgiving as their environment. It is indoctrinated into their young through experiences and history tales. If a drow leaves to the surface and is not an infant, they will know this one simple general concept by then:
All inhabitants in the Underdark hates the Surface inhabitants, and vice versa.
The drow PC leaving might be an exception in that they are not like the rest of their kin, and there may also be exceptions on the surface in a similar position. But if they do not understand the concept above that would have been taught to them from birth, then they really are too stupid to have lived long enough to have escaped at all, and would have been killed long before they had the chance.
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It was mentioned somewhere earlier that some drow players hide behind the PvP rule well... my experience certainly says the opposite. Many a PC have said things to Zan that hit her so hard, that she (she might be good, but she is still a drow) would have ripped their head off in a blind anger, if it wasnt because of the PvP rule.. instead it always end up with her taking out her sword threating them showing that she is serious and then.... they go on arguing.
Secondly: somewhat this discussion is beginning like it started: "many drow players are awfully bad RP's"... Situations where drows and whatever other race comes into conflict are sometimes RP'ed bad, but it is as often the fault of the attacker or the neutral PC's around, as it is the fault of the drow. Yes, the whole drow thing is RP'ed bad more often than most other situations, but dont say it is the drow player that lacks the RP.
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The Drow have spent Elven lifetimes underground, learning to be just as harsh and unforgiving as their environment. It is indoctrinated into their young through experiences and history tales. If a drow leaves to the surface and is not an infant, they will know this one simple general concept by then:
All inhabitants in the Underdark hates the Surface inhabitants, and vice versa.
The drow PC leaving might be an exception in that they are not like the rest of their kin, and there may also be exceptions on the surface in a similar position. But if they do not understand the concept above that would have been taught to them from birth, then they really are too stupid to have lived long enough to have escaped at all, and would have been killed long before they had the chance.
I highly doubt that. I have already gone into heavy detail describing the previous situation and multiple others. And I am yet to see a 'old' drow played by a PC walking the surface.
Second. How can it be said that many Drow are bad RP'ers? How? Is not each character unique? How can a person who wants to play a drow a certain way be considered a bad RP'er compaired to someone who wants to play another race specifically?
I find that most characters who play Drow actively keep their CDT updated and in each thread (yes I do read alot of CDT's) I find that the person has developed a quite in depth character. I think it is foolhearty to call someone a bad RP'er because they are not playing an evil drow. Guidelines allow for players to create and change every aspect of their Avatar. A bad roleplayer is a person who runs around town begging for help with every quest in an attempt to level extremely fast. A bad roleplayer is the cleric who goes out and solos countless lizardmen (yes, I have seen this on quite a few occasions) for experience and profits beyond the means of which should be possible. A bad roleplayer is a person who extensively metagames (I am not speaking of loremasters and people of knowledge who RP their ability to have learned/learning about the realm). A bad roleplayer is that level three party member in the group who knows the land much better than a mid-level druid simply because this is their second character. And finally, a bad roleplayer is a person who groups with party much higher than their current level for no other reason than simply to gain accelerated experience. The few people who do play drow on this server can hardly be called bad roleplayers. I am yet to see an instance where a drow player has stepped out of his character. Ninety percent of the people who even have drow characters on this game are extremely experienced in their character development and portrayal. Each is unique and each has his own strengths and weaknesses. I find more people out of character who are not drow; and with that stated there is no drow problem.
If there is such a worry for RP reasons, why not set a level restriction for future drow applicants similar to that of CN characters? However, I doubt this will solve much simply for the fact that I simply believe those who are not good RP'ers will give up their drow characters. As in the Underdark, let the strong survive.
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The answer to this is pretty simple. I think it's simple. Because we do not have a massive and visible NPC populace, and we generally need to make one up in our own heads, we have to act in a reasonable manner. Not that we HAVE to, we can act like an idiot if we want, but there is rarely any sort of punishment for such behavoir. What we need is more player-responsibility, if we are to observe this hidden populace.
That means all over, not just for Drow, but for every single character. When you drag your summons into Hlint, you're just as bad as the 'poor drow RPers'. When you're running around polymorphed, lumbering around as a Half-Giant or Half-Ogre, playing a Goblin, Orc, Tiefling or whatever; everyone needs to think about it. It takes a level of responsibility that even some non-subrace characters are not observing. It is up to the player to impose their own restrictions on themselves, be it from Merchants, Garent, or just skulking about town. There are too many possibilities being an enigma could bring up. We're in the dark ages now, everyone is afraid, and I feel that we as subraces need to take a step back and think about how our characters would feel in a situation like this.
Key has taken to wearing a hood and cloak basically anywhere, but even then, the character herself is generally accepted. It's not that people are too nice, it's that the edge has been lost. We're only humans, and after having seen a near constant supply of strange and unusual subraces, is it our fault that we've become used to them?
There doesn't need to be another restriction on being a Drow, or any subrace in general. There should, however, be more focused attention to a character's application on just WHY this Elf needs to be a Drow (Or Tiefling, or Half-Giant, etc), and why it can't just be RPed as a normal character. I've read a lot of character applications, and I've been very much impressed thus far with the backgrounds which express the necessity for the subrace. Yet, I have to wonder, what can the next flock of Drow bring to the table? Fleeing from your Great House, the perils of the Underdark, or even just being born with a good heart; they're all just overdone. What level of depth can be added to a subrace that in most cases has no real reason to be on the surface?
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Talan Va'lash - 9/26/2006 8:49 PM
Drizzlin - 9/26/2006 8:53 PM
TN should be allowed too. One step removed from their dieties is more than ok. After all if it were CN only, there would be NO clerics of Ca'Duz.
TN is not allowed for a cleric of any CE god. TN is two steps away from CE, one step on the good axis and one step on the law axis.
http://nwn.layonara.com/Baraeon%20Ca'Duz
Which is exactly my point. Ca'Duz is NE (check the link above) which means that a cleric of Ca'Duz (like my PC) is TN. That is one step removed from the deity. That is why I said that I think one step removed from a drow diety is fine. Why everyone so many think drow have to be Chaotic is beyond me. I have never said that, I have only said NON good.
I am guessing from your reply to me that you thought Ca'Duz to be CE.
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Yllyrryon - 9/26/2006 9:42 PM
I"m missing why they should be CN. In offering the premise that requirements/hurdles should be in place for those players wishing to play drow, contributors to this thread have pointed to the rules for CN characters as an example. If there are any further alignment restrictions it should be that a drow PC must begin non-good (LN, N, CN - and the latter only if they meet the CN requirement too). And if the player wants them to become good, they must establish it through excellent roleplay and a well written development thread, all culminating in a cdq for the alignment shift to good.
I agree completely and this was my point/suggestion back around post number 5 on this thread. After that this thread, IMO, quickly became a "i am right, you are wrong" issue and I stopped posting here. I still find myself drawn here when I see new posts from people, who are giving constructive ideas and solutions to the drow issues. The people who are saying CN only are the ones, for the most part, who do not want drow as PCs. The other people, again from what I have gathered, are the ones that are not adding anything constructive to this discussion outside of tryin to prove the "opinions" of others wrong. I have spoken in game tells with a lot of the people on this thread, and it is why they stopped posting here.
Watch what will happen to my opinion above, it will be cut and pasted and taken "personally", or I will be told how I am mistaken and "missunderstanding", when all I did was give my opinion of what the thread has become. Like I said before, we need suggestions and opinions, not an argument thread about right and wrong, or bad RP. There have been some great ideas, like yours, but the majority of the thread has caused those ideas to be lost.
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AeonBlues - 9/27/2006 2:57 AM
Again I challenge the notion that villagers would not recognize the symbol of Az'atta. If there is a symbol that will always take you in. Will always help you when you are sick or deprived. Will always be there to protect you. Now, who is going to tell me that if all of a goddess's clerics and priests are bound by oath to aid and protect the needy when ever possible. Who is going to tell me that kind of charity would be not noticed, not recognized, and definitely not appreciated.
There are other gods with the exact same commandment. It is specifically stated on the LORE pages for Aeridin and Rofirein that their followers are to help others. Aeridin's even says, "Temples to Aeridin can be found everywhere, from the largest city to the smallest village." Followers of other gods are likely to help, too, like the followers of Toran and Prunilla and any other Good god with Good followers. According to the Player's Handbook, a Good alignment implies altruism, and Good characters will make personal sacrifices to help others. The very nature of a Good god would therefore imply helping others, even if that is not the god's main focus.
So, let's imagine that all the churches are somehow well known across all of Layonara, deep into every valley and up the highest peaks. And let's also imagine that every commoner knows the ins and outs of every one of those religions, so they know who to go to for help. If there are indeed temples of Aeridin everywhere, and they are sworn to help (LORE page: "Do not refuse to aid those who need it."), and there is a choice between getting help from the Aeridinite who lives next door or an Az'attan Drow who wandered in from who knows where, where do you think most people will actually seek help?
I'm not trying to destroy Az'atta. I think maybe we're looking at her and her whole faith in two different ways. I think there are large churches and small churches, some with more influence and some with less, some well-established in some regions and practically unknown in others while some are sprinkled liberally across the face of the world. Az'atta's church, in my mind, is one that has a foothold but isn't necessarily widespread, or has small temples in several places but doesn't have very much influence. I think it is entirely possible that a lot of commoners, who have a lot of work to do in a day just to stay alive, don't know jack about Az'atta. Being a Drow and trying to help people without some sort of disguise is just going to be hard. It's hard to be a Drow on the surface.
Az'atta says her followers should not be passive, but should be an active force for good. Her priests also have to display her symbol so it is visible to others so they can seek aid. Nothing about that says they need to become famous. It is entirely possible to become a hero even if no one knows your name or your face. It is possible that hiding the fact that a priest is Drow could make it easier to aid others, since people are afraid of Drow. You don't help people by sending them into a panic.
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Drizzlin - 9/27/2006 5:06 PM
The people who are saying CN only are the ones, for the most part, who do not want drow as PCs.
I don't want Drow as PCs, but they are and that's that. I don't think there should be any limits to the alignment of Drow. Forcing non-Good makes it harder to submit a Drow Cleric of Az'atta. True Neutral is a permitted alignment for her Clerics, but it seems an odd one for a god who commands, "Do not be passive, but be an active force for good in Layonara." A TN character who is "an active force for good" is not playing his alignment correctly, in my opinion.
The other people, again from what I have gathered, are the ones that are not adding anything constructive to this discussion outside of tryin to prove the "opinions" of others wrong.
You can't disprove an opinion, you can only debate its merits. Sometimes, it helps to debate a little to better understand the other opinions. I think the "problem" can be solved by player action, and that we don't need more rules and regulations. I don't believe that limiting alignments for Drow will make a difference in how they are treated nor in how they behave. Some people will still befriend Drow a little too easily, and some Drow will continue to prance about like sunburned Elves, as if no one is scared stupid by Drow.
Maybe I don't understand what the whole problem is. I have a vague memory that this thread began with the idea that Drow are somehow RP'd badly. If I recall correctly, it became a weird hybrid discussion of how Drow (and other monstrous races) should behave and how they should be treated. If there is something to the discussion besides that, please let me know, because I am lost otherwise. I really, honestly, absolutely do not understand how limiting Drow to non-Good will help resolve the issue of behavior and treatment, so if someone could explain that I would appreciate it.
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Thank you Drizz...Thank you
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Ok Gulnvr, those are very valid, well thought out and well articulated points. I have a lot to think about. I have been trying to find a way to hear peoples concerns but not put my character through a major re development.
Thanks for your input, it is very constructive, and I will give this all a lot of thought.
Though it does kind of remind me of a time when Cym told a cleric of Vorax that she she spent too much time praying for her own might, and not enough about the might of others. She later said, “Maybe you are right, I think Vorax is punishing me.”
Cym responded, “Maybe Vorax is punishing you for letting a dark elf shake your faith.”
Aeon
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Gulnyr - 9/27/2006 3:41 PM
Drizzlin - 9/27/2006 5:06 PM
The people who are saying CN only are the ones, for the most part, who do not want drow as PCs.
I don't want Drow as PCs, but they are and that's that. I don't think there should be any limits to the alignment of Drow. Forcing non-Good makes it harder to submit a Drow Cleric of Az'atta. True Neutral is a permitted alignment for her Clerics, but it seems an odd one for a god who commands, "Do not be passive, but be an active force for good in Layonara." A TN character who is "an active force for good" is not playing his alignment correctly, in my opinion.
The other people, again from what I have gathered, are the ones that are not adding anything constructive to this discussion outside of tryin to prove the "opinions" of others wrong.
You can't disprove an opinion, you can only debate its merits. Sometimes, it helps to debate a little to better understand the other opinions. I think the "problem" can be solved by player action, and that we don't need more rules and regulations. I don't believe that limiting alignments for Drow will make a difference in how they are treated nor in how they behave. Some people will still befriend Drow a little too easily, and some Drow will continue to prance about like sunburned Elves, as if no one is scared stupid by Drow.
Maybe I don't understand what the whole problem is. I have a vague memory that this thread began with the idea that Drow are somehow RP'd badly. If I recall correctly, it became a weird hybrid discussion of how Drow (and other monstrous races) should behave and how they should be treated. If there is something to the discussion besides that, please let me know, because I am lost otherwise. I really, honestly, absolutely do not understand how limiting Drow to non-Good will help resolve the issue of behavior and treatment, so if someone could explain that I would appreciate it.
I am not going to get into it with you Gulnyr. I will try to answer the question you asked, but that is it. You come off as an extremely argumentative person on these forums and are always out for a "debate". I am not, nor are the the VAST majority of others who posted here. A few wanted to suggest an idea, not debate their idea. If you don't like their ideas/opinions, just let it go. If you are willing to take some advice from me....follow your own advice. Stop trying to "disprove an opinion" or make people change their opinions to fall in suit with yours. I, along with others, do not get the feeling you are "trying to understand" what we are saying.
To answer your final question about how "limiting Drow to non-good will help resolve the issue of behavior and treatment".
It is simple. If the DMs limit the alignment and limit Drow to following Drow gods only, the problem will resolve fast. Well as soon as the soul mother gets rid of the previously approved drow. If everyone played Drow the way they were written in LORE, we would not have the other races accepting every single drow they meet in game with open arms. The problem right now is that is that every single PC Drow you run into right now on layonara is a good-two-shoes drow (outside of two or three drow TOPS). This is the reason drow are accepted with open arms. I do the best I can to represent the Drow community, when I'm logged in, in the spirit of how Drow are written in LORE, given the restrictions/rules of the server. I promise you, no one walks away from my Drow IC loving drow more and wanting to open their arms and accept them. Those that are nice to my drow, I am even meaner too. If every active PC drow approved, were RPed in the same fashion, the problems would go away.
If the DMs set the limits and make sure the people being approved to play drow, are people who will follow the guidelines, then two things will happen. First, the people who would have made that Drow paladin of Toran will not be approved and thus make a something else. Second, the people who will RP drow in the spirit of how they are written in LORE will become the norm and they will make sure the reputation of drow in game are as they are meant to be in LORE. In the end this will mean that every time a PC runs into a drow in game, it will be a pompous, surface hating, backstabbing, son of a spider drow.
Now before Aeonblue comes and gets me...=) The only exception will be followers of Az'atta, which should be rare. The DMs should regulate how many are approved. If the DMs treated/made it as hard for drow to becoming good, as they do for everyone to become Evil, there would not be a ton of good drow running around. How many evil aligned PCs do you see running around Layo? Why you ask? Because it is hard work and restricted by the DMs.
I know you might want to "debate" this with me, but I am not going to debate it. There really is nothing debate. The are no CE PCs, because the DMs don't approve them. There are NO evil PCs at CC, because the DMs do not approve them. The are SO few evil aligned PCs, because it is too much work in game for most, and the DMs limit them. Assimir PCs were once everywhere, and the DMs limited them to the point where you don't see many of them running around. The only "argument" you can give is the exception to the rule, which will become RARE if the DMs place a limitation for drow. People are nice to drow in game, because 99% of the drow they run into are nice to them. If the DMs limited the drow and set hard rules for their approval the numbers will change so that 99.9% of drow you run into are vicious, mean, and untrustworthy...the perceptions and behaviors from other PCs will reflect.
When the mail man comes to your door you smile and say thank you. If everytime you opened the door the mail man kicked you in the groin...your warm welcome and smile would go away quickly, along with the thanks.
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Drizzlin - 9/27/2006 9:28 PM
I promise you, no one walks away from my Drow IC loving drow more and wanting to open their arms and accept them. Those that are nice to my drow, I am even meaner too. If every active PC drow approved, were RPed in the same fashion, the problems would go away.
Excellent. If we limit Drow to being played as jerks, no one will befriend them. I get it. That doesn't keep them walking around openly as if they had no worries, but at least it would handle the problem of overly friendly PCs.
Anyone else? Insult me first if it makes you feel better.
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Be nice folks. Be nice.
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Drizzlin - 9/27/2006 8:28 PM People are nice to drow in game, because 99% of the drow they run into are nice to them. If the DMs limited the drow and set hard rules for their approval the numbers will change so that 99.9% of drow you run into are vicious, mean, and untrustworthy...the perceptions and behaviors from other PCs will reflect. When the mail man comes to your door you smile and say thank you. If everytime you opened the door the mail man kicked you in the groin...your warm welcome and smile would go away quickly, along with the thanks.
This next part of this post is from Lore. If you do not want to read the entire description then read the red. I just think players should remember this. The drow who rp thier chars...thats fantastic. But the people who run up and chat with a drow with out knowing them seems to be metagaming to me. "Well, his title is green, he must be good". The reason I quoted Drizzlin is the people are nice to drow because of 99% of drow are nice to them. That seems metagaming and they are not remembering Layonara's history.
From Lore:
The Dark Elves, The Drow, Those Below, Those Who Have Turned to Evil, The Accursed. These are the names given by surfacers to the obsidian-skinned elves who dwell in Underdark (http://nwn.layonara.com/Underdark) cities. Mysterious, elegant, dark and deadly, they are feared and hated by all the races of Layonara. They are masters of magic and treachery, trusted by none, not even each other.
When Dark Elves come to the surface to raid, they come at night, and every child of Layonara has heard the whispered tales of the Dark Ones even before they have been officially warned of Those Below.
Ages past, Dark Elves were already known to be a proud and warlike race, attacking their neighbors for power and wealth, or other, more insidious gains. However, after The Betrayal by the other Elven Clans around the year -2311, they were led below ground by a Dark Elven hero, Baraeon Ca'Duz (http://nwn.layonara.com/Baraeon%20Ca%27Duz). With the help of Pyrtechon (http://nwn.layonara.com/Pyrtechon), Baraeon taught his people to thrive in their new subterranean home, the Underdark.
Their warlike nature had not changed after The Descent, and it did not take them long to start to establish their own territories in the vast reaches of the Underdark, often capturing settlements of other species and enslaving them in the process. However, they also fought among themselves for control of their new found realm, and as no Dark Elf trusts another, this led to the numerous independent city-states where most Dark Elves dwell today.
Personality: The Dark Elf deities, Vierdri'ira (http://nwn.layonara.com/Vierdri%27ira) and Baraeon Ca'Duz continuously strive to prove themselves better than the other. This is reflected in the personality of the Dark Elves as well. Females think they are better than males, and vice versa.
Dark Elves enjoy magic, especially releasing its power. They also love sculptures or other crafted items (especially well-made lethal weapons). They also admire physical beauty; Dark Elves are proud of their physique and do not hesitate to show it. This has also led to the custom of slaying all newborns with physical deficiencies.
Dark Elves are always in search of more personal power. Therefore, they do not trust other Dark Elves. Instead, they strive to weaken or eliminate their rivals to gain a greater advantage. This is not just the case between cities, but also in the politics of the various noble Houses inside a certain city, or even within a House itself. It is this internal strife between the Dark Elves themselves which keeps the surface races safer than they would be if the Dark Elves were united. On the occasions some Dark Elf cities did unite, they wreaked great destruction, as the capture of the human city of Westgate in the year -103 and the destruction of Port Hampshire (http://nwn.layonara.com/Port%20Hampshire) in 834 can attest to. If all the Houses of a single city were to unite for one purpose, they could bring cities like Hlint (http://nwn.layonara.com/Hlint) and Haven to their knees.
Dark Elves also do not trust other races. They accept none as superior to theirs, although they may admit some races, such as Illithid or Duergar, are almost equals. Treaties with these races are usually born through hard bargaining and mutual-gain agreements. Dark Elves will negotiate with other (lesser) species, but will break such agreements at the moment they are no longer beneficial. To the Drow, bargains with lesser races are not considered to be binding. Most races have learned by now that they should be prepared for treachery when, not if, it comes.
Physical Description: Dark Elves are a lot like surface elves, they tend to be lithe, slim, and graceful in their build, movements and appearance. The most striking thing that sets them apart from the surface elves is their obsidian skin. Also, females tend to be bigger and stronger than males. Because of this females tend to be the better fighter, but males tend to be the better mage.
The second thing that sets them apart from surface elves is their eyes. Dark Elf eyes are usually red, but green, brown, or black eyes are not uncommon. When angered or upset, all Dark Elf eyes tend to turn redder.
Thirdly, most Dark Elves have white hair, tending a bit towards yellow for females and towards gray for males as they get older. Occasionally, a Dark Elf can have silver or copper-hued hair.
Dark Elves can generally live as long as surface Elves can, and they do not show their age until about their 600th year.
Relations with Dark Elves: Dark Elf cities are ruled by a council of noble Houses, the Talthara. Every city has its First Patriarch and its First Matriarch, who preside over the Talthara (but not necessarily comply with its wishes). The Patriarch is always a cleric of Baraeon Ca’duz, and the Matriarch is always a cleric of Vierdri’ira. They need not be from the same House, although every House strives to occupy both positions for ultimate supremacy.
Each House also has its Matriarch and Patriarch, who together rule a House. However, because of the gender struggles inherent in Drow society, it is unlikely that a House occupies both First positions on the Talthara, since a strong House Matriarch does not often condone a strong Patriarch in her own House.
Two other powerful positions in a Dark Elf city are those of Archmage and Warmistress.
Since males are more adept at magic, the Archmage is always a male. The Warmistress is always female, since females tend to be of bigger build. The Archmage and Warmisstress are the most important advisors to the First Matriarch and First Patriarch. In general, the House who provides a First Matriarch or First Patriarch will also try to control one of these positions. Of course, the other Houses are not likely to just allow this to happen.
The Houses continually vie for supremacy in the Talthara, as well as for wealth and power. This struggle for power is also apparent between Dark Elf cities. Plans to increase Dark Elf power and influence are usually made by Houses who are already in excellent position, and who have nothing to lose in the plan.
The surface world is hardly aware of the nature of Dark Elven society.
The exact number and location of Dark Elven cities is subject to speculation. Even the Dark Elves themselves likely do not know exactly how many cities there are, due to the vastness of the Underdark and its ever changing caves and corridors.
Relations with other races: Most dealings between Dark Elf cities and surfacers involve the slave trade. Dark Elves usually have goblinoid slaves, such as goblins, orcs and hobgoblins. Kobolds are considered too small, agile and independent to make good slaves. Human slaves are valued, but considered dangerous if they are trained fighters or magic-users. Slaves who are adept at crafting are valued highly, but most do not last long in the Underdark.
With regard to other races, dwarves, humans, and of course the darthir (a word meaning both Surface Elf as well as Traitor in Dark Elf language) are traditional Dark Elf enemies on the surface. As far as other Underdark races go, Illithid and Duergar are traded with but never trusted or befriended, and there is no race a Dark Elf enjoys killing so much as a Deep Gnome.
Alignment: The vast majority of Dark Elves are evil. However, there are a few neutral or good Drow, but these do not survive long in the twisted, cruel society of Dark Elven cities.
Dark Elven Lands: Dark Elf cities can be found throughout the Underdark. A few locations are known, but there are probably more. Rumor has it that there is a city made of good Dark Elves, refugees from their vicious society, but that may be a myth.
Religion: Vierdri’ira and Baraeon Ca’duz (those who fail The Test are killed or turned into Driders, see also the entries for both deities). Before the treachery of Az'atta (http://nwn.layonara.com/Az%27atta), the Dark Elven deities did not yet make a distinction on being a purely male or female faith. However, after being betrayed by Az’atta, Baraeon had his male followers expel or kill all of his female clerics as act of vengeance for Az’atta’s betrayal.
This then led to Vierdri’ira expelling all her male followers, who then turned to Baraeon Ca’duz, further polarizing Dark Elf society.
Language: Dark Elves have their own language, also known as “Deep” or “Low Drow,” which does not resemble the language spoken by the Surface Elves except in eloquence and musical inflection. All Dark Elves also learn “The Silent Language,” a kind of “hand code” as detailed as spoken language. The Silent Language is used to communicate when silence is needed. This language, which requires a lot of tutoring, is a requirement before any Dark Elf is allowed to accompany a raiding party.
Then there is the third, almost archaic language of “High Drow.” This language is known and used only by the high clergy.
Player character Drow will not be given the ability to speak languages other than Common, Elven or Drow, unless they are clearly defined in the character submission biography. Player character Drow will also know the Silent Language, but there is currently no in-game equivalent of this. Clerics following Vierdri’ira or Bareaon Ca’Duz will know High Drow, but there is no in-game equivalent of this either.
Player characters must have a minimum intelligence of 12 to be fluent in another language.
End Lore.
These reasons are why People should not like a drow roaming the city. By people I also mean the npc's we do not see due to NWN mechanics.
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Gulnyr - 9/27/2006 7:13 PM
Drizzlin - 9/27/2006 9:28 PM
I promise you, no one walks away from my Drow IC loving drow more and wanting to open their arms and accept them. Those that are nice to my drow, I am even meaner too. If every active PC drow approved, were RPed in the same fashion, the problems would go away.
Excellent. If we limit Drow to being played as jerks, no one will befriend them. I get it. That doesn't keep them walking around openly as if they had no worries, but at least it would handle the problem of overly friendly PCs.
Anyone else? Insult me first if it makes you feel better.
Jerks? No, just played as Drow and then you are correct with what you said. To say someone is being a "jerk" because they are following the normal behaviors of their PCs, as written in the history of the world, is childish and out of line IMO. You don't see people calling halfgiants, RPing their intel, stupid morons. It is called good RP. So no, don't RP a jerk, RP a Drow as it is written. When you RP with someone like that you walk away saying "she RPed a great Drow" not, "she RPed a jerk". Some how you keep referring to RPing a Drow as something negative that you keep labeling as "jerk". I do not RP being a “jerk”, I RP a Drow.
As far as walking around openly and using NPC vendors. The only absolute way around that is for all NPCs/guards to be set to kos towards drow PCs. Another solution is to make it a rule that drow/monster race NPCs can not been seen openly in certain cities. It would be the same as the rule we have for not allowing followers of certain deities in the temples of their deities enemies.
However, before that can happen there must first be a city/area created that Drow (and other monster races) can go to and bank/sell/buy/buy homes/craft. This will take a lot of work from the DMs and it can wait. First let us tackle the easy issue of approval of Drow pcs, which has been suggested.
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Me thinks people are taking this way too personal. I really think this thread has lost its virtue. Point is as always, you can't 'force' RP in a certain direction so easy.
Saying that drow on the surface should reflect those in the Underdark is pointless in itself. The fact that they are there means they often have some strange story to tell and should not so easily be considered representative of their entire race.
As far as I see it, the problem isn't how drow are played. It's because everyone starts out in Hlint and is rather forced to live together in relative harmony.
You have half-giants running all over the place and drow sitting by the pond. Well of course there is, they are played and Hlint is where we all start.
That is why the temporary restriction is the only feasible way to address this. It's not so much how people RP, it's the fact that at a lower level the drow are forced to stay near other races. And after a while when they are high enough to actually be more independant they already are recognized by most others as one of the 'good drows' in Hlint.
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Solutions:
Step 1: Limit subraces to players who meet the requirements for CN - 6 months and 10 levels in another character.
Step 2: Continue to remind people that ALL THROUGH THIER CHILDHOODS THIER BOOGEYMAN WAS A BLACK-SKINNED ELF.
As a sidenote... Aye. A bit to personal. Let's just take a step back and refer to Rules 0 and Z:
Rule 0: The DM is always right (and the DM wrote the page saying how Drow are considered).
Rule Z: We're here to have fun. So lighten up and do it. ;)
----
"But Mommy, there's a Drow in my clos-URK!" *Clutches at the arrow in his throat.*
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Drizzlin - 9/27/2006 2:57 PM
Talan Va'lash - 9/26/2006 8:49 PM
Drizzlin - 9/26/2006 8:53 PM
TN should be allowed too. One step removed from their dieties is more than ok. After all if it were CN only, there would be NO clerics of Ca'Duz.
TN is not allowed for a cleric of any CE god. TN is two steps away from CE, one step on the good axis and one step on the law axis.
http://nwn.layonara.com/Baraeon%20Ca'Duz
Which is exactly my point. Ca'Duz is NE (check the link above) which means that a cleric of Ca'Duz (like my PC) is TN. That is one step removed from the deity. That is why I said that I think one step removed from a drow diety is fine. Why everyone so many think drow have to be Chaotic is beyond me. I have never said that, I have only said NON good.
I am guessing from your reply to me that you thought Ca'Duz to be CE.
*chuckles* Fair enough! :)
In other words, oopsie
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Drizzlin - 9/27/2006 10:54 PM
Jerks? No, just played as Drow and then you are correct with what you said. To say someone is being a "jerk" because they are following the normal behaviors of their PCs, as written in the history of the world, is childish and out of line IMO.
Jerk is the word that seems to describe that behavior to me. Arrogant, devious, rude, hateful... that's a jerk. It wouldn't mean anything to say, "Drow should be played Drowishly." Substitute whatever word you like.
So no, don't RP a jerk, RP a Drow as it is written.
Arrogant, devious, rude, and hateful?
Some how you keep referring to RPing a Drow as something negative that you keep labeling as "jerk".
When have I said any such thing? I challenge anyone to show me where, other than the referenced quote above, I have labeled Drow as jerks.
I don't make any secret of disliking Drow as a playable race, and while I'm at it I'll toss in the other monstrous races and Planetouched. I don't like 'em. That's my opinion. *shrug* But they're in, and I'm cool with that. Since we're going to have them, let's do it right. If we don't, then basically we're just letting people play powerful Elves (in the case of Drow) without the drawbacks that they should have. Point to ECLs if you like, but quests cancel that quite nicely. (Take your complaints about play time and quest schedules to another thread, please, or find one of the old ones and read through it.) I don't think RPing Drow is something negative, I just think there need to be real, in-game negatives to properly realize the experience.
One step at a time, sure. Start with submissions and approvals, sure. But that is not the only thing that requires change.
Filatus, nice post, especially the second paragraph.
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First of all – Thank you Wraithdur for making this post back the 1/9
I tried to go back and see when there had been such a debate on Drow before and you know what I could not find any. Well done dude. ;)
Further a big kudos to all being active on this post – heck I didn’t read all the post through as it would take me for ever. ;)
I am sure this debate will go on and on and on and on and on…. And I am happy for it - as it will give the Team something to consider – hopefully ;)
And that is the only thing I need…
My opinion: Well you know it already..
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Guys,
In my opinion Drizzlin summed it up perfectly (ignoring the little scuffle between Gulnyr and himself). I think his words hold merit.
Secondly thanks to Etinfall for illustrating those key points in red. I think everyone should pay close attention to that before commenting.
To Filatus I would state that although we all start from the same area and do the same mini-quests..etc, we need to move outside these confines the minute we can. We dont all stay at lvl 1 for long and the majority of players under scrutiny are of average level. Plus this discussion is not directed totally at the people playing the Drow, but for everyone else to start treating them according to the higlighted points that Etinfall portrayed.
My old character Ramanon was well hated and I played him like that due to his involvement with Corath. The only time he was in Hlint was when he was passing through. Most of my time was spent plotting and scheming with Chanda, MArcus and Rufus. We did this in our own abodes and in the end our well-deserved Temple. Sometimes I purposefully ventured into towns hoping to get into arguments, disputes or rivalry...I mean, thats the fun part! Funnily enough thats the part I dont get regarding this thread. In my opinion the benefit for playing a drow character is for the abuse, the fear, the anger towards you, the skill in avoiding being detected, the volatility. Actually I think the bio of my old char was something like showing the world that necromancy could be used to benefit others. THat he would serve some purpose for the eventual good. But the beauty was that quite the opposite happened. He was dragged through many series of events to a nasty, bitter and twisted servant of Corath.
The best characers develop themselves. Play them how they should inherently be and see where the environment takes them.
Maybe it's time for LEanthar and the team to throw some Drow attacks on the realm once again? I think we should try to use this thread to enhance the world in some positive way.
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Drizzlin - 9/27/2006 3:28 PM
It is simple. If the DMs limit the alignment and limit Drow to following Drow gods only, the problem will resolve fast. Well as soon as the soul mother gets rid of the previously approved drow.
Maybe its just me but.... the soul mother gets rid of the previously approved drow... thats certainly not something players should wish for other players characters.
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Me thinks people are taking this way too personal. I really think this thread has lost its virtue. Point is as always, you can't 'force' RP in a certain direction so easy.
Saying that drow on the surface should reflect those in the Underdark is pointless in itself. The fact that they are there means they often have some strange story to tell and should not so easily be considered representative of their entire race.
As far as I see it, the problem isn't how drow are played. It's because everyone starts out in Hlint and is rather forced to live together in relative harmony.
You have half-giants running all over the place and drow sitting by the pond. Well of course there is, they are played and Hlint is where we all start.
That is why the temporary restriction is the only feasible way to address this. It's not so much how people RP, it's the fact that at a lower level the drow are forced to stay near other races. And after a while when they are high enough to actually be more independant they already are recognized by most others as one of the 'good drows' in Hlint.
My old character Ramanon was well hated and I played him like that due to his involvement with Corath. The only time he was in Hlint was when he was passing through. Most of my time was spent plotting and scheming with Chanda, MArcus and Rufus. We did this in our own abodes and in the end our well-deserved Temple. Sometimes I purposefully ventured into towns hoping to get into arguments, disputes or rivalry...I mean, thats the fun part! Funnily enough thats the part I dont get regarding this thread. In my opinion the benefit for playing a drow character is for the abuse, the fear, the anger towards you, the skill in avoiding being detected, the volatility. Actually I think the bio of my old char was something like showing the world that necromancy could be used to benefit others. THat he would serve some purpose for the eventual good. But the beauty was that quite the opposite happened. He was dragged through many series of events to a nasty, bitter and twisted servant of Corath.
The best characers develop themselves. Play them how they should inherently be and see where the environment takes them.
Thank You Filatus and Polak, this is what I have been trying to say along with Aeon's ideas behind the church of Az'atta.
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Niles09 - 9/28/2006 7:38 AM
Drizzlin - 9/27/2006 3:28 PM
It is simple. If the DMs limit the alignment and limit Drow to following Drow gods only, the problem will resolve fast. Well as soon as the soul mother gets rid of the previously approved drow.
Maybe its just me but.... the soul mother gets rid of the previously approved drow... thats certainly not something players should wish for other players characters.
You are right, and I didn't mean it that way. I do not wish the soul mother on anyone. I was making a joke, but at the same time it is reality. Over time, if you buck the odds...they will catch up with you.