Author Topic: a possible answer for the drow problem (Read 4444 times)

IceDragonDuvessa · « **Reply #80 on:** September 07, 2006, 09:22:10 pm »

Lets keep this contructive and polite or the thread will be locked. Drizzlin please don't snipe at people a healthy discussion lends both sides of an argument and doesn't leave broad statments of inferiority as implied in this post as you are doing exactly what you are complaining about. Thank you.

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Drizzlin - 9/7/2006 8:54 PM

You are wasting your time. Some of the people you are arguing with here on this thread, argue just because they can. They think their characters are number one and are not going to listen to an opinion or an idea from anyone else. They didn't come here to give constructive solutions or help with valid input for the community as a whole.

Miriel · « **Reply #81 on:** September 08, 2006, 03:59:37 am »

To make some inputs to the debate...

Firstly... Someone mentioned the problem with Drows in Hlint, well that is the problem with it being a starting area, a person making a Drow cant help ending up there ?... in a real life, the world would be full of shady places where the drow could choose to start its carrieer, in places where no one would give a ... what you were, atleast to some extent... ewen getting items, gear and such... but to my knowledge these places dont exist, couse everything that could be in a real world isent in a created one, that is a limitation due to the fact that the creators ewen if they so wish cant create or build everything or populate it with NPCs representing every person that would excist in a real world...

Secondly... Most drow that get out of the underdark is usually rather experienced and are rather powerfull, ewen more so if they done it on their own, wich also adds to the fear of the drow...

Thirdly... In the little time iwe played on layonara, iwe been scorned, mistrusted, asked to leave the village, but i have also been met with friendliness... Hlint is a wery little place, the word/rumour would spread wery fast, for example if my character is seen with a paladin Toran, law and order, Paladins wich are known to sense evil at mere sight... now if i walk side with side with that paladin, wouldent all commoners see this, and wouldent word spread about this... There are sooooo many aspects that cant and will newer befully represented ewen if we wish it to be...

Fourthly... Ewen if you see the arms or legs of a character and not its face, you cant know its a drow... you should as NON-drow asume its a darkskinned elf or ewen darkskinned human... black tanned humans would be ALOT more common then drows on the surface... Take for example the Tuareg culture of sahara in africa, they are veiled and are wery dark skinned... Then we have the limitations of the game mechanics, i want my character to look good, and if i am to cower my characters complete body in clouthes, you will end up with wery little choises left, and still look good...

Fifth... Dont asume someone roleplays badly, there might be alot of aspects behind the role, you have no idea about...

/M

Harlas Ravelkione · « **Reply #82 on:** September 08, 2006, 05:19:33 am »

This discussion has been very good, barring a few remarks towards others posting in this thread. Let us not pull a sound discussion into personal accusations and stay on topic. This IS a topic I have argued in dozens of times and it comes up every once in a while because it creates frustration.

I am on the same fence as AR7 and Vyris here. I have RPed heavily against any drow Kobal has met on Layonara for a long time. After two years though it gets old and these days I ignore them or bluntly tell them to bugger off when they approach me. I mostly refuse to deal with them in wares - and in the cases where one has proven his personality by bringing others that spoke for him and having a priest speak for him I have dealt with them on the same terms as everyone else. In all other cases I tend to refuse to deal with them or I ask double the normal price.

As a rule of thumb Kobal views ANY drow on the surface as spies. Why else would they be running around Hlint, trying to make friends? It is because they want to learn about us, then ask questions about defences and the strength of our garrisons and standing army.
Those who claim to be good and try to convince one by commiting acts of good cannot be trusted either because they are traitors to their kin. And every dwarf knows: You cannot trust a traitor.

The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is when I attend quests, where there are drow in the party Kobal does not know. Those Kobal knows he can keep an eye on and be calmed by the fact that he knows what they can do - he knows he can take them down should the need arise. But new drow are a problem, and I have left a few quests due to that over the years, which I do not like to do. I have challenged drow to leave and asked other members of the group to back me up before they consider fighting alongside someone who may trip you or stab you in the back. 9 out of 10 times I have ended up leaving the group and the quest myself - anything else would be bad RP of Kobal's character.

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #83 on:** September 08, 2006, 05:50:42 am »

Hmm…I avoided from shoving my two cents into this conversation for a while, but now If it’s alright I wish to make a few comments.

   I don’t remember exactly how long ago it was, but back when I was still in highschool (Somewhere between May and June I’m guessing) I made a Drow character , just to see what it was like: Shri. My top reasons for doing this were

   1) too many of the Drow I had seen had expected to be (And almost always , as a result, were)    Trusted, good, not struggling with the darkness that’s supposed to reside within them at all. Either    that or they were “Chaotic mischief makers” (The type that cast darkness and run, or bump into    you invisible). I wanted to try something different, something that I’ve only seen two to three    Drow do in the past: I wanted to play a Drow.

   2) Of those Three Drow I speak of that actually played as what I’ll refer to as “True Drow” (not    counting the Az’attites , they get a free pass with me), none of them, so far as I could tell were    females. Meaning, all three of their were followers of Ca’Duz. As a result, I saw (While looking    upon the Server Stats quite extensively) that very few people worshipped Vierdri’ira. So I decided    to give it a shot.

Needless to say I got fed up with her fast. If It wasn’t people trying to convert me to “The ways of the surface” or the ways of Az’atta (which was actually kind of fun), It was people treating me with friendliness , then whining to me (Both in character and out) When I replied with hostility. I put Shri aside and focused back on Rhynn: it just wasn’t going the way that I had planned.

With the advent of this thread, I decided to try an experiment and pull her back out. What I came back to was a MUCH better representation of how Drow in Hlint should be treated. Granted, there were still some problems, but it was a much better rp then it was back in May/June. I was sure to thank everyone (Via tells) Who reacted accordingly to Shri, and eventually had to have her suck it up and realise that if she didn’t at least appease the “blexing surfacers” until the time comes where she could surpass them (Shri isn’t an idiot, she knows these people can swing a sword/axe/whatever/take a hit better than her. She’s a bit of a runt/weakling anyway, just striving to follow her people‘s way of things) that she would have nothing but trouble, and while relishing in manipulating and overtaking people, she knows its just not something she’s ready to face yet.

So What am I trying to get to with this, if you read nothing else, read this:

PEOPLE ARE LISTENING TO THIS THREAD!

GOOD JOB! =)

Lilswanwillow · « **Reply #84 on:** September 08, 2006, 08:56:12 am »

ok, so... we have established that there is a problem, and that it needs to be... tweaked, modified, or somehow saved.

well, how about have GM's randomly attack Hlint or various other towns when there is a gathering of PC's!!! see 10 people RP'ing in Hlint? take a half dozen (or less, depending on strength of characters.. or more!!!!) drow and attack Hlint. if theres a drow in the party, that would be better... people could learn from it

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #85 on:** September 08, 2006, 08:59:55 am »

They've done it though. There have been Drow attacks on Hlint and Spellgaurd in the past (Im assuming these were actual attacks and not just a written history seeing as I myself was not there for them). I've seen Drow come to Hlint personally targeting certain people (during the time just after the Pandemonium horses Arch in April, a Drow came to attack Ireth. Im sure there are more instances of this).

More recently two drow followed by a Bebelith (I think that's what it was. Snakey thing) attacked Hlint as well...

Lilswanwillow · « **Reply #86 on:** September 08, 2006, 09:08:37 am »

more, more often? it IS the dark ages, and drow can see better now, right? day or night? remember, game time, its been years since a drow attack

Allorian · « **Reply #87 on:** September 08, 2006, 09:11:28 am »

With my Drow character I have found mixed reactions, however I have grown quite bored with him. I've decided no longer to play him for multiple reasons which I will not delve into. However, I find it odd how some characters are so trusting of a Drow walking the streets. I guess I will use an analogy...(hopefully I do so without offending anyone)

A group of people who wear Dark Blue - Black clothing and tatoo their face with some symbol to mark their appearance continuesly go around your school/place of work/community and savagely beat random people for no odd reason. This group would obviously cause some suspicioun and mistrust (with 99% of the people minus perhaps some that would want to join the group); people would fear being assulted and the police would obviously be called for multiple reasons on multiple occasions. A prejudice and aprehension would from amongst the community of this group. Parents would tell their children to avoid the group and police would keep an eye out for member of the group.

now, a member of this group wants out, yet he is branded with his group's symbol on his head. When attempting to confrom back to society, people would not trust this man, no matter if his heart is now good. Police would keep an eye to his actions, etc.

I feel such is the same with Drow, they would be this group. I find it odd that Drow are accepted so easily in society. My character grew increasinly weak and hid appearance ... but at the same time someone acts outside of RPing and just shout out your a drow and basically ruin all RPing ability. Honestly, at first I expected much resistence and haven't been greeted with much making my character somewhat boring to play...

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #88 on:** September 08, 2006, 09:16:07 am »

Perhaps that is so, but we must remember that the GMs have a lot on their hands. Weather or not the Drow have attacked in the last few years, it is a RP stance, and the PLAYER's responsibility to realise Drow are a hated feared and shunned race. While it would be nice, the GMs shouldn't really be required to take time away from their Quest planning and/or their playing plus whatever other behind the scenes stuff they're doing for us to basically say:

This is a friendly neighborhood reminder: HATE DROW
Now I bring you back to your regularly scheduled programming....

Drizzlin · « **Reply #89 on:** September 08, 2006, 11:23:59 am »

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Harlas Ravelkione - 9/8/2006 5:19 AM

The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is when I attend quests, where there are drow in the party Kobal does not know. Those Kobal knows he can keep an eye on and be calmed by the fact that he knows what they can do - he knows he can take them down should the need arise. But new drow are a problem, and I have left a few quests due to that over the years, which I do not like to do. I have challenged drow to leave and asked other members of the group to back me up before they consider fighting alongside someone who may trip you or stab you in the back. 9 out of 10 times I have ended up leaving the group and the quest myself - anything else would be bad RP of Kobal's character.

This is a big problem on both sides and the main reason I stopped attending quests. I want to be there OOC, but I feel my drow never would want to be. I admit I have not tried "hard" to look at the exact quests, but I wish there were more quests out there that focused on shady tasks that would appeal to more monster races. If there are, and I haven't noticed them, please feel free to point me towards their direction!

Niles09 · « **Reply #90 on:** September 08, 2006, 11:32:51 am »

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Drizzlin - 9/8/2006 8:23 AM

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Harlas Ravelkione - 9/8/2006 5:19 AM

The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is when I attend quests, where there are drow in the party Kobal does not know. Those Kobal knows he can keep an eye on and be calmed by the fact that he knows what they can do - he knows he can take them down should the need arise. But new drow are a problem, and I have left a few quests due to that over the years, which I do not like to do. I have challenged drow to leave and asked other members of the group to back me up before they consider fighting alongside someone who may trip you or stab you in the back. 9 out of 10 times I have ended up leaving the group and the quest myself - anything else would be bad RP of Kobal's character.

This is a big problem on both sides and the main reason I stopped attending quests. I want to be there OOC, but I feel my drow never would want to be. I admit I have not tried "hard" to look at the exact quests, but I wish there were more quests out there that focused on shady tasks that would appeal to more monster races. If there are, and I haven't noticed them, please feel free to point me towards their direction!

This is an RP server, however RP should never directly limit a player from having a good time. Being forced to leave a quest because of your char is not right. At least not if it happens often.

Ne'er · « **Reply #91 on:** September 08, 2006, 01:52:20 pm »

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Niles09 - 9/8/2006 2:32 PM

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Drizzlin - 9/8/2006 8:23 AM

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Harlas Ravelkione - 9/8/2006 5:19 AM

The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is when I attend quests, where there are drow in the party Kobal does not know. Those Kobal knows he can keep an eye on and be calmed by the fact that he knows what they can do - he knows he can take them down should the need arise. But new drow are a problem, and I have left a few quests due to that over the years, which I do not like to do. I have challenged drow to leave and asked other members of the group to back me up before they consider fighting alongside someone who may trip you or stab you in the back. 9 out of 10 times I have ended up leaving the group and the quest myself - anything else would be bad RP of Kobal's character.

This is a big problem on both sides and the main reason I stopped attending quests. I want to be there OOC, but I feel my drow never would want to be. I admit I have not tried "hard" to look at the exact quests, but I wish there were more quests out there that focused on shady tasks that would appeal to more monster races. If there are, and I haven't noticed them, please feel free to point me towards their direction!

This is an RP server, however RP should never directly limit a player from having a good time. Being forced to leave a quest because of your char is not right. At least not if it happens often.

If your character is a drow, tiefling, goblin, orc, etc. then it is something you should take into consideration before you submitted the character.If you want a character that everyone will accept and be friendly with, don't play one of the 'evil' races. If you play one, you've got whatever other players throw out you. If that means you've essentially been "forced" off a quest, well, that's what you get for being a drow. If you have a problem with not being able to make quests, then submit another character or just find out a way to prove yourself. It won't be (or at least shouldn't be) easy though.

Just remember, if you play a drow, you essentially signed up for having trouble like this.

Niles09 · « **Reply #92 on:** September 08, 2006, 02:27:42 pm »

I dont have a problem that people assualt (verbally) drows at the streets, but forcing someone of a quest is not right. Playing here is to have a good time, it can be arguing with character because they hate a character, it can be adventuring, it can be playing a quest, but how can you have a good time if you cant play the quest?

IceDragonDuvessa · « **Reply #93 on:** September 08, 2006, 02:35:56 pm »

I have both left quests and forced others to leave based on RP. If a person misses out on a quest due to sticking to their rp guns then good for them for not bending on the core of their character for ooc reasons such as I want to be on a quest, I want XP, I want neat items etc...

ZeroVega · « **Reply #94 on:** September 08, 2006, 02:38:37 pm »

I don't believe I've ever seen anyone "forced" off a quest. It all depends on the level of immersion YOU want and how much you're willing to comprimise for other players immersion wants. Harlas said he leaves quests because "anything else would be bad RP of Kobal." If your drow or drow hating character should probably leave, decide then and there (or before you even make said character) what you'll do. Do you want to stay in character and act accordingly or do you want to have fun and disregard it?

I'll admit, I've stayed on quests and compromised more than Tathnolu normally would in order to do so. Other times, I've left when Tath definatly would have stayed or at least bugged the heck out of people until it started. Some times I just wasn't in the mood to go to the trouble of RPing it all out or being dissapointed because I too had been waiting weeks for the quest. But all in all I've stepped out more than a few times because I felt that staying in character was more important than going on that totally awesome quest. *sigh* It's up to the players. (I highly doubt anyone's ever going to make a rule about it or that any GM will force you off a quest for those reasons.)

Role Play the hatred that people would and should have for drow.

Drow, Role Play that part of your drow that is intelligent and don't have your character strut around like he can't be touched.

Just don't be a total pain in the butt.

Play it out like the threats can be carried out (and if necessary, carry them out in an RP fashion).

And again, don't be a total pain in the butt.

Niles09 · « **Reply #95 on:** September 08, 2006, 03:00:06 pm »

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IceDragonDuvessa - 9/8/2006 11:35 AM

I have both left quests and forced others to leave based on RP. If a person misses out on a quest due to sticking to their rp guns then good for them for not bending on the core of their character for ooc reasons such as I want to be on a quest, I want XP, I want neat items etc...

It depends very much on how often you go on quest. Quests are some of the funniest things in here, and what truly makes Layo annihilate all the big money online RPG's, some can surely spare a quest or two since they can join them several times a week, some can only join a quest once in a week or month.

But generally, making rules that would allow players freely to kill drows as they please (RP or not, and it is absolutly absurd) or pushing people towards going out of a quest against their will - its not fun for the player anymore.

Etinfall · « **Reply #96 on:** September 08, 2006, 03:27:50 pm »

I agree Niles, it is not fun. But having your character compromise(in rp fasion) his beliefs just to go on a quest gets to be not fun also. My characters beliefs on drow came from reading up in Lore, and before lore the regular weg pages. Also, the attacks he has seen from drow and what one paticular drow did to him (see Storm

) When I go to a quest and there is a drow, first thing I do is send the drow a tell saying how my char really doeasn't like drow and that he might get rude about travelling with him. I make sure it is ok with that pc that there is hard tension between them. The last thing I want to do is ruin a quest for someone else. If it seems like it will be hard to rp my char's true feelings then I will bow out. I will be truley dissapointed to leave but it just will not be woth it. I have never forced or try to force someone of a quest, even though I wanted to at times

I just can't do that.

On many occasions the entire party gets upset with me for speaking out on the drow being there. And when that happens I will definitely leave the party. RP'ing it the whole way, but feeling a little odd about it. Players have been allowed to create drow PCs, so I do understand it is not fair to not allow them thier fun. I just hope said drow feel the same way about the other players.

Just today I was in Hlint. A large group of people were rp'ing in town. There were a few drow there. Right in the middle of all the rp. I did not hear one mention of there being a drow sitting there chatting with everyone like they were joe farmer from down the road. So, instead of griping that drow are back in Hlint, I kept to the shadows, equipped my bane of the elf and watched. I was just not sure how to procede. I could have started the drow hate thing right there but I was afraid I would ruin some good rp'ing from everyone else. So I kept quiet. Did not get to rp very well with some very fun people, and not because there was a drow there, but because I am never sure how to procede.

I use the history of Layonara and DnD to create my views on drow.

Etinfall

IceDragonDuvessa · « **Reply #97 on:** September 08, 2006, 03:29:41 pm »

these are things that people playing a notoriously evil race need to take into consideration before they make the decision to play one of these races. As others have been said there are races you can play that people will happily include and I for one do not get to go on many quests yet I stand be my statement and would still leave if rp dictated me to do so.

Olme · « **Reply #98 on:** September 08, 2006, 03:34:37 pm »

My frame of reference on this is quite simple:

"The Dark Elves, The Drow, Those Below, Those Who Have Turned To Evil, The Accursed. These are the names given by surfacers to the obsidian-skinned elves who dwell in Underdark cities. Mysterious, elegant, dark and deadly, they are feared and hated by all the races of Layonara. They are masters of magic and treachery, trusted by none, not even each other.
When Dark Elves come to the surface to raid, they come at night, and every child of Layonara has heard the whispered tales of the Dark Ones even before they have officially warned of Those Below "

--- Layonara Campaign Handbook 2nd Edition page 31

AeonBlues · « **Reply #99 on:** September 08, 2006, 03:49:56 pm »

We have a dark elf on a bench having a conversation while dressed in elegent cloths. We also have a a dark clothed man, hiding in the shadows, and keeping his hand on his sword.

Who would you be more afraid of?