Author Topic: a problem with the new resting... (Read 3170 times)

merlin34baseball · « **on:** August 20, 2007, 09:47:38 pm »

Ok...

I am going to do this as gently as I can...

I have a serious problem with this new resting thing. It has basically taken alot of the power away from my character.

I now get to play a level 4 rogue, and not a 19th level rogue/mage. Why, cause I can't rest often enough to protect her. And... I'm sorry that I don't have time to sit and chat around the campfire all day long. Some people don't play this game (GAME) to RP constantly, trust me I understand the RP aspect, my other character just spent the last several days RPing...

An OOC event has reduced her to, well, basically nothing. The character was supposed to be a character that could protect herself and rain down evocations for a short time on the enemy.

Oh some would say well you should have taken extend spell to make sure you can cover the increase in rest time, and I was supposed to know that how?

Now I have a level 19 character, with 9 DTs who basically can fight one or two battles then......... I guess run away for the next ten minutes. Lovely. So now do I not only have to get so many MILLION XP to get to 21st, but I have to do it with half the spells.

I can't see how this is helps anyone. People build their characters to fit the world... I have no power build, sheesh she a 4th level rogue, and 15 wizard... If I would have been power building I certainly never would have taken a single rogue level, had I know that I had to rest the same amount of time (19 minutes for this split or a straight wiz) to get my spells back, heck I'd be casting a bunch of 9th level spells instead of one 8th.

I have never ranted here... but this totally OOC change to every spellcaster strikes me as wrong.

I would like some constructive critisizm of my post... no flames, please tell me why I am wrong, give me examples of justifications, not beat me up, and maybe I can see the logic, but to me, when a character that I have been playing for a year and a half suddenly has half the spell capacity from some sort of OOC event...

It bothers me.

My Thanks,
Merlin34

And, please, help me see the light on this, its just not me that feels this way, this has nerfed every multiclassed character that is not a pure spellcaster...

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #1 on:** August 20, 2007, 10:11:05 pm »

You're not wrong: I'm going to be as blunt as possible, and I don't care who disagrees with me.

There once were a few reasons this change was needed
Those reasons, in one way or another, have moved on
This is no longer needed.

Earlier Dorg Said: "Its only been around for a day, give it some time"

The only suggestion I can make is, see how it goes for a little while and bump this again later, say, a few weeks.

Pseudonym · « **Reply #2 on:** August 20, 2007, 10:23:32 pm »

I have lots of thoughts about this mate (without the time right here and now to put them all down) but two quickies,

(1) to me, an extra 9 minutes before one can rest does not equate to sitting around a campfire all day - indeed, it actually helps me with the immersion, I have often felt like screaming at the screen - "He cannot be tired, we only rested 10.01 minutes ago!"

(2) Players of spellcasters are going to scream unfair, players of non-casters are going to say 'about time'. I'll be interested to see what the responses to this thread will be (and the characters that those people play in game). Also, at high levels I would have thought the non-spellcasters were dependent on the spellcasters for buffs so would be equally affected by this change anyway?

No flaming/criticism from me (maybe more thoughts later when I have time), everyone will have an opinion I'm sure, better it starts with someone who is open to hearing reasons than not.

iceyfire · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2007, 10:34:08 pm »

I wont lie and say it doesnt hurt spellcasters the most... Sure its a interesting way of going about it... but what class needs to rest more then a spellcaster?
We have limited amounts of spells sure it does put a lot in the way of dropping down our alround usefulness, but hey we already had wild magic zones and what not to do that already for us.
It slows down some quests to aswell i found, during pseudonyms quest last night, i had to wait a good bit of time before i could swap out my spells to get my dispelling spells to hit a summoning circle for rp reasons..

Thats my critism if its not well founded i accept that but thats just my thoughts on the matter...
Its a big kick for spellcasters especially those who are powerful.

I can live with it... it just feels like another way of pushing spellcasters out of the picture when it comes to those memorable quests.

*edit* Not everyone plays the perfect spellcaster, my character cannot summon creatures because she is evocation focused so she really has to rely on her spells not her summons so dont bring those up.... It is this way for rp reasons.

AeonBlues · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2007, 10:44:53 pm »

*big thumbs up*

I think the new rest system promotes better RP.

I also just want to say, that some of the reasons behind this are the actions of a few. Like mages that blast all their spells to maximize XP from kills, and then demand rests. For the most part, we are all guilty of resting too often. Most players have fallen into the Rest, Buff, go kill more stuff. Which I think is a bad RP pattern. The only time we slow down is when someone is afk or crashes. So, this is why I like the new system. I think it promotes better RP, and makes Layo more consistent with PNP.

That being said, one of the draw backs is that this system is going to be harder on multi class characters. Many multi class characters are RP builds by the way. It is my experience, that it is characters built for RP that suffer most greatly when things are balanced to challenge the more powerful characters.

AeonBlues

merlin34baseball · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2007, 11:02:42 pm »

I appreciate the good natured responses so far, please keep them coming.

ShiffDrgnhrt · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2007, 11:05:22 pm »

FLAME!!!

Seriously, I donno how bady the rest system really affects people... Unless yer a Wiz thats trying to Solo places, I have yet to see the problem....

merlin34baseball · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2007, 11:06:54 pm »

Has nothing to do with soloing, it has to do with how long my protection spells work and how long I have until I can rest.

Which is keeping her alive... or did.

Halfwit Genious · « **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2007, 11:22:28 pm »

I'm just gonna give an honest opinion. Being a high level caster myself I can understand how it hurts the casters. It doesn't bother me to much because I'm a pure caster build and therfore my spells last as long as it takes me time to rest. However, I'm going to agree with Aeon in that it hurts the multi-classes a lot. I think it is nessecary to a point because I know I've been guilty as we all have of resting to often at times. I also think there can be a compromise. The 1 min. per lvl for anyone over 10th lvl is a bit harsh to said multi-classes. I would suggest something like capping the rest timer at 15 or something like that. It would still limit resting and support more RP but it would not kill the fun for so many. At least for a little while to see how it works.

Now I'd like to reply to Psuedo, who I hold in the highest respect... nothing against him just something to add on what he said about non caster classes needing the casters wards.

Yes that would have been true before the update but now there is a big freaking no magic zone with super nice items and good XP and fun monsters to fight where fighters and similar classes couldn't care less about having a mage with them, and I don't blame them. A mage has no reason to be there unless it's a good RP reason cause otherwise their just an XP leech. It makes mages useless and I think it's going to turn fighters into just what is trying to be undone to mages. They're gonna not need mages and be able go places all by themselves. It's probably to late for this but my suggestion here would to turn the no magic zone to an intermitent wild magic zone where like every other area would be wild magic or something like that... I dunno. At least that way the wards as Psuedo said would still be useful but casters would be severely limited as far as fighting power. I guess the point is casters will be left in the dark at least till people get bored of the no magic area in the current situation.

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #9 on:** August 20, 2007, 11:31:00 pm »

Quote from: Pseudonym

I have lots of thoughts about this mate (without the time right here and now to put them all down) but two quickies,

(2) Players of spellcasters are going to scream unfair, players of non-casters are going to say 'about time'. I'll be interested to see what the responses to this thread will be (and the characters that those people play in game). Also, at high levels I would have thought the non-spellcasters were dependent on the spellcasters for buffs so would be equally affected by this change anyway?

Really? If it were me I'd be using all of my "extend slots" on personal buffs and leaving the rest to the rest. If you ask me, that kinda hurts non casters.

AeonBlues · « **Reply #10 on:** August 20, 2007, 11:46:24 pm »

I agree with what Halfwit is saying about the GIANORMOUS no magic zone. It makes mages and some clerics almost worthless. That area gets a *big thumbs down* It is nice looking though

AeonBlues

Dorganath · « **Reply #11 on:** August 21, 2007, 12:18:07 am »

My own injection into this discussion.

This rest timer change was implemented as a balance measure. This is not meant to punish anyone, but rather break the rather monotonous grind of buff-bash-rest-repeat. It changes the dynamic of spellcasters who perhaps can no longer expend all their explosive might in a short burst, rest, and do the same thing over and over again. Likewise, it introduces a new dynamic for those who depend on casters for buffs and protections, for those things may wear out before the rest timer has expired.

Once more for emphasis, it's not meant to punish anyone. If anything, it should encourage more thoughtful tactics and less of the usual grind...and maybe some additional RP.

Myself, I have a multi-classed caster, whose spells already have a hard time reaching the rest timer as it is. As such, even before this change went in, I learned how not to deplete myself of all spells except in the most dire of circumstances. So it can be done.

Anyone who has played D&D in a PnP setting might remember how the length of time a caster had to rest/study/pray was dependent upon how many spells and of what level they were. The metric our group used was 15 minutes per spell level. So 4 1st level spells or 1 4th level spell could be regained in an hour. So what would happen is the whole group would make camp and hang out while the casters got their mojo back. And yeah, game time would move forward while we did, so it was a choice to be made. Also, combat buffs usually lasted for what? One battle? No roaming the countryside with 20 buffs at the ready...which brings me to another point.

The first time you go somewhere, you get prepared as much as you can and get ready for trouble early. After going a couple of times, you learn that you don't really need your buffs right away, and in fact you can go with only a few (or none) until certain spots. Things like this can elongate the usefulness of casters even if the durations don't overlap with the rest timers.

At any rate, these comments above are meant for discussion...so please, discuss.

To repeat a comment of mine that has been given above, this has been on-line for about 24 hours now. Take some time and adjust to it...give it a few days, perhaps a week. We're not opposed to adjusting things, but really...one day of experiencing the system is not enough.

And remember...this isn't to punish anyone or marginalize anyone, but rather to help with the overall balance.

Carry on!

ystrday · « **Reply #12 on:** August 21, 2007, 12:29:47 am »

I normally do not reply to most posts, but being a high level spell caster myself I was surprised and irritated at first with the new rest system. Not sure why it was implented, but now thinking about it I find it may work well. I had to learn as I was RPing and bringing up my character how to reserve spells and not just go out and toss everything out in the first and second battle, but pace yourself. I appreciate those players, who showed me by example, it taught me alot.

Try to use everyone's talent, and for the spellcaster find a way to help your party in the no magic/wild zones then just standing there like a bump on a log doing nothing. To often I've seen the buff, attack and rest.. repeat. In the end this will get people to stop and work as a team and not take spells for granted.

Chongo · « **Reply #13 on:** August 21, 2007, 12:38:38 am »

I had a big response and I think it's more useful to just paste on paragraph of the 231 pages and despite how many points are proven... they get lost in me being wordy.

This is my opinion as a player.

I've had 5 fantastic campfires with groups in the past 24 hours. This is totally changing the dynamic of adventure roleplay and, to me, this is the key point in all of this. People have gotten used to a sprinting tempo. This is changing it, and sometimes the only way to change a server-wide mentality is to rattle the the cage so everyone inside wakes up. I personally need a good reminder to slow down a bit and break in the middle of that giant expedition. If anyone is able to step up and state they didn't feel that rushed tempo when the 'battle' portion of the game began, I will be astonished. Yes, in a perfect world timers aren't needed. But this isn't perfect, there are varying styles, and there are the considerations of how you respect the tempo of the group you are in. And it's proven, the group takes the upper end of the tempo every time. It is so hard to slow things down, we've had 10 minute rest timers for years and years and years. This has bred a number of problems in general balance, and the overall tempo of the game. And we are wildly used to it which is going to cause a lot of system shock. Over the years this server has adapted to a mentality directly resulting from this timer. This statement may seem extreme, but again, if anyone can stand up and say they don't feel that tempo, by all means correct me. Adventure time is mostly non-roleplay time, and roleplay time is bench time. Why does roleplay have to be limited to a city? Why when we are in the most scary of places where emotion should be wildly apparent, is there naught but what you can type in as you sprint? This is an issue and I appreciate the cage rattle.

I'm enjoying the campfires. I just wish we had tents we could set up too.

Chongo · « **Reply #14 on:** August 21, 2007, 12:47:58 am »

Quote from: AeonBlues

I agree with what Halfwit is saying about the GIANORMOUS no magic zone. It makes mages and some clerics almost worthless. That area gets a *big thumbs down* It is nice looking though

AeonBlues

Ahhh... I have to. My more mature post is above and prior to this response. The audacity of citing this cracks me up. I've spent the last 4 years growing accustomed to standing back beyond enemy spell range on my caster because the group was more effective in many cases if our lone caster didn't buff, but instead went towards full attack spell slots. I am positive I grunted annoyed in these cases, but I also resigned myself to understanding that I am not the most powerful asset in *all* cases, and I did do what I could to add my piece to the group, which was usually killing the remaining two creatures that were standing their dazed, and trying to do it fast enough because I didn't have buffs, and they did have wail of the banshee... while the caster in the group set himself up for the next encounter. I built the thunder peaks to give one... just *one* region of the world where the roles changed. And hey, one of the most valuable people, and definitely the most appreciated, in a group today was Katrina, a full caster, who used the heal potions to keep us all alive. So at least she gets this.

LynnJuniper · « **Reply #15 on:** August 21, 2007, 01:46:43 am »

Dorg:

I agree with the intentions of this, to avoid: Bash rest bash same spells bash rest same spells.

My solution personally would've been to actually de-nerf the other spells for some versatility, but hey, that may actually be a future plan for all I know

.

It was originally said: lets see how this goes..so that's what Im going with for now...>_> That may be a bit selfish though; personally whenever I rested in UD getting emeralds or anything else, I always had atleast six offensive spells left..

Xirion · « **Reply #16 on:** August 21, 2007, 01:48:24 am »

Hm... so where do I start?
At firts none of my two chars is really affected by the change (one is lvl9 and one is lvl7) but I can understand Merlin's Problem aswell as I understand dorg. Yes, RP duriong the adventures is great. It adds a lot of fun and makes the adventures unique. I would really appriciate if this change helps to establish more of this.
I have a suggestion (it came to my mind and I post it without having thought to much abou it, so please be kind;) )
Whats if only the highest class would be relevant? So a lvl 15 Mage/5 Rogue would have a rest timer of 15? And maybe an addition that say at least a rest timer of lvl-5 (so would be 15 for that example aswell). That would matter for caharacters with nearly equally high leveled classses or with three classes. So 5wizzard 5fighter 10spellsword would be allowed to rest every 15minutes although the highest class has only 10 levels.

That was my idea and my point of view, thanks for reading and thanks for all posters sofar that keept the thread an discussing and non-flaming thread, please keep on!

>Xirion<

merlin34baseball · « **Reply #17 on:** August 21, 2007, 03:29:01 am »

Everyone is being constructive! Very good!

I am enjoying the feedback...

Seriously...

Keep it up! We might find common ground yet!

Skywatcher · « **Reply #18 on:** August 21, 2007, 03:37:00 am »

I personally like the new timer as it makes the normal day to day play more like a quest. In a quest you have a GM deciding where it makes RP sense for you to rest and the rest timer can effectively be an hour or more depending on the situation. It really makes you consider what you really need most for each situation and plan for contingencies. Much more challenging. I think the only thing that really needs to happen in conjunction with this is to ensure that GMs understand that parties buffs will necessarily wear off in a dungeon at some time and the party will need to rest so to try to be careful and be aware of what types of encounters are used when its been a long time since the party rested and realize now that the impact of a disrupted rest is now much larger. As long as there is a balance of understanding that everyday is more like a quest now then I think things will be much more interesting overall with this system.

From an impact on combat power this affected me quite a bit too since many of the abilities that make Clarissa powerful are short duration and can only be used a certain number of times per day so now the higher level she gets the less effective she will be in this respect since the times per day don't go up.

So like I was saying, as long as GMs and players alike recognize that what this change means is that the effective combat pace of the server just dropped by half, everything will be fine and we will all just have to adjust to the slower combat pace.

I have found many times after a trip of adventuring realizing that the pace had been so fast that we hardly had time to talk or make anything of the adventure than just a grind. This change is welcome to me since it will force me to slow down and fill the non combat time with substance.

My two trues

Pseudonym · « **Reply #19 on:** August 21, 2007, 04:21:02 am »

Quote from: Skywatcher

... as GMs and players alike recognize that what this change means is that the effective combat pace of the server just dropped by half ...

Perhaps should be noted that this, of course, may be so for levels 20+ only. Doesn't make much difference to a lot of other people. Just as an aside.