A question about the Epic spell: Epic Warding

[Jonzer Hexblade]

Ok if that is true it clears things up a lot. Thanks.

[Reventage]

The following are prequisites for being able to take the Epic Warding feat:  1. Being Epic Sorcerer or Epic Wizard
  2. 34 ranks in Spellcraft
  3. The ability to cast 9th level spells.  Thusly being able to cast level 9 Cleric spells does not in any way make you eligible to pick the feat, nor does any amount of levels in the Bard class work towards earning it.  As an exception to these limitations is to have fifteen levels in the Pale Master class and making the SC requirement. This allows you to take the feat, even if you aren't an epic Wizard or Sorcerer or can't cast level 9 spells.

[Faldred]

Oops.  Missed that.

Thanks for the correct info... I'll just go off and hide for a while out of embarassment.

[Jonzer Hexblade]

In order to be considered an epic Sorcerer do you have to have 21 sorceror levels ar just 21st total with sorceror in there? Thanks for clearing that up Reventage.

[Reventage]

To be considered an Epic in one of the base classes you will need 21 levels in the class.  To be considered an Epic in one of the PrCs you need to have 11 levels in the class with the exception of the Harper Scout PrC in which you can only attain maximum of five levels. To be considered simply Epic you need 21 character levels, regardless of the combination of class levels you have.  So to be an Epic Sorcerer, you would need to have 21 Sorcerer levels.
   
  Say hello to NWN Wiki. If you can not find the information you need from Lore, NWN Wiki is the place for both generic and specific NWN information.    While not flawless and lacking in the way of Layonara custom info, they have detailed quite a few of the quirks in the NWN engine.

[Dorax Windsmith]

Am I mistaken, but the NWN manual says that Epic Warding is restricted to Bards Sorcerers and Wizards.  Is this a change in Layo to only be available to Sorcerers and Wizards?

[EdTheKet]

Dorax Windsmith - 8/8/2006  9:43 PM  Am I mistaken, but the NWN manual says that Epic Warding is restricted to Bards Sorcerers and Wizards.  Is this a change in Layo to only be available to Sorcerers and Wizards?

 The manual is wrong. And we haven't changed it for Layo. Check NWNwiki as Rev indicates.

[Dorax Windsmith]

Is Epic Mage Armor also only available to Sorcerers and Wizards?

[Acacea]

Yes.

[Talan Va'lash]

According to nwnWiki no epic spells are available to bards
 
  I have not tested this

[Filatus]

That's because bard's don't get 9th level spells. I'd imagine a bard with 15 palemaster levels and 34 ranks in spellcraft levels could. But yeah, how many bard/palemasters are there?

[Varnart]

Well, they could be like singers of death. You know, singing so bad it wakes the dead.

[Ar7]

*The bard is attacked by three highway bandits so he begins to sing in hope to make the bandits deaf or perhaps cause them pain so they would flee. Instead the bard´s awful song wakes 5 death knights who proceed to beat up the bandits. The bard´s joy from the unexpected turn of events is short lived as the disturbed undead, having quickly finished the bandits, then turn to the bard. Having kicked everyone´s butt they return to their honest and earned rest*

This situation just came to my mind after the last reply, don´t know why

[Polak76]

I have a few epic chars on an Aussie server, one being my old Ramanon (20 Wiz/20 Palemaster), the other a death knight (10 fight/ 10 wiz /20pale).  

Now Rev summed it up to perfection regarding the prerequisites.  However to answer someone elses question Bards can obtain all the Epic Spells if they take Palemaster past lvl 15 with the required SC.  THerefore in essence the manual is correct.
I've seen many Bard/PAles and Bard/Pale/RDD's all with the epic spell abilities.

Now Ar7 mentioned it as a Wizards dream spell...well he's absolutely right, its fantastic!!

While we all chat about the possibilities taking Palemaster Classes be warned that it is an extemely hard class to take, especially in layonara.  It means you'll be weaker for longer, have less spells, durations, powers etc...However when you get close to lvl 20 it really does start becoming something great.  My favorite class through life has been necromancers.  I really dont feel it's possible that I could make one and not take the class, just out of personal taste.

Happy hunting  

[Chongo]

Talan Va'lash - 8/8/2006  5:43 PM    According to nwnWiki no epic spells are available to bards
   
  I have not tested this 

 Bards are out of luck with default NWN rules applying.  I've tested this.  On the arena mods bard mixes take 15 PM for epic spells.... usually with some well rp'd paladin levels to boot.  16 pal, 5 bard, 19 PM... good times.  Can I submit for that??

[crazedgoblin]

Ar7 - 8/9/2006 4:46 AM *The bard is attacked by three highway bandits so he begins to sing in hope to make the bandits deaf or perhaps cause them pain so they would flee. Instead the bard´s awful song wakes 5 death knights who proceed to beat up the bandits. The bard´s joy from the unexpected turn of events is short lived as the disturbed undead, having quickly finished the bandits, then turn to the bard. Having kicked everyone´s butt they return to their honest and earned rest* This situation just came to my mind after the last reply, don´t know why

 but the clever bard uses his invisiblity and runs as the undead wake...

[Reventage]

Polak76 - 8/9/2006  8:58 AM
Now Rev summed it up to perfection regarding the prerequisites.  However to answer someone elses question Bards can obtain all the Epic Spells if they take Palemaster past lvl 15 with the required SC.  THerefore in essence the manual is correct.
I've seen many Bard/PAles and Bard/Pale/RDD's all with the epic spell abilities.

Yes, this is true. In this case however, the actual Bard class does not work toward gaining the epic spells. It only works towards gaining the Pale Master class.

So using my terminology, it is not the Bard class that gives you access to Epic spells. Thus it's correct to state that Bards don't have access to these aforementioned feats.

Pale Masters do, as it is the Pale Master class, regardless of base class, that allows you the access to epic spells.

Just because I know we all love semantics.

[Faldred]

Filatus - 8/8/2006  8:27 PM

But yeah, how many bard/palemasters are there?

I'm actually surprised there aren't more, when you stop to think about it.  A Pale Master basically emphasizes two things about the caster it is based upon -- combat abilities and summoning (specifically, undead).  A Bard is better at combat that the other arcane classes, and his special abilities tend to focus on bolstering allies, which pairs nicely with summoning.  Plus, the Bard gets two extra skill points per level, and access to the Use Magic Device ability, which can make up for some of the weaker spellcasting.

Ten levels of Bard (with a CHA of 18) will allow for casting 3 cantrips, 4 1st, 4 2nd, 3 3rd, and 1 4th per day (known: 5/4/4/4/2) -- Pale Master levels give additional spells per day at every other level, which will eventually allow for 5th and 6th level spell casting, though no spells known (the slots can be used for metamagic, however).  10 uses of bardsong (+2 AB, +2 damage, +8 HP, +1 skill, +1 save universal to allies [same values as penalties to enemies with Curse Song]), and a decent smattering of skills, including 10 free ranks of Lore from Bard levels.

By the time you hit level 20, you've picked up all of the non-epic Pale Master features while still having the spells per day of a 15th level Bard.  If you focus on buffing spells, you don't have to worry about the reduced save DC.

Under 3.5 rules, this would even make more sense.  You'd have the Bard's ability to ignore arcane spell failure in light armor.  The Pale Master is upgraded to allow for new spells known, as well as per day, and a greatly improved undead graft as compared to the NWN1 implementation.

[Ne'er]

Only thing is... how do you RP that? It would be very difficult, to say the least.

That's my guess as to why there are no palemaster/bards here.... yet.

[Faldred]

Ne'er - 8/9/2006  11:06 AM

Only thing is... how do you RP that? It would be very difficult, to say the least.

That's my guess as to why there are no palemaster/bards here.... yet.

I don't see how it is much different than a Wizard or Sorcerer.  On the whole, it would be closer to the Wizard path -- the Bard's study of lore leads him to be facsinated with the undead and the ability to control them.  he follows this obsession by persuing arts that most people think are vile and sacreligious.  I do note a distinct lack of necromancy spells in the Bard catalog, which could make things a bit more tricky, but it would still be possible.

The main reason I think you don't see them, is that PM appears to be a really, really, hard class to qualify for in Layonara.