A serious discusion about rules and spirit.

[jrizz]

I was talking with another player who is relatively new to the community and I was surprised at the lack of understanding of the spirit of Layonara. For those of us that have been here for many years and have transitioned through the many changes of the structure of Layo it has been a evolution in thinking. But to newer players there is not that foundation in the past. I think this is why every few years we run into the "but just tell me the rules" type of threads (I wrote a few myself). As I see it the team really does not want to write up a comprehensive set of rules covering every aspect of play. I think they went far out of the way not to do so. As Dorg and many others like to say if it feels wrong then dont do it. But while that works for players steeped in Layo history I am seeing it does not work for newer players. So I am opening this discussion for us to talk about what is the spirit of Layo? How do you see it as a player? and What do you do to support that spirit?

I will start by listing a few things as I see them:

1. Playing does not = getting XP
Yes NWN is a goal driven system but Layo does not have to be.
2. If a RP session is spontaneously happening go with it.
Yes it means that sometimes (hopefully most times) you wont be running off to kill things. But you will spend time talking about the events of the world or developing some depth to your PC. Interrupting a RP session or breaking away from one to go get XP is in my opinion not in the spirit of Layo.
3. Witty banter while running around killing things is super light weight RP at its best.
Take the time to stop and talk and enjoy the stories and company of who you are with. Of course there are times when you are just trying to barrel your way out of the deep so you don't have to log out down there .
4. Do interesting things with your PC when developing it.
You don't have to build a super perfect build every time.
5. Power leveling is not, again in my opinion, in the spirit of Layo.
It is not a race to 40th level. I know that at times many of us get caught up in that race but every level and stage is fun.

I have more to say but this is a start. I am trying to give the newer players insight into what each of us feels the spirit of Layo is.

[Filatus]

Well, I think a lot can be learned from fellow players. You're kind of talking about player etiquette the way I see it. I remember in my first week on Layo, I and a few other players had to be given a little nudge, when our rp which started good, degenerated in an ooc discussion about it being a shame brownies couldn't climb on tables in NWN. That one nudge from The Architect, thinking it was Orth's gm avatar, was more effective than the rules page.

I also like that you pointed out banter, which of course has a place in rp. But you have that whole quantity over quality syndrome, when rp'ing during long trips. It's better to talk a little less when fighting and have some depth, than have it degenerate into a repetition of the same jokes. But of course, some trips are very long and when things get rough in real life, people become quiet as well. I think it's kind of the result of feeling forced to put something in the chat window, to show you're not just clicking on the red creatures.

[miltonyorkcastle]

I know what you mean, J, because defining the "rules" of play here is more than just defining what you "can" and "can't" do. It's more about understanding the style of play and letting that guide you. Plenty of folks don't have a background in RP when they show up here, and then are surprised and caught off guard by certain conventions and rules we have in place. To that end, some of the recent additions to LORE have to do with introducing new players to the style and type of game we really play here.

You can direct new players to the [LORE]Beginners Guide to Layonara[/LORE] for a short overview of this game and world we call Layonara. And of course the [LORE]Role Players Guide to NWN[/LORE] is a must-read for this current incarnation of Layo.

[Ravemore]

Personally I think the "Spirit of Layo" boils down to flexibility and the fact there is a little bit here for everyone regardless of playing style. Yes, we are heavy RP and roleplay is both encouraged and rewarded by the GM Team, but others can find an equally satisfying time here and a place to call home.

Do you want to excusively roleplay your character on quests and increase your game levels and world presence without the endless hack and slash grinding... You can do that. In fact, I think there are a few characters that have pretty much received all of their levels via that route.

If you want to log in occasionally after a hard days work and relax with some crafting without having to interact with others... You can do that.

Do you want to run around and enjoy a little hack and slash and focus on xp... You can do that.

Do you want to buy a house and SIM out... You can do that too.

Do you want to roleplay in the forums because you love RP but do not have tons of time to do it in game... You can do that.

Do you want to make a big impact on the world we play in, stay relatively low key and in the background, or be a merchant... All here.

If you do any of the above on a frequent basis you're not going to be told your a bad person or be looked down upon. You will be missing out on a lot of fun though, and a lot of experienced players are going to attempt to draw you out to help you flex your creative muscles, but all in all you have flexibility, and for me that is the "Spirit of Layo." Just my two cents...

[Alatriel]

I think the big thing is that this is a rp-server.  It isn't a hack-and-slash server.  Yes, we have the means for it to be such, but that doesn't add anything to the community or the game.  And, as it was pointed out by Filatus in a recent other thread, if everyone did that, it would break the game.  Mechanically, no, but as Layo is... yes.  It's okay to log on every once in a while and just go bash as a stress relief, or go and play cards because you realized that the item you want is going to cost more than you have... and you need those coins quickly.  Doing all of the things that Ravemore mentioned occasionally is not the problem.  It becomes a problem when the overall pattern of existence in Layo has little to no depth, little to no rp at all, or interactions.   So, I disagree.  Yes, you can find a home here in Layo by doing those things, but we all gain things from this server, and it's important to give back to the community to add to the richness of the world, not just take from it.  You create a character and submit it.  You take the time to make the beginnings of a person with a history and a future, but what's the point of doing all that if their story ends with that submission, and its only purpose was to get you the key to our world?  The whole purpose of Layonara, in my opinion, is development.  As someone else recently said (and I can't remember who, I'm sorry) Layonara is a social simulation.  It's about interactions, choices, consequences, and learning.  Part of that is bashing, part of that is crafting, part of that is quests... but all of that is roleplay.  Roleplay isn't just encouraged.  It's a must, and it's an agreement we all made when we submitted a character.

[Ravemore]

We can agree that we disagree then. To each his own. I believe our disagreements go just as far in making our community healthy. I also think it is that exclusive mindset that has driven too many players away over time. The point I was making was that if someone chooses not to make the RP the pinnacle of their world, they will not be chased away or scorned. If they stick around long enough, the RP will follow. Submitting a character is in no way a "contract of adhesion" for playing style that must be followed, or else...

[Acacea]

Roleplay a character at all times, and don't stress about struggling with it at times, or hesitate in asking for help. Try to retain immersion for yourself and others, regardless of location or activity. If that is in the middle of the Deep, cool. If it's in the cardroom, cool. It's more than okay to not have an ideal mechanical build, as most people are happy to take anyone anywhere as long as they can contribute to a conversation, but remember that if your character's strengths are primarily non-mechanical, that there is nothing wrong with those whose strengths are in the numbers. Roleplay, get along (or don't, if it's appropriate), and you'll both have a place to show off.

It can hurt seeing people devastate creatures groups at a time if that's not your thing, but think on what your character does, and what situations he is meant for and try to find them, instead of making any knee-jerk comparisons or accusations. Don't stay forever in the thing you do best; trade places now and again so you can appreciate others in their element and they can come to appreciate you in yours. In order to do this, remember to play your weaknesses as well as your strengths; no one is the best at everything.

Not everyone wants to take over the world. If you are playing a character that is happy playing dice and flirting, no prob. Be mindful that efforts to include others in roleplay take many different forms, all of which are valuable, from gatherings with drinks, to war council sessions, to scheduling outings in which things may be hit until dead. If there is something in particular you want to do, try to create something appropriate to that task instead of trying to force a different one into that mold, for example making an Aeridinite instead of some other deity (or none) for the purpose of a martial playstyle. Many times everything revolves around how you do something, not so much what you are doing. This can take awhile to get the hang of.

Don't care too much what other people think of what you do, as long as what you do fits the character and your character is fit into the world. Encourage by example and don't be hasty to judge. Remember that characters are players and no one is 100% all the time, and leave IC issues in-game, and OOC conflicts out of it.

Also, try not to use the phrase "spirit of the server" because it is a little too kumbaya and a lot of people will quietly choke on it. It is also too often used as a weapon for everyone to be entirely happy about hearing it.  

[Dremora]

1. Playing does not = getting XP
Yes NWN is a goal driven system but Layo does not have to be.
2. If a RP session is spontaneously happening go with it.
Yes it means that sometimes (hopefully most times) you wont be running off to kill things. But you will spend time talking about the events of the world or developing some depth to your PC. Interrupting a RP session or breaking away from one to go get XP is in my opinion not in the spirit of Layo.
3. Witty banter while running around killing things is super light weight RP at its best.
Take the time to stop and talk and enjoy the stories and company of who you are with. Of course there are times when you are just trying to barrel your way out of the deep so you don't have to log out down there .
4. Do interesting things with your PC when developing it.
You don't have to build a super perfect build every time.
5. Power leveling is not, again in my opinion, in the spirit of Layo.
It is not a race to 40th level. I know that at times many of us get caught up in that race but every level and stage is fun.

IMO:
1: The way you've worded it is wrong. Playing doesnt always HAVE to be getting xp to have fun and some of my best moments on RP servers were devoid of any grinding. But unless you want your char to never develop at all and spend the majority of its time just being a simple ordinary guy that cant die.
Then get a group together and RP/grind at the same time. You can RP and get XP and have fun all at once. Or you can follow the example of Erin's character Rose Leigh who sometimes travels with groups, but ultimately takes her time developing as she is not an adventurer (correct me if wrong Erin). Both ways work.

2: I agree, go with it if you character is liable to do so.

3: Depends on the characters, depends on the enemies, depends on the banter.
For example a bunch of paladins going around laughing and chatting about whos got the most kills when slaying a clan of Kenku for being in there way to me is poor RP. A pack of mercenaries however are expected to be a littel heartless and cruel and so some referrence to that attitude is expected when facing off against fairly weak foes or after a victory.
This in contrast with characters who've never taken another man's life or who just had a decent fight then going "well that was easy and fun, lets find another". I can imagine non-evil characters having a little bit more emotion when it comes to killing another person, even in self-defence and aerindites might go as far as to even question themselves (if they are new) for taking another life away to the point of an emotional crisis and needing to go confess and speak to a higher priest or what not.
Though yes, take the time to stop and develop stories etc, but not everyone has enough time to complete a run and get back with indepth story taking (though Chongo arranged a trip with exactly this purpose in mind so Kudos) or things are going on irl as been stated before that make people quiet.. sometimes you just gotta get on with it XD.

4: Goes without saying, and is good advice to anyone who needed to hear it.

5: Its not in the spririt of layo no but expect some of it when there is nothing better to do or when some people simply just hate low levels or want to RP a less humble/tougher/deadly character. Call someone to kick their butt and remind them whos bigger then. *runs to pay Steel*
Powerlevelling as defined as constantly grinding without RPing and avoiding RP would be bad and should be against the rules. But if someone does both, i.e alot of grinding and alot of RPing (they may have more playtime than the casual gamer), then obviously time spent on a grind stacks and it should'nt be a penalty because they dont want to sit by themselves or expect them to RP their character in a way that doesnt fit the concept in order to fit into another group for RP.

As stated above, just my opinion

[jrizz]

Keep the opinions coming folks I can see a picture forming from the responses of what Layo is now.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

For me, Layonara is foremost a community. I have people here I consider better friends than the folks I've gamed with every Saturday night since highschool. I share with them a history of vicarious experiences through characters in a world rich with adventure.

The rules, for me, are foregone conclusions. They're the codification of things most of us already know, in the spirit of introducing the culture of this community to those unfamiliar with it, and providing for transparent administration of the community.