Religious/Mystical Classifications, Which one are you?

[lonnarin]

I'm running around wikipedia, cross referencing seemingly synonymous terms for divine casters and finding a great deal of taxonomic classification differentiating each term from the original mold.  Care to elaborate?  It seems that every cleric and druid is a mix of several of these roles.

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*Priest- A priest or priestess is a person having the authority to perform and administer religious rites. Their office or position is the priesthood, a term which may also apply to such persons collectively.

*Prophet- a person who has directly encountered a god, of whose intentions he can then speak.

*Druid-  The Druids were polytheists, but also edified elements of nature, such as the sun, the moon, and the stars, looking to them for "signs and seasons". They also venerated other natural elements, such as the oak, certain groves, tops of hills, streams, lakes and even plants, most of all, mistletoe. As such, they were not only polytheists, but also exhibited a certain degree of animism. Fire was regarded as a symbol of several divinities and was associated with the sun and cleansing.


*Shaman- Shamanism refers to a range of traditional beliefs and practices similar to Animism that claim the ability to diagnose and cure human suffering and, in some societies, the ability to cause suffering. This is believed to be accomplished by traversing the axis mundi and forming a special relationship with, or gaining control over, spirits. Shamans have been credited with the ability to control the weather, divination, the interpretation of dreams, astral projection, and traveling to upper and lower worlds. Shamanistic traditions have existed throughout the world since prehistoric times.  Some anthropologists and religion scholars define a shaman as an intermediary between the natural and spiritual world, who travels between worlds in a trance state. Once in the spirit world, the shaman would commune with the spirits for assistance in healing, hunting or weather management.

Shamanism is based on the premise that the visible world is pervaded by invisible forces or spirits that affect the lives of the living. In contrast to animism and animatism, which any and usually all members of a society practice, shamanism requires specialized knowledge or abilities. It could be said that shamans are the experts employed by animists or animist communities. Shamans are not, however, often organized into full-time ritual or spiritual associations, as are priests.

*Witchdoctor-A witch doctor often refers to healers that believe that maladies are caused by magic and are therefore best cured by it, as opposed to science or developed medicine.  The term does not, as is popularly believed, mean 'a doctor who uses witchcraft to cure'. It means a person who treats maladies caused by witchcraft. The term was originally used to signify the cunning folk, practitioners of folk magic who sold their services to ward off witchcraft or turn it back upon the supposed sender.

*Cleric- A cleric is a member of the clergy of a religion, especially one that has trained or ordained priests, preachers, or other religious professionals. The term "clerk" derives from "cleric", since in medieval times the clergy were one of the few groups who could read, and therefore were often employed to do bookkeeping and similar work. The term "clerical work" continues to this day to refer to such functions. ie: one who reads, writes and is a scholar of the sacred texts.

*Oracle- An oracle is a person or agency considered to be a source of wise counsel or prophetic opinion; an infallible authority, usually spiritual in nature. It can also be a prediction of the future, from the gods, that is spoken through another object or life-form. In the ancient world many sites gained a reputation for the dispensing of oracular wisdom: they too became known as "oracles", as did the oracular utterances themselves, whose very name is derived from the Latin verb orare, to speak.

*Medicine Man- "Medicine man" is an English term used to describe Native American spiritual figures; such individuals are often viewed by scholars concerned with these matters as being analogous to shamans. The 1954 version of Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, reflects the poorly grounded perceptions of the people whose use of the term effectively defined it for the people of that time: "a man supposed to have supernatural powers of curing disease and controlling spirits." (in contrast to a witchdoctor who merely cures magical maladies)

*Mystic- The primal difference between a mystic and a present day philosopher would be that a mystic works towards spiritual fulfillment where as a present day philosopher in some sense works towards academic recognition, i.e. their motivation for their chosen paths are different. A mystic just as every other thinker, wants to help make a difference in the world, but understands the limitations of language. A true mystic then tries to approach the situation by being mystical and hence truthful to himself in his actions.

*Soothsayer-A soothsayer is a person who speaks sooth: i.e., who speaks the truth. A typical soothsayer speaks the truth about the future. As such, soothsayers include:Prophets; Fortune tellers; Practitioners of divination; Oracles; Haruspices; Augurs; Astrologers; Shamans.  (seems equally inclusive of fortune tellers and people who "spread the word" with prophecies of things to come, like 7th Day Adventists)

*Auger- The Augur (pl: augures) was a priest and official in ancient Rome. His main role was to take auspices: interpreting the will of the gods by studying the flight of the birds (flying in groups/alone, what noises they make as they fly, direction of flight and what kind of birds they are), known as "taking the auspices." The ceremony and function of the augur was central to any major undertaking in Roman society--public or private--including matters of war, commerce, and religion. (seems to be one who investigates the will of gods through mystical and natural observation, in order to better follow them)

*Savior- refers to a person who helps people achieve Salvation, or saves them from something.

*Monk- a person who practices asceticism, the conditioning of mind and body in favor of the spirit. The concept is very ancient and can be seen in many religions.  The term monk comes from the Greek monachos (µ??a???), commonly translated as a solitary person. In the Greek language, the term can apply to men or women, but in English, it usually applies only to men, while nun is more commonly used to refer to female monastics. Other terms such as hesychast, solitary, hermit, anchorite, ascetic are usually interchangeable with monk. Although ascetics existed in various religions prior to Christianity, the term “monk” is of Christian invention.

*Friar- Friars differ from monks in that they are called to a life of poverty in service to a community, rather than cloistered asceticism and devotion. (St. Francis is a good example, as he donated all of his wealth to the church, took a vow of poverty and charity and walked among the people vs. the largely clerical and elitist priests of his time who lived in gilded halls.  These are the prototype for FR monks of Lathander)

*Saint- A saint is a term to refer to someone who is a holy person. The term originates with the Christian Roman Catholic church, but has grown to usage in be acceptable to use in other religious contexts — to refer to those who are considered to be exceptionally virtuous. Hence a "saint"  is a (usually deceased) person whose life is regarded by a community as a good example, and their life story is remembered for sake of inspiring others. Note well that Saints are never worshipped (worship is reserved for gods alone), but instead are venerated, respected, and viewed as role models.

*Martyr- a person who dies or suffers for their convictions or religious faith, such as during the persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire. Sometimes the term is applied to those who use violence, such as dying for a nation's glory during wartime (usually known under other names such as "fallen warriors"). The death of a martyr is called martyrdom

feel free to add operational definitions.  It's fun to see how things thought to be synonyms can be entirely different as well when you compare their specific roles.  These are mostly the faith-based ones, ie: divine spellcasters.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

All looks on the level, though I think an item of particular interest would be an untranslated version of Medicine Man.

[Chongo]

For the many of the divine casters on Layonara, you may want to start approaching from the crusader type ideology... since most seem eager to smite.

Great wealth of information there.  Opens up new perspectives on being a divine intermediary in roleplay.  I'd personally love to see a lot more variation on Layo such as this presents.

[AeonBlues]

I would say there should be a place for witch as opposed to witch doctor.  I would be referring to the people that practice the religion of Wicca.  Perhaps this is not relevant as witches tend to represent many of the classifications listed above.  One I know of would even represent all of them.  In 14th century Italy there was a woman by the name of Aradia.  She founded the Wiccan faith called Strega.  She organized witches into covens (religious organizations consisting of 13 members) so that they could continue the faith and survive the burning times.  She was reasonably successful too.  There are many fascinating stories with this one.  One off hand, she was captured by the roman priests and sentenced to be executed.  She seduced a roman guard, and then summoned a storm to aid her allies in her successful rescue.

Well, she probably could not be considered a Monk.

The gospel of the holy strega could inspire many D&D adventures, and provide a good list of creative names.  The only place I know of to obtain a good version of this, is the Sacred Grove in Santa Cruz CA.  http://www.psifly.com/alt/grove/

Witch by the way is gender neutral.  A warlock is an evil witch of either gender.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Gee, what buzzwords. I won't get into this in too much detail here, Aeon, but that entire story is little more than a myth. The "origin" of groups of thirtteen has many roots, in quite a few different civilizations - anything you hear of a single definitive source is a myth, and that's being charitable.

In NWN, a cleric of Aeridin is close enough to most of the wiccan-esque healers I know.

And on your last point... Different labels mean different things to different people. In the end, they're just words, and if you try to apply labels across such a diverse group as the members of neo-pagan faiths and practitioners of various mysticisms, you can end up with WitchWars (flamewars, but with neopagans, most of whom should know better).

Attempting to spread information like that... I won't say it's foolish, but the dissemination of misinformation can lead to some bad things. (To use an overly cliche'd example, the Salem Witch Trials.)

[darkstorme]

....To use an overly cliche'd example, the Salem Witch Trials.

Where, I might add, no Wiccans were burned, as the religion didn't yet exist.  Understand that this is not meant as an attack on Wicca or Paganism, but merely re-enforcing the point that SZ made - the story is a myth.  It was popularized by Charles Godfrey Leyland in a book written in 1899 entitled Aradia, or the Gospel of the Witches.  This book served as inspiration to the founders of the modern religion known as Wicca, Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente, so much so as to become part of the liturgy of the religion.

The book details and summarizes an Italian text on Witchcraft (probably dating no earlier than the 17th century, since there are/were few other surviving texts from earlier - Renaissance texts are so rare as to be virtually unheard of) entitled the Vangelo.  Leyland's book, in addition to transcribing a number of spells from the text, included a few of the myths - most notably, that Diana (the Roman goddess of the moon, still much revered in Europe and England despite Christianity's level attempts to quash such reverence) sent her daughter, Aradia, to teach escaped slaves and serfs witchcraft, that they might "destroy their oppressors".

Whether or not a woman by the name of Aradia existed, and whether or not (as Leyland hypothesized) small pockets of witchcraft practicioners persisted in Europe to the mid-30s, this book and similar materials were the basis of Gardner's creation, Wicca.  Prior to his 1954 publication of its tenets following the British repealing their anti-witchcraft laws, there were no Wiccans save himself and those he taught.  If Aradia existed as a mortal, rather than divine progeny, she practiced Witchcraft, not Wicca.

There is one major inconsistency I can see with the story you repeated offhand, as well.  You said that Aradia lived in the 14th century (late Dark Ages, early Renaissance) - at which point, Roman priests and Roman guards would be those individuals who lived in the city of Rome... part of Italy.  There were no more centurions, no gladiator battles, which the language you used seems to suggest.  The Roman Empire was gone, transformed into a more modern Italy.  It may just be a miswording, but it seems strange.

Finally, "warlock" may mean whatever you wish in RL - but in D&D, it's a class unto itself.  Now, I'm the first to admit it's an unbalanced class, but evil is not a given.

(

[AeonBlues]

To Darkstorme: Roman, as in Roman Catholic.  I meant the priests of the great theologicle Empire.  But anyway, if people can beleive in Juesus, I can beleive in Aradia...    her and Emma Goldman are my biggest heros.

To Stephen: Yah, I hear religions are largely based on myths and fabols.  I imagine people can find better reasons to burn me at the stake then worshiping the goddess mother earth.    I use to live with a priest of Strega, so I sory if you think I am full of ox dung.  Interesting guy actualy.  When ever he got mad about something, he'd start tossing sap into a cauldren that had a small fire in it.  The smoke would fill up the entire house.  "The three times law is a system of payment."

Aeon

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

I don't think you're full of ox dung, don't worry. Your beliefs are perfectly valid; I was just pointing out the fact that the mythos you quoted was as full of holes as the Abrahamic (I believe that is the correct term) traditions. This isn't a bashing battle... Just me pointing out what I've learned.

There are reasons I'm nonreligious. Spiritual, aye, but nonreligious.

Anyway, to re-rail this topic, it's certainly a useful resource that's been posted here for those curious as to exactly what to call thier character.

I'm thinking of making a friar-type character, actually.

[darkstorme]

You could train up with rod and bow and when he's an expert fisherman, he'd then become a fish friar!  Then, you need only find a potato-digging chip monk, and you'd be in business.  Liturgical fish and chips. *grins wickedly*

And Aeon - I didn't mean to disparage a belief in a mythical figure - simply to point out that to refer to her as the founder of Wicca is inaccurate.  She is an individual upon whose myth the Wiccan religion was constructed in the mid-20th century, and I'm inclined to believe (as with most myths) that she was a real person.  Whether or not she did what the myth says is up for debate (as with any religion), but there probably was once a woman named Aradia.

[AeonBlues]

Ok it took me a while to bend my brain around this historical inaccuracy issue.  First of all, Strega would be a branch of the Wican tree.  The reason is that if you talk to any follower of Wican beliefs, their religion dates back to the last ice age or something extreme like that.  The way I see it, this is the difference between history and herstory.  The Wican religion is based not on any one book, but a legacy of oral traditions, which this book you refer too was based on.  Ever since patriarchal cultures rose to power, they have systematically destroyed other systems of beliefs by murder, book burning, redefining holidays and religious figures, and re writing history.

To illustrate my point, lets look at Christopher Columbus.  Discovered America, right?  Not, this is an obvious historical inaccuracy.  He was the first white Christian to discover the America’s.  Besides the fact that people settled the America’s at about 50,000 BC, there is clear and confirmed archeological evidence to demonstrate that the Norse had settlements in Canada around 750 AD.  There are also statues in South America depicting African looking faces.  This leads many to suspect that the Egyptians, who were really into boats, made it as far as South America.  So when you read history books, you have to realize that history is just a lie made up by some war like people that want to make them selves look superior and righteous.   Reference “Lies my history teacher taught me in school.”

Aeon Blues “I have the aeon blues.  From the top of my pyramid, to the bottom of my Nike shoes.”

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Alright... The original traditions of european druidism, which the neopagan religion Wicca is based on, are all but dead - lost, like the location of the fabled Atlantis (though we all knew that the city just used the Ancients' technology to go to another galaxy, leaving behind the Stargates in this one for use by Richard Dean Anderson - yes, this is a joke).

The tales are mostly forgotten, and those that still live are almost all in Gaelic, a language I could never figure out.

Besides, two more points. One, talking to most "followers of Wiccan beliefs" will yeild (and I wouldn't say it if it weren't true) confused teenagers who got thier information from a website, or thier friend who bought a spiffy looking book on witchcraft at Barnes & Noble. Second, let's get this thread back on track. This isn't for the discussion of what is and isn't really true about ANY faith. This is for interesting names for different types of religious practitioners, that can be used in RP.

That's it. Just a nifty little resource for RP. If you want to start a thread discussing religion, well... It's likely to be locked, as I believe that religion and politics are the two topics banned on this board, like many other boards.

And for good reason. Discussion gets far too heated in that sort of thing.

[Yllyrryon]

Lonn started this thread with an informative and interesting post giving a set of terms and definitions he researched on the web.  It is my understanding that Lonn offered this as food for thought to spark discussion among those playing divine casters on Layo - as to what kind of personna or combinations thereof best describes their character.l

I've enjoyed reading this thread, but please stay on-point.  We're not weighing or testing religious, mystical, or metaphysical concepts here.

[AeonBlues]

I am sorry.  I was just trying to illustrate that Witchcraft maybe should be on that list, and then fell into the debate thing.  I won't let it happen again.

Aeon

[Yllyrryon]

Well I don't want to come across as claiming any authority I don't have.  

I'm a player and community member, but not on the Team,  the members of which +do+ have the authority to regulate these forums.

I offered the admonishment because it seemed the discussion was taking the thread in the direction of being frozen.

[Yllyrryon]

As for Ael, he's a mystic and philosopher.

*Mystic- The primal difference between a mystic and a present day philosopher would be that a mystic works towards spiritual fulfillment where as a present day philosopher in some sense works towards academic recognition, i.e. their motivation for their chosen paths are different. A mystic just as every other thinker, wants to help make a difference in the world, but understands the limitations of language. A true mystic then tries to approach the situation by being mystical and hence truthful to himself in his actions.

I guess I'll supplement and modify this definition to clarify my point.  Mystics rely on inuition and insight to ascertain fundamental truths, while philosophers rely upon reason and observation.  Ael relies on all of these in his quest for enlightenment.  

Recognition, academic or otherwise, even notoriety, mean nothing to him.  It is a personal walk and an inward journey.  Perhaps this inward journey may have external, measurable effects.  The nature and extent of these effects remain to be seen.

Both Ael and Krys refer to themselves as warriors, and the monk class in nwn is a type of warrior.

Krys is more of a gifted martial artist who will rise to heights of great technical mastery, yet who will lack the insight to get to the core of such concepts as enlightenment, non-duality, etc.  Though I still intend to have him explore fundamental questions that arise in the course of his life.

Again, in mentioning these last two concepts as examples (enlightenment and non-duality) I'm drawing from real life systems, but I'm doing my best to explore them from the perspectives of my characters, +within+ the fantasy realm of Layonara.

[darkstorme]

Well, under the D&D system, the monk seeks purity through physical perfection, with martial arts being a means to an end.  Not really a "holy" figure, most of the time, simply one who contemplates the greater wisdoms through focus on the lesser.  This fits neatly with the classic concept of the monk, though less with the Franciscans and similar Christian organizations.

An example of a fairly well-written monk would be Danica in Salvatore's Cadderly series... much as the man has trouble with depth of character at times, the focus and dedication, purely non-pious, of Danica well-represents the aesthetic that D&D monks are expected to have.  Their wisdom and exploration of the metaphysical, I feel, is secondary.

[Yllyrryon]

There was a thread a while back discussing players' views on monks and roleplaying/developing them in Layo:

http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21308&start=1&posts=7&highlight=Monk&highlightmode=1