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Author Topic: An Open Letter to Leanthar  (Read 496 times)

Ozy_Llewellyn

An Open Letter to Leanthar
« on: July 21, 2007, 11:32:41 pm »
An Open Letter to Leanthar

"Because of the nature of the quest and what the result could be there are a few WL's that will have the focus on them. That is not a favoritism thing ( sad I even have to say that ), it is the nature of the quest and what the end result may be." - Leanthar: http://forums.layonara.com/calendar.php?do=getinfo&day=2007-8-19&c=3

Dear Leanthar

This is favoritism. There is no other way to put it. However that said it is also of the justified variety. Please in the future honestly admit that the quest’s focus will be on established players. With that said I must also state that I approve of your explanation that there is a reason behind this choice; that being that they may have some negative results. So this is a simple request from a long time player; remove the 'That is not a favoritism thing ( sad I even have to say that )'. I would rather approach the quest with the knowledge that people whom have invested over a thousand hours into the server will get theirs, then approach it with you being a limp noodle because you’re stricken with terror that rewarding some diligence openly will cause the community to go up in arms. Thus I propose this revision:

"Because of the nature of this quest, and what could be the various results in what I have tentatively planned. There are a few longstanding players, some of which are World Leaders ( WL's ) that will have the focus of the quest on them. This is because, the nature and history of their characters and their immediate and long running future could be seriously endangered. As a quest and series it is not only about these individuals and will affect everyone, therefore your participation in this quest is critical for it to succeed. So please approach this quest with the attitude to help your fellow players, as someday it will be you, not may but will."

Now I may poke fun of such a statement, but I really can't find anything genuinely wrong with it. In the past you have stressed that your quests are about the world, and effect everyone in it. Sometimes people could use a reminder that the quests are, and that people whom have stuck it out a long time will have sometimes RP clot. Also I suspect a reminder that a healthy community is one where people try and help each other succeed instead of being purely self serving.I have made this an open letter so that any whom think they can do better than me can take a try. That and so that those that will violently disagree can have their chance to call me a buffoon in some great pretty way.

Sincerely with Respect
Ozymandias/Jason

P.S. I know I could of worded things more eloquently. So feel free to edit what I've said in your head a little to be more palatable. Such as 'focus will be on part' or the like, you know normal procedure when dealing with me.
 
The following users thanked this post: Talan Va'lash, Acacea, Stephen_Zuckerman, Tanman

Skywatcher

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2007, 04:58:07 am »
I guess I might disaggree with your assertion that this is favoritism.  Favoritism implies that the reason someone gets something is purely because the person giving it likes them better than someone else.  In this case it is true that certain players will get a higher degree of focus but not because they are the favorites but because, as you say, they have earned the right with many many hours of involvment and development to get where they are.  It might be a knit pick but it seems clearer to think of it that way to me.
 

Varka

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2007, 05:49:44 am »
I will agree with Skywatcher, giving a simple example.
I spend over 2,5 years working on Bloody Gate. Would it concern Bloody Gate and being the Warlord of Bloody Gate I wouldnt like some 3 orcs/shandonties etc. make some decision for the future of BG just simply because they are the majority.

With that said, YES this is really subjective but I think personally that those "have earned the right with many many hours of involvement and development IC"...  I thought this way when I began Layo and I keep to it.

Favouritism due to OOC is not right...favouritism due to IC is right - there is a huge difference there. (said in another way compared to Skywatcher)
 

Talan Va'lash

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2007, 06:48:51 am »
I'm also going to have to disagree for semantic reasons, which I believe ozy will appreciate.

Quote
fa·vor·it·ism      /?fe?v?r??t?z?m, ?fe?vr?-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fey-ver-i-tiz-uhm, feyv-ri-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun  [table=head;sort=1a,2,3]1.|the favoring of one person or group over others with equal claims; partiality: to show favoritism toward the youngest child.
[/table]  [table=head;sort=1a,2,3]2.|the state of being a favorite.
[/table]
From: favoritism - Definitions from Dictionary.com

The key distinction is (emphasis added):
Quote
...person or group over others with equal claims;

In this case, characters with strong IC ties to the events in question would have a "greater claim" to said role in them.
 

Pseudonym

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2007, 06:52:26 am »
As I start this post I don't know whether what I end up saying will be either great or pretty, but be that as it may ... :)

Ozy, you don't post very often so when you do I assume it is because it is regarding a subject you find to be of relative importance or significance. In this case, I think i'm kinda missing the point. Your suggested revision to L's calendar post, to my way of interpreting it anyway, seems to address your different definition of the word favoritism to his.

What's it matter how it's worded? L's version or yours. Who cares? I'm one of those players whose character will have zero impact on any world shaping plot quest. I'd like to think that however L decides to run his event and whichever PC he decides to focus upon during said event, he has his good reasons for doing so. I, for one (and i'd like to think I was representative of the community versus being an exception) don't really need a more diplomatic wording of what may occur during the event than he has already provided.

I can really only speak for myself here, but I imagine those other players I have come to know well would feel much the same ... I'll/we'll deal with it!

Having said all that, I read your post as having been written from a perspective of thoughtfulness and concern, so as a member of the community for whom I guess you were trying to clarify why L will do whatever he does, thanks to you.
 

Dorganath

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2007, 09:56:44 am »
Let's please not all dog-pile on Ozy (or anyone else for that matter) for expressing his opinion.  Right or wrong, agree or disagree, he's entitled to it and we don't need this turning into a semantic debate.

Whether someone may or may not agree with the wording of Leanthar's calendar entry, I think we all understand the meaning.

And hey....there's a plot quest, and another chance to be part of something big, even if your part is small. :)
 

Interia_Discordius

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2007, 10:57:02 am »
I figured the main reason L even mentioned the no, this isn't favoritism thing is because of the fact the rumors of favoritism have been plenty lately, and it was a precaution. No, it isn't favoritism, and we've all stated reasons why it isn't. I just figured we were all agreeing on the same point with different views of that point ourselves.
 

LynnJuniper

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2007, 12:04:10 pm »
" What's it matter how it's worded? L's version or yours. Who cares? "

The way things are worded, due to the lack of any other sort of communication (Body language, tone of voice , etc) is actually, extreamly important in an online community such as this, maybe second only to 'actions' which in the end are nothing more than words as well.

The way things are worded breeds perception, perception breeds a certain image, and that image dictates individually weather or not we trust the person in question.

Example: If I come off as patronizing in a debate, even without meaning to, the perception is a lack of respect, and eventually that can lead to a lack of trust amongst other things.

If Leanthar, the team, or someone of the playerbase words something in a way that fouls up perception or image , then they're on their way to fouling up trust; Which is why I've expressed before, in a different outlet my opinion that the team needs to work on their image. What Ozy suggested would be a good start.

If you think I'm biased in my opinion, then so be it; you have much to learn.

PS: Talan could you elaborate a bit weather here or elsewhere? I was under the assumption that as players , and contributers to a bigger community, we all were equal and therefore had 'equal claim'. If this is not true then I must seriously reconsider my perceptions once more.

" Favouritism due to OOC is not right...favouritism due to IC is right - there is a huge difference there."

Varka & Others: I do not think there is any argument on the intentions of Leanthar's words, simply the fact that the words themselves may breed mispreception, which may lead to a lot of other things we're seeing in the community as of late.
 

Falonthas

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2007, 12:08:56 pm »
i think i can sum it up without all the rugamarole


WOOO HOOOO  PLOT QUEST!!!!
 

Ozy_Llewellyn

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2007, 12:21:49 pm »
The first reply: As my dictionary, a copy of "Webster's" does not include favoritism, merely favor/favorite with the traditional little -er -ism -ing. I was considering, and thus use all its definitions, positive and negative as one. With ways of interpretation and application applying to them all. A person can favor both unfairly and fairly. However stating that people whom have worked hard will be favored fairly then stating this is not favoring is rather irritating to say the least.

Yes second reply that is the entire point of the post. You earned the influence around Bloody Gate, therefor you have the role play clot to influence its direction. Things that happen to it directly concern you, and events around it will be a greater priority to you.

To the third, well "Webster's" didn't have Favoritism. Just Favor/Favorite and I can never remember where dictionary.com manages to find its reference, I hardly use it. I of course appreciate semantics, as without them we would need only one symbol to express everything. Maybe I need to buy a newer dictionary also, but this one is still in pretty decent shape.

To the Fourth: Please define anything you have ever done in your life without words. Words make civilization work and therefor must be chosen carefully, I myself am still not certain how well I can twist words to be coherent.

To the Fifth: I have always found semantics are key to being fully understood. I also lean on the side of 'wrong' most of the time. That and I invited said dog pile in the final paragraph. Of course after hearing about a few things said in IRC last night I get a good giggle out of the two people whom applauded my post, so that makes it worth having made.

To the Sixth: Yes indeed, and if he hadn't said 'No this isn't favoritism' I wouldn't of gotten irritated. Either be straight forward about what is going down, or say not a thing and let it be. I'm instantaneously suspicious of anyone whom states that they are not doing something. Given I'm also suspicious about people whom say they will be doing something.

To the Seventh: Hrmm, I actually don't have anything to say... Uhm better grammer then me.

To the Eighth: Indeed, much in the way of hurrah.

Anyway that is the one letter from me you will get on this subject. I tend to feel it fair to explain myself one time after I make a post when needed. To anyone whom speaks after this, well I am certain I will find your responses either thought provoking or amusing.

Back to lurking with me.
 

osxmallard

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2007, 12:27:17 pm »
Quote from: LynnJuniper

If you think I'm biased in my opinion, then so be it; you have much to learn.


Unnecessary and unconstructive comment if you actually wished to debate the issue.  Do you think that talking down to people in this manner boosts your intelligence and compels them to listen?

You are beginning to remind me of another poster with questionable social skills.
 

LynnJuniper

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2007, 12:38:32 pm »
Quote from: osxmallard
Unnecessary and unconstructive comment if you actually wished to debate the issue.  Do you think that talking down to people in this manner boosts your intelligence and compels them to listen?

You are beginning to remind me of another poster with questionable social skills.


I had many incarnations of a reply to this concern. I went through them all in my head and now am only left with the resounding cry of "I don't care."  If you have problems, take it up in your own time in private. Or start a new 'I hate you!!!' thread or something, haven't seen a good PM like that in my inbox for a whole 2 weeks.
 

Dorganath

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2007, 12:43:06 pm »
People please....this is getting out of hand.

That Leanthar even had to mention the part about WLs and/or long-time characters having a significant role in the upcoming quest is the sad part, not how he chose to word the comment.  

But we all know that if he hadn't there would have been rumblings of that very thing...that Leanthar is handing out some special prize to the "favored". I'm not sure when or how it started, but it wasn't always that way.  People went on plot quests because they are interesting and helped to shape the world in very real ways. And yeah, they were fun, even if we didn't always succeed.  Somewhere along the way, that changed.

Maybe the Team needs to work on its image, but so to does the community need to cut it some slack.  When people are hanging on every word, ready to dissect it and apply meaning where none exists, it makes the Team not want to communicate at all, which is almost where we're at right now, and that's not healthy.  For whatever fault lies with the Team about its perception within in the Community at this point, equal responsibility lies with the Community for making assumptions, passing rumors and so forth.  It's a two-way street. The Team, you remember, is also part of the Community.  Mutual respect would go a long way.

For all the claims of favoritism or special favors or whatever that I've heard over the last couple years of being a GM, perhaps 1 out of 10 (or more) have any basis in fact.

So please, all...let us not turn this expression of an opinion, something he was well within his rights to do, and blow it up into a larger debate and semantic dissection about what, exactly, is meant by "favoritism".  It will serve no purpose except to inflame things and bring further division.

Once more, let's understand what Leanthar meant, and I think we're all smart enough to know that, rather than obsess over the exact phrasing he used to say it.

And really....Plot quest! Sign up, have fun, shape the world and earn the right to say, "Yeah, I was there!"  So what if you are not the catalyst of change or the driving force?  You can still say you were there and make whatever contribution that you were able. Sometimes the weak guy in the back might get lucky by flicking a rock that ends up in the bad guy's eye.

Go!  Enjoy!  And if someone else gets to be the "leader" then so be it.  Be part of the solution!
 

LynnJuniper

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2007, 12:49:11 pm »
"Maybe the Team needs to work on its image, but so to does the community need to cut it some slack. When people are hanging on every word, ready to dissect it and apply meaning where none exists, it makes the Team not want to communicate at all, which is almost where we're at right now, and that's not healthy. For whatever fault lies with the Team about its perception within in the Community at this point, equal responsibility lies with the Community for making assumptions, passing rumors and so forth. It's a two-way street. The Team, you remember, is also part of the Community. Mutual respect would go a long way."

Thanks as always for your insightful posting Dorg I think this paragraph stands out , so I repeat it
 

Gulnyr

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2007, 06:12:53 pm »
Quote from: Dorganath
Sometimes the weak guy in the back might get lucky by flicking a rock that ends up in the bad guy's eye.


I remember a chicken that killed one of Milara's sorceresses, maybe a little late for most of us, but still!  A chicken!  If a chicken can do it, so can a character - any character.  You may not get to help the way you expect, but sometimes, just being there at the right time with your beak on straight is what matters.
 

deagle

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2007, 07:26:25 pm »
oooh! a plot quest plot quest...just can't wait....its been so long since i have been on a quest...yip yip HOORAH !!!
 
 Oh buggers...I'll be on a flight that day....oh well, maybe the next one.
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2007, 07:40:02 pm »
yeah, I'll likely have to work during the plot quest...grrr....
 

Polak76

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2007, 08:02:40 pm »
I can't help myself when i see posts like this.  It makes me realise that i'm not missing out on much for leaving.  However i still like to read the forums from time to time for something to do.

Firstly it's extremely irritating when people drag in meanings and dissect words only to hide behind them and rather state what they really think.  At least Lynn had the guts to truely display her feelings and express them accordingly.  Well done Lynn, I'm with you 100%.

As for favoratism, It's rather quite amusing and ironic seeing this topic pop up from it's source.  I've felt like throwing the exact same thing out many times over the past years and even sent L a few PM's in the past, but later I thought to myself...'god, it's only a computer game, how rediculous!'.

Anyway be that as it may, I feel that during any plot quest any person should have the right to alter the world?  Why should only WL's get the opportunity? Half the reason they made it to world leader was due to favoratism in the beginning.  But why shouldn't L choose whomever he wants?  Like Dorg mentioned sometimes the 'weak guy gets lucky'.  

I feel this whole topic conveys how people have lost focus on 'having fun'.  Lets remember that this is a computer game.  I'm sure there are many aspecs in the Real World that could use such attention and scrutiny so lets not waste our time and energy over something so mundane!
 

miltonyorkcastle

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2007, 08:46:06 pm »
I'm afraid I might be sailing away from the topic here, but conviction requires me to say that Layonara is not just a computer game. Layonara is a community. NWN is a computer game, sure, and most of us hang out here to have fun. However, it's not the video game, NWN, that keeps people around. And communities are RL things.

Layonara is a community designed for creative outlet. It is very similar to the theatre community I'm involved with at my university. In both cases, some people pursue inclusion in the community as a hobby- you might even say most people. For others, it's more than a hobby, either bordering on a second profession or actually becoming their livelihood.

My point is, we're not wasting time. It's not mundane unless you consider the creative pursuits of human beings to be mundane. And I'm not even going to start in on that argument.

I do think that a primary focus should be having fun. Fun, however, like most things in life isn't cheap, even if you aren't the one who's paying for it. Many other things should also be taken into account if you want to maintain a community, not just having fun.

I love the theatre, I love a good show and a great set, but I hate painting all the drops and building the platforms. The theatre is fun for me, but it's also work, hate, sweat, boredom, and everything else that applies to the Real World. The same goes for Layo. There is an art here, as all story is art.

Ozy brings up a point that applies to maintaining and growing the community. It isn't mundane, and it isn't a waste of time. It's caring and responsible. (*gasp* I can't believe I just called Ozy caring and responsible. ;-) Okay, maybe I can.)

Finally, while I didn't spend as much time with your characters as others did, I always thought your characters were interesting, well thought-out and fleshed out, and fun to play with. I hope you don't take this post as an insult, but as a different perspective from someone who claims to be an artist and values the art of Layonara, in all its forms.
 

Xirion

Re: An Open Letter to Leanthar
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2007, 08:46:18 pm »
Quote from: deagle
oooh! a plot quest plot quest...just can't wait....its been so long since i have been on a quest...yip yip HOORAH !!!
 
 


hehe... havent ever been on one!