Answering the Questions

[Drizzlin]

I have been asked by a lot of people to please come back over the last year. I am considering it. Recently I even received a txt and call. Thank you for the conversation and kind words. I have been asked to air a few things and this post finally made me do it...
 

http://forums.layonara.com/roleplaying/278422-wl-frustrated-options-offered.html

I know exactly what pimbmendan means. I miss this server and the friends I made here deeply. I miss the effects and consequences someone's actions had, both positive and negative. The ever evolving world of Layonara has always been amazing and kept so many playing coming back throughout the years.

I played from 2003 to 2010. For 7 years I enjoyed Layonara and cherished all the time I put in. Even more importantly I cherish the time others put in to make the world so special. I have the utmost respect and appreciation for the staff and the players. I have always tried to show that respect and appreciation to everyone here through both my in game and out of game actions.

However, it feels like my efforts meant absolutely nothing when it came time for my WL attempt. My WL quest is one of the single most botched things I have ever seen happen by the Staff in 7 years.  

I was failed before ever being given a chance. My WL quest was shelved for almost 2 years and once it eventually started, it then took almost a year to run the quest. It took so long to get the WL quest running, that the people who would have played in it a year prior, were simply no longer active. I couldn't find evil PCs out there anymore, ESPECIALLY dark elves. I had to relay on PCs ranging from levels 7-15 for a WL quest, because that is all we had to work with. Now this is not the staffs fault, nor is it anyone's fault. However this should have been taken into consideration when running a Dark Elf WL quest. Rather than throwing insane amounts of purple instant kills at the low level party. I was told that the level of the party would be taken into consideration.

Few know that I was actually failed at the start of the quest, due to a misunderstanding. I thought we were in a time bubble and not supposed to be active in game. Thank you Dorg for helping handle that situation as a mediator of sorts and making it possible to continue from that point. I however feel I was failed from there. Perception.

Layo staff, you got that one wrong and nothing was ever done to even come close to trying to resolve it. I know it may sound like I'm faulting the failure of the WL, but I am not trying to. I fault the failed attempt to fix the botch.
I also feel the staff has done so many things right, i guess they deserve a free pass on my WL =)

This has torn at me in many ways and I have simply avoided talking about it or coming here to explain. I didn't want to seem ungrateful for the approval and time put into my WL. I knew failure could be an option and I would have loved another shot at the WL quest knowing I could fail. I was just honored to be considered and accepted for the WL. As a player, it meant everything. It represented the 7 years I put into Layonara. Seven years is a long time to put into something.

However, as Pibmanden said, where are the consequences? I fully expect big results from the success of a WL...but absolutely nothing for the failed attempt? The only consequences for my PC's actions during the WL quest are the ooc administrative failed results.

I should have listened to everyone who warned me. So many told me that I would fail my quest because I would run out of time. Even DMs warned me from the start. I should have stayed with the first DM who took my WL and waited my turn behind Jenara. After all I waited almost a year behind Jenara before I found another DM. I knew how Rowana ran her quests and what to expect from them. I had never been on a quest ran by Minerva where I was an actually part of the quest.

Minerva, despite the way this quest was handled and the way I was treated in the end, or should I say not treated...={ I still appreciate all the time and effort you put in. You stepped up to the plate when no one else had time. You tried the best you could and I saw that and appreciated it. I take full responsibility for not having gone on any of your regular quests prior to selecting you to run my WL quest. I learned a lot from that quest, both good and bad. For your time and hard work, thank you.

I never wanted any kind of hand out. I also do not feel entitled at all. I have always felt that my entitlements (if you want to call them that) came in the form of the enjoyment of playing the game with great friends and seeing the results of those actions throughout the world of Layonara. I miss you guys and I am sorry if this offends anyone in anyway. It is how I saw the events unfold.

I miss Layonara, I miss you, and I hope I have not been forgotten.

Thank you,
Geo

a.k.a.
Magus Del'Mar

[Dezza]

There is a tried and true nefarious element ready and waiting now!

[stragen]

If you bring Darlith back out of retirement I'll make sure to log on with Jin Lun Lee.
 
Every villain needs a nemesis.

[geloooo]

Daralith's WLDQ was my character's first major quest and we all worked our butts in our attempts at seeing his goal succeed. We faced mind-raking puzzles, traveled to the Deep and back, fought epic spawns with a party full of not-so-epics, hacked our limbs to escape epic spawns, and so on and so forth. A character even lost its final soul strand in one session. We all failed due to the inevitable time constraint placed upon us, but we faced such an end as we fought a swarm of Legendary Dire Wolves and Legendary Dire Bears, but we were mauled regardless.

The directive for the WLDQ was simple but was made complex due to the hurdles thrown at us: Do a task for the High Priests of the Dark Mother and the Prince of Hate and have Daralith affirmed into their ranks. After that, he can then build his temple on the surface. But somehow we were beset by numerous hurdles that often ate more of our time. I understand that a WLDQ is supposed to be extremely hard but I begin to wonder if the circumstances we faced were too extreme.

I'm not saying that the DM/s that conducted the WLDQ were insufficient since I'm not really that knowledgeable on how these things are run as per their protocols and I've yet to see their points of view. But I'm just concerned if we were truly given a fairly reachable WLDQ and not some ridiculous race through the Deep and back. Our party was mediocre in terms of mechanical levels, but was that a factor to our failure? Did we not put enough effort into solving the hurdles given to us?

Perhaps if Daralith prayed harder to the Prince of Hate, would it have turned the tide against those that stood in our way?

In any case, I agree that what happened in the WLDQ wasn't advertised as much to the public. But rather the malicious deeds we committed were simply dusted away. Somehow I still think that Daralith needs the credit for the deeds he's done regardless of his failure.

He is Magus Daralith Del'Mar, Accomplished Necromancer and Priest of the Prince of Hate! He who burned the Forest of Fog, ravaged the feeble Hlint Militia, etc. But instead we just got a headline regarding the burning of the Forest of Fog.

Don't mind my rambling, I'm just expressing my sadness in seeing a good role-player like Drizzlin leave the server. (Can I still convince you to come back and join our grand scheme?) Please do come back, and you can re-apply for a WLDQ again! We'll be helping you get there provided you sign Ni'haer's contract and agree to his terms and conditions, oh and don't forget to sign in blood. (That makes the contract binding)

[Lynn1020]

Miss talking to you!

Not everyone can play an evil pc and have it come off realistic.   I have to say that the rp between Daralith & Amanda was some of the best, most intense that I experienced during my time on Layo.  Both of your characters had an lasting affect and help make Amanda into who she was.  

I always enjoyed rping with you..... Even if Malkor would leave me wanting to pull my hair out and I freak out over spiders more now than I ever did.

I wish you nothing but the best in what ever you decide.

[Hellblazer]

A character even lost its final soul strand in one session.

*looks back at the last grave left by his poor old Brian (njord)*

I had a lot of fun playing him. Had some incredible rps with him. Some lasting in the 6-9 hours straight *tips his hat to Carillon*. I had the luck of being asked by Drizzlin to join his wldq and had a lot of fun talking with him and geloo about it and trying to figure out some stuff. Unfortunaly I have to agree that the odds were truly set on us to fail. Rolls that we made listed foes that we would see and face, but once in game we were faced with hordes of legendary dire bears and legendary dire wolves. that was clearly not what we were told we saw, and clearly not what was in the thought of "levels of the pcs will be taken in consideration" which led to my char perming. At least he permed doing something that would have been epic, small consolation. I mean by the numbers that we faced, and groups that we would have had to go through to reach the goal, I think that even a party of level 40 would have had no chance in this. So how was a group of level 7-20 be able to?

In anycase, things are done, the team has done many great things, and I don't think that we should linger on one not so great thing.

I wish to see you again in game mate, you were always fun to play with and talk to. So take care and in the hopes to see you again.

[EdTheKet]

I was failed before ever being given a chance.

I dispute this statement and very much so.
Your WLDQ outline was reviewed like any other was by Leanthar, Harlas, and myself. Success and failure criteria were identified up front as were story arcs and side arcs that could lead you from the final objective to be completed.

My WL quest was shelved for almost 2 years and once it eventually started, it then took almost a year to run the quest.

It wasn't shelved, you could have switched GMs at any time during those two years.
In addition, the almost running of a year was due to personal reasons, commitments and other priorities dealing with your RL situation. This is clearly shown in the scheduling thread, you could start early Nov 2008, then you suggest to start after Christmas and a day before it starts you cancel. Then it takes another few weeks for you to get another date and when the day arrives you forget.

So saying it took almost a year a laying blame squarely at the team's feat is not an accurate representation of the events, nor is it fair.

Sure, stuff comes up in RL, it's a fact of life, but then to place blame that it was shelved and took so long to run and not even mention that was partly because of your RL events is not fair, appropriate or respectful.

However this should have been taken into consideration when running a Dark Elf WL quest. Rather than throwing insane amounts of purple instant kills at the low level party. I was told that the level of the party would be taken into consideration.

And it was. Here's a thought: did you ever consider you were on the wrong track
?

I PMed you after your time ran out that even if you had had an additional 130 minutes you would never have been able to finish due to the amount of things that were still left to complete the final objective of the WLDQ. You did not come back to me to even ask for an explanation or more insight into this, Minerva offered you the same, and I also contacted you through IRC with the same message, but no reply back from you.

Few know that I was actually failed at the start of the quest, due to a misunderstanding. I thought we were in a time bubble and not supposed to be active in game. Thank you Dorg for helping handle that situation as a mediator of sorts and making it possible to continue from that point. I however feel I was failed from there. Perception.

Nonsense, you weren't failed at the start. If we wanted to fail you at the start we would never have approved you for an attempt and spared us the time of planning and setting it up. Misunderstandings don't fail people, especially if they are resolved like you say.

Layo staff, you got that one wrong and nothing was ever done to even come close to trying to resolve it. I know it may sound like I'm faulting the failure of the WL, but I am not trying to. I fault the failed attempt to fix the botch.

As mentioned above, I disagree. As for nothing was done to resolve it, both Minerva and I offered to explain, give you a synopsis of the quest to help you learn where you could have done things differently (for those with access to the forums of Daralith's WLDQ, it's here so you can confirm I'm not making this up), you did not want to have this.

Part of a WLDQ is figuring out the main problem/goal of the plot in  time to stand a chance to solve it. You did not and used up a lot of time with other things trying to figure this out and had more than a third of the road to go in order to reach successful completion.

You then kind of left the server, did not re-apply two months later to give it another shot so we left it at that.

We've always had a nice and cordial interaction, Drizzlin, but I cannot let the accusations above stand unchallenged.

[Xaltotun]

It is interesting how two people can read a thing and get two different opinions from the same text.

I read Drizzlin's post twice, and what I see is a lot of bitterness about a failed WLDQ event with it's associated casting about for blame and not being able to pinpoint the cause(s). What I also find is that he writes at the end thoughtfully and in my opinion, respectfully, about the team and the people who ran it for him. So in balance, I don't really see a need to defend his vague remonstrations, but instead should be warmed by the last 4 paragraphs where he does thank everyone involved (and could I respectfully suggest that as a failed WL attempter, he could be allowed this small outburst?).

Daralith's WLDQ was my character's first major quest as well (thanks geloooo) and I found it extraordinarily challenging and faced opposition, especially on the final(?) episode where everyone got killed except my character who was lucky enough to get away.

The series of games were extremely evil (so thanks MUST go to the gms and Drizzlin) and left me feel seedy at times they were so dark. The combats were very difficult and a lot of times I felt out of my depth, but the the thread of evilness that pervaded them was amazing. It is a shame that the larger membership is less aware of this than they are and I for one would like to see the Magus being recognised for orchestrating such evil.

I really would like to see him come back and go for your WL again, Drizzliln, and if you do, you can sign me up...even though Ni'haer and duchess were really annoyed at him for his failure and making us look bad

Well, they ARE all evil, after all....

[Rowana]

Hey all,  
 
 Since there seems to be some large scale misconceptions about how this was handled I'd like to speak up about some facts that seem to be overlooked. I was involved with the running of this WLDQ along side Minerva. I did far less work on it then she did. The concept, the puzzles, the encounter work, all her. She did a marvelous job on it, I don't mind saying. It is a pretty big shame that the players didn't get to see half of what she had designed especially for them.  
 
 Something seems to be an unknown and somewhat overlooked. I hear claims that the WLDQ wasn't getting much air time on the forums and stuff. There was some posting (found here, and here) that Minerva put up because the deeds the group committed left evidence (and I think some of the NPCs involved as well). I know there's more somewhere but it didn't come immediately to me. Beyond that, the Evil team went through great pains not to be discovered in their work. Without metagaming and force emoting on the GM's part there wasn't a lot for her to make public (I point to Ed's post for reasons for that). I believe there were a couple of other things that went on in the forums and I know for a fact there was a “Good team” group that was in pursuit of Daralith's group. Due to the way things happened, schedule wise, with Daralith's group with all the cancels and such, the “Good team” was consistently ahead of Daralith's group and quite frankly should have been allowed to catch them but Minerva, sympathetic to Drizz's personal situation, held them back to give him a chance since RL seemed to be such a pill for him at that time. I wouldn't have been so nice. I would have let the other team solve the quest (probably).  

 I'm not revealing who that other team was, it may be pertinent if Drizzlin decides to come back around and would like to take a second stab at WL. They very wisely kept themselves just as secretive as Daralith's group. They were very careful and just seemed to have tons more time then Daralith's team had to work together.  
 
 Anyway, it shouldn't be overlooked that during the quest itself, Daralith's team went through great pains to keep themselves from being detected and that is a large contributor to why over reaching effects didn't seem to hit the forums. I'll tell you this, if Daralith had succeeded, he'd probably have been the world's most notorious Evil WL, and there would have been few places he'd have been able to go (above or below the surface) where people wouldn't have wanted him dead. Some WLDQs are that way. Sometimes the secrets don't come out until it's all way too late for it to be stopped!

 The details are for Drizzlin and his team alone. The above probably more then should have been said already but I couldn't help but bring up this point for the rebuttal of accusations and clarification to the rest of the community who seem to have a lot of questions regarding how all this occurred.

~row

[jrizz]

Bring him back. He is missed.

[Drizzlin]

Ed,

I have way to much respect for you to pick apart your post in the manner you did mine. I have watched you "battle" many a people on forums and I read quoted after quoted posts with you and others where you have told them in is not fair to cut and paste the parts you want from a post. By knit picking apart individual sentences, you loose the entire meaning of the post.

I am not bitter. If you were sitting beside me listening to me tell you these events, you would not think me bitter. You would think me disappointed and know me to be sad if anything. Never bitter.

I apologize in the post my true feelings are lost in translation.

I am not blaming anyone for how long it took to run my quest, those are just the facts. Minerva had to cancel, the players involved had to cancel, during the 6 weeks i was gone, I went to divorce court in another state where I used to live and my ex-wife actually tried to frame me for a crime. When I showed up in the state, they arrested me without a warrant. I got falsely accused and locked up in jail. My ex-wife actually had the state saying, that due to my military training as a spy (LOL i was a dang code copier) that I was a flight risk and the attorney actually said "he will go what is called dark and vanish". I spent over 200k in legal fees to end up with her crying, admitting she lied because she wanted to ruin my life. I was stuck for six weeks throughout all of this. My grandmother had a stroke a few days before one of the quest. Again, not the teams fault, nor am I blaming them. It is NO one individuals fault the quest took as long as it did to get going once Minerva took over. It is just the road I had to walk to get there, that we all walked.

I apologize if it sounds like I am pointing fingers for blame. You are missing my intentions. I was just trying to explain the over all frustrations involved with the WLCDQ. Which again was the original meaning of the post, "Answering the Questions".


There were many canceled quests. Even Minerva had a virus and had to cancel the night of a quest. There were times in game where Minerva had to take long breaks. All of this I was told I would be given extra time and it would not be held against me. When we failed, I still had 3 hours or so, plus the undetermined time I was going to be given credit for. When I was pmed by you Ed, I respected you too much to even argue. I asked about the extended time that was given to other WL quests and quickly given an excuse why their time is justified and mine would not have been.  I was beyond disappointed that I, as a player am held strictly to a time frame of 1500mins, where the DMs are not. A player must be quick with responses, they must keep the quest going and watch the clock. A DM can take all the time they need to get things together and are not held accountable. In most cases, it seemed like the long delays would be taken into account. It wasn't for me.

Minerva did and AMAZING job with the plot, the npcs and the story. She simply just took way to long on the actual quests to type and respond. I literally would sit there pulling my hair out going, "i'm on a time schedule here"! hehe. The ONLY fault I could ever say about Minerva's quests are that she takes her time and her quests can run long and a bit slow. On a normal quest, that is fine and dandy. On a quest with a scheduled time, that is not good. BTW, I am NOT saying I could do a better job!

With the time she takes, her quests are amazing and full of plot, story, and great RP. You can tell she puts great thought and effort into her quests. Minerva's quests are filled all of the key ingredients for making a quest unforgettable. Unfortunately for me, my quest had a time limit. I honestly felt with the long delays and the time it took to run a single event, I would be given extended time if needed. I was wrong.

Correct me if I am wrong, but time-limits were intended to make sure quests didn't run on forever. Exceptions were made for other WLs to run past their time. I know people told me that those WLs were so close. That those WLs put so much time into it. Those WLs had reasons. I don't understand how my reasons were any different?

My WL quest was shelved and in holding by Rowana because Jenara's took so long to get running. At least that is what I was told. I wanted to pick other DMs, bu I was familiar with Rowana's style of DMing and she was my first pick, not to meantion there are not many DMs to choose who can run a WL. Dorg helped point me towards Minerva and she seemed to share my frustration with how long it was taking to get my quest written and started. She seemed motivated to help me. She even spoke to me about how she might take a break from her day to day duties on layo and that there were going to be changes in the time she had. Before any of that, she was going to make sure that my quest finally got going. Those might not have been her exact words, but it was my understanding of our conversations. This is without going into any details of the conversations between Minerva and I that might have been personal.

The only thing I will quote from you Ed is this,

Nonsense, you weren't failed at the start. If we wanted to fail you at the start we would never have approved you for an attempt and spared us the time of planning and setting it up. Misunderstandings don't fail people, especially if they are resolved like you say.

I showed up for an event and was told by Minerva that I was failed due to not being active enough in game while the WL was going on. This is a fact. Sure one can argue the meaning of the word failed and then argue that because Dorg helped get the quest "unfailed" that I didn't ever actually fail. Is that what you are saying ED, or are you not aware that this actually happened? After that, I never felt I was given a chance. Could that have just been me? Sure. In the end communication is only as good as it is received.

You are correct ED, we have always been cordial and I don't understand why you feel you have to "challenge the accusations". I have always respected you. You are one of the main backbones of Layonara.

I can not stress how much I DO appreciate the work and effort from Minerva, especially on my WLCDQ. I loved the quest. It is the single most amazing quest I have been part of. It was frustrating, challenging and a blast! People should not get caught up on the only real gripes i have. One,ho slow each event was ran. Two, a quest of such magnitude just faded way.

I again extend an apology, that if by explaining my frustrations about the quest and that by trying to explain why I have been absence, in some way offends the staff, I am sorry.

Minerva,

You are an amazing storyteller and person. I am thankful for the time i spent on this WL and the time I got to know you during the quest. On a personal note, I respect the time you put into layonara for the players. Thank you for the time and energy you put into my WL. Thank you for stepping up and giving it a go. Please don't be offended in anyway. My intentions are not to offend. If I have and the staff is in such an uproar, and you feel I am out of place with this post, I will take my leave once again. Once and for all.

Ed,

Please don't take this personal, because it is not. I know there was a lot of work in the back ground that I am unaware of and probably always will be. Thank you and all who were involved for your time.

[geloooo]

Thank you for the clarifying statements. I suppose I was blinded by disdain to see things objectively. As for the "Good Team"... They must be destroyed! They tarnished Ni'haer's flawless track record of 'never failing' his employers. D:<

My WLDQ request was recently denied and it was a very humbling experience, but hey, we just need to keep moving forward! Failure isn't really the end, and it makes for great character development. I just realized that with Daralith's failure is rather fitting since he worships Baraeon Ca'Duz, the Great Avenger! Vengeance!

[Dorganath]

Hey man,

You and I have had numerous and long conversations over this, and so I'm not going to re-hash those now.  I almost didn't respond at all, in fact, for that very reason.  For your disappointment over how things went, I do truly understand.  It's probably worth saying also that for every story there are three sides: yours, mine and the truth.

Perception...interpretation...these are the banes of media such as this, and it's no one's fault...it's just something with which we have to cope. That doesn't make the words of you or the Team or anyone else who has commented here any more or less true. It just means that all parties involved will see things from a different angle.

It's sometimes very difficult to convey these things in a text-only medium...tone, intent and other subtleties of communication that can help people tell the difference between and explanation or an airing of one's mind or a full-out rant.  I don't believe the latter in this case, in case you were curious.

There's two things I think I want to address. The first is probably the primary issue that those on the GM side of things have taken with the OOC aftermath of your WLDQ, and that is the assertion of being set up only to fail from the start of the quest.

For an intended 20-hour quest, probably 100 hours (or more) is spent on the GM side of things, between writing, working with Ed for approval of the quest goals and outcomes (this includes Ed and Leanthar's time...as well as anyone else actively involved with such planning), set-up, tear-down, answering PMs and letting the quest evolve as the party makes decisions and takes actions.   Because of this and because we as a team do not take WLDQs lightly, there is absolutely no reason why we would go through all that trouble with the specific intent of failing someone. That's not how we operate, and everyone involved on the GM side has better things to do than to frame someone or set them up for failure or humiliation.

That said, every WLDQ has a path to failure.  Actually, most have multiple paths to failure and a relative few (or one) path to success. It is in fact very true that the odds are (or should be) stacked against a player who undertakes the quest, though it is still within the capability of the player, character and the chosen "team" to help in the endeavor.  The idea is that both player and character grow beyond what has led up to that point in history and become something more. The rewards can be great, but so too can the cost and chance of failure.

By the very fact that we approve you, or anyone else, for a WLDQ means that we are, in fact, giving you the chance to succeed or fail.  If we didn't want you to be a WL, we would never have approved you in the first place. As I said, 100+ person-hours of work is kind of an extreme to take in order to shut you down, humiliate you or otherwise tell you that we don't want you as a WL.  

The second thing I want to address is the issue of time and continuing past the stated 20 hours, and hopefully clarify for everyone what circumstances and decisions come into play. It's worthwhile for the community at large to hear this because there has been this question more than once.  So this next part is not just for you but for everyone reading this thread.

In the past, we had ECDQs, and they were open-ended in terms of time length. CDQs were as well. In fact, I personally ran a 20-hour regular CDQ for someone before we changed.  ECDQs usually came in to be at least 30 hours in length. I was on one that ran more like 60 or 70.  Yes, really.  And while it was not a "go until you pass" sort of situation (meaning, there was still a chance of failure however much time you spent on it...sometimes because you spent too much time and the "bad guys" don't wait for you to thwart them).

When we went to the WL system, part of that was limiting time to 20 hours, in part because we were getting more and more candidates for Epic (what we used to call WLs) and the backlog from 40...50...70+ hour quests was just too great.  Now, the idea was not to cram 30+ hours into 20, but rather to make a shortened, more urgent experience.  The difficulty of the tasks were lowered somewhat to compensate for the added difficulty of accomplishing the tasks in a shorter amount of time.  The achievements were no less "epic" but the scope and depth were often abbreviated.

Now, we as a team know that players aren't perfect.  The very nature of the quest, whether it's an ECDQ or WLDQ, adds another layer of urgency and difficulty in the hearts and minds of players.  Shortening things to a 20-hour mark heightens that perception of urgency.  In the face of that, we don't expect, nor do we plan for, the players to do absolutely everything in a set span of time. We don't plan out every hour from 1 to 20 and expect people to match that exactly (or faster) in order to pass.

There is, however, some things that will take a finite amount of time to accomplish during a quest session. There are things that do take time and which must be handled in a quest session.  On the flip side, there are things that can be managed between quest sessions which do not count against quest time.  This is one big concession we as a team made to allow events to fit into the allotted 20 hours.  Some of the things we used to do in-game are now handled outside of game in IRC or PMs.  WLDQ in-game sessions have become about taking action and dealing with mechanical things while the time between sessions is more for discussion, planning and investigation in some cases.

Anyway, sometimes things take longer than the player or even the GM estimates.  Sometimes it is the indecision of the moment, sometimes it is circumstance, sometimes the players engage NPCs in fifty questions rather than twenty, sometimes session time is mis-used for discussions that could occur elsewhere, sometimes the player goes off on the wrong path or makes the wrong decision, sometimes those helping the WLDQ candidate cause problems, whether intentionally or inadvertently and probably plenty of things I'm not listing.  The point is, we, as a GM team, designed in a little wiggle room to the WLDQ system.

We don't generally advertise this, because we want the 20 hour mark to be front and present in the minds of players.  The quest can and should be completed in that 20 hours, though we're not standing by with a stop watch to cut you off at that exact moment.  Without giving absolute specific numbers, it has been reasonable (and acceptable) for a WLDQ to go 10%...20%...25% past the 20 hour mark.  To my knowledge, a WLDQ has never gone to the 30-hour mark, nor would it likely be approved to do so for anyone.

But what goes into the decision as to whether or not an extension is permitted?  This is probably the number one question on the minds of many, as they have seen WLDQs go over and we have heard the questions "Why was X allowed to go past 20 hours when Y was not?"  Daralith's WLDQ was not the only case, and I will try to explain so that all may understand.

It is, primarily, a judgment call on the part of the GM though usually in consultation with Ed and/or Leanthar. I realize that makes it a somewhat subjective decision, but there are multiple minds deciding and there are reasonable criteria in place for making that decision.

First and foremost, the question that must be answered is: Can the player complete the required tasks and goals in a reasonable amount of time (i.e. one more quest session or some finite amount of time). For example, if the player gets to 20 hours and has about 3 hours worth of work to do, then it's likely the player will be allowed to continue.  If, on the other hand, at 20 hours, the player still has 10 hours of work to do, then it is unlikely that a continuance will be granted. Maybe at 20 hours, the character has fallen down a "rabbit hole" that is too deep to climb out in time.  As I said, GMs do design in failure paths, though the decision to go down one or more of those paths rests in the hands of the player through his or her actions and choices.

In Daralith's case, while I was not personally involved in any stage of planning or running of the quest, it is my understanding that Daralith had more to do than could be completed in a reasonable amount of time.  I don't know what it was that Daralith still needed to accomplish in order to pass, but I trust in the judgment of Minerva and Ed if they determined it was not possible.

Would Daralith have succeeded given more time?  Quite possibly....I might even say probably...depending on how much time.  Does a GM want all the work he or she did for the quest to effectively be lost because of a failure? No, of course not. Do I think the decision was arbitrary or biased? Not in the least.

I have seen, and participated in, several successful ECDQs and WLDQs.  I have run both ECDQs and WLDQs. We have probably had more passes than fails on ECDQs/WLDQs over the years, but that's probably as much a factor of our application process as it is the capability of those for whom the quests are run.  I think three (maybe four) WLDQs that have failed have done so due to time.  I can think of two more (at least) and two ECDQs that failed because the main character permed during the course of the quest (both of which resumed when the Soul Mother gave back a Soul Strand to everyone due to Athus's ECDQ).

It is not without irony that one of the stated reasons for how Daralith's quest ran, a mismatch between player and GM and/or an unfamiliarity with GMing style, was a prime factor in the failure of Minerva's first WLDQ attempt for her character Katrien. That was one of those "nobody's fault" sorts of deals, but it did make things much more difficult for player and GM alike, and even after the WLDQ was taken over by a different GM mid-stream, the damage had been done.

Anyway, nothing I've written above should suggest I'm saying "you're wrong" or that I'm pointing any fingers. There were various contributors to how things turned out. There is no One Reason nor One Cause for the quest's failure.

So, to conclude, I will offer some suggestions, which you may do with as you will.

If you want a detailed, objective and OOC analysis of what led to the failure of the WLDQ, contact Ed and/or Minerva (as offered).  While they may not necessarily reveal all the missed plot points, their information may be helpful in knowing matters of your own approach, which may help if you decide to attempt a WLDQ again.

Second, if you still wish to be a WL, you can attempt it again. Since you more or less disappeared after the WLDQ attempt, my guess is that you would need to come back and be active (and actively evil likely) for at least 2 months before being approved again, but if you do return and become active once more, I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed another attempt.  Naturally, the story and such will be different the second time.

Of course, you could choose not to do either of these things, and that is completely up to you.

[EdTheKet]

Ed,

I have way to much respect for you to pick apart your post in the manner you did mine. I have watched you "battle" many a people on forums and I read quoted after quoted posts with you and others where you have told them in is not fair to cut and paste the parts you want from a post. By knit picking apart individual sentences, you loose the entire meaning of the post.

I am not bitter. If you were sitting beside me listening to me tell you these events, you would not think me bitter. You would think me disappointed and know me to be sad if anything. Never bitter.

I apologize in the post my true feelings are lost in translation.

I am not blaming anyone for how long it took to run my quest, those are just the facts. Minerva had to cancel, the players involved had to cancel, during the 6 weeks i was gone, I went to divorce court in another state where I used to live and my ex-wife actually tried to frame me for a crime. When I showed up in the state, they arrested me without a warrant. I got falsely accused and locked up in jail. My ex-wife actually had the state saying, that due to my military training as a spy (LOL i was a dang code copier) that I was a flight risk and the attorney actually said "he will go what is called dark and vanish". I spent over 200k in legal fees to end up with her crying, admitting she lied because she wanted to ruin my life. I was stuck for six weeks throughout all of this. My grandmother had a stroke a few days before one of the quest. Again, not the teams fault, nor am I blaming them. It is NO one individuals fault the quest took as long as it did to get going once Minerva took over. It is just the road I had to walk to get there, that we all walked.

I apologize if it sounds like I am pointing fingers for blame. You are missing my intentions. I was just trying to explain the over all frustrations involved with the WLCDQ. Which again was the original meaning of the post, "Answering the Questions".


There were many canceled quests. Even Minerva had a virus and had to cancel the night of a quest. There were times in game where Minerva had to take long breaks. All of this I was told I would be given extra time and it would not be held against me. When we failed, I still had 3 hours or so, plus the undetermined time I was going to be given credit for. When I was pmed by you Ed, I respected you too much to even argue. I asked about the extended time that was given to other WL quests and quickly given an excuse why their time is justified and mine would not have been.  I was beyond disappointed that I, as a player am held strictly to a time frame of 1500mins, where the DMs are not. A player must be quick with responses, they must keep the quest going and watch the clock. A DM can take all the time they need to get things together and are not held accountable. In most cases, it seemed like the long delays would be taken into account. It wasn't for me.

Minerva did and AMAZING job with the plot, the npcs and the story. She simply just took way to long on the actual quests to type and respond. I literally would sit there pulling my hair out going, "i'm on a time schedule here"! hehe. The ONLY fault I could ever say about Minerva's quests are that she takes her time and her quests can run long and a bit slow. On a normal quest, that is fine and dandy. On a quest with a scheduled time, that is not good. BTW, I am NOT saying I could do a better job!

With the time she takes, her quests are amazing and full of plot, story, and great RP. You can tell she puts great thought and effort into her quests. Minerva's quests are filled all of the key ingredients for making a quest unforgettable. Unfortunately for me, my quest had a time limit. I honestly felt with the long delays and the time it took to run a single event, I would be given extended time if needed. I was wrong.

Correct me if I am wrong, but time-limits were intended to make sure quests didn't run on forever. Exceptions were made for other WLs to run past their time. I know people told me that those WLs were so close. That those WLs put so much time into it. Those WLs had reasons. I don't understand how my reasons were any different?

My WL quest was shelved and in holding by Rowana because Jenara's took so long to get running. At least that is what I was told. I wanted to pick other DMs, bu I was familiar with Rowana's style of DMing and she was my first pick, not to meantion there are not many DMs to choose who can run a WL. Dorg helped point me towards Minerva and she seemed to share my frustration with how long it was taking to get my quest written and started. She seemed motivated to help me. She even spoke to me about how she might take a break from her day to day duties on layo and that there were going to be changes in the time she had. Before any of that, she was going to make sure that my quest finally got going. Those might not have been her exact words, but it was my understanding of our conversations. This is without going into any details of the conversations between Minerva and I that might have been personal.

The only thing I will quote from you Ed is this,



I showed up for an event and was told by Minerva that I was failed due to not being active enough in game while the WL was going on. This is a fact. Sure one can argue the meaning of the word failed and then argue that because Dorg helped get the quest "unfailed" that I didn't ever actually fail. Is that what you are saying ED, or are you not aware that this actually happened? After that, I never felt I was given a chance. Could that have just been me? Sure. In the end communication is only as good as it is received.

You are correct ED, we have always been cordial and I don't understand why you feel you have to "challenge the accusations". I have always respected you. You are one of the main backbones of Layonara.

I can not stress how much I DO appreciate the work and effort from Minerva, especially on my WLCDQ. I loved the quest. It is the single most amazing quest I have been part of. It was frustrating, challenging and a blast! People should not get caught up on the only real gripes i have. One,ho slow each event was ran. Two, a quest of such magnitude just faded way.

I again extend an apology, that if by explaining my frustrations about the quest and that by trying to explain why I have been absence, in some way offends the staff, I am sorry.

Minerva,

You are an amazing storyteller and person. I am thankful for the time i spent on this WL and the time I got to know you during the quest. On a personal note, I respect the time you put into layonara for the players. Thank you for the time and energy you put into my WL. Thank you for stepping up and giving it a go. Please don't be offended in anyway. My intentions are not to offend. If I have and the staff is in such an uproar, and you feel I am out of place with this post, I will take my leave once again. Once and for all.

Ed,

Please don't take this personal, because it is not. I know there was a lot of work in the back ground that I am unaware of and probably always will be. Thank you and all who were involved for your time.

Thanks for that clarification of your intentions. In retrospect I was rather hard/harsh in my reply, so you have my apologies for that.


Regarding your point about the failing and the discussien you had with Mnerva and then Dorg, I do remember that. but it wasn't at the start I don't think. Hence my statement of being failed at the start being "nonsense".

From my end, we're all good.

[Drizzlin]

Thanks for that clarification of your intentions. In retrospect I was rather hard/harsh in my reply, so you have my apologies for that.


Regarding your point about the failing and the discussien you had with Mnerva and then Dorg, I do remember that. but it wasn't at the start I don't think. Hence my statement of being failed at the start being "nonsense".

From my end, we're all good.

Ditto brother.

Also I do not actually mean "failed from the start". I felt after that incident occurred with the "failing", the road became so rough, we couldn't travel it anymore. This is where and what I meant by failed from the start. That was the perception of me and others on the quest. Maybe we carried that  on our shoulders and it helped lead to the failure. Time was our enemy.

[Drizzlin]

Dorg,

If you are not a politician, you missed your calling. I have always said that about you. You are right about everything you said. I was never told I was going to fail because we were on the wrong path. I was told "you are out of time".

If we were on the wrong path, maybe that should have been said.

I will see how things go before I think about returning. Thanks for your input Dorg & Ed.

[Dorganath]

One thing...

If we were on the wrong path, maybe that should have been said.

This is never disclosed during the quest, for reasons that should be obvious.  As stated above, there are paths of failure, and whether or not a player gets onto and stays on one of them is part of the quest and in the player's control.

If you mean after the fact, then perhaps. I don't know what was said to people who aren't me, but this of course fits into what I said about asking for a post-mortem from Ed and/or Minerva.

For all else.... *thumbs up*  Take tare and take your time. I'm looking forward to whatever  you decide.

[LynnJuniper]

This was an interesting read. Drizz, as much as we've had misunderstandings along the road,  I can fully understand where you're coming from. After failing my WLDQ, I felt my bitterness towards this server hit its peak. Jason and I left. I still regret it on my part, sometimes.

I know what it can feel like to think that you were failed for this reason, or for that. At the time, I still felt as if I was failed because of previous misunderstandings with the staff, and because of a lack of coordination.

I can say this though; I don't think this direction over the forums is going to lead to any sort of the understanding you want.

Dorg's post above me does make true . You're not told when you're on the wrong track because you don't want to be railroaded.

I will say one thing of Drizz's points. I don't think that a failed WLDQ should be completely thrown away. I think there should be some consequence and recognition for the character for even making the attempt. Not nearly as much as if it was succeeded, but there should be some, and perhaps some sort of consequence that could lead to another attempt.

I don't think this would be too much to ask in turn of a year + worth of activity in the world, and the thought and coordination that went into the quest itself.

My 2 long rusted cents.

Also. HAI EVERYBODY

[Rowana]

I will say one thing of Drizz's points. I don't think that a failed WLDQ should be completely thrown away. I think there should be some consequence and recognition for the character for even making the attempt. Not nearly as much as if it was succeeded, but there should be some, and perhaps some sort of consequence that could lead to another attempt.

(Quoted only to come back to the point I wanted to address. Like Dorganath, I'm informing the community not targeting the one poster, just to be clear)

I can't speak to all the quest situations but I know of the two ECDQ/WLDQ plot lines I was involved with resulted in fails by the WL-applicant still continued after. In the case of one, a grace period was allotted in case the player wished to return and make a second attempt at WL (we like to have those plot lines at least somewhat linked in between). There was IC reasoning given to this 'quiet time' for the 'bad guys' side of things, not contrived reasoning but logical things like, the 'bad guys', having gotten X character out of the way, needed to regroup before they could go forth with their diabolical plan... Or any number of realistic reasons that are in place that coincide with OOC needs. The other resolved itself nearly completely in the months following the WL-applicant's failure. A fair number of people, players and characters both, reasoned out where the source of the quest events came from.

As Dorganath said, we put in at least a hundred hours of quest prep/running for these and in some cases more. I know for a fact that of the two I've run on my own, my hours are easily closer to 200 hours of quest time. I took all my meals at my desk, I had to mandate myself afk time despite the hours and hours of work still needing to be done because of my general health/well being and for the sociological/psychological health of my family. I actually hired a babysitter to take care of my kids for a few of the times where I didn't have in house care available readily. Jokes were made between players and I (both applicant and support team) about making things easier on us all by simply moving in to a communal house or simply moving into mine for the duration of the quest series. I share these illustrations to put a little gravity on the situation. We, the GMs, don't care for dropping things just because the WL-applicant failed the quest. In fact, failing is rough on the GM after all the work that was done (though I can't fathom it being as rough as on the WL-app, honestly).

We do stuff with that WLDQ material. Some of us (and probably all of us) write into original submission what the failed quests will result in and usually in those cases the affects last well passed the end of the WL series. We don't necessarily flag it "PlayerX's failed WL material" or even point it out. Sometimes that lasting effect is just a done deal and there's little to do with it other than write about it then ride the rippling waves in the aftermath. My personal opinion, stating something like, "This is left over from Soandso's failed quest," only adds salt to the wound of player in question. Yes it's just a game but then no, it's more than that and we try to be conscientious of those players because it's people's feelings we are dealing with not only some cool material for a game. The effect is that other players may or may not know that the quest material they are working on is the after affects of a Player's failed WLDQ. I've seen this happen with CDQ failures and successes as well. To me, not announcing one way or the other is only slightly different than players knowing or not knowing that a quest they have decided to attend actually has anything to do with The Plot Of The Moment. The difference is only in the reasoning, taking in consideration feelings vs just wanting to give players something they didn't expect.

Anyhow, all that long winded blathering hopefully puts in perspective another aspect of the WLDQ 'situation,' since we are currently in the business of debunking misconceptions. I hope this is helpful to the people out there wondering or who have a vested interest.

~row