Author Topic: Apologies to the community (Read 1003 times)

Rayenoir · « **on:** July 21, 2005, 04:05:00 am »

Tonight, I went with a group of friends to Xantril. My character, Ars Lifbahn, went with Kaizer, Sand, Bruenor, and Tomi, to (I can't spell the name of the place but, it started with a W)'s tomb. My character used invisibility so that we could skip across the continent to this crypt, and we made our way in (and admittedly, an 8th level character in the middle of Xantril flanked by level 15-17 characters is questionable enough, even if they are friends in-game). We spent three and a half hours there fighting through zombies into and out of the dungeon, and in the duration thereof, lost all regard for roleplaying and the rule against camping. I can't speak for the others, and I don't mean to try to lessen the impact, but I feel the reason why this happened was because I was too eager to get into the rich experience and large gold and item rewards of passing in and out of the place, and then got lost in the near-mindless grind of it. We were no longer roleplaying as the server is meant for, we had started to play it as if it were an action server. While I mean no offense to those that enjoy such, that's not what Layonara is about. It was not my intent, but I realize now that had we not been noticed by the GMs doing their jobs, we likely would have returned to the Central and West servers with ill-gotten gains in our characters' pockets and on our character sheets, which is unfair to you people.
I initially thought that they didn't stick closely enough to what is laid out in the forum about giving warnings to begin with...(though I think if they had dropped a hydra on us as it says, we may just have tried to kill it too...) but we had indeed been in for two hours already. Why they didn't stop us at that point, as they had the logs to look over, I do not know. Nevertheless, after observing us for another hour and a half, concluding (most likely rightfully so) that if they didn't step in, we wouldn't stop, their avatars appeared in the dungeon before us to make us see what we really were doing, which was breaking the rules against camping.
Both sides were speechless at first, the GMs from watching how long we had gone on, and we for not having realized all along what we were doing. They suggested a reprimand in the way of removal of the experience we had gained while there, as well as writing this apology to you all and a 3-day ban. I bristled at first at the latter two, as I thought that undoing what we had spent so much time doing by taking back the experience, gold, and items that we'd found was enough of a rebuke, as well as the fact that I feel it went without saying that we wouldn't do such a thing again. But after a bit of discussion (and I apologize again to the GMs who were present, they can identify themselves if they wish to) I understood that I was giving them needless hassle, that what they suggested was not at all a hard response to what had occurred.
The GMs do a really great job to make the Layonara community what it is, and so do all of you. That's why in the end, I agreed to the apology (and I honestly do feel bad that I gave them a hard time about it and the ban). I'm sorry that greed, albeit subconsciously, for experience points and gold and desire to get ahead, overtook the roleplaying which makes this such a good server to play on, and abused the hard work that the people involved have put into it.

See you in three days.

Zhofe · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2005, 08:31:00 am »

Higher levels travelling with lower levels has never really been a problem so far as I have seen ... but sitting in a dungeon for 3 hours, any dungeon, at any level, is not good .... but I'm sure you know that by now.

It takes alot to come here and admit that though ... and a smaller person would have left the server or continued to argue to a full ban ...

You have learned though, and cooperated, and will do the community well because of that.

Ar7 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2005, 10:46:00 am »

Maybe something has to be done to the dungeon in question? I mean level 15-17 characters sitting in a crypt on the east server for hours sounds kind of weird, especially since east was designed for epic characters.

Drizzt · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:23:00 am »

Edited: I decided to not bend over backwards this time... no apology... sorry for disappointing you all. This is for the last time, ridiculous.

Zhofe · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:31:00 am »

These kinds of things happen to the best of us. Don't get too worked up over it, just remember not to do it again.

See you guys when you get back. (I'll keep Mara occupied if you aren't around.

Kwangjnim · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:40:00 am »

Well folks, I too am one of those involved. Ars did pretty much lay out what occurred and there is no excuse for what we did. We all made bad choices there and those who didn't make any choices, they just followed along. Kaizer has been to the entrance before but was unable to get in. With the help of the different classes we were able to get past the guards and make entry into the dungeon. We were all in awe of the amounts of monsters to fight and the experience we received. We took it slow at first and some fell. We used our skills as a team. We cleared the area a couple of times before each of us knew what we had to do. After a couple of runs we became a perfect oiled machine. After a few close calls to dying, some of us had let a few choice word slip out. I believe our intentions to switch from party talk to normal talk was not hide the fact that we were there but not to attract attention of the words we were using. After some time we became less talkative and we weren't saying anything. It appeared that we all knew what was next and everyone knew their job. I know.. even captain obvious would know this is camping at this point, however we contiuned to camp.
Hind sight is 20/20. Some were asking why werent we given a warning.... I believe they did. Bruno and kai were fighting the same two deaders and Bruno lost most of his hit points and kai stepped in to cover him. kai began to loose hp extremly fast too. He turned and ran, after gaining several feet he was struck dead. I was thinking to myself at this point, the sun is almost up and I need sleep. I should just port back to town and sleep but no... I was resurected and I was happy. I only had to wait two minutes to play and earn some more xp and coin.
As my eyes adjusted after the nice white flash of returning I noticed two other people standing next to Kaizer. My heart stopped, I was unable to breathe and my hands became stone objects that I couldn't move with my mind. At that point reality came fast. I knew I/We were doing something wrong. My mind flooded with the posibilities of the retrobution of my acts. Needless to say after a fair and just punishment of a 3 day ban, I feel my actions will in the future will be made with better choices. I know we all have camped from time to time and we all have helped others gain a fast level here and there but, what I have done was go overboard and I realize I am wrong, I do appologize to each and everyone of you... Especially the DM's for all their hard work.

Drizzt · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:48:00 am »

Edited out.

Diamondedge · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2005, 12:53:00 pm »

Welcome to the darkside... BWA HA HA HA HA... Erm, just kidding. *waves* See yah in 3 days, Arse. Hope you can build me another really really good ring.

Edit: Or two!

General_Ski · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2005, 01:55:00 pm »

Ok. Now I know what you got banned for. Should have started with this thread I guess. Well, camping is camping and punishment fits the crime.

SharpieF4i · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2005, 07:45:00 pm »

Well as the last one of the criminals here to apologize, there's not much I can say that hasn't already been said..So with that, I am terribly sorry for breaking some ground rules of the server I do feel that the punishment fits the crime.. Which is why I suggested it for myself in the first place. So umm yea *raises hands and yells* LET THE STONING BEGIN!

P.S. I apologize to everyone involved in that little escapade, which includes the community as a whole and see everyone in three days!

dfiremann · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2005, 08:15:00 pm »

Eh, seems a bit overboard wih he penalties to me, but I am not the one who makes those decisions. Good on ye for playng the game and posting the apology. None needed as far as I'm concerned, ye gained nothing for it. I don't much care about dirty laundry. Integrity cannot be taken, it must be given away.

But I think we all know that the GM team is top shelf, and they will call to account all they spy...

Zhofe · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2005, 08:41:00 pm »

To all of those involved, I do not think that the community thinks of you as criminals, or bad people, or anything like that. If you were, you would have gotten angry, continued to dispute the GMs, and get yourself a full-blown ban.

You did something wrong, and you learned. That is the way of life. I cannot speak for everyone, but I can forgive you.

RomonaBlack · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2005, 10:22:00 pm »

You show all of your true characters and devotion to the world of Layo by your apoligies and willingness to learn from your mistakes. All of you are great RP'ers and great people toplay with. Looking forward to seeing you all in game soon.
-Romona (Remy)

Rhizome · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:38:00 am »

This post and the one in the character forum…
http://www.layonaraonline.com/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=15751&posts=11
…are clearly calling out for some sort of a response. I'll do my best to address your concerns and keep my thoughts reasonable and focussed.
In the character submission thread you write:

[INDENT] Look...guys...this is ridiculous, you say RouterBlade cannot RP CN...I am not talking about me...just RouterBlade, well you state in another thread that all he does is RP his characters CN...now that is hypocritical...its just sad the way you treat people here...you expect them to bend to your every rule and bow down like you are gods...its ridiculous...its a damn game. I mean seriously, I know that your awnser is going to be "Don't like it leave" and I know its your server to do as you will, but I mean come ON what in the nine hells are you people doing here?! I guess I snapped when I got my 3 day ban yesterday, the punishment I think was just to make us look very bad to the whole forums...I don't mean the 3 day ban and the removal of xp...but the public apology...that is just ridiculous...I have been playing here for 9 months...and I have NEVER I repeat NEVER seen a public apology on here...Rhizome, I know you said we shouldn't worry about the community shaming us...but I still believe the public apology was very UNNESSECARY and to just make us loook stupid. It was 5 am...I mean come on I barely had an sleep the night before and it 5 am...I should have opened my mouth then... I could really rant and start a flame fest...but I decided to keep this in the Char Submission forum...just..seriously...settle down.

[/INDENT] Firstly, your argument about RouterBlade role-playing CN doesn't support your position. On the contrary, it supports the denial of his application to play a CN character. The reason for this is simple. Bruenor is CG. Yet, as it is stated in the post you refer to and is supported by your line of argumentation above, he role plays Bruenor as CN. Since this is the case, RouterBlade has established the fact that he is either unable or unwilling to RP his characters according to their alignments. Since CN is a restricted alignment, given as an honor to those who have demonstrated the ability to RP thier character's alignments well, the logic behind the denial seems clear and well founded.
Secondly, I never said you shouldn't worry about the community shaming you. What I did say is that your characters should not see any adverse "in character" reaction from other players and GMs due to the public nature of your camping infraction. Such a thing is considered "meta-gaming" and is a similarly troubling way to play one's character.
Thirdly, in some sense I think you should feel a sense of shame about what your grievious camping actions mean to this community. It seems clear to me that you have no idea the level of effort that goes into making this place work smoothly and fairly for everyone. Just like any other system out there, ours has exploitable elements. When people begin to abuse these "exploits" the whole server suffers. The whole server suffers because it creates tensions and animosities between people who wonder why someone is leveling so fast and they are not. The whole community suffers when players powerlevel because that destabilizes the intended character progression of our world and the balance between players and the areas we have attempted to build for everyone's enjoyment. The whole server suffers because it disrupts the economy or makes crafting levels meaningless. And it disrupts the server because it takes game masters away from their creative endeavors to police player conduct and spend precious time redesigning areas and game systems.
Fourthly, you say that this is just a game and imply in scattered statements that we are out of control regarding our rule enforcement. Rather than directing your aggression towards us, I think perhaps it is a worthy exercise for you to consider why it is that you camped three map areas for experience points for three and a half hours. During that time your group made an active effort to hide your behavior from GMs who may be watching or looking into the server logs by avoiding party chat. To me that demonstrates the sort of out of control behavior you are attributing to us. I mean, it's just a game, right? So why do you feel it necessary to advance your character through ridiculoulsly repetitive and decietful conduct which violates well established server policies? Every detailed element of this world has been designed with a sense of purpose, so you should indeed ask yourself why you are compelled to undermine these purposes instead of working with them or moving on.
The fact that Drizzt and RouterBlade have rescinded their apology to the community is perhaps the most distressing element of all of this. It is distressing from the very simple angle that we all agreed upon a course of action to rectify the exaggerated camping infraction. Now you are both denying this agreement and thus going back on your word. To me this looks far worse than any apology would have appeared in the eyes of your community members, as now your integrity is in question. Not only this, as it is a denial of the initial agreement regarding punishment for your conduct, it demands that another arrangement be made. So, in the interests of fairness and good relations, what sort of reprisals do you feel your transgressive conduct warrants?

It is further distressing from the perspective that you no longer think what you did was wrong. Rescinding your apology now doesn’t change the fact that you dramatically violated the rules and that many people know about it. What it changes is that you are no longer willing to seem apologetic for your behavior. You say you are making a stand. I think we would all prefer to see you make a stand with your community rather than against it.
Respectfully,
Rhizome

Kwangjnim · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2005, 07:03:00 am »

I agree with what Ars is saying .... It wasnt meant to hide from the DM's we all know you can spot us anywhere anytime.
I do have a question. You removed Bruno's apology and then you say that Bruno and Sand took back their apologies.
I read what Sand said and it appears to me that he feels this public apology was alittle unfair. I can't see anywhere in his statements say he is taking it back, yet Bruno's apology was removed. At the moment he may or may not have taken it back. I will find out. However it appears to me that Sand and Bruno attempted to start some new characters and were denied for reasons the team leaders have. My question is: why are the threads to their character submissions linked with the public apologies. We all made our apologies, we stood in front of Hlint
to get stoned at, cursed at and made fun at. It seems everyone knows that we did something wrong. I have another idea... have Orth script a nice little set of those things you have to stick your head and hands in and lock them so we can have the entire town throw tomatoes at us when the pass by. Now if that sounds like im taking back my apology, Im not. I made a mistake and I will stand up and say it. I was wrong at what I did. And you know what, I may make future mistakes and I will deal with them when they happen. No world is perfect.. not even Mistone.
Here is one of my opinions on this. I feel that there should be a few more areas that mixed levels should be able to go to so that all gain xp at the same time. For instance. Kaizer gets 1 xp point for killing a giant in Berhagen, yet I have to go to Central or East server to gain some xp. Now someone told me that the East server was set for Epic characters, yet levels 8 - 19 camped there for 3 and 1/2 hours. I think that we should be appluaded to for our surviving that long. Because i have been there before with a group of higher levels and watched all of us die there and have to respawn back to town with our tails between our legs, but once again we broke the rules and we all did our time for the punishment. Since you bring in their character submissions. I say give them a chance to play the guys they want to and if they do not hold up to rp'ing them properly, why not just delete them. I dont understand why you offer these characters yet you wont allow anyone to play them, or is it we can only play with the one's you want us to play and do the things you want us to do? I mean isn't that a bit too much censorship? Isn't that what makes the different races so diverse? Isn't that what makes this game so fasinating? Why allow drow's? when ever I see a high elf and a drow get next to eachother, all I hear them do is show prejudicies. Which forces other to take sides. Why allow that and not someone who might say something sarcastic. You know like all the high level characters do to the low level characters just before the quests, provided they even acknowledge them being there.

RomonaBlack · « **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2005, 07:25:00 am »

Rhizome,
I for one would have prefered that you keep this between you and Drizzt. You and the rest of the GM's became upset at Bruenor when he post on the public forum ssaying that he created a flame fest not too long ago. What do you think that this is going to do? I mean come on...they apoligized but they are human and aren't perfect. Let it drop for now and if they do it again then take action instead of continuing this forum into a flame fest instead of an apoligy. I wasn't there...I dso not know these guys personally, but honestly you posting this from the character forum to this one is just asking for a flame fest to start.
And, yes, Brue does RP CG from what I've seen. And Sand Krows plays an honorable and great man in-game. We are all entitled to feelings about things that happen in-game. Drizzt was just expressing his feelings. It is not an attack on your world. It is just a game...a game that you have all worked very hard on...but still a game. So when you say that he stands against the community...this is not completely true, because I for one stand with them on some of what they have said and I am probably not alone. I am against camping...they apoligized...let it go.
-Romona
AND please keep conflicts between you all in PM's that is the more professional course of action.

RomonaBlack · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2005, 07:31:00 am »

Completely agree Kaizer...I'm with you guys on this one.
What happened to serving your time and getting the slate whiped clean?

Rayenoir · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2005, 07:38:00 am »

Quote

Kwangjnim - 7/22/2005 10:03 AM

I agree with what Ars is saying .... It wasnt meant to hide from the DM's we all know you can spot us anywhere anytime.

Sorry if this quote doesn't make sense. Kai here is referring to a post that I made then deleted about our reason for switching off party chat to local talk was because some of us had let slip a couple of words that broke the profanity rule and while no one present in the party minded, we didn't want any more of it going on the log. If I remember correctly (it was 5AM, gimme a break..) it was something about the fireball component being bat guano and a comment about "flaming *" that prompted it.

Reventage · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2005, 07:53:00 am »

I’ll try to reply to a few of your concerns.

Quote

Kwangjnim - 7/22/2005 5:03 PM
I do have a question. You removed Bruno's apology and then you say that Bruno and Sand took back their apologies.
I read what Sand said and it appears to me that he feels this public apology was alittle unfair. I can't see anywhere in his statements say he is taking it back, yet Bruno's apology was removed.

Look up in this thread and you can see that Drizzt first posted an apology but then later edited his posts to withdraw them. Also as you state, RouterBlade did post an apology earlier but now it has been deleted by him. No one in the team deleted his post. He deleted it himself, thus leading to the conclusion that he withdrew his apology.

Quote

However it appears to me that Sand and Bruno attempted to start some new characters and were denied for reasons the team leaders have. My question is: why are the threads to their character submissions linked with the public apologies.

True, the character submissions have nothing to do with the current discussion. These same characters were submitted some months ago and got denied due to the GM team feeling that these players most likely would not be able to handle the CN alignment. Now they submitted the characters again and again they were denied.

This had nothing to do with the case at hand, but then Drizzt chose to comment on the apology in the Character Submission thread instead of placing his comments here.

Character Submissions is not the right place to discuss these matters but since Drizzt brought up some points regarding this issue and then withdrew the apology there, the team needed to respond. To keep this conversation in the right forum, Rhizome chose to reply in this thread, linking here what Drizzt said.

Quote

Now someone told me that the East server was set for Epic characters, yet levels 8 - 19 camped there for 3 and 1/2 hours. I think that we should be appluaded to for our surviving that long.

Yes they should be applauded if they for three and a half hours had challenged the whole that is the East server. East server has way over hundred areas and over a dozen dungeons all tailored to give a hard challenge. Had a party of level 8-19 characters successfully walked around Xantril for hours, exploring the challenges the place has to offer, it would be quite a feat. It also would not be camping.

Instead you found your way to the one dungeon that was unbalanced and spent 3,5 hours in those three areas. That is even less glorious than a party that would go around Broken Forest, killing creatures there and then moving one area north to kill the ogres, then heading back to Broken Forest, repeating this for hours and hours, since at least these areas are more balanced.

Dorganath · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2005, 07:54:00 am »

I'm not going to comment on whether or not this punishment for this group was or was not just and appropriate. This was the decision of orth and Rhizome, along with the group involved.

However, regarding the removal of apologies....

Forum members can edit their own posts, and forum members can delete their own posts. Drizzt's (Sand) apology was edited by Drizzt...it says so in the posts. I'm sure somewhere there is a server log to confirm this as well as to say who deleted RouterBlade's apology as well.

I understand that many of you like these characters, and as a player, I too have had some good times playing and RPing with several of them as well. As a player and a GM, I really don't like to see any disciplinary action taken against members of the community. Even when a permanent banning is warranted, it bothers me that things progressed to that point. Maybe some of you think this action is unjust, unfair and/or excessive. It's only natural to stand up for them when your perceptions differ from what is being said here. And that's fine.

But please...I don't understand why you feel the need to hurl accusations at the GM team about censorship and removing posts. Consider also that there may be more going on here than you as players see.