Family Server?

[Kindo]

So there I was, strolling about Mariner's Hold (former Point Harbor), when I stumbled across a prostitute, who greeted me with the much insinuating phrase: "Hey baby lets slip in to this er' corner fer a little pleasure."
  Click for image
  Ever since I first joined this community and began reading up on all the tons of rules and regulations, it has been made very clear to me that you enforce the claim to be "a family server", not even allowing sexual innuendo in private chats. As sure as I am of this being mainly for legal reasons (in case of someone filing charges or whatever), I still take offense to this prostitute's presence in the module, when my own biography was censored for hinting to the occurance of 'rape' (without describing it in the scene, of course). If you intend to be rock-hard about this family business, you must realize that prostitutes should logically fall on the wrong side of the line. If not, the world is even scarier than I thought. I have already come to terms with the fact that gore and murder is considered alright (if included in biographies, for example) and that hinting to the violation of a woman's body is wrong, but am I also to believe prostitution is all well and good?

[HooD!uM]

maybe you should of walked past her without clikcing on her? *wink*wink*. truly i know what you mean tho. i found it odd have a woman of the night around..i think thats alandrics mother

[D Blaze]

I for one don't mind her presense in the least, she adds a touch of true realism.
She shows exactly what part of town you were standing in (and as a good character, should have left immediately).
Yes this is a family server, but even on Quests, some DMs will create situations that can be suggestive, or detrimental, or even offensive, and require a mature handling.
Innuendos are unavoidable, PCs still find their ways into relationships, and hug, kiss, talk in ways that can only be described as 'intimate', but beyond her sentence, it goes no further than that.
Removing every single, little, itty, bitty speck of realism of the darker side of life for the sake of complete Political Correctness for all ages seems just wrong to me.
What you should be doing is, just shrug it off and look at the rest of this large, amazing, incredible world that is Layonara and enjoy it as a whole.
More than one PC character, as Hood!uM stated by siting the character Alandric, are illegitimate and/or abandoned children to questionable women(but Rape is in a category all it's own, and therefore unacceptable), especially characters designed to be border-lined evil, as such a child can have the life that is needed to make a person of evil, callous tendencies.
Personally, I feel rather saddened when people see 99 great things.....but focus instead on the leftover 1.

Perhaps her conversation should be changed to something a little more vague, but I still feel she should be left in.

[Kindo]

I have been here for about a month, and of course I see all the other wonderful things about this community and Layonara. I think you took my comments and blew them a bit out of proportion. I am not saying that the presence of a prostitute completely ruins any gaming experience for me, nor does it make me want to stop playing. I just find it interesting to see how separate matters are handled when it comes to enforcing the tag "family server". Like I said, I was never in detail describing any rape in my biography, I was merely putting it in words subtle enough for people to realize what happened, but without any graphic detail. Still, that was censored, but a prostitute dropping a comment of slipping into the corner for some "pleasure" is perfectly alright. So is talking at length and detail about slaughter and blood. I must add that I am not personally opposed to the occasional prostitute appearing in games in which they "suit the area", so to speak. Heck, there are several harlots in Baldur's Gate, and Planescape: Torment is filled with them. I am merely taking this up for discussion, seeing how on one hand I am told any sexual innuendo is forbidden (check the official posts, and you'll see how strictly it is phrased), and on the other hand they add a not-so-hidden prostitute to a well-traversed city, saying things like this.
  As for your comments about ignoring her since I'm a good character... Well, I thought it was needless to say that I walked up to her strictly out of character, because I was shocked to find her.

[MJZ]

D Blaze, I think you miss Kindo's point, at least as I perceive it. He's not nitpicking, he's pointing out a contradiction in logic. I myself reacted to the discrepancy between asking a player to remove hinting at sexual abuse in a bio if death and other forms of torture are acceptable, because of the desire to have a family setting; and then having prostitutes in the cities. I didn't see that he had any problem with prostitutes, but with the apparent sex-taboo contradiction.   I think that the ban on RPing sex is clearly there for a reason, my guess would be more to prevent harassment or players feeling uncomfortable or offended than anything else. I also think that because there are several people modding and scripting, and others approving characters or monitoring posts and what have you, there's bound to be contradictions in rules to some extent - after all, they're not the Borg.  

Still, I have to say I'm irritated by the forced removal of the hint at rape - not to get all sociological here but it's the very act of creating a taboo around the word "rape" that makes it so disproportionately common a crime - it's so insulting we pretend it isn't there. I say, if murder and war is appropriate for children, how can a hint at rape not be? Last I checked, war was rape, any conquest of land in history was followed by mass rape of the women there. Heck, if you think about it, half-orcs, half-ogres, and half-giants must be predominately 'rape-races.'

And by the way, life's all about the nitty-gritty, and I am against turning a blind eye to unsavory things or pretending they don't exist - it's a form of ignorance and ignorance is eeevil after all!

[Dorganath]

While neither condemning nor approving of the overall situation...
  The prostitute in Mariner's Hold has been there for a very long time.  As far as I can tell, Mariner's Hold was not changed for V3 (yet), and so we did not "put in" a prostitute recently, but rather it was left in. Most likely it was forgotten.
  Now, to give you a little bit of history, the rules regarding sexual situations and the RP that could surround such situations used to be much, much more open.  In fact, they were left to the better judgement of the community, and for the most part, that spirit was upheld.
  However, as happens all too frequently, a few people abused this trust, and then a few more completely shattered it.  That is the reason for the strong language and the rather hard line we have to take now. For chronological reference, the existance of a prostitute in Mariner's Hold far pre-dates this rule by years.
  Now, I think it's a little unfair to compare a rape, implied or otherwise, to prostitution, but that is not really a discussion that needs to be had here. If seeing this NPC removed or altered is something that is desired, then I suggest making an appropriate post in the Suggestions forums.  If it is in some way an attempt to dispute the decisions made regarding your character's biography, then there is a more appropriate venue for that as well.
  The only other comment I'll make is that we are not outlawing the word "rape" nor pretending it does not exist. I would appreciate if people would stop tossing around accusations and assumptions regarding why we do the things we do.

[MJZ]

Ah yes, that's precisely what I thought, when reading a post beginning "Ok folks, it's time.." that goes on to say RPing sex is now going to be off-limits. It's only logical to me that a community has to cramp down on certain things to address arising problems and issues.

But I hope you haven't taken my words the wrong way - I certainly had no intention of "tossing around accusations" and I certainly made no assumptions either - I did say I thought whatever rules there were, were there for a reason. My last comment on the post was only directed at D-Blaze talking about the darker side of life.

[Kindo]

Dorganath - 3/2/2007  2:18 AM  However, as happens all too frequently, a few people abused this trust, and then a few more completely shattered it.  That is the reason for the strong language and the rather hard line we have to take now. For chronological reference, the existance of a prostitute in Mariner's Hold far pre-dates this rule by years.
  Now, I think it's a little unfair to compare a rape, implied or otherwise, to prostitution, but that is not really a discussion that needs to be had here. If seeing this NPC removed or altered is something that is desired, then I suggest making an appropriate post in the Suggestions forums.  If it is in some way an attempt to dispute the decisions made regarding your character's biography, then there is a more appropriate venue for that as well.
  The only other comment I'll make is that we are not outlawing the word "rape" nor pretending it does not exist.  I would appreciate if people would stop tossing around accusations and assumptions regarding why we do the things we do.
 

 I do neither intend to overrule what (minor) detail was changed in my bio. If it had bothered me, I would have fought it then and there. Nor am I interested in seeing this prostitute removed. All I am doing is pointing out a contradiction, because I find it confusing and misleading. This thread, for instance, holds some very strict regulations. So those things in there are not allowed, but a woman selling sex is allowed. That is all. I am not tossing around wild accusations, nor am I intending to argue and bicker about tiny matters. Clearly, talking about a "wizard's staff" and winking is not allowed, but women selling sex is allowed. At least if it is an NPC doing it. In any case, I am tired. Good night, and I love you... don't get me wrong.

[MJZ]

I see! So it seems that this point was raised with the intention of creating an open dialogue, not having one thing or another changed. I'm the one who went on about the hinted rape, not Kindo, anyways. Well I think that there's no reason why a player can't bring up a question or a point such as this - this is, after all a community. Members should be allowed to have their say and to raise questions - I find this to be a valid one. I would like to know what the updated regulations are as to sexual etiquette then, as a mature player it interests me.

[Leanthar]

This is my thinking. First though, Dorganath is correct. That NPC has been in for at least a year--not entirely sure how long but a long time. It was put in by ME before the rules were changed, at least I think that is when I put the NPC in--one of those foggy things as the days go by heh...

Anyways....

An NPC is just that an NPC, regardless of tag or anything. This particular NPC is moderatley well dressed (well for the type of NPC she is). There is not actual act of sex or rape or any of that other stuff that I do not think should be happening. I don't see the problem really, but yes it is toeing that gray line. But since there is no act, no interaction, no conversation other than a one-liner I don't see the problem.

However, you are correct, it is a family server. It is also an RP server, but yes, family is first--and it should be.

We have deities that press this gray line as well (Xeen for instance). So there are various RP things that will push this border. "Prostitue" is far different than "sex" or "rape" or any of that sort of stuff--at least the words.

We will move the NPC is people feel it should be. It certainly adds nothing to the server (in any way) except to put a spin on Mariner's Hold, to show it is not a forth right city in all locations. So I have no problem removing the NPC. I most certainly do not want to harm/hurt/infringe on families and such, that would be the last thing I want.

It was me trying to find that fine line, without crossing it. Since there is no actual interaction I didn't see the real problem with it.

//Now...My suggestion for you for future input/feedback etc. Is to put it in the proper forum and to phrase your post differently. It most certainly comes across as accusatory and it most certainly comes across as you not feeling that YOU were treated correctly (on your PC submission) due to this NPC in game. You later stated that was not the case, so my only suggestion is that you try to word your postings a little more clearly.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Not meaning to step on toes, but sometimes it gets a little confusing just where that grey line is, considering the events even on some quests...

I can see where the line gets thick and confusing.

For my personal input, I think that the community as a whole is mature enough that even loosening the restrictions to where they were before Azaria and company came in and raised trouble wouldn't really cause problems. Perhaps another Komoda would pop up, but... *Shrugs.*

In the particular case mention, moving the sporting girl back to a further corner might be an idea, but I'd be against deleting her entirely, as she does add (in my opinion) a bit of depth to Mariner's Hold.

[Thak]

Stephen no retrospective finger pointing please.

As far as the grey line goes if you want to call it that is rather simple. The NPC does not carry on "overdoing" it and pushing the limits as a Player might. Personally I feel that there should be NPCs like that to keep the flavour and I don't think the world should be all happy happy joy joy.
Again the aformentioned rules where tighten because of trouble which was a grievance to other players. Maybe in time those get loosened again and we'll see how the community handles it. *shrugs*

[Dorganath]

Stephen_Zuckerman - 3/1/2007  8:19 PM  
  For my personal input, I think that the community as a whole is mature enough that even loosening the restrictions to where they were before Azaria and company came in and raised trouble wouldn't really cause problems. Perhaps another Komoda would pop up, but... *Shrugs.*

 It hardly matters, but that group was not the reason for the current, hard-line rules.

[Acacea]

Something similar came up awhile back, and I will point out again this time for reference that there is a big difference between the forums and in-game. Not too big, everyone knows the big lines that you shouldn't be crossing in-game. But there is a lot more freedom in game because it is character-to-character. You're playing a role and are given moderate freedoms to do so, with a big in-your-face brick wall smack at the end preventing you from going too far. On the forums, everyone is expected to hold to a higher standard of etiquette because it is player-to-player; its not acting, and its public to all players. (You also have a lot of time to think about what you're going to say...sometimes you don't get that in game ...hehe). There are/were some really silly words censored out on the forums for awhile (not sure if that was on purpose or a default setting or what), that were altogether more minor than some of the NWN voicesets. That doesn't mean we should ban all the voicesets--just to keep the forums squeaky clean and use common sense with the characters as well as the hard rules.

Frankly, the prostitute is a prostitute, they exist, there are references to them in game all the time without being crude most of the time, and when people are chilling out and just having a relaxed good time without going to rulesey everyone for the most part is okay. She's not doing anything in front of you, but you know what she's there for. Frankly I could say the same for most Xeenites, right?

Rape also happens (this is not a casual brushoff, just an addressing of the statement) yes, I'm not sure of what specifically was edited or why, as yes obviously most offspring of several monster races are products of rape, but it is still a subject that no one really wants to touch or offend anyone with - it's a shaky line that several people would prefer to err on the side of caution with, particularly on the forums where as I said, there is a higher standard regarding what people should and should not be saying. I don't really blame them too much for that, even if it was a small line that is just stating what happened. In game it is still left mostly to common sense, and I really hope it stays that way...when it gets to the point that everything has to be broken down, it gets a lot harder to enjoy.

I understand that the point was just bringing up a contradiction in logic - I have the clarifying complex myself, but there is a tiny bit more freedom within in-game, and I for one don't really want to see a crackdown. Clerics of Xeen and bards of all races and deities manage to get their points across without being offensive as far as I've seen. As long as they do that and aren't bugging anyone else with it, I would rather save the bringing up of it until it IS a problem, rather than asking why it is not a problem. Too many real problems to wonder why something isn't one, right!

[Kindo]

Acacea - 3/2/2007  3:41 AM [...]   I understand that the point was just bringing up a contradiction in logic - I have the clarifying complex myself, but there is a tiny bit more freedom within in-game, and I for one don't really want to see a crackdown. Clerics of Xeen and bards of all races and deities manage to get their points across without being offensive as far as I've seen. As long as they do that and aren't bugging anyone else with it, I would rather save the bringing up of it until it IS a problem, rather than asking why it is not a problem. Too many real problems to wonder why something isn't one, right!

 Very good points (in your entire post), especially your last two sentences. This goes for others who have replied as well.
  Leanthar, I see your point, and I can only assume the reason behind my initial accusatory tone was because I was too emotional at the time of making the post. I really (really!) meant no offense, or attempted to bash down on the responsible people for the rules set on this server (and in its community). So you have my apologies. I would like to end this with adding that I, personally, do not wish for extremely strict regulations when it comes to role-play or creating characters. I want things to be as open as possible, for artists (we all are!) to do what they want to do, and do it well. This, of course, can lead to irresponsible behaviour and abuse, which I am sure one of the reasons the rules were created in the first place. In a big community like this (like any city, really), not everyone can be on their best behaviour at all times. In any case, I was not out to claim that you were doing anything wrong, or that I felt treated unfairly. I was merely pointing out a contradiction.
  Best regards,
  Kindo

[MJZ]

Well I'm glad to have read everyone's input, it certainly cleared a few things up for me. But Leanthar, I think I took off with something Kindo said, and my comments may be colouring his words in a different light. Well, in any case, thanks to all the replies I see where the situation stands better.

[Stephen_Zuckerman]

Good to see good feelings all around. I love it when things work out like this.

[ShiffDrgnhrt]

Prostitute..... Where?  *wink*

As far as keeping her in Mariner's Hold, I say do it.  It makes sense since pirates and sailors and the like tend need some love when ashore after months at sea, so it adds more realism, and she is only standing there.  But yeah, as for the whole rules on intimate behaviors, I got no problems.  As for rape, just dont talk about it.  Its never pretty...