auctions must stop

[jrizz]

Just as low cutting prices have been requested to stop so should auctions. We as players can do this. Set a price for the item and put it up on a first come first served basis. The other thing we can do is not paprticipate in auctions.

[Filatus]

I'm not sure whether that is really needed. For the most part auctions are held for REALLY rare items. Rare items are difficult to give a standard price. For example, the price for a mineral emerald in auction may vary from 60,000 to 110,000. This usually depends on the amount of emeralds that have been made available in that period, or the number of new near-epic characters.

I'm sure that for the most items fixed prices can be determined. But some items are better sold in an auction. I quite enjoy the bidding actually.

[ZeroVega]

The OOC problem here is when a level 5-10 finds an emerald, he can sell it for 60'000-100'000 gold, which is more than a lot of people of higher levels even have. If you notice the emeralds that are being sold are mostly by low levels, to high levels. Pretty soon a new system will be in place (if it isn't already) that will fix this.
  Besides emeralds, I'm not sure auctions are such a bad thing. Perhaps a council for the Layonara Economy could be established in game... three to five characters and if they spy an auction that they think has gotten out of hand, they can hold a vote to cap the auction price at a certain number. Just a thought... I do see what the problem is though, and I'm trying to offer a solution...
  ZV-

[jrizz]

this aurgument against stopping auctions is the same one used for support of price cutting, it cant be both ways. either you have a system based on supply and demand (which means lower prices for items that many people can make and higher price for items that only a few can make) or you have a fixed system.

By the way I would really like to know what this new system is for CNR that has been mentioned more then a few times. I really hope it is not something like only certain levels have a chance to find things like emeralds, diamonds, and rubys. I have to say that would be the worst choice that could be made.


As it is now the only chance that low to mid levels have to get the things they need is when they get lucky and find one of the rare gems. Without the ability to buy enhancements and enchantments, low to mid levels will have to "hide" in hlint wiating for some high level to come and "escort" them around. The better way to deal with this is not to restrict who can find the rare gems but to put a set price on them. Restricting who can find the rare gems would kill a lot of peoples fun, as well restricting where the rare gems could be found would have the same negavitve affect. Without the lucky time I found an emerald right now my 11th level ranger would have two plain iron swords maybe one stat ring and the lowest level leather armor along with the "plot" items. This would mean that he could hardley make his way far from hlint. Deaths would occur much more often meaning mid level chars would suffer the most as there % chance of a DT goes up but they have no protections. I guess I am rambling now as I really dont know what the changes will be, I guess I am just thinking what would be the worst thing that could happen. So far this has been a great world to play in I am sure it will stay that way. 

[Thak]

@jrizz - You lucky sod. I never found an emerald.
Mining mysteries for a "lottery ticket" is not how it should be. Also only miners (those with adequate strength) can get em.
Secondly. Emeralds are the most rare mineral on all Layo. It is quite unrealistic to find them by chance in the Goblin caves.

Now even without finding emeralds or diamonds, nor crafting, my char has gotten by quite well. So it is not really a matter of that but the management of your coin.

[twidget658]

Thak - 12/24/2005  10:42 AM

Mining mysteries for a "lottery ticket" is not how it should be. Also only miners (those with adequate strength) can get em.

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but I found a mystery mineral on a bugbear on Bear Island and it was an emerald. I also found one on a giant, I believe, and it too was an emerald. I have only found one emerald while mining and that was when I was mining copper for shield amulets at 14th level. So, any mystery mineral can be a "rare" find and mining is not a necessity to find one.

[Thak]

twidget658 - 12/24/2005  12:52 PM
I found a mystery mineral on a bugbear on Bear Island and it was an emerald. I also found one on a giant, I believe, and it too was an emerald.

*jaw drops and gasps for air*

:p

[Gulnyr]

jrizz - 12/24/2005  2:05 PM

I really hope it is not something like only certain levels have a chance to find things like emeralds, diamonds, and rubys.

There's no direct connection between a character's level and the gems that character can find.

As it is now the only chance that low to mid levels have to get the things they need is when they get lucky and find one of the rare gems... Without the ability to buy enhancements and enchantments, low to mid levels will have to "hide" in hlint wiating for some high level to come and "escort" them around.

What exactly are the things they need?  How do you define need, exactly?  It doesn't take an emerald sale to buy a rod for your weapon.  A few thousand coins will take you a long way with smart play and teamwork, and it doesn't take long to get that much money.  My characters have gone without resistances until late mid- to early high-levels.  Jennara, for example, is level 14 and has just recently gotten fire and cold resistances, yet she has been involved in mining silver on Dregar for three or four levels.  You don't need resistances.  She was level 9 when she got her first fire rod for her gloves, and getting that extra bit of damage didn't change where she could go or what she could do by any noticable amount.  You don't need enhancements (but they're very nice to have).  Her mining partner, Berdin, only yesterday finally got iron full plate at level 13.  I guess he hasn't needed it before.  Never did these characters hide in Hlint waiting for an upper-level tank.  They went out and made things happen on their own.  You can get a lot done with smart play and teamwork.

Without the lucky time I found an emerald right now my 11th level ranger would have two plain iron swords maybe one stat ring and the lowest level leather armor along with the "plot" items.

Okay, let's say that's what you would have had.  You're telling me, then, that you couldn't find another 4000gp or so? That's about the price of lion leather armor, and that's pretty good stuff.  You couldn't drop 3000gp for a cold rod I?  It's almost exactly the same thing as a rod II at only 60% of the price.  These are not things that are out of reach of mid-level characters.

If you're involved in any action at all, you will accidentally end up with thousands of coins in no time.  Sure, you won't get everything you want all at once, but that's really not a big deal.  My Dwarf Gulnyr is level 17, wears panther hide armor, used an iron short sword with an electric rod II until level 16 (when he won an auction for an adamantium one), has two +1 stat rings, and STILL has a lowly copper amulet.  Good gear is fun, but you don't need the hottest new gizmo to have a successful character.

[Rayenoir]

You could always go play cards.  Wyatt has a lot of money, and he all but donates it to the people that challenge him... poor guy must be really lonely there in the card emporium.

On a more serious note, I don't think there's anything wrong with the fact that lower level characters are selling emeralds to high-end folks.   We have level restrictions on items here, and there's only so decked-out a person can get at any point in time, and if the high-end folks want emeralds, they can afford them.  Or go searching for them on their own.

and finally, you don't need to be decked out nicely or wait for someone powerful to leave Hlint.  Make groups.  Be social.

[tom bombadill]

maybe instead of a bidding war, you could set a price, make it high even for a rare item. then have a real lottery to see who will get it.

example: exceptional gloves of fury- i thought they sold for sround 20 000 at one time. but since the auctions lets say i feel i can get 30 000 to 40 000 for it. so i post it at 35 000  in compassion for the poorer players. now thats my price. now you can check your bank account stay up all night slaying anything that jingles when it moves, and submit your name in interest of the item. after my alotted time i close the offer and with the dice bag, or the help of a GM if i want to pass on the responsabilty of being the one who chooses. a random roll can be made. this will allow players who may not be extroverts or in any circles of influence to have a chance at the item as well as prevent all but those who have found diamonds and emeralds from manipulating the price so high it is beyond reasonable levels. now of course if i want it to go someone who my Pc knows then i shouldn't ever have to go the forums to sell it, and if i really want one i should be seeking those who may be able to provide one and RP a relationship and wait patiently for one.

[Aragon]

Well, I don't think we need to stop auctions.  Emeralds, diamonds and rubies are now harder to find.  You won't see one on a greenstone deposit.  Already we have seen a reduction in the number of emerald auctions.  Those who say they found on in copper, ect... found them before things were adjusted.  The GM team is aware of the problem and are working to solve issues of low level players getting rich quick.  There is nothing wrong with an auction, there is somethign wrong with undercutting the price.

Have faith the GMs are working on the economy issues.

[FlameStrike]

I can't see anything wrong with auctions either, as long as the item is indeed a rare one or top-grade stuff.

 Now, regarding the 'stuff' characters 'need'... Think about this, isn't it challenging and rewarding to work hard for the items you acquire? I guess so, because if you earned everything easily, the fun and the point of the game would stop making sense, and eventually the gold you amass and spend on items would be sitting in the bank deposit, with not much to be spent on.

If you really need something and it's not that rare, just contact a crafter, i'm sure he/she will be more than happy to craft something for you, even if you have to gather some ingredients yourself. And there sure are many many crafters around to help you out, just check the Tradeskills section of the forum, ask around ingame, post on the forums, or something.

[darkwulf365]

I agree with Gunlyr.  Good gear is nice, and it's not the end of the world if you don't have it.  But not with the total ending of auctions.  Having some sort of regulation over them though, that would be wonderful (even though this was a mistake/misunderstanding of motives, whatever.  See this here.)

Big big caveat:  Daren and Jil fall into the group of the 'haves'...doesn't necessarily mean my opinion would change, but I know the wording of this post would change if the situation was different.  Right now, I can afford to be somewhat more clinical and analytical about all this.  Maybe I'll post again after I submit my next character, just so I can remember what it was like to start over again.

Consider that Daren has found his 3rd emerald already at level 13 (and I consider it a headache).  And to RP that in a responsible, IC way is difficult, the temptation is very great.  A poor ex-farm boy/convict cleric of a peace goddess really has no need for money, but I could have stat rings, armor and weapons already lined up for me until epic by now.  I tried to stay away from that though, because it just doesn't fit his character.

The point of all this is to say that I believe a lot of the onus has to be put on us as the players in this world to do the responsible thing with our money, our crafting, and in basically everything we do here.  Smart RP has to extend to more than just keeping us alive on quests.  All the posts I see regarding trade regulations, and boards of economical concern, make me very glad to see that players are getting involved more and more, and for more than just personal gain but for the good of the world as a whole.

So I'll end this inane babble now, since I've used up far more than my 2 cents.

//edit: Took out a line that made this post even sillier

[jrizz]

So that is it no more rare gems will come out of mining for copper or tin or greenstones. First off has this been broadcast to the community? if not how is it that some people know of it and other dont. It could be that I missed a post on it. 

As for this adjustment, I am not saying it needs to be changed but it is clearly in favor of the "haves". It only negativly affects the "have nots". That is clear and any augments would just be silly you see it goes like this.


You cant find rare gems in the places that low and mid levels can go without a large well rounded party.
High level can go just about anywhere they want on thier own so this adjustment does not affect them.


So the questions are; what is the new structure? is it iron and above for metals? what about gems? When was this put into place?


Just to be clear I am not asking for any changes or saying the chocies made are wrong. I just like to debate I know that these things are not based on right and wrong and that some thing has to be done to adjust the economy. It just seems that all the supported ideas favor the rich and powerful.
1. set (high) prices for common items, with no set prices for rare items.
2. rare gems can not be found in the places that the low and mid leves have easy access to.

[IceDragonDuvessa]

jrizz - 12/24/2005  5:10 PM  High level can go just about anywhere they want on thier own so this adjustment does not affect thembased on right and wrong and that some thing has to be done to adjust the economy. It just seems that all the supported ideas favor the rich and powerful2. rare gems can not be found in the places that the low and mid leves have easy access to.

 My character is level 20 she can't even go to most of dregar without a nice well balanced party.  NO ONE can get to the emerald deposit alone. It is a mythical fabled placed where people ponder trying to find and decide that its too scary to try. I have never once found an Emerald or even a diamond mystery mineral. Bris has far less than 20k to her name and owns no house. There are ways to get money and items without hitting the jack pot and finding an emerald. This is a low magic world. Things like magical enchantments for swords and powerful items should not be expected they should be worked for and coveted.

[Etinfall]

edited:misread

I have never even seen an emerald.

Etinfall

[jrizz]

I fully agree with darkwulf. All of this should be handled by the players checking themselves. I had a rare item once and put it up for auction I was 9th level or so and was offered the world for this item. One person offered over  300K in items and gold for it. It was not within my character to take this. As a matter of fact I went with the person I thought the items would benefit the most, his bid was fourth down on the list. When I had an emerald I did the same thing it did not go to the highest bid it went to the one that made themost sense to my character.
 
I also agree with Ice’s point the only issue I have it that although this is a low magic world everyone has magic enhancements of some sort and they need them. That is that, So we have a low magic world where the characters take along time to gain power and the magic that is available really adds very little(that very little is critical though) and where the monsters are extra tough.Great I love it that way! Although from the amount of characters DT(ing) out it is clear that the balance is a little off, I am sure it will be worked out.

BTW: I never even heard of an emerald deposit. But if that is the case then that should be the only way to get them. Do away with the whole mystery mineral thing. put in deposits for rubys, diamonds, and emeralds and make it very hard to get to (high to epic level only, oh and suround the emerald depist with blood pools) with random events so that a "rare gem collection tactic" cannot be formed and also make the deposits activated only by a DM so that a party wont even find it if a DM is not around to "play" with the party. This would end auctions for these stones, anyone who got to them would want to hold on to them and you would not find many palyers willing to return unless thier need was great.

[Ne'er]

I for one am fine with the mystery mineral system. If the only way to get emeralds was from a deposit (one that I had no idea existed before reading this) then it is possible no one would have emeralds. However, I am all for making them incredibly difficult to find as mystery minerals. For example, make it so that emeralds only show up as mysteries on hard deposits to get to (like ruby or diamond deposits).

I myself have only ever sold one emerald (a descion I sorely regret, as now I realise WHY people were willing to pay so much for them). I did not use an aution to sell it, and I still feel I got a good deal on it.

Anyway, I think that auctions would be useful for selling very difficult objects to obtain, but I think that should be finished products, not raw materials. It gets ridiculous when emeralds sell for more than the things that are made from them.

[ZeroVega]

jrizz - 12/24/2005 5:10 PM So that is it no more rare gems will come out of mining for copper or tin or greenstones. First off has this been broadcast to the community? if not how is it that some people know of it and other dont. It could be that I missed a post on it. 

As for this adjustment, I am not saying it needs to be changed but it is clearly in favor of the "haves". It only negativly affects the "have nots". That is clear and any augments would just be silly you see it goes like this.


You cant find rare gems in the places that low and mid levels can go without a large well rounded party.
High level can go just about anywhere they want on thier own so this adjustment does not affect them.


So the questions are; what is the new structure? is it iron and above for metals? what about gems? When was this put into place?


Just to be clear I am not asking for any changes or saying the chocies made are wrong. I just like to debate I know that these things are not based on right and wrong and that some thing has to be done to adjust the economy. It just seems that all the supported ideas favor the rich and powerful.
1. set (high) prices for common items, with no set prices for rare items.
2. rare gems can not be found in the places that the low and mid leves have easy access to.
 

  First off, I'll update ZeroVega's Rough Pricing Guide later tonight with the price of some raw CNR materials. They'll be my prices and if I get X number of PMs from people that think they need to be raised/lowered, I'll do so.
  Second, the reason some people know about the "system" and some don't. Is because they're GMs or content team members. The new system is simple. It does not favor one person over another, rather it will help to keep the economy in check based on the research and discussions the GM and Content Teams have had. (We've had a lot of input from players and have taken it into account)
  Third, it sounds like you don't want auctions but you do want lower/mid levels to still be able to find and sell the gems, is that correct?
  Fourth, and finally... I do not feel at liberty to say what the system is, I leave that up to Leanthar if he feels like disclosing it. All I can say is it's not some uber conspiracy to keep the low levels down and raise the high levels up even higher.
  Merry Christmas! ZV,

[ZeroVega]

Reading jrizz most recent post I feel it's important for me to point out, that is was infact players who made the economy what it is (I'm a player and I take responsibility too). It was players who mass produced items (namely bows), sold them to pawn shops, and flooded the market with gold, and they were players who first started bidding for items and throwing out large ammounts of gold. There have been complaints from both sides for and against certain things and it has come to the attention of Leanthar and the Team that it's gotten out of hand, thus steps are being taken to correct it...
  In short, players had the power from the beginning, many did not use the power to keep themselves in check, so we're doing it.