Beautiful game engine

[Tori]

Thank you for the replies so far, although it started negatively and showed me an alarming amount of what lonnarin referred to as "Fanatical loyalty" in this community. Being loyal is one thing, but what is shown here shows me there is a huge problem in this community. I'd hate to see behind the scenes here, what I've witnessed scares me a lot. Please feel free to drop me a line if you feel like to vent. I am objective and not biased.

I've been reading the forums for weeks now and the thing on the new game engine got me concerned. The gaming industry is nothing like the entertainment industry. It is much more cut throat and dream shattering.
For every one successful game, there are around fifty that fail. Take account the niche layonara sits in and your chances of success are roughly 1% for any kind of financial success.

As father chaos pointed out, its like re-inventing the wheel. Some companies do not have the resources to create their own engine, so they license from other companies, or use an open source one like the crystal engine. It is a money saving choice and greatly increases your chance for any kind of profit. Even with these choices, your chance of success are still narrow. The consumer is a fickle beast and can turn on you destroying companies, or they lose such amounts of money they are sold to bigger companies and their talent recruited to their own.

What questions I would like answered, which they can be without screaming "Theivery" as an excuse.

Your plans for the new game. Is it pay to play, or the game is free? Do you charge for bandwidth, or do you charge for the game and the play is free?

How will you attract consumers to the new game?

Who are the list of people developing the game?

A list of names and their role. All game companies have this information freely available without fear of "theft"

Are you making your own engine, or modifying one?

What is the current progress of it? 20% done?

Providing details like this will keep people more interested in the progress, instead of statements "We will give you more information when we feel like it"

Thank you all again for participating in this discussion, and no, I do not have any projects I am promoting. I am just a concerned gamer.

Tori

.

[ycleption]

Did anyone else notice the odd coincidence that today's date is 7-7-7?

Yeah, a bagizillion people are getting married today because of that little quirk...

On topic though, I play Layonara because people actually know how to roleplay. The relatively small size of the game means lots of interaction with the DMs, and ample opportunity to interact with friends or foes on a regular basis. I have confidence that the qualities that make layo so cool will transfer to where ever L and the team take the game.
I really don't buy the "larger player base is better" mentality Although the Planeshift game that you mention looks like it could be a lot of fun for a while, I don't think I could ever be really held for long in a game that 400,000 people play. Once games get that big there's just not as much solid interaction and oversight the game administers can have over the players. The few bad apples encountered in any community, become a few barrels. There just tends not to be as much sense of community when people know they can get lost in the crowd of the masses of players. Roleplay tends to suffer as more people join games, as the good RPers tend to shine less brightly in the crowd (thus giving others less chance to learn from them), and the ones who really don't care about solid rp often fall through the cracks.
Just my two cents, based on my somewhat limited experience in various gameworlds.

[Skywatcher]

Well I appologize if I sounded like I was insulting anyone but the FACT of how you sound when you come to a place and suggest that is sub standard and that the people how do like it are doomed to fail is something that should be considered in the discussion.  If I wanted to go tell people who played rugby that their league sucked and they should stop trying and come over to my soccer team because it was much better then I should understand the FACT that it might sound petty to those who still play so what I meant to present was a FACT to be considered and a suggestion that from a profesional and social perspective it might be inapropriate.  Just because it's the internet and everyone can have an opinion doesn't mean every opinion should be posted in every place.

[LynnJuniper]

How will you attract consumers to the new game?

This question interests me really. I was recently in IRC in which someone came in and asked us to 'sell them' Layonara. A few people (some of which working on the team) answered something along the lines of (Forgive me if I get this wrong)

"It wouldn't be morally correct to sell you a place like layonara. You should just try and see how you like it. If we have to sell it to you its probably not the right place for you"

That idealism or loyalty or method of running a game world, be it from NWN or not really isn't going to work when you're purpose will be actually trying to sell the game to a new audience.

I'm sure the people working on the game know how sales work. You have to flaunt, and sell your game to them; Its not going to be like Layonara in the incarnation it is now. People won't come to you, you'll have to get them to come to you by giving them an incentive to do so or sadly it'll flop.

Another concern I've had is not being able to pick and choose who I, or you, or we want here as the type of player anymore. Its not going to be that simple and I'm still very interested in the ways layonara will implement the impossibility of having Joe Shmoe coming into the world with "L0v32l33tH4x" As a character.

I think Tori, despite his time here (or her's) Has brought up some interesting points in a very mature way: I think the initial responses he or she got were uncalled for and like Lonn said, the rabid fanatisism that pushes me (and others?) away rather than bring them closer

[twidget658]

The relatively small size of the game means lots of interaction with the DMs, ...

 
 Not sure about that, I play about everyday and haven't interacted with a GM in weeks. But that is mostly do to a time zone issue and gaps in play times.
 
 A little edit: The GM list is deceiving to newcomers. A lot of the GMs on the list are inactive or gone. I think it should be like the trade skills page and the inactive GMs role off the list after a certain amount of time or if L thinks that they are not holding up to their end of the bargain. To be on that list should be an honor and the GMs that are gone or inactive should be removed so to give credit to whom credit is due.
 
 I like layo because no matter the mood I am in, I can play for hours. If I want to craft and be left alone, it is there. If I want to join in a group (the ones that are open to people that are outside there their normal party), it is there. If I want to RP and talk to others, or even cause a little scuffle, it is there.
 
 As far as pay to play on a layo site...makes little difference for me.

[merlin34baseball]

for the record.... I almost went to the Mystix site a month or so ago to check it out and the SCARY download page kept me away.

so as far as professionalism.... Thumbs down...  It took me to an outside site that looked nothing like there homepage and asked me to download...

Nope...

[Leanthar]

Hi Zergon, I wish you the best of luck on your world. It is a mighty nice thing for you (or anybody) to start a game world for players to come and enjoy (be it an NwN world or some other game engine). In the same vein everybody that has their own world/community has their own rules and that is up to each person (or team) running a world. Along the same line every player (every single one) has their own reasons to play on any given world out there (NwN or not), and they have their own idea and thought process of what makes a world or community good or at least satisfactory enough to play. It is fine that you do not like Layonara and clearly do not like me personally, that is fine, to each their own.
 
 We have known about your world for several weeks and that is okay, everybody that plays NwN is just looking to have fun and escape the pressures of RL in a free game world, some like Layonara, some do not and that is just fine. After doing this for over five years I have seen many worlds start up just like yours. Every person doing this is doing it out of love and the desire of creating a fun and great world with what they desire to see in a community, they are also a hobbiest that loves what they are doing for one reason or another; without exception. Everybody can do what they want and play where they want, that is part of the cool thing about choice but it is also one of the very cool things about NwN and why I think the NwN community exists 5 years after release. Every person is different and every game world is different and every community is different, it comes with the territory of creating and running a gaming community. It is also the reason that there is more than one game world for NwN, people are different and they have their own desires, thoughts, beliefs, rules, systems, players, and world.
 
 I do ask that you do not come to Layonara and advertise your game world or community. We do not do that to other NwN servers or NwN communities and I kindly ask that you do not do that to us (or any NwN community/world) for that matter (not just Layonara). It is an unspoken sort of respect and professional thing in the entire NwN community (not just for/from me or Layonara), even if one does not agree with a server operator or creator (or team). I have no problem with you being at the site or in the game world posting in a respectful sort of way (to the team, individual, Layonara, or any other NwN game world/community out there). But I do ask that you not advertise and that you be respectful. Thank you.
 
 I wish you and your game world the best.
 
 As for Tori, that looks like an interesting game and I wish anybody on the team running or anybody playing it all the fun in the world. Every person playing games (or running a world) is doing it to have fun and the definition of fun or enjoyment is different across the board for all of them. Perhaps this is a good world for them to check out and perhaps it isnt, but just like I stated above, choice is a wonderful thing in life. When something is free and choice is exercised then great things can (and often do) happen. I personally think it is wrong, disrespecful (regardless of what you feel about Layonara or the community) and unprofessinoal for you to advertise on a game world/community site about another game world/community site, that is what a place like MMORPG.com is for (check it out if you havent, it is a fanstastic site). Sites like that are dedicated to trying to support online gaming worlds/communities, not just an individual world/community and it where this sort of posts should go. And yep, the game industry can be a nasty beast that is for sure; I will just leave it at that.
 
 To everybody, please keep this thread respectful. And please do not advertise game worlds on other game world sites as it is the respectful, proper, and professional thing to do in any world/game community.

[LynnJuniper]

Leanthar, that was a good post as far as moderation goes, which is why it receives my thanks. The etiquette you mention is as proper for any forum or game world.

However, it didn't do much to address the questions in the post. I know you've answered some of them in the other thread (Layonara's Future) , so that's there, and I know you made some mention of not being able to answer any more at this time, but I do think some of his questions are both valid and reasonable, and that more than just him are anticipating the answer(s)

(Tori if you're a girl forgive the 'he's)

[Tori]

H
 
 As for Tori, that looks like an interesting game and I wish anybody on the team running or anybody playing it all the fun in the world. Every person playing games (or running a world) is doing it to have fun and the definition of fun or enjoyment is different across the board for all of them. Perhaps this is a good world for them to check out and perhaps it isnt, but just like I stated above, choice is a wonderful thing in life. When something is free and choice is exercised then great things can (and often do) happen. I personally think it is wrong, disrespecful (regardless of what you feel about Layonara or the community) and unprofessinoal for you to advertise on a game world/community site about another game world/community site, that is what a place like MMORPG.com is for (check it out if you havent, it is a fanstastic site). Sites like that are dedicated to trying to support online gaming worlds/communities, not just an individual world/community and it where this sort of posts should go. And yep, the game industry can be a nasty beast that is for sure; I will just leave it at that.
 
 To everybody, please keep this thread respectful. And please do not advertise game worlds on other game world sites as it is the respectful, proper, and professional thing to do in any world/game community.

Thank you for your reply. With respect, it is not advertising for a game world. That was used as an example of the Crystal Engine. The free engine available on the first link. I used that game world, just to show everyone how powerful it is. And as a choice to use for developing a world around. You can make stunning visuals with it, and I was impressed when I heard it was free. The page for the engine shows other projects in development, all with nice graphics.

Again, I reiterate that it is not advertising. If it was I would of said it was, then proceeded to be heckled for it.

With respect, can any of my questions in my post above, be answered in a factual, non biased way? I am very curious in the direction you are headed, with developing  everything yourself.

Thank you for reading again

Tori

P.S: To LynnJuniper, you are forgiven =]

[Leanthar]

"...but I do think some of his questions are both valid and reasonable, and that more than just him are anticipating the answer..."
 
 Yep, they are fair and good. They will not be answered at this time but most will will be in due time. Best I can offer and not what you are looking for but that is all I can offer right now.
 
 As everybody knows we have no income and as such we do all we can in our free time but right now we can not answer the questions that were given. Or I would have.

[LynnJuniper]

That's fair enough , its your world, and Im certain you'll remember people are interested in the answers, so archive these questions =P. Mostly, as I said, Im interested in how you guys plan on getting the word about the new world out there. Your advertising plans. but as you said, answers in due course

[Leanthar]

Actually. I just went back and will give answers where I can but you will not like most of them. Not much I can do about that though.
 
 "...Is your new game engine being paid for by people on the team?..."
 Yes, we are paying for use of the engine but not in the MMO Licensing sort of way. It is a game engine that is fairly well known and has a great licensing scheme that works well for us. We are also paying for various aspects of development, when/where we can. All I can say at this time.
 
 "....Or do you have investors giving you money?...."
 Right now? No.
 
 "....How will you attract consumers to the new game?...."
 I will not get in to this right now.
 
 "....Who are the list of people developing the game?..."
 Look at the Future of Layonara post and they are listed in there.
 
 ".....A list of names and their role. All game companies have this information freely available without fear of "theft"...."
 This will all be talked about at a later time when the game site goes live. For a list of names the Future of Layonara post. Best I can offer right now.
 
 "....Are you making your own engine, or modifying one?..."
 Modifying.
 
 ".....What is the current progress of it? 20% done?...."
 Sorry, I will not state where we are at this time.

[Tori]

 "...Is your new game engine being paid for by people on the team?..."
 Yes, we are paying for use of the engine but not in the MMO Licensing sort of way. It is a game engine that is fairly well known and has a great licensing scheme that works well for us. We are also paying for various aspects of development, when/where we can. All I can say at this time.
 
 "....Or do you have investors giving you money?...."
 Right now? No.
 
 "....How will you attract consumers to the new game?...."
 I will not get in to this right now.
 
 "....Who are the list of people developing the game?..."
 Look at the Future of Layonara post and they are listed in there.
 
 ".....A list of names and their role. All game companies have this information freely available without fear of "theft"...."
 This will all be talked about at a later time when the game site goes live. For a list of names the Future of Layonara post. Best I can offer right now.
 
 "....Are you making your own engine, or modifying one?..."
 Modifying.
 
 ".....What is the current progress of it? 20% done?...."
 Sorry, I will not state where we are at this time.

Thank you for your effort at answering some of the questions, truth be told they are not satisfactory.

In thinking of terms of commercialization, These types of answers will throw any chance of investors. It appears its in secrecy, and misdirection of answers.

Personally I think these are quite simple questions to answer. A mission statement of your product will go along way to attract investors and alleviate jitters among your community. I do hope the engine you have chosen to use is as highly customizable and tweakable as the Crystal engine. Although I fail to see a problem in mentioning which engine you are modifying.

Note, this is a personal view not an attack on you at all, but investors like to see reliability, and stability in a group of people they are investing money into. So far the impression I have gotten, is this could very well be vaporware, or something along the lines of a game in development for over 5 years, only to be a peice of junk.

I look forward to any constructive arguments and posts.

Thank you for reading

Tori

[darkstorme]

@Tori -

Having been part of a startup, I think the current approach is prudent.  The team isn't looking for general investors, progress isn't far enough for general advertising - and nice, legal copyrights may not have been secured on critical parts of the engine modifications/game system.

Since investors are all internal, playing the cards close to the chest seems the best way to go about things.. and when prototyping begins and those copyrights are garnered, I'm sure the screenshots and information will flow.

Also, CrystalSpace3D is a lovely engine.  I've been following its progress.

@the rest of this thread:
I notice one very important difference between Tori's posts and the posts of another individual:

I've been looking for neverwinter nights worlds to play on, and keeping a watch on this one. The world seems very nice and the people good. (...) no I am not a promoter or user of Planeshift

While it may have been a less than totally tactful approach to the thread, this is clearly someone who wishes to be helpful and was interested in Layo for the game possibilities.  He offers a pertinent suggestion given the declared direction of the gameworld.  Perhaps I missed it before the edit, but very few responses seemed ill-inclined towards him, and rightly so.

In contrast:

I have created an nwn world for players to RP in... (...) We have many things layo does not have(...) These posts are for RECRUITING

Postscript: The site linked to is, as mentioned elsewhere, kind of scary.

[Erik K]

Im impressed with how civil this discussion has been, it shows the maturity level of the people on this server.  But one point that Zergon made is that the server has changed.  When i came to Layo, this was a community that welcomed and helped new players grow, both in expierence and in RP.  The way it used to be structured if you wanted to get to know people, all you had to do was sit the benches and you had a good chance to get  to know everone in the community or were pullled into a party, no metagaming, no tells necessary.  Hempstead, by contrast is a rather lonely place to hangout most of the time.
    There were also a lot of comments about the quality of the RP on this server right now and most of it is very justified.  But the RP in Hlint was often fantastic by comparison.  Whether it was crazed people blowing up the trash cans or playing with "pets" on the platform there was always someting odd and or fun going on.  Since the changes, we seem to have fragemented as a community and frankly I miss the old days. To be honest, Im pretty akward in my RP, but I cannot count the times during V2 where I would be stumbling around and someone would take the time to stop and help me out with my RP or character development.  For that I cannot thank those people enough for their patience and consideration.  I wish V3 was the same.    
     The new graphics are fantastic, but I came here for the people and that seems to have slipped away.  Lathander, you did a wonderful job of creating a world for us to play and what ever form the new Layo takes, I wish you nothing but success.  But with that said, I miss the old place and like many others have been searching for a new place to play.

[Zergon]

My intention was not to advertise my server here.. in case anyone is wondering.
My intention here was to simply tell people about me and what I am doing... my projects and the team I have helping me... I cannot just say hi i'm Zerg i have a server bla bla...

I merely wanted to say my piece...  say my good byes and tell people where I went... for those who want to know, but here it seems a bit hard to say my piece without turning the world against me... like free thought doesn't exist here.
not sure if it's always been this way here... but Tori has posted a nice post about how scary this actually is...
And it is...
Scary
I am just stating my views like anyone else... and actually less than anyone else... and I seem to attract many angry eyes...

Accepted.

Sorry for posting My feelings as I guess here i shouldn't have any.
Good luck everyone I enjoyed V2 and RP-ing with all of you that i RP'd with.

[Zergon]

Hi Zergon, I wish you the best of luck on your world. It is a mighty nice thing for you (or anybody) to start a game world for players to come and enjoy (be it an NwN world or some other game engine). In the same vein everybody that has their own world/community has their own rules and that is up to each person (or team) running a world. Along the same line every player (every single one) has their own reasons to play on any given world out there (NwN or not), and they have their own idea and thought process of what makes a world or community good or at least satisfactory enough to play. It is fine that you do not like Layonara and clearly do not like me personally, that is fine, to each their own.

Agreed.

 
 We have known about your world for several weeks and that is okay, everybody that plays NwN is just looking to have fun and escape the pressures of RL in a free game world, some like Layonara, some do not and that is just fine. After doing this for over five years I have seen many worlds start up just like yours. Every person doing this is doing it out of love and the desire of creating a fun and great world with what they desire to see in a community, they are also a hobbiest that loves what they are doing for one reason or another; without exception. Everybody can do what they want and play where they want, that is part of the cool thing about choice but it is also one of the very cool things about NwN and why I think the NwN community exists 5 years after release. Every person is different and every game world is different and every community is different, it comes with the territory of creating and running a gaming community. It is also the reason that there is more than one game world for NwN, people are different and they have their own desires, thoughts, beliefs, rules, systems, players, and world.
 

Since I started Playing NWN and coding and building with the tool set (from release day of the game) I have seen the same... I've hosted many different types of servers from RP to hack and slash, and even social.
I have seen servers come and go. I've seen good and bad... and hosted some of each.

Noticing that your game was going to support linux was a good reason to play your new game. But being that I hate politics of any sort (mind you there needs to be rules, and rules are not what i'm talking about here) I do have issues with the politics here.
Also supporting people in their endeavor to make quality software is my primary passion being a programmer since age 12.
But. I'm an open source guy... paying for playing is not something i'm into... having paid for everquest, Ultima Online (which does have rp if you know the right people and run a guild) and Anarchy Online, and a few other MMO's, it's not something i'm going to do anymore.

NOTE: I am not trying to replace layo.. I am not trying to re-create layo...
I am simply making something for people to enjoy who aren't going to follow into what ever it is that is going to happen here, while offering them the ability to leave their mark in the ever changing module (by building and RP).
It has been stated that layo will go.
Someone has to do it.
I also attempted to join the layo team... but was turned down with red tape.
Now I know why.

 
 I do ask that you do not come to Layonara and advertise your game world or community. We do not do that to other NwN servers or NwN communities and I kindly ask that you do not do that to us (or any NwN community/world) for that matter (not just Layonara). It is an unspoken sort of respect and professional thing in the entire NwN community (not just for/from me or Layonara), even if one does not agree with a server operator or creator (or team). I have no problem with you being at the site or in the game world posting in a respectful sort of way (to the team, individual, Layonara, or any other NwN game world/community out there). But I do ask that you not advertise and that you be respectful. Thank you.

Advertising on your site is not what my intention was as stated above.
I played your game world for about a year and 6 months... I caught up to many of your mid level characters in this time and had no perma deaths...
I played many many endless days of enjoyment in version 2.
I knew everyone on the server both day and night... seriously... every player name and character name.... I've even rp'd with most of them.
I even brought my friends to your server. My girlfriend and one of my best friends.
Now that I have left (many weeks before you knew about my game world) many of the people I knew here wonder where I've gone.
Being that I know people... and that lots of them are going to read this post (just looking at the screen shots) this was the best place to post my "good bye everyone this is where I went" post.

I do feel that Most of the posts that I have done here have been met with much disrespect and lack of real understanding of a) my intentions in my posts; and b) what my post was actually saying.
And I have been flamed many times because of how I come off.

This is understandable as you all can NOT hear me speak but only read words which you will interpret as you see fit... not usually how they were spoken.
Which makes me look harsh or even rash... which I am neither... my words bite, like the snake you never saw coming.
I don't feel I've been disrespectful to any player or dm or even you.
As it stands I have never received any complaint on your server. (other than being misunderstood which happens to me lots.
Though I have many reasons to be angry at a couple of members of your team.

 

 
 I wish you and your game world the best.
 
 As for Tori, that looks like an interesting game and I wish anybody on the team running or anybody playing it all the fun in the world. Every person playing games (or running a world) is doing it to have fun and the definition of fun or enjoyment is different across the board for all of them. Perhaps this is a good world for them to check out and perhaps it isnt, but just like I stated above, choice is a wonderful thing in life. When something is free and choice is exercised then great things can (and often do) happen. I personally think it is wrong, disrespecful (regardless of what you feel about Layonara or the community) and unprofessinoal for you to advertise on a game world/community site about another game world/community site, that is what a place like MMORPG.com is for (check it out if you havent, it is a fanstastic site). Sites like that are dedicated to trying to support online gaming worlds/communities, not just an individual world/community and it where this sort of posts should go. And yep, the game industry can be a nasty beast that is for sure; I will just leave it at that.
 
 To everybody, please keep this thread respectful. And please do not advertise game worlds on other game world sites as it is the respectful, proper, and professional thing to do in any world/game community.

I stated above that I dislike L and his dm's... now to be clear on this...
I don't know L nor any of his DM's...
I just don't like the way they handle things.... they wear their leashes (politics) well and keep you all waiting... that's their choice.
Me not liking that sort of thing... My choice.
Not that they aren't good people. Not that I wouldn't get along with them IRL.
I just don't get along with politics.

My site may look like trash compared to layo's site or even Crystal's site.
My choice of Mega Uploads for my file transfers is because of three places (xdrive, filefront, and filefactory) all denying me free service.
I can not afford high bandwidth servers like L and his team.
My download choice may not be like-able nor easy at times to download from, but it has done the job for the people that it serves and they get my haks virus free and quickly.

L and Crystal both have a TEAM of people who know how to program, and get donations from people... I'm sure they started out similar to me.
I am the ONLY one on my team actively programming (though i do have some others lined up they haven't started yet)
Yes I have area builders... and yes they swamp me with areas.
I also admin / set up / and configure all of my Linux servers... web sites... modules... and mysql databases.
So, before you judge my work... realize that I have done that and programmed what I have in my world in just 3 short months (2 days on the website) and functionality comes before beauty.
I encourage anyone to try and make your own world and you will realize what L and his team have gone through, and what I am going through (being one man) creating something this big (3 servers) on absolutely no budget.
Now try to make your own world from scratch with no one else to help you with anything besides areas and testing.
Now do it in 3 months.
Not easy.

Good luck on your project but for reasons stated above (and reasons you might not wish me to talk of here) I will not be joining your team.

Leanthar I do salute you for your work here with this team... and the happy times they gave me playing. If anyone knows what you've gone through it's me.

[aragwen]

Advertising on your site is not what my intention was as stated above.
 

 
 Dont really understand this, your intention is not to advertise on the Layonara site, but still your signature is advertising your own site.
 
 In my opinion it is bad taste, but then again each to his own. Post on the forums by all means, but as Leanthar have requested please dont advertise other sites on the forums. There are many other places you can do that freely including bioware's site.

[Tori]

Wow. This has got me concerned. Zergon's posts where deleted? Where did they go? Zergon doesn't seem like the person to deleted his own posts, so I am guessing it must of been an admin who did it.

That in itself is a very scary thought. Censorship. Someone posts opposing views and arguments instead of keeping it "civil," it gets deleted

I do not believe in that at all. Keep the bad with the good. I thought we were living in an age of freedom of speech. As long as it remains valid and not about inappropriate subjects, it should be respected

I will leave it at that. I am just sitting here, shocked, shaking my head that this occurs. Has there been other occurances similar to this?

Thank you for reading

Tori

[darkstorme]

To clarify: Zergon deleted his own posts.  It makes it harder to refute what's not there.